S04.E08: Smash The Mirror Pt 1 / S04.E09: Smash The Mirror Pt 2

[TwistedandBored]

I would give whatever TIIC want if they would give another name to this guy impersonating Robin Hood. Dick comes to mind. Seriously, he is not the Robin Hood from my childhood or really adulthood. He is just not Robin Hood period. 

[Curio]

I really shouldn't have watched this episode live. The amount of commercials I had to sit through was driving me crazy - to the point where it was making me irrationally angry and found myself getting more annoyed with the episode than I probably should have been. (Granted, crypt banging didn't help, either. Does literally no one in Storybrooke think that's a bad idea? Snow wants the juicy details and Will gives a thumbs up because he also dated an evil queen type? What?!) 

 

I agree with those who felt like this should have been either just an hour-long episode or they needed to film better scenes to make it expand to 2 hours. Compare this episode to the Season 3 two-part finale where SO MUCH HAPPENED, yet this episode literally seemed to have taken place in a Storybrooke hour. Not even two hours like how we were watching it, just a straight up hour. How did they manage to manipulate time like that??
 

Rumple is stone cold, but he committed one of the biggest crimes of Evil Villains everywhere. Don't create a fancy way to kill somebody and then leave the house to let the hero die. That never works. If he can operate the hat to kill the Apprentice, he can stand behind the hat to kill Emma and just call her into the room.

 
I think Rumple was trying to protect himself and his plan more than anything. If he'd been standing behind the hat and Emma saw him, that split second where she recognizes that it's a trap might have been enough for her to conjure up her powerful savior magic and use it against Rumple. The hat's magic also seemed pretty unstable, so he was probably protecting his own magic by getting the hell out of that room. And finally, he wanted the ability to stand guard outside and make sure no one tried to enter the mansion while this was going on. While Rumple was able to stop Hook from derailing his plan, he didn't anticipate Elsa coming, too.

 

So so so so so waiting for that moment when Belle gets the real dagger back and forces Rumple to come clean. They honestly can't keep their marriage together after all of this, right? I mean, there's just no way, right? (Ah, who am I kidding. It's Once. If Regina can get her happy ending, surely they'll find a way to keep Rumple alive until the end of the series and give him Belle as his redemption prize.)

[KingOfHearts]

The flashback pacing was way off because of how spread apart they were. They didn't feel connected or fluid. I agree with many here that the episode was stretched too thin in general. The time it took for Emma to get to the mansion was ridiculous.

[YaddaYadda]

Can you imagine if Belle goes into Rumple's safe?  If she manages to open it?  A hat, a dagger and a freakin' heart!  I know we've seen him close it magically, but isn't there a combination as well?  I could've sworn there was a scene of her opening it once.

[Shanna Marie]

So Arendelle is apparently in a frozen stasis, so Sven didn’t have to take over and rule with an iron hoof in the absence of the royal family.

I would have watched that show. Maybe it can be an animated short.

 

I fast-forwarded through all the Robin scenes and 90% of the Regina scenes. I just can't with them. So icky and gross.

Singing Vivaldi at top volume during their scenes works pretty well (though there might have been a few exclamations of "jackass!" during the rests). I don't know why I didn't fast forward. I guess I was afraid of missing something important.

 

Scenes went on longer than they would under normal circumstances. It wasn't bad, but we'd hit points in scenes that felt abnormally long.

Was it just me, or were there at least three commercial breaks cliffhanging on "will Emma go through the door?"

 

I was concerned about that kiss in the manor was Gold's doing, not Hook's. I'm instead going to tell myself he was genuinely relieved Emma was okay and needed to distract her to grab the hat.

I don't think he was even distracting her. He was saying his final goodbyes because he knows he's going to die, and he's probably hoping he can go out in a way that keeps Rumple from hurting her. It was his last kiss, his last look at her.

 

The ribbons seem like the sort of thing that should work all three ways - They are the product of sisterly love and time, not an effort to forge the one ring to bind them all in the darkness, so it would fit better if the magic lets whatever "sister" is in most need draw on the full power of all.

Yeah, I'm thinking that's the part of Ingrid's plot that will backfire on her, once Emma and/or Elsa figure it out. They'll be able to draw on her magic the same way she drew on theirs, and that will allow them to overpower her, and possibly Rumple, as well. And if they kill her off as an evil villain while Rumple lives, I'll be very upset.

 

Oh and since when does Regina have healing powers? That used to be a Rumpel only skill. Remember when Henry got burned in the burning dreams room and she's like bandaging it and Rumpel healed it. Uh huh. No consistency in these powers, I swear.

Thank you! So I wasn't just imagining that past scene. She very specifically didn't have healing powers. Unless maybe that's a residual effect of her light out-of-the-ass magic.

