S05.E07: Crossed

[JackONeill]

It's amazing what Botox can do.  (Just kidding.)(Seriously, just kidding.)

[Raven1707]

Having thought about it overnight, I absolutely hate Tyreese's plan.  Hostages are always problematic, a drain on manpower and resources and generally prone to unhelpfulness.  Mostly though I hate his plan because Noah must have told them something about the hospital.  When doing a head count of potential allies, Noah specifically said "the wards would help."  The wards, Tyreese.  Where women are held to be raped by the officers willing to tolerate Dawn's rules.  Tyreese wants to go to the hospital, trade for the two females in their group and then leave the rest to their ugly fates?  I'm with Rick: kill them and then kill them some more.  That poor woman in Slabtown committed suicide rather than take another day in that hellhole.  I'm kind of horrified that Daryl would agree to that plan when two of the women in the hospital were taken while in his company.  For all he knows, Beth was put in a ward for her escape attempt.  Would he really walk her out of that place and leave other women behind?

 

In this case, I'm pretty sure "the wards" refers to the people (including Beth and Noah) who are performing services of any kind in payment for their keep, and not an actual room or a particular place inside the hospital. So Beth wasn't put in a ward; she is a ward.

 

 

I never read the comics, but it's symbolic on the show. Rick gave him his hat after Carl had been shot, just as Rick was shot right before the fall. They were both "in the club", so to speak. I know I'm in the minority, but because of that moment I've always loved Carl's hat. To me, it's symbolic of the bond between father and son.

 

I love Carl's hat, too (although it looked much better on Rick).

 

Sarcasm aside, I actually did enjoy these scenes. I know she has forgotten Beth, burn the witch (general fandom response), etc. but I was pleased to get to see Maggie being more like she was in earlier seasons - compassionate but tough. She's been so zonked out lately. I really didn't feel like the scenes took up that much airtime either.

 

I agree. And I have no problem with Maggie not mentioning Beth, given how little dialogue Maggie has had so far this season. I'm also comfortable in accepting that conversations take place between the characters that we do not witness; each episode would be 3 hours long (plus an additional 54 minutes of commercials at the current 70-30 ratio) if they showed everything everyone said and did.

 

Because it's a perfectly normal and rational thing to do, I've been transcribing all of Maggie's dialogue so that I can better evaluate at which moment(s) she could have brought up Beth...

 

As for Father G, I guess my point was I didn't realize he was being held against his will.  Why didn't he just say "Hey gang, gonna take a stroll"?

 

Someone may have already responded to this -- I skimmed a bit, here and there -- but the first thing Carl & Michonne did after Rick & the others left for Atlanta was to barricade the church's front doors with a repurposed pew.

[JBody]

I didn't mean to come off as snarking on you. I was kind of replying to all the comments on that scene, some of which were along the lines of 'why is this scene here? Was it intended as filler?' I was basically trying to say that I thought the writers did have an intent for the scene beyond filler, even if it didn't come across very well. I knew you knew it wasn't really 10 minutes--It would have been better for me to have said it didn't feel like 10 to me. I truly hope you don't think I was trying to be rude to you.

I agree 100% that it would have been much more powerful had Maggie mentioned that she's gone through as much or worse than Abe and she was being productive instead of crouching by the road like a whiny baby. Was this the scene where she said he wasn't the only one who list the hope, and that now 'this' was all they ever have to look forward to, or am I combining 2 scenes in my head? I do remember thinking as I watched her silently struggling with the ladder that this was her proving a point to Abe that he wasn't likely to get.

I kind of have this feeling that they're going somewhere with Maggie's silence, about Beth and in general, that they're intentionally having her bottle everything up to blow later or something. At least it might explain how the character's been acting, but I'm not sure if I trust them to do it well...

 

Ack!  No, no, no, I didn't think anything of the sort, it's just your comment got me thinking about that scene and why it seemed to go on a few beats too long (imo) and I must put it down to the lack of dialogue.  Also agree that it's all leading somewhere and poor Maggs is gonna have some major emotional meltdown soon.

 

RE. the off-topic discussion of the Gov: back on TWoP there was a general consensus that they showed him to be too crazy too soon and I wholeheartedly agreed with that, because it dropped any real suspense and distorted the reactions of both Michonne and Andrea.  It was only through the saving grace of the talent of David Morrisey that the character didn't devolve into something beyond ridiculous.

 

Aaaaaand back to this episode (sort of): I knew about the hospital arc quite some time ago, being a big ol' spoiler hound, and what I had envisioned playing out was, in my mind, far scarier than what I am seeing now.  I honestly thought they were some sort of super organized New World Order people with perhaps the backing of the remnants of the US government, you know, a full on dystopian scenario.  Instead we have their supposed leader Dawn thinking they're all going to be SAVED?  While it is true that her idea of them all holding out long enough to be rescued 2 years into the ZA is its own brand of craziness, it just seems implausible that she, or anyone with a functioning non-zombie brain, would think that.  I mean really, come on.  Even Judith knows there's no one left to rescue them.  Where are the radios?  How is it that they know less than nothing about the odds of being saved when they were almost right next to the evacuation centre being napalmed, amongst other big freaking clues?  SIGH.  Now, if this is just delusional Dawn stringing everybody along, ok, I get that, but it just seems so...  pedestrian.  Maybe that's the point, to have something so mundane contrasted up against the freak ass cannibals, but I'm telling you, I liked my idea better.