 

If the show will try to play the redemption card for Rumple after THAT, I'm seriously going to flip out. This was the point of no return, the moral event horizon that should work even for the most delusional viewers.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how he can possibly come back from this. What he's doing is as bad as the quest for power gone on by any of the temporary villains who apparently deserved to die, so it's hard to rationalize him sticking around as a regular character and ever being even the least bit trusted or tolerated. I'd always tried to give him some benefit of the doubt with Milah, thinking that was maybe a rash move he made in the heat of the moment that he might regret. But apparently not, and that makes everything else around it even creepier -- the reconciliation with Bae while Rumple was still gleeful about murdering his mother, Henry's "but he's family" stance although he gleefully murdered another family member, the marriage to Belle. But on this show, you just know it will be Belle's great love and faith in him that pulls him back from the brink, and the fact that he didn't actually go through with sucking Emma into the hat and murdering Hook after forcing him to do something horrible to the woman he loves will be shown as proof that he really does have a good heart (never mind that someone who actually had a good heart wouldn't have contemplated doing such things in the first place).

[Zima]

Why does Hook insist on continuously confronting Rumple on his own? He has no leverage and no magic; not even a gun or anything that might do some damage if he took Rumple by surprise. He keeps plunging head-long into one situation after another where he is put in peril, and then has to be saved.  He's hot and likable and everything, but he is soooo useless.

[BoPeeps]

Even if I could look past the hideous misrepresentation of Robin Hood, the man is a sleezy slug. Does he like Marian? He doesn't and he doesn't respect her at all. The *My Marian* whom he would go to hell and back for has magically reappeared into his and Roland's life, and he is serving his perky penis God with the woman who in a foul former self,  cold-bloodedly murdered her. Puke inducing every time he is on the screen.

 

I don't give a damn about his *wife beater* tank top and what these writers pass off as serving true love. He is scum (grin)

[stealinghome]

You know, I think last night was the first time Snow and Charming have ever said I love you to Emma. D'awwwww. But of course this show treats it like a throwaway line when it should've been a big deal. Sigh.

 

The DQ seems to have sipped from the same "history retcon" well Regina has.

Agreed, but the DQ is also batshit nuts and the show isn't trying to pretend that her version of history actually happened, so I can deal with it.

 

Whoever said that everything, Emma's out of control magic, has been basically pinned on her and it's her fault.  I don't understand why they won't let Snow and Emma have a genuine scene about these issues.

It's because all the "Emma is just so out of control of her magic!" stuff was total BS. It doesn't come from Snow. It came from the writers totally inorganically throwing some crap in Emma's direction so that they could have fireworks at the end of this episode. The friend I watch the show with couldn't get over how contrived it was, and neither could I. Every time Emma's magic made the lights flicker or whatever, I just rolled my eyes.

 

I think she was just desperate and willing to believe anyone and do anything at that point, as long as it just made it stop.

I don't disagree, but I thought it did a huge disservice to the Emma character. She's not that weak or panicked.

 

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this board for it, but being sucked into the hat aside, I find myself actually hoping that Emma does lose her magic at some point. Generally speaking she seems to want it gone 95% of the time, because it seems to make her unhappy the large majority of the time, and frankly I'm tired of hearing her whinge on about it (and about being the Savior). Getting rid of it will make the writers make her have angst about something else, at least.

 

Why does Hook insist on continuously confronting Rumple on his own? He has no leverage and no magic; not even a gun or anything that might do some damage if he took Rumple by surprise. He keeps plunging head-long into one situation after another where he is put in peril, and then has to be saved.  He's hot and likable and everything, but he is soooo useless.

Here's a better question--if you know Emma is deeply in danger and not picking up your phone calls, why the hell don't you go call her family and say "Emma is walking into a trap, you need to stop her and/or call her since she won't pick up for me"??? Hook was literally the dumbest person on screen last night, which, when Henry appears in an episode, is seriously saying something.

[KAOS Agent]

I was listening to everything that Gold told Emma and he was extremely careful not to tell her one single lie. It seemed like especially at the end when she asked if he would do it, she was very much looking to see if he was lying.

He said all the right things to try to convince her to go in that room, but I think the rational side of Emma had started to kick in by then and she had started to think it through a bit. Elsa would never have been able to convince Emma to do anything if she hadn't already kind of decided not to go through with it.

Can I say how awesome it is that Emma Swan got a True Love light blast for loving herself? Best thing about the episode.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this board for it, but being sucked into the hat aside, I find myself actually hoping that Emma does lose her magic at some point. Generally speaking she seems to want it gone 95% of the time, because it seems to make her unhappy the large majority of the time, and frankly I'm tired of hearing her whinge on about it (and about being the Savior). Getting rid of it will make the writers make her have angst about something else, at least.

I'm right there with you! The show treats her as if magic is the only special thing about her, and that's seriously not the case. She has all kinds of invaluable skills like investigation, knowledge of the real world, her courage, her "don't take crap from no one" trait... what happened to that Emma? I guess she died at the end of S1. I'm tired of everyone on the show drawing the Savior card, like she's eternally obligated to be their hero. Without magic, the Charmings would have to love Emma for who she is as opposed to what she can do for them.

 

I understand they needed Emma to keep her magic so the Snow Queen's plan could move forward, but I wish this show would incorporate more long-term consequences that don't get resolved almost instantly.

Edited November 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[LucidDreamer]

Some parts of this episode were pretty good, but I was so distracted by the obvious "mouthpiece of the showrunners/writers" that several characters were turned into to prop up Regina's "road to redemption" I couldn't really enjoy the 2 hours. 