[JBody]

Because it's a perfectly normal and rational thing to do, I've been transcribing all of Maggie's dialogue so that I can better evaluate at which moment(s) she could have brought up Beth...

 

That is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do around here, I'd say.  Please let us know the results of your research?

 

Maggie not talking much or having the screen-time where she could talk is 100% a writer's decision so we are left with no choice but to think her silence is intentional, which is the conclusion many of us have come to (and by the way, as previously mentioned, her pillow talk with Glennie in the liberry was pretty much the perfect chance to say, "I hope the blond beacon of hope is ok.").

[Bruinsfan]

"If Beth falls in the hospital and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Probably a sound very much like her getting slapped by Dawn yet again, so even if anyone were around they'd pay no notice to something so routine.

 

I think the cops are letting Dawn make the rules because she makes rules that they like, which saves them the trouble of having to organize the day-to-day running of the hospital and being the unpopular jerk who occasionally tells them they can't have everything they want.  Dawn's the target of dissatisfaction.  The rest of them just get to do what they want with her permission.  Why rock that boat? 

This sounds right to me. Plus, Dawn seems like the control freak type who may be good with organization and logistics even though she's not a charismatic leader.

[paigow]

Dawn seems like the control freak type who may be good with organization and logistics even though she's not a charismatic leader.

 

Dawn would be equivalent to: A - Dick Cheney B - John Boehner C - Charles Logan (24)

[Raven1707]

That is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do around here, I'd say.  Please let us know the results of your research?

 

Absolutely. If my On Demand service cooperates (it doesn't always), I should get through it this weekend.

[AngelaHunter]

Because it's a perfectly normal and rational thing to do, I've been transcribing all of Maggie's dialogue so

 

Sounds normal to me too and it shouldn't take very long!

[Zanne]

Ah that reminds me, WHY was that old guy there? What does he bring to the table?

 

 

He's likely there to keep the power imbalance in place. If your work force equals or outnumbers the ruling group, and is comprised mainly of young, fit people, then there won't be a ruling group for long. However, if you purposefully seed your work force with weak people, then they won't be able to get together the manpower required to overthrow their oppressors. We've mostly seen young women, at least one young (frail) man, and at least one old man in the "working" class, so far.

[Ohwell]

There was a lot of wasted time, but I did learn that anytime I need to bribe someone, all it takes is a few strawberries.

First thing I thought about when Beth had them in her grubby little hands was "Couldn't she find a napkin or piece of paper to put them in?"  But yeah, I know he appreciated the strawberries no matter how he got them.

[JBody]

He's likely there to keep the power imbalance in place. If your work force equals or outnumbers the ruling group, and is comprised mainly of young, fit people, then there won't be a ruling group for long. However, if you purposefully seed your work force with weak people, then they won't be able to get together the manpower required to overthrow their oppressors. We've mostly seen young women, at least one young (frail) man, and at least one old man in the "working" class, so far.

This is a good point. Noah did say they killed his Dad because he was likely perceived by them as a threat.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

First thing I thought about when Beth had them in her grubby little hands was "Couldn't she find a napkin or piece of paper to put them in?"

 

This made me LOL very hard. Very hard indeed.

 

In this case, I'm pretty sure "the wards" refers to the people (including Beth and Noah) who are performing services of any kind in payment for their keep

 

But Dawn told Beth, "The wards keep my officers happy."  I took that to mean people (mostly women I assume) IN the wards keep the officers sexually happy.

Edited November 26, 2014 by AngelaHunter

[Watcher0363]

This made me LOL very hard. Very hard indeed.

 

But Dawn told Beth, "The wards keep my officers happy."  I took that to mean people (mostly women I assume) IN the wards keep the officers sexually happy.

Well, if I was a guy in Rick's group and I came upon the Grady people. With their clean clothes, clean beds-- hell just a bed, food on plates. And all I had to do to get all of this is to become a little rapey. Damn just another moral dilemma in the ZA, one which may break my moral compass.

[editorgrrl]

The wards are people—not rooms. "A person or thing under guard, protection, or surveillance."

[nodorothyparker]

Because my mind has been wandering while I've been making pies for tomorrow, I keep coming back to the math of the hospital story.  Noah tells Rick that there are 6 guards.  Under Rick's plan they hope to immediately take out 3, leaving 3 to fight when they get into the hospital.  That's when Noah talks about arming Beth and the wards to bring their numbers up to 12 to make it 12 against 3.  There are 5 people in Rick's group.  That means this whole half season has led up to a battle against a mom and pop bad guys operation of 6 people guarding maybe 7 prisoners or wards, hardly the levels of Woodbury or even Terminus.  No wonder this whole thing is feeling so ridiculously overblown.

Edited November 27, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[paigow]

The wards are people—not rooms. "A person or thing under guard, protection, or surveillance."

e.g. Dick Grayson = Ward of Bruce Wayne

[Malaprop cocktail]

e.g. Dick Grayson = Ward of Bruce Wayne

Appropriately played by Burt Ward.

[AngelaHunter]

Yes but, and not to be argumentative, hospital wards are large rooms usually holding a number of patients.

 

hospital ward - block forming a division of a hospital (or a suite of rooms) shared by patients who need a similar kind of care; "they put her in a 4-bed ward"

 

 

I guess it could be either the people or the rooms, but I suppose we'll find out. The people there seem more like indentured servants than wards, but I guess "wards" sounds more benevolent.

[RedheadZombie]

Finally watched the episode.  I wasn't planning on watching it tonight, but I got a desperate text from my little cousin in Hungary - DID THEY KILL OFF DARYL IN WALKING DEAD???  I  got a little nervous.  My initial thoughts:

 

I like Tyreese going on the mission.  I'm sure his plan is to protect his sister, and to help save Carol - someone he bonded with over The Grove.

 

Loved Judith crying as Rick and Tyreese walked away.  She was having no part of Michonne's attempt to comfort her.  She's a guy's kind of girl.  I would have preferred a scene with Carl comforting her, and it would have made a lot more sense than Michonne doing it.  I'm sure Michonne cares for Judith, but she was avoiding her at the prison, and I don't think Judith has bonded to her (yet?).

 

Loved both of Hershel's girls acting as caretakers this episode.  I think he'd be proud.  If Beth survives, hopefully she can become their medical person.  I teared up slightly when Beth told Carol that she was there.  I love how these ladies don't seem to realize they're supposed to be mortal enemies.  I would like to see them save each other.  Then, Beth can hookup with age-appropriate Noah, and Carol can hookup with a fellow gentle soul who learned the hard way - Morgan.  They can remain tight with Daryl, and Daryl can pursue the little spark I sensed while he fretted over Sasha's actions in the church.

 

So happy to see bad-ass Maggie return.   I love Tara with both M & G, and I'd prefer Rosita go than any of the other three.   I felt bad that the Abraham actor had to stay kneeling on the road.  I got the impression he was sitting a death vigil.  It wasn't until he heard signs of life from Eugene that he chose life and reached for the water. 

 

Shocking yet interesting that Daryl backed up Tyreese over Rick.  Very interesting that Rick capitulated.  Tyreese had a valid reason for not liking Rick's plan, and Daryl agreed.  I think if Rick seriously doubted Tyreese's plan, he would have rejected it.

 

Good Lord Father Pee Pants.  I tend to be extremely tolerant of and sympathetic to almost everyone on this show, but he is not cutting it in my eyes.  He stands by - not participating (at all) in the shoring up of the church (his safety!) and all he can do is whine about his steeple.  Gah!  "Are you gonna take the cross too?" (Said in the hideously high-pitched "Bob" voice from Bad Lip Reading.)  My answer was the same as Daryl's - If we need it.  But I was thinking - Shut the fuck up and pitch in - Asshole!  And he kept eyeing Judith when she cried.  He seems to be the Lizzie type - suffocate the baby so she doesn't draw attention.  The final straw was crawling away like a rat and leaving your weapon behind.  Hey, he may need to pry open some more floorboards.

 

I'm nervous about Dawn.  They surely casted an attractive woman for a reason.  She's going to meet with Rick.  I do not want her sympathized, and I DO NOT want her to become Rick's love interest.  I despise her and I despise the female cop for selling out their gender.  I could sympathize with Dawn (slightly) if she was prostituting herself to control the men.  What exactly is Dawn doing to control the female cop?

 

 

[RedheadZombie]

I think the same can be said of Tyreese. I don't think for one second he hesitated in snatching Judith up knowing that it would be that much harder for him to survive. I have a hard time buying that Tyreese wouldn't do everything in his power to protect Judith even if it means killing someone.

 

Not that Tyreese needs Rick's trust but I'm not sure what more Tyreese needs to do. Tyreese already saved/protected Judith to an extent no one else has.

 

Two people kept Judith alive after the prison fell - just two - Tyreese and Carol.  If Tyreese hadn't initially saved Judith, Carol wouldn't have had the opportunity to help protect her.  He also initially kept Mika and Lizzie alive.  No one had it as tough as Tyreese immediately post-prison.  He didn't have the luxury of giving up, shutting down, trying to get drunk, or burning down perfectly good cabins like Beth and Daryl.

 

I don't understand how Tyreese's plan was weak, that it failed, and that everything that goes bad will now be his fault.  He gave reasons for his plan and was backed up by Daryl.  Rick did not veto the plan, and apparently Sasha and Noah supported the plan as well.

 

I don't understand how Rick's idea was brilliant and fool-proof.  It completely relied on getting the jump on a larger and well-armed group, and in a building that only Noah has been in.  It relied on the ability to silently kill in hand to hand combat, and did not allow for a contingency if they were spotted or heard.  We have no idea if Rick's plan would have gone smoothly, and I don't think the show gave me a reason to believe that Rick's plan was better.

 

I don't understand why Tyreese is completely responsible for everything that did and could go wrong.  The episode was loaded with stupid mistakes.  Daryl stupidly argued with Rick to save "Bob".  If Tyreese is responsible for Bob's death, then Daryl is responsible for Sasha being attacked.  Rick stupidly allowed himself to be manipulated by an obvious good cop/bad cop strategy.  He allowed "Bob" to talk and create a false connection.  Rick practically sat down and cried with the guy. Did he forget that Shane was a cop? His well-honed radar was completely off, and that was no different than Tyreese allowing Martin to talk and manipulate him.  Sasha stupidly allowed "Bob" to manipulate her.  It's no mistake that this guy's name happens to be Bob - I have no doubt he overheard a conversation that mentioned Bob's tragic death.  She took off some of his restraints, turned her back on him, and failed to sense his true intent.  If that cop kills someone, it's Sasha's fault.  Michonne stupidly allowed herself to get sucked into FPP's pity party, failed to read his character, and failed to hear him digging up a wooden floor.  To top it off, she actually checked up on him and attempted to comfort him again.