 

Seriously, it was like they took all the complaints about Regina and her past evil actions (and current sleeping with a married man whose wife she killed in another time line) and fed lines to various characters to "clear up" the viewers' "confusion."

 

But I don't actually feel confused. I remember what Regina did when she was the evil queen (and in Storybrook during the earlier seasons).  Hey, if you want to redeem a character, fine. But don't whitewash everything or try to wipe our memories with a rock troll spell, or have characters like THE WOMAN YOU TRIED TO KILL NUMEROUS TIMES (looking at you, Snow) spout off some nonsense about how it's ok you're doing what you're doing now because you deserve happiness, blah, blah, nonsense-cakes.

 

I mean Darth Vadar redeemed himself, somewhat at least, but no one pretended he was just misunderstood and the victim of circumstances. Regina could certainly fight to redeem herself, and that would be great, but the first step toward true redemption would be to accept and own the evil she's done.

 

And maybe not sleep with the man married to a woman you ordered executed, especially while surrounded by the hearts/bodies of those you've killed and/or manipulated over the years.

Edited November 17, 2014 by LucidDreamer

[Chicken Wing]

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this board for it, but being sucked into the hat aside, I find myself actually hoping that Emma does lose her magic at some point. Generally speaking she seems to want it gone 95% of the time, because it seems to make her unhappy the large majority of the time, and frankly I'm tired of hearing her whinge on about it (and about being the Savior). Getting rid of it will make the writers make her have angst about something else, at least.

I'm right there with you! The show treats her as if magic is the only special thing about her, and that's seriously not the case. She has all kinds of invaluable skills like investigation, knowledge of the real world, her courage, her "don't take crap from no one" trait... what happened to that Emma? I guess she died at the end of S1. I'm tired of everyone on the show drawing the Savior card, like she's eternally obligated to be their hero. Without magic, the Charmings would have to love Emma for who she is as opposed to what she can do for them.

 

I also want her to ditch the magic because I feel like it takes away from the story's original conceit - that she's just an regular girl from the real world who learns that she actually came from a land of fairy tales and magic, but she's not quite part of it. She's not magical or supernatural. She's Emma Swan, bail bondswoman and the worst lie detector on the face of the planet. Can we go back to that? Emma being a hero just because she's an ordinary person dealing with extraordinary things?

Edited November 17, 2014 by Chicken Wing

[kili]

Anna was hit with the mirror-curse of seeing only the bad and she urned her sister. Did urning her sister break that spell or was it the act of True Love of Elsa? Elsa did not fight being urned or lash out at her sister. She just calmly told her sister she loved her.

 

Is an act of True Love going to save the town from the spell this time (that is what the Snow Queen did when she broke the mirror - she said she was going to get everybody with it)? Please, please, please, pleaes please, I beg that whatever that act is, it has nothing to do with Robin and Regina in the Crypt of Evil^H^H^H^HLove.

Edited November 17, 2014 by kili

[Shanna Marie]

Think about who he was going to call...Snow and Charming weren't exactly using their brains and Elsa doesn't have a phone that we know about. I took it that he was just tired of their crap and wanted to get things done. It backfired - again - but the Charmings would have been less than helpful.

Yeah, I don't think he was necessarily firing on all mental cylinders, but I will kind of give him a pass here. He hasn't watched enough TV or movies to know that when you have vital information like that, you need to do more than leave a message for one person. You need to tell someone else, then write it down and mail it to someone. A billboard would be nice. As for getting the Charmings on board with what he knew, based on his experience with them I can see where he would have felt like talking to them wouldn't be much help. They were already okay with Emma losing her powers and they tend not to trust him. Explaining how he knew what Rumple was up to would have gotten them sidetracked on the "how dare you, you're a terrible person" topic where his not telling about what Rumple was up to would have been worse than what Rumple was up to, if they even believed him, which would have delayed him being able to go after her.

 

Didn't he leave before Elsa did? It would have been nice if he'd signaled Elsa to come with him, but I liked that she decided on her own for her own reasons. I was hoping that they'd run into each other on the way to the mansion, but I liked that it was Elsa getting Emma to accept her magic that did the trick rather than Hook persuading her with the force of his love, and if Elsa had run ahead to save Emma while Rumple had Hook tied up, then people would have known what was up with Rumple. I guess I just like the Elsa and Hook team, since they're in general on Team Gets Stuff Done Instead of Whining, and they manage it even in an unfamiliar world.

[stealinghome]

Think about who he was going to call...Snow and Charming weren't exactly using their brains and Elsa doesn't have a phone that we know about. I took it that he was just tired of their crap and wanted to get things done. It backfired - again - but the Charmings would have been less than helpful. Someone needed to call Ruby and Granny. They could have gotten stuff done too.

Why would the Charmings have been less than helpful? "Emma needs to sort her shit out" is very different from "Emma is walking into a trap." I honestly didn't have much of a problem with how the Charmings handled Emma last night, so obviously ymmv, but if Hook had called David and said "I messed up, I'm sorry, but Gold is going to suck Emma into a magical hat from which there is no escape," I think they would have blown up Emma's phone and gone after her quicker. They would have said "You're an idiot, but meet us at the mansion ready to take down Gold." In the best case, maybe they could have prevented Emma from getting to the house, which would've forestalled Hook himself getting his heart ripped out. Or if, at worst, you're going into a magical firefight with the Dark One, maybe Snow and Charming could bring Regina and/or Blue (again perhaps preventing Hook's heart-ripping). There's always strength in numbers. I just can't agree that blowing the whistle on a threat as large as Rumpel+the hat is a bad or pointless thing. People need to know about that! Hook needed to fess up in that moment. That he didn't is a major strike against him.

 

Honestly, I realized last night that I'm so over Hook. He talks a big game about wanting to be better and whatever, but he keeps making the same mistakes and doing the same stupid crap over and over. Given that Hook continues to make a mess of things when he tries to "help," maybe he should change his strategy one of these days. Or at least figure out that honesty is the best policy. He can be soulful and agonized and wtfever all he wants, but until his behavior actually starts matching what he says, I'm side-eyeing him. (Once he gets his heart back, of course. Until then, he's a puppet, so.)

 

I'm right there with you! The show treats her as if magic is the only special thing about her, and that's seriously not the case. She has all kinds of invaluable skills like investigation, knowledge of the real world, her courage, her "don't take crap from no one" trait... what happened to that Emma? I guess she died at the end of S1. I'm tired of everyone on the show drawing the Savior card, like she's eternally obligated to be their hero. Without magic, the Charmings would have to love Emma for who she is as opposed to what she can do for them.

This is what  I thought the episode last night was super inconsistent on. The show wanted to have it both ways. "Magic doesn't make you special...except it totally does!" That came through with Elsa, Emma, Regina, even Henry. The show needs to pick one message or the other, but it can't have it both ways. Either magic does make you special, for better or worse, or it doesn't, but it can't both make you special and not make you special.

 

Honestly, though, I thought the Charmings pretty conclusively showed that they don't love Emma for what her magic does when they were like "She's losing her magic? Whatever, nbd." If all they cared about was her magic, they would have gone racing after her immediately screaming "EMMA DON'T!"

Edited November 17, 2014 by stealinghome

[DeLurker]

Rumple, you are magnificent. And a bastard with a capital B.

You are a Magnificent Bastard.

That is all.

[KingOfHearts]

Honestly, though, I thought the Charmings pretty conclusively showed that they don't love Emma for what her magic does when they were like "She's losing her magic? Whatever, nbd." If all they cared about was her magic, they would have gone racing after her immediately screaming "EMMA DON'T!

This didn't make any sense, I have to say. It was totally inconsistent with their behavior in the past. They didn't give a flip about Emma in the Missing Year until they needed her magic, Snow has said multiple times that Emma needs to embrace her gift, and heck - they threw her in a wardrobe to save them from the curse. Even in this episode alone they changed their minds like a switch. It only took one speech from Regina to change their whole view. This episode's treating of magic changed to whatever needed to fit the plot.

[KAOS Agent]

The Charmings basically said in this episode that they love Emma in spite of her magic. That's why losing magic was no big deal to them. In fact, they implied it might be an improvement.

It's never been about how they love her because she's the Saviour or because her magic can help them. It's that they expect her to do things and use her magic, but the second it's not convenient for them, she's thrown under the bus. That goes for the non-magical parts of Emma too. The way the show has framed things, as long as Emma acts the way Snow wants, it's all good. The second she doesn't, Snow gets to be all self-righteous about how Emma is wrong to feel however Emma feels. Sometimes Snow is correct on calling Emma out, other times she's not, but the show has consistently played it so that Emma is always wrong. It needs to stop and they need to have it out.

[YaddaYadda]

I guess this is where 405 sort of comes into play in retrospect.  Regina knows exactly how powerful Emma is and how special her magic is and that's it's part of her, so that's really one instance where I can just turn a blind eye.  Even for MM and David, I sort of get where they were coming from.  If Emma wants to get rid of her magic, then as her parents, they feel they have to support her choice.  Emma never really embraced her powers and everything else that comes with that.  I can't be too harsh on that even if it didn't sound right.  Sometimes I feel the writers have a difficult time with the POV and how it should be written much simpler terms.  But that's just me.

[AV8n]

Emma, you moved to Storybrooke like 3 years ago, lived in NYC briefly, and yet you still have Massachusetts plates on the Beetle?  You're the sherriff of Storybrooke - the chief law enforcement officer - and yet you can't get down to the DMV within 60 days of establishing residence?  What kind of example is this setting for Henry?  Just because your mom's the mayor doesn't mean you get special treatment.

 

Marian must make one hell of an air conditioner / beer cooler at Robin's camp.  Might explain why he's in no hurry to have to address the awkwardness.

 

Love that DQ's supernatural sisterhood is symbolized by 19th century Livestrong bracelets.

 

Those of you griping about the Outlaw Queen getting busy on the floor of the crypt have no idea how creative those two can be.

 

Was it just be, or was the whole thing about Emma embracing who she was and not trying to be normal a veiled parallel to attempting to change one's sexuality?

 

If the sorcerer's apprentice isn't indeed the Sorcerer, that has got to be the longest apprenticeship ever.  I guess he was like I've been waiting to take my exit exams for 1,500 years.  Yeah, go ahead and suck me into the magic hat - I've had enough of this crap.  Of course, the Sorcerer could be Dr. Strange, so then we'd have a Marvel tie-in.