 

I'm sure there are specific reasons why everyone is where they are for the mid-season break.  I don't think Michonne is being marginalized, or that she's the sole person Rick would trust with his kids.  I think Michonne was left behind because they wanted her in scenes with FPP.  She's the only one who's attempted a connection with him.  Tyreese is with Rick's group because he's probably going to die, or watch Sasha die, or both.  I question Noah's involvement.  I think he's trustworthy and I know he's the only one familiar with the hospital, but he's new to having to fight.  He stupidly allowed Daryl and Carol a fighting chance, and even left some of their weapons behind.  It would seem that he's no different than Tyreese in that situation, and couldn't outright kill people not attacking him.

 

Unless Grady has a secret stash of water bottles, I don't understand the constant need for the floors to be mopped.  Boy those Grady cops revel in the adrenaline rush of a sick person.  Running right to the old guy and screaming for a gurney.  What was their incentive in saving an old overweight person in the first place?  He doesn't look like he's up for physical labor or prostitution.

[GreyBunny]

Noah said the kill off those who appear strong, like his father.  They probably thought the old guy would just keep quiet, not cause any trouble, and be useful for light household chores. 

 

So Father Pee-Pants did what Abe's wife did - ran out into the wilds of the ZA due to fear and woefully unprepared, weaponless, and with the added bonus of getting stuck in the foot with a nail.  Way to go, walker bait.  It looked like was a plot device to force him to quickly realize that he needs to toughen up, that Michonne was right, and maybe stick with Rick's group is he's going to survive.  Saves on a lot of the Tyreese-ish wavering.    

 

I question Noah's involvement.  I think he's trustworthy and I know he's the only one familiar with the hospital, but he's new to having to fight.  He stupidly allowed Daryl and Carol a fighting chance, and even left some of their weapons behind.  It would seem that he's no different than Tyreese in that situation, and couldn't outright kill people not attacking him.

 

But he played his role well in using himself as bait, drawing the cops' attention, and pretending he was alone and vulnerable and possibly injured.  That drunken "bonk" off the hood of the car and rolling to the ground cracked me up. 

[Pestilentia]

 

I felt bad that the Abraham actor had to stay kneeling on the road.  I got the impression he was sitting a death vigil.

During the show I mentioned to Mr. Pest that sooner or later Abraham's knees were going to scream so loud he would have to get up. Even the most practiced Geisha in the world can't sit seiza-style all day long!

Edited November 27, 2014 by Pestilentia

[NoWillToResist]

Yes but, and not to be argumentative, hospital wards are large rooms usually holding a number of patients.

 

I assumed they were using 'wards' to refer to people since there are simply so few patients. I think 'wards' as in groups of rooms would make more sense when you are trying to distinguish different areas of an entire hospital; I don't think that's necessary in this case.

 

I felt bad that the Abraham actor had to stay kneeling on the road.  I got the impression he was sitting a death vigil.  It wasn't until he heard signs of life from Eugene that he chose life and reached for the water.

 

Ah, nice catch. Perhaps Abe's catatonic state was less about Eugene's reveal and more about Abe being in shock that he might have murdered a man - who was no threat to him - with his bare hands. Perhaps he was thinking that maybe his wife and kids had a point in running away from him?

 

I don't understand how Tyreese's plan was weak, that it failed, and that everything that goes bad will now be his fault.  He gave reasons for his plan and was backed up by Daryl.  Rick did not veto the plan, and apparently Sasha and Noah supported the plan as well.

 

I don't understand how Rick's idea was brilliant and fool-proof.  It completely relied on getting the jump on a larger and well-armed group, and in a building that only Noah has been in.  It relied on the ability to silently kill in hand to hand combat, and did not allow for a contingency if they were spotted or heard.  We have no idea if Rick's plan would have gone smoothly, and I don't think the show gave me a reason to believe that Rick's plan was better.

 

I understood the worry about being outnumbered but I don't understand why, when they had managed to grab THREE cops, leaving only three cops max at the hospital, they didn't transition to Rick's plan of infiltrating the hospital (or some variation thereof). Tyreese's plan assumes that Dawn will trade assets for her cops. If she doesn't, what then? Heck, once they'd got three cops, why not aim to gather up more? Shoot some more bullets, draw more out of the hospital!

 

Also, at the time they arrived in Atlanta, Dawn would not know who these people were or that they wanted to take people from her. They could have had Sasha and maybe Noah get 'rescued' and then our gang has two more people on the inside to help with the overthrow of (again, maximum) three armed guards.

Edited November 27, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[AngelaHunter]

(FPP)ran out into the wilds of the ZA due to fear and woefully unprepared, weaponless, and with the added bonus of getting stuck in the foot with a nail.

 

He's stated that his god will protect him, which makes me wonder why he spends all his time being scared shitless. Faith, Father PeePants!

[Zahdii]

Regarding Gabriel:

He's stated that his god will protect him, which makes me wonder why he spends all his time being scared shitless. Faith, Father PeePants!