Edited November 17, 2014 by AV8n

[wingster55]

They didn't give a flip about Emma in the Missing Year until they needed her magic,

 

With that..I think it was just that they weren't willing to cast a curse until it was absolutely necessary (and that they didn't have any beans)

[shapeshifter]

...

Why does Hook insist on continuously confronting Rumple on his own? He has no leverage and no magic; not even a gun or anything that might do some damage if he took Rumple by surprise. He keeps plunging head-long into one situation after another where he is put in peril, and then has to be saved.  He's hot and likable and everything, but he is soooo useless.

Here's a better question--if you know Emma is deeply in danger and not picking up your phone calls, why the hell don't you go call her family and say "Emma is walking into a trap, you need to stop her and/or call her since she won't pick up for me"??? Hook was literally the dumbest person on screen last night, which, when Henry appears in an episode, is seriously saying something.

I see Hook's ability to use a cell phone ("talking phone") to be just slightly above that of my 86-year-old mother, so I didn't question it.

 

..."Why would Emma even think about trusting Gold even for a second?"...

Well, he did seem to be trustworthy and selfless briefly when battling Pan, but, yeah, that was probably more revenge than anything.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The Charmings basically said in this episode that they love Emma in spite of her magic. That's why losing magic was no big deal to them. In fact, they implied it might be an improvement.

 

This episode had no lead-up is what I'm saying. The plot needed a reason for Snow and Charming to stay put so Elsa could go it alone and Snow could have time to gossip about Robin Hood with Regina. If they cared about Emma at all, they'd actually put time into getting to know her instead of putting her in danger all the time. You can't tell me there was nothing questionable about Emma's magic being removed. Two weeks ago a wicked witch removed it so she could get the upper hand. Is it me, or does everyone in Storybrooke drink a forget potion after every arc? 

 

I just don't buy it. This show twists characters to fit the story of the week. As much as I'm fond of Snowing embracing Emma for who she is, even when its inconvenient, there wasn't enough groundwork laid to make it believable. When Regina spoke with them about her, she immediately became "useful" to them again, so they changed their minds.

 

 

It's never been about how they love her because she's the Saviour or because her magic can help them. It's that they expect her to do things and use her magic, but the second it's not convenient for them, she's thrown under the bus.

This happened when Snow said "Emma!" in 4x07. The minute she was inconvenient, she got tossed overboard.

Edited November 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[brisbydog]

Skipped all Robin/Regina again and even with that this episode dragged something awful (I don't mind adultery on TV when it is done with some semblance of reality, but this is just disgusting, and to me Robin/Marian are up there with 'classic' couples like Romeo/Juliette, Tristan/Isolde,,Abelard/Heloise etc. and you should not mess with that - why couldn't Regina's true love been somebody who does not have a pairing?). I started it at 9 and I was so happy whenever a commercial break came so I could speed it along. LOATHED Snow's victim blaming herself for all of Regina's past acts of attempted murder, actual genocide, would be infanticide etc. as 'ok cause I was a bratty kid'.

 

Unlike most people here I dislike Hook so was ok with Rumple tormenting him. I loved the "you're my oldest friend" line. Also adored Rumple/Emma scene. I like how he never lied to her and told her outright he would never go in that room. Like most people here I am really loving the Frozen arc and will be said when that is gone. I was hanging on for Robert Carlyle only and pretty anti Frozen going in so this was a nice surprise.

 

I get Rumple's descent into evil. He searched for his son for centuries, found him, did a heroic sacrifice to save him and Belle, and then Bae ended up dead anyway because he was tied to the dagger. I comprehend him both wanting to be rid of it and also wanting to go all Zod on our world. Hope we get to see it.

[RadioGirl27]

So ABC gives A&E an extra hour and the first thing that come to their minds is to show Regina and Robin having sex in a crypt, the same place where Regina's parents (and her dead boyfriend) are buried, surrounded by all the hearts Regina has stolen, including the frozen heart of Robin's wife. That's the definition on epic romance. By the way, where is Marian? In Granny's refrigerator? Or they have her in Ingrid's shop? Everything about Robin and Regina is so gross. And you know who else is gross? Snow. I can't even.

My expectations were incredibly low for this, and I'm grateful for that, because that way I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would. That, if I block everything involving Robin, Regina, Snow and the book nonsense. I love Elizabeth Mitchell and the DQ, the flashback was great, Elsa is amazing and Rumple is a bastard. But, all in all, the episode was boring as hell. They had not material enough for two hour and it was painfully obvious.

Poor Hook, my heart broke for him. Between Rumple taking his heart, and the Charmings totally ignoring him (not only Snow and Charming didn't even realize he hadn't come back, at the end Emma didn't even realize he wasn't there for the fireworks. They are walking together, suddenly he is not there and she doesn't even looks surprised), he really had a bad day.

I hope Emma gets to listen the phone call. But I guess it would end up in the endless list of stuff that never pays off.

 

I don't think he was even distracting her. He was saying his final goodbyes because he knows he's going to die, and he's probably hoping he can go out in a way that keeps Rumple from hurting her. It was his last kiss, his last look at her.

Yeah, the kiss was him saying goodbye to Emma.

 

We’d just damn well better get a wonderful Captain Swan scene with Emma saving Killian and restoring his heart by the mid-season break.

I hope so, but I prefer to have my expectations low. That way I won't be deceived.

One last thing, why did they bring Will exactly? Someone please explain it to me.

Edited November 17, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[pcta]

My take away from this episode is that Gold/Rumple is a fairy tale character. Larger than life. Truly immersed in a world of magic and it's repercussions. The rest of the characters seem to be from soap opera land. For me this is why this season lacked spice - until now, way too little Rumple, way too little operatic level emotion.

Edited November 17, 2014 by pcta

[Curio]

"Emma needs to sort her shit out" is very different from "Emma is walking into a trap." I honestly didn't have much of a problem with how the Charmings handled Emma last night, so obviously ymmv, but if Hook had called David and said "I messed up, I'm sorry, but Gold is going to suck Emma into a magical hat from which there is no escape," I think they would have blown up Emma's phone and gone after her quicker.

 

Should Hook have confessed to the Charmings right on the spot in their loft? Probably. But I think he also reacted realistically as a person who just realized a secret from his past was coming back to haunt him and was desperately trying to fix that issue alone before anyone else could learn he royally fucked up. It's what still makes him a grey character instead of a full-on good guy. Belle did the exact same thing in her episode - she had a secret she attempted to keep from everyone and she tried to solve the issue herself, but once it was out of control, she had to confess. Hook thought if he acted quickly enough, he could go save Emma and skip the step of having to confess his agonizing secret to his future in-laws who already side-eye him as it is.

 

As for not calling Charming and Snow immediately after calling Emma in Gold's shop? I'll chalk that up to him not wanting to waste any more time and being so tunnel-visioned on saving his love. At least he was doing something instead of sitting around an apartment reading comic books or talking about his sex life in the middle of the road.

 

(And knowing how technologically savvy Hook is, there's a high probability that he A) only has Emma's phone number programmed on his phone right now, and B) doesn't understand the concept of keeping a phone charged properly and it died after he left Emma the phone call.)

[Mari]

With that..I think it was just that they weren't willing to cast a curse until it was absolutely necessary (and that they didn't have any beans)

That's a generous interpretation of their behavior in 3b.

Personally--they didn't talk about her at all--not even a "Wow, I wish Emma was here." or yes, I'm looking at this drawing of Emma, and now I'm sad. She was not even mentioned when Regina was expressing Regina's Greatest Pain Ever in having to leave Henry--to Snow, of all people, who was forced to leave her daughter behind twice, because of someone else's actions.

She was brought up twice in the entire missing year. Once was when David was concerned he would not be a good father, and Snow told him what happened with Emma was not his fault--so it wasn't actually a conversation about Emma--and when they thought they needed Emma to break the curse.

Even in this episode, Snow was more concerned with and interested in Regina's soap opera problems than her own endangered/missing daughter.

I don't think they truly love her. They care about her, but she's pretty peripheral to their emotions and interests.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

B) doesn't understand the concept of keeping a phone charged properly and it died after he left Emma the phone call.

 

On the plus side, his phone is a lot more modern than Snow's flip phone.

[Rumsy4]

 

 

RUMSY4, ON 17 NOV 2014 - 10:28 AM, SAID:

..."Why would Emma even think about trusting Gold even for a second?"...

Well, he did seem to be trustworthy and selfless briefly when battling Pan, but, yeah, that was probably more revenge than anything.

 

That was trying to quote someone on my iPhone. I think the good guys in general have been shown to be a little too gullible when it comes to villains. Emma seems to have bought into Regina's redemption despite having witnessed her Dark Side first hand during the Time Travel adventure. So, I guess she believed the same to be true of Rumple (especially since everyone thinks Belle has the Dagger).

 

 

One last thing, why did they bring Will exactly? Someone please explain it to me.

 

Yeah--his pointlessness is starting to grate. There are enough people whining over their heartbreaks as it is.

[Blue Plastic]

Ingrid probably needed a few years to establish herself before she could create a fake identity good enough that the foster care system bought into it. Heck, she had a whole group of foster kids, so she must have been doing it for a while. Uhm. Bloody heck, just how smart is Ingrid? Because pulling that of from starting in new york in a fancy dress with no paper work or ID... What did she do, get a lead in a broadway production? Take over the criminal underworld via freezing death?

If I were her, I would have thought the Apprentice had tricked me when I walked into 1980s New York.  Too many people (searching for a needle in a haystack), no money, wearing a weird dress, no shoes.  Not sure how she managed to establish herself as an acceptable foster mother with all that going against her.  All that aside, how did she know when and where Emma would be and that she would even need a foster mother?

 

To her credit, she took it all in with her usual icy aplomb.  I would have been in a puddle on the ground!  I'm assuming her magic would no longer work, right?

 

It looks like The Book has identity issues and wants to become a Choose Your Own Adventures instead.  And no, I still can't take this plotline seriously after eight episodes.

It totally does!  I wouldn't be surprised if "page 23" said:  "Does Regina chicken out and walk away?  Turn to page whatever.  Or does she gather up her courage and walk into the tavern?  Turn to page whatever."