 

Gabriel is the living embodiment of the joke about the man who was trapped in his home during a flood.  He goes on his porch and people just a few yards away tell him they'll form a human chain to help him cross the rapidly rising floodwaters.  The man refuses, telling them he's waiting for God to save him.  The waters rise until he's on the second floor of his home.  A boat comes by and the people in the boat tell him to crawl out the window and they'll take him to safety.  The man refuses, because he's waiting God to save him.  Finally the man has been driven to the highest point of his roof and a helicopter comes by and drops a ladder down to him.  The man still refuses, because he's waiting for his strong faith to be rewarded by being saved by God.  The man drowns and goes to heaven.  St. Peter lets him in with a shake of the head and an eyeroll.  Once inside, the man asks God why he drowned.  God answers, "Well, I sent you good neighbors to help you across the fast running stream.  I sent you a boat.  I even sent you a helicopter.  Why do you think you drowned?"

 

Or maybe Gabriel is the man who prayed daily to win the lottery and save him from his subsistance lifestyle.  He was so busy praying he did very little work at all, so earned very little money.  Finally he died and asked God why he didn't win the lottery.  God thundered, "Why didn't you buy a ticket?"

 

Or Gabriel is a coward who uses his faith to justify his actions, but doesn't have enough self-awareness or courage to understand the truth about himself.

[NurseGiGi]

Where's Obi-wan when you need him to point out the obvious?  Ah, the stupid was strong in this episode!

 

Since there's only supposed to be 3 cops in that place I'm going to be hella upset if cops come pouring out like clowns from a car.

Edited November 28, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[AngelaHunter]

I just can't figure out where FPP thinks he going, with no food, no water, no weapons and for sure not a whisper of fortitude.

[NoWillToResist]

I just can't figure out where FPP thinks he going, with no food, no water, no weapons and for sure not a whisper of fortitude.

 

To Jesus?

[mightysparrow]

I just want to add that Daryl has stepped it up in several situations - like when he and Maggie went to find formula for newborn Judith and after Daryl grabbed the baby and fed her himself and then gave her a "name".  Another instance was when the group (that included alpha female Michonne and broody, useless Tyrese) went on a run for the meds.  He called the shots and stood up to drunk Bob.  And yet another when he made Merle stand down with those people on the bridge and then forced the group to allow Merle to stay at the prison.  I think Daryl has good enough instincts as a leader but he's got an introverted personality.  He'll take low to people he respects and cares for but he doesn't follow blindly and he will stand up to them if he has serious problems with what they are doing.

 

Speaking of Michonne being an alpha female (In wolf packs, the alpha female is the mate of the alpha male - she answers to none but her spouse.  Just sayin', just sayin'!!!).  I've noticed that Michonne will submit only to men who she senses alpha strength in - submit in the sense of go along with their agenda, not be a doormat to.  She does this naturally with Rick but she also seems to take a strong shine to Daryl.  I think that says as much about him as it does her.

 

Are you coming over to the dark side?  It's nice and cozy here and the snacks are great.

 

I agree with you about Michonne being the alpha female.  Which is why I don't understand why she would give Father Gabriel the time of day.  She might chat with him on the porch because he spoke to her first but to actually seek him out and ask if he wanted to chat?  That doesn't make any damn sense at all.  If Michonne has a crush on the padre, I'm going to be very unhappy.

Edited November 27, 2014 by mightysparrow

[AngelaHunter]

To Jesus?

 

We can hope, but in spite of his mealy-mouthed platitudes, he really doesn't seem to have much faith in that entity.

[JBody]

Ugh. Pair up Michonne with Father Pee Pants? Perish the thought! What kind of sick, twisted mind would dream that uhh oh. Kirkman. No. Even he wouldn't do that to Michonne, purportedly his favourite female character. FPP is too much of a snivelling weasel --she merely took pity upon him, which shows she's human. No big whoop.

[AngelaHunter]

I just rewatched and must say this while my brain can hold the thought. VERY annoyed with:

 

Eugene, after the brutal battering he took from Abe and then his faceplant directly on the concrete resulted in a 1" cut on his forehead? I guess he could be useful as a weapon, since he seems to be impervious to injuries that would kill anyone else.

 

Sasha and Tyreese must be the most feeling, sensitive, emotional and caring people who ever lived. Their unending and overwhelming grief over the loss of a short-term boyfriend and girlfriend respectively far outweighs any lasting emotional devastation that anyone else feels over losing their CHILDREN, spouses, siblings and parents. "I've been there." Tyreese tells Sasha, referring to his dearly departed squeeze whose face I've already forgotten. Carl has bigger cojones than you'll ever have, Ty.

Edited November 27, 2014 by AngelaHunter

[Lyndy]

Sasha and Tyreese must be the most feeling, sensitive, emotional and caring people who ever lived. Their unending and overwhelming grief over the loss of a short-term boyfriend and girlfriend respectively far outweighs any lasting emotional devastation that anyone else feels over losing their CHILDREN, spouses, siblings and parents. "I've been there." Tyreese tells Sasha, referring to his dearly departed squeeze whose face I've already forgotten. Carl has bigger cojones than you'll ever have, Ty.

 

You just nailed what's been bugging me about these two. Look, keep them on. I have nothing against them, really. Well. I have nothing against Sasha. But yeah, it's a bit hard to swallow their overwhelming grief when Carl shot his mother in the head, Daryl killed zombie Merle and let's not even start listing the shit Carol's been through. I can accept that they cared about Bob and whatsherface but the audience just ain't going to be invested in this.