Edited November 17, 2014 by Blue Plastic

[DeLurker]

One last thing, why did they bring Will exactly? Someone please explain it to me.

Because he was the only part of Wonderland worth saving?

[Rumsy4]

Honestly, though, I thought the Charmings pretty conclusively showed that they don't love Emma for what her magic does when they were like "She's losing her magic? Whatever, nbd." If all they cared about was her magic, they would have gone racing after her immediately screaming "EMMA DON'T!"

 

But they don't need her magic now, do they? And they specifically said that she won't be able to hurt anyone if her magic is gone. That's like going straight for lobotomy to "cure" someone's issues. And now Regina has Light Magic, it looks like they don't want to risk getting hurt by Emma's more "unstable" magic. There was no urgency to try and get to her either. By the time they leisurely gossiped and strolled up to wherever Emma was, she could have completed the de-magicking procedure and "become normal". The pacing was horrible. And it was obvious that they only had this plot to make it fit with Frozen. 

[Shanna Marie]

I see Hook's ability to use a cell phone ("talking phone") to be just slightly above that of my 86-year-old mother, so I didn't question it.

Yeah, he probably could have called David while on the way to the mansion so he wouldn't have lost time trying to explain before leaving but still could have told someone else, but if he doesn't have a "David" button programmed on the talking phone, he can't do that, and we've never seen him using the phone to talk to anyone but Emma (does he even know anything about phone numbers?). I'm still not sure they'd have believed him about Rumple because he has zero proof. They've seen Belle using the dagger to control Rumple. If Hook suddenly started talking about Rumple having a magic hat that he's using to suck up magical beings, then they'd claim that Belle wouldn't let him do it, and then he'd have to explain about the dagger, and they'd say they'd seen her use it on him, and besides, he's family and wouldn't do anything to Emma, since she's the mother of his grandchild and Neal loved her. Oddly enough, Belle might be the only person right now who might believe Hook because she knows about the hat and she did hear the mirror tell her the dagger was fake.

 

That was a weird self contradiction in the Charmings -- we'd love and accept Emma with or without magic, but maybe it's better for everyone if she's "normal." And that's another reason why Hook might not have said anything to them. If they were totally on board with her losing her powers, he might not have seen them as allies.

[FabulousTater]

If I were her, I would have thought the Apprentice had tricked me when I walked into 1980s New York.  Too many people (searching for a needle in a haystack), no money, wearing a weird dress, no shoes.  Not sure how she managed to establish herself as an acceptable foster mother with all that going against her.  All that aside, how did she know when and where Emma would be and that she would even need a foster mother?

To her credit, she took it all in with her usual icy aplomb.  I would have been in a puddle on the ground!  I'm assuming her magic would no longer work, right?

I'm assuming Snow Queen does have her magic when she lands in 1980s real world. If Emma's her "perfect match sister" and Emma has magic in the real world because she's inherently magical, then I'm assuming the Snow Queen kept her magic as well since she's also inherently magical. Also, if Snow Queen kept her magic that explains how she's able to establish herself in the real world after crossing over with absolutely nothing but the clothes on her back (but no shoes!) and a magical scroll/prophecy.

[elle]

Love that DQ's supernatural sisterhood is symbolized by 19th century Livestrong bracelets.

Any (not so)old Warehouse 13 fans out there?  When I first say the ribbons the sisters were wearing that Rumple wanted in trade, I thought to myself "it's the creation of an artifact".  When the Snow Queen activated them on Emma's and Elsa's wrists, I said out loud "they ARE artifacts!"

[AV8n]

I'm assuming Snow Queen does have her magic when she lands in 1980s real world. If Emma's her "perfect match sister" and Emma has magic in the real world because she's inherently magical, then I'm assuming the Snow Queen kept her magic as well since she's also inherently magical. Also, if Snow Queen kept her magic that explains how she's able to establish herself in the real world after crossing over with absolutely nothing but the clothes on her back (but no shoes!) and a magical scroll/prophecy.

My guess is she started one heckuve Dippin' Dots franchise.

[Izeinwinter]

It's a pretty impressive trick even with magic. She fit in, in a world nothing like her own, without being educated in it's functioning via curse. 

[Shanna Marie]

My guess is she started one heckuve Dippin' Dots franchise.

It's the ice cream of the future!

 

Or else she got cast as an extra for party scenes on Dynasty, Dallas and the like. Her dress would fit right in.

[Serena]

This is what  I thought the episode last night was super inconsistent on. The show wanted to have it both ways. "Magic doesn't make you special...except it totally does!" That came through with Elsa, Emma, Regina, even Henry. The show needs to pick one message or the other, but it can't have it both ways. Either magic does make you special, for better or worse, or it doesn't, but it can't both make you special and not make you special.

I don't think it was inconsistent. The message wasn't "magic does/doesn't make you special". It was "you're special just the way you are". The way Henry was, was without magic, Heart of the Truest Believer, Blablabla. The way Emma was, was the Savior with Powerful Magic. They were trying to say "accept and love yourself the way you are". Magic was just a metaphor was xyz personal characteristics.