[AngelaHunter]

Don't mean to go on about this, but honestly, I (and I'm sure many others here) have suffered catastrophic losses and probably dealt with them better than Tyreese has over losing his lap-sitter of, what - a couple of weeks?  I'm sick to death of it already (WAS sick to death of it when Tyreese first started the major sulking that had everyone walking on egg shells) and don't think I can take one more second of their watery-eyed mooning around and whining.

 

Rant OFF.

[RedheadZombie]

Also, at the time they arrived in Atlanta, Dawn would not know who these people were or that they wanted to take people from her. They could have had Sasha and maybe Noah get 'rescued' and then our gang has two more people on the inside to help with the overthrow of (again, maximum) three armed guards.

 

Considering "rescuing" seems to include running them over first, that's a risky plan.  I'm not sure if Noah was supposed to be pretending to be hit by the car or if he unintentionally was, but I found it unintentionally funny.

[Pete Martell]

Sasha and Tyreese must be the most feeling, sensitive, emotional and caring people who ever lived. Their unending and overwhelming grief over the loss of a short-term boyfriend and girlfriend respectively far outweighs any lasting emotional devastation that anyone else feels over losing their CHILDREN, spouses, siblings and parents. "I've been there." Tyreese tells Sasha, referring to his dearly departed squeeze whose face I've already forgotten. Carl has bigger cojones than you'll ever have, Ty.

 

Can Sasha's grief be unending when it's lasted for a total of about 2-3 days?

 

I also don't see any indication they believe their grief is more important or valid than anyone else's.

 

Sasha's been closed off emotionally since the ZA, and possibly long before the ZA. She gave Bob a chance, a guy who constantly tried to tell her to be more trusting of life. Almost as soon as she does, he's bitten, he's tortured by cannibals, and she finds him dumped outside of a supposed safe haven. She then spends an extended period of time watching him die. 

 

She wasn't burdening anyone in the group with her grief. She was keeping to herself for most of the episode. She was trying to go back to what she used to be, and she couldn't really do it. So she tries to be trusting, and it turns out to be a stupid mistake. And I'm sure she realizes it's a stupid mistake. That's not about her feeling that her grieving is superior or all-important - it's just a consequence of her opening herself up. I have lost track of how many emotional breakdowns Daryl's had over the last season, breakdowns that have repeatedly led to questionable judgment calls that impact the people in his group. He technically doesn't have any reason to feel this way, but he does, because he also trusted and opened himself up to life, and he feels the hurt.

 

As for Tyreese, I don't believe he's using Karen's murder as an excuse for who he is. He was this way before he ever met Karen. He was hesitant about killing at Woodbury. He was quiet and sensitive. Karen's murder has exacerbated some of this, as did what happened to Lizzie and Mika, but it was already there. 

 

I think the idea of comparing grieving just drags down all the characters. I remember the fans who insisted in season 2 that Carol was a bad mother because she didn't "seem" as upset about Sophia's death as Daryl was. Yet we've repeatedly seen just how much Sophia's death hurt her and changed her.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Raven1707]

But Dawn told Beth, "The wards keep my officers happy."  I took that to mean people (mostly women I assume) IN the wards keep the officers sexually happy.

 

Except that you have to take it in context with what we've seen and been told. Beth woke up in a single-bed hospital room. When she was up and about, she went with Edwards to another single-bed hospital room, where Edwards turned off the telemetry hooked to a male patient and then stabbed the man in the temple area with some kind of instrument. (This was the guy whose body got unceremoniously dumped down the elevator shaft.) Beth also peeked in an open door to what also appeared to be a single-bed hospital room, and a dark-haired young woman basically shut the door in her face. Joan was taken to a single-patient hospital room for her amputation (and later killed herself). Another male patient -- the doctor from Saint Ignatius -- was taken to a single-patient hospital room, (where Beth administered the wrong medicine, as instructed by Edwards). And Carol is in Room 2, unmistakeably a single-patient hospital room.

 

Also, we know there are six patients who Noah thinks would fight on their side against the cops, not including Beth (who Rick's already counting on) and Carol  (who's unconscious). We've seen the older, strawberry-loving guy and another male in scrubs who was assisting the two male cops when the older guy "collapsed." That leaves four patients, and one of those is presumably the dark-haired female who shut the door (to her private room) in Beth's face. Which leaves three patients. Certainly, it's possible that these three are females, but if they are indeed sharing ONE 4-bed (or larger) room, that would be a singular "ward."

 

(This all made sense to me when I wrote it, but I'm a bit sleep-deprived, so it could very well be incomprehensible. If so, I apologize.)

 

"Are you gonna take the cross too?" (Said in the hideously high-pitched "Bob" voice from Bad Lip Reading.)

 

Wasn't that annoying? Although I had flashbacks to Dale: "Are you all going to watch, too?" (Referring, of course, to Randall's execution.)

[Pete Martell]

You just nailed what's been bugging me about these two. Look, keep them on. I have nothing against them, really. Well. I have nothing against Sasha. But yeah, it's a bit hard to swallow their overwhelming grief when Carl shot his mother in the head, Daryl killed zombie Merle and let's not even start listing the shit Carol's been through. I can accept that they cared about Bob and whatsherface but the audience just ain't going to be invested in this.

 

It depends on the audience. I'm invested with Sasha, because I don't believe it's about the great love of the ages. It's about her as a person, who she was, who she wants to be. I feel like the show did a poor job establishing Tyreese's relationship with Karen, but I do see it with Sasha. If it goes on and on, I'll get tired of it, but I don't think they have. So far it's been approximately one episode.

 

If we only allow a handful of characters to have the right to grieve, then we're going to end up with a bunch of automatons who spend even more time in the background while Norman Reedus makes sad panda faces. 

Are you coming over to the dark side?  It's nice and cozy here and the snacks are great.

 

I agree with you about Michonne being the alpha female.  Which is why I don't understand why she would give Father Gabriel the time of day.  She might chat with him on the porch because he spoke to her first but to actually seek him out and ask if he wanted to chat?  That doesn't make any damn sense at all.  If Michonne has a crush on the padre, I'm going to be very unhappy.

 

I don't think she has a crush on him as much as she knew he was having a hard time adapting and she wanted to see how he was. They didn't seem to have much else to do at the time. I think she doesn't want him to be alone the way she was at the prison for a while.

[CarpeDiem54]

I just rewatched and must say this while my brain can hold the thought. VERY annoyed with:

 

Eugene, after the brutal battering he took from Abe and then his faceplant directly on the concrete resulted in a 1" cut on his forehead? I guess he could be useful as a weapon, since he seems to be impervious to injuries that would kill anyone else.

 

Sasha and Tyreese must be the most feeling, sensitive, emotional and caring people who ever lived. Their unending and overwhelming grief over the loss of a short-term boyfriend and girlfriend respectively far outweighs any lasting emotional devastation that anyone else feels over losing their CHILDREN, spouses, siblings and parents. "I've been there." Tyreese tells Sasha, referring to his dearly departed squeeze whose face I've already forgotten. Carl has bigger cojones than you'll ever have, Ty.

This! I finally got to watch and wondered why the hell Mullet Boy's face didn't look like hamburger.

And I'm really tired of the emo over Karen/Bob. I kind of liked Bob but knew basically nothing about Karen and don't care. I'd rather see Maggie grieving Herschel and Beth.

[paigow]

This! I finally got to watch and wondered why the hell Mullet Boy's face didn't look like hamburger.

The oppressive Georgia heat softened up the asphalt to minimize the impact. Nothing that a shot of epinephrine can't fix! 

[Raven1707]

In case anyone is curious, it appears those were pebbles in the bottle that Rosita was using for water filtration.

 

Learned that last night while taking the Ultimate Fan quiz for Episode 507 at AMCTV.com.

[kikismom]

When Bob (the headbanger one) is telling Sasha about his fellow cop that melted, he says the guy was supposed to drive the people they evacuated to "the zone".

Is this going to be some awful tie-in to where there's a safe place?

 

I think I've seen Michonne give FPP a tilted-head-to-the-side-look that she tried on Rick earlier outside the church (who totally whiffed on it like he did with the razor gift.) I dread the possibility of Gabonne or Michiel or Weapon-With-A-Pee-Stain or whatever their couple name would be.

 

I also thought that although some suggest Daryl was talking Rick down off a ledge, at the beginning of the season the producers hinted that there would be conflict between Rick and Daryl...and I thought those looks that Rick gave Daryl---twice---had hints of the way he looked when he was sensing the Shane rising.

Edited November 28, 2014 by kikismom

[AngelaHunter]

Can Sasha's grief be unending when it's lasted for a total of about 2-3 days?

 

In the ZA world, it is. Beth and Maggie weren't given more than 10 minutes to grieve after watching their father's head being hacked off. In comparison to that, 2 -3 days is an eternity.

[Lyndy]

It depends on the audience. I'm invested with Sasha, because I don't believe it's about the great love of the ages. It's about her as a person, who she was, who she wants to be. I feel like the show did a poor job establishing Tyreese's relationship with Karen, but I do see it with Sasha. If it goes on and on, I'll get tired of it, but I don't think they have. So far it's been approximately one episode.

 

If we only allow a handful of characters to have the right to grieve, then we're going to end up with a bunch of automatons who spend even more time in the background while Norman Reedus makes sad panda faces.

Yeah I get what you're saying. I think their presence adds to this show's richness for sure. That moment between Carol and Daryl when he says, "you don't have to" is more touching juxtaposed with flashbacks to Carol taking care of the Lizzie situation because Tyrese can't. Everyone is reacting differently. So I don't really want Tyrese to go. I just want to yell at my TV all, "look, big man. Every time you can't do the awful thing, someone else has to. Step up. And no one cares about your girl." I guess what I'm saying is, I've decided to treat these fictional characters like they're real people that I know personally. That's healthy, right?

[Pete Martell]

In the ZA world, it is. Beth and Maggie weren't given more than 10 minutes to grieve after watching their father's head being hacked off. In comparison to that, 2 -3 days is an eternity.

 

Beth had an entire episode dedicated to mourning her father. Sasha had about three scenes. If I was comparing I'd say Beth got much more focus. 

[Pete Martell]

Yeah I get what you're saying. I think their presence adds to this show's richness for sure. That moment between Carol and Daryl when he says, "you don't have to" is more touching juxtaposed with flashbacks to Carol taking care of the Lizzie situation because Tyrese can't. Everyone is reacting differently. So I don't really want Tyrese to go. I just want to yell at my TV all, "look, big man. Every time you can't do the awful thing, someone else has to. Step up. And no one cares about your girl." I guess what I'm saying is, I've decided to treat these fictional characters like they're real people that I know personally. That's healthy, right?

 

I see what you mean. I do think the show failed to build up his relationship with Karen enough to where we can believably feel the loss. I also think his pacifism, along with Daryl's, led them to make a mistake with the hostage plan. I also know that people have the right to not really care about hearing him or Sasha go on about their loss, and I know other people have lost more than they have. I guess I feel like we're at a point where most of the longtime characters are gone, so any new character will automatically have a loss that can't compare to those. Yet the new characters have to experience loss too. So it's mostly about execution. For me, the show has done an OK job with Sasha (aside from the idiot plotting of her letting Bob 2 get the drop on her) and hasn't made a production out of her feelings, but I do see that's just my opinion.

I think I've seen Michonne give FPP a tilted-head-to-the-side-look that she tried on Rick earlier outside the church (who totally whiffed on it like he did with the razor gift.) I dread the possibility of Gabonne or Michiel or Weapon-With-A-Pee-Stain or whatever their couple name would be.

 

I doubt Michonne would be trying to get the horn on with Gabriel at this point. I think that's just how she tries to show she's paying attention or is there for the person.

 

I do wonder if they may put them together down the road.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Emily Thrace]

Yeah I get what you're saying. I think their presence adds to this show's richness for sure. That moment between Carol and Daryl when he says, "you don't have to" is more touching juxtaposed with flashbacks to Carol taking care of the Lizzie situation because Tyrese can't. Everyone is reacting differently. So I don't really want Tyrese to go. I just want to yell at my TV all, "look, big man. Every time you can't do the awful thing, someone else has to. Step up. And no one cares about your girl." I guess what I'm saying is, I've decided to treat these fictional characters like they're real people that I know personally. That's healthy, right?

I have no problem with Ty and Sasha greiving. I'm a big believer in the idea that your feelings are your feelings and they are alway valid. I also think that Ty and Sasha are not just mourning the people they lost but the loss off hope that the new relationships came with. Particularly Tyrese since they were in such peaceful happy place at the prison at that point.

That said I do have a problem with Tyrese allowing his emotions to get so out of control they put others in danger the way he did when he was on the med run. Tyrese is grown up he should be able to keep his feelings in check. I don't have any issue with the fact that Tyrese feels deeply I've always believed that is a braver choice than shutting down ala Carol. I just think Tyrese goes a little too far the other way. I actually have trouble believing a black man his age who has apparently lived in the South his whole life has as little self control as Ty does frankly. (Although thats a whole other conversation about the writers being tone deaf to the racial issues they have blindly stepped in.)

Also I think with fandom as long as your having fun your fine. As long as your not stalking anyone specific or are saying peoples pets due to them being a bethyl shipper. (No thats not an exageration sadly it has actually happened). Fandom is only really dangerous when you actually take it seriously IMO.

[Watcher0363]

Warning: Mental imagery that may not be forgotten.

 

Let us face the fact that of all our main characters, Michonne is probably the most horny. She is a healthy female in her mid thirties who probably has not had sex since she walker petted her boyfriend and his friend. So we are looking at about two years. A healthy woman at her sexual peek who has been in near death situations with a group of comrades for months now. Her testosterone levels must be sky high for a female. Now anyone who has handled a katana knows that the leather grip of the handle with its ridges and shape could satisfy to a point, but damn some women need to be held. Unfortunately some men don't like to fool around with a brother in arms, especially a top comrade. Throw in a southern pastor and you have the making of some good satisfying sinful sex. Because southern pastors are good like that, with all the hearing of confessions, the counseling and the comforting of women and all that summer heat. At this point I am sure Michonne needs to bare her soul to someone who will bang the hell out her as if she is being both forgiven and punished for sins. Enter FPP 

[bunnyblue]

And I'm really tired of the emo over Karen/Bob. I kind of liked Bob but knew basically nothing about Karen and don't care. I'd rather see Maggie grieving Herschel and Beth.

 

Wow when you put it that way, Maggie's lack of grief over Hershel's death and Beth's kidnapping seems even worse. Tyreese was given episodes to process Karen's death, Sasha's been grieving a few days, but the show refuses to give Maggie even 1 damn line about her father and sister. Ugh, I still hold out hope she'll say something about Beth in the MSF.

 

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, going by what Noah said, there are a total of 6 cops holding a dozen people captive in the hospital. And they've been doing this since the ZA started? What the hell is the point of the hospital. This entire arc doesn't make much sense and is dragging on too long. Terminus, which was more interesting IMO, was dealt with in a shorter time span than Grady Memorial. Thankfully (hopefully) it'll be over on Sunday and the show can move on from this boring-ass storyline.

[AngelaHunter]

Beth had an entire episode dedicated to mourning her father. Sasha had about three scenes.

 

I honestly can't remember Beth's mourning for a whole episode but if she had I wouldn't begrudge her since I think watching a father kneel while a madman slashes his throat and then decapitates him would be way more traumatic than would losing a boyfriend of a few weeks. But what irks me is, I'm sure, different than what irks other people and vice versa. Hey, I liked Andrea!