[Curio]

Like a lot of you, I was totally expecting someone (most likely Belle) to overhear Hook's conversation in the Pawn Shop. But now I'm wondering if Henry was actually smart enough to put some bugs in there while he's been working. If he's truly trying to help Regina figure out the author of the book, I wouldn't put it past him to put some recording devices in there.
 

My guess is she started one heckuve Dippin' Dots franchise.

It's the ice cream of the future!

 
Off-topic rant: Dippin' Dots were so much better when they actually served it to you in a dish instead of those stupid plastic bags that melt the ice cream by the time you get to the bottom half.

[Jean]

I don't think Emma trusted Rumple completely until he was being completely sincere with his I'm selfish and power hungry speech. That's why she was hemming and hawing, well that and because they needed to pad the episode. It's probably the most sincere he's been with anyone since Bae. The fact that he used his rare sincerity to manipulate Emma makes it even more delicious. There's also the fact that back in the time travel adventure, he did let Emma go knowing that Bae would end up dead in the future. That probably contributes to her willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

One thing did stand out, he thinks Belle really sees him, as the person who will always pick power over anything and I don't think that's true at all. I don't know if he believes that himself cause why else would he lie to her? Like Emma said, Belle believes he's changed or can change. He's clearly expecting her to just go, "oh well shit happens" and move on? I mean she has before so maybe that's why he's confident.

 

Ingrid's conversation with the Apprentice made it pretty clear that there are differences between those born with magic and those that just have the ability to use it. She specifically told him she wanted a perfect match, one that was born with magic like her and Elsa, not any other kind. But that begs the question, why wasn't Zelena a match? Hell she's as crazy as Ingrid is and was already born and accepting of her powers. I did love the scene when she told the Apprentice that she lost the sister she already had. It was so child-like. And the total glee she had when she told Rumple that it was Elsa who saved Emma and got her to accept her powers so the sister bracelets could be activated was golden. I love those 2 together. They have the best dynamic this show's ever had.

[Paron Xanthis]

"Ingrid must have eyes and ears all over this place.  Well, not literally, of course, because that'd just be gross."  Loved that one from Anna! :)

[LucidDreamer]

Speaking of Ingrid and the castle scenes -- did I miss something?  It appeared that Ingrid was running the castle and/or acting like the Queen in those scenes. But Elsa was the real Queen, at least as far as her subjects were concerned.  Did Ingrid use magic to control the guards? Or what?  Why would the guards lock up Anna on Ingrid's say-so? 

 

This may have been addressed during some moment where I dozed off, but it struck me as odd.

[Daisy]

Rumple, you are magnificent. And a bastard with a capital B.

You are a Magnificent Bastard.

That is all.

 

 

at this point - i would watch a show with Rumple + Lionel Luthor from Smallville and watch them out think each other. it's so awesome. 

 

For a moment - and i thought this was the show being dumb - i thought Elsa stole the potion to find Anna. And when the red thing dropped, I screamed "OH MY GOD, ANNA IS IN THE HOUSE TOO?!" then there was no Anna  and i was like 'This means the Snow Queen's thing is working because they are sisters and Anna =Emma now!"

 

until my friend had to go "no dear. Elsa just used Emma's jacket."

Daisy is sad. :(

[Rick Kitchen]

Speaking of Ingrid and the castle scenes -- did I miss something?  It appeared that Ingrid was running the castle and/or acting like the Queen in those scenes. But Elsa was the real Queen, at least as far as her subjects were concerned.  Did Ingrid use magic to control the guards? Or what?  Why would the guards lock up Anna on Ingrid's say-so? 

 

This may have been addressed during some moment where I dozed off, but it struck me as odd.

 

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too.

 

 

But then, a little bit of Anna goes a long way.  They may have just locked her up because she was annoying.

[wingster55]

This happened when Snow said "Emma!" in 4x07. The minute she was inconvenient, she got tossed overboard.

 

Tossed overboard is a fairly large exaggeration.

 

I don't think they truly love her. They care about her, but she's pretty peripheral to their emotions and interests.

 

I don't think they need to mention her every 5 seconds to show that they love her.

[Mari]

I don't think they need to mention her every 5 seconds to show that they love her.

No.  They don't.  But Snow and Charming only mentioning Emma when they need her to do something for them is pretty telling.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Mari

[Actionmage]

And now Regina has Light Magic, it looks like they don't want to risk getting hurt by Emma's more "unstable" magic. There was no urgency to try and get to her either.

 

It feels like The Show is trying to say that Emma doesn't need to be magical because? Regina's The Total Package- Dark/Light magic, Healing magic, heart optional! Any magic you need, don't bother to ask, Regina's got your solution.

 

Meanwhile, Light magic is shafted by only having Emma as a known practitioner, and that very haphazardly. The fairies have scurried somewhere since Pan's shadow crashed the church with Dead/NotDead Blue. It has been shown to potentially be stronger (ex. True Love's Kiss), but no one with that mindset has been around to volunteer to show Emma how she can best use it. Only the Dark practitioners. The two people who caused so much trauma to Emma. Regina comes across as not really giving two..figs about Emma. Rumple respects Emma, but not enough to worry about what she might do; he knows he has time and training over her.

 

I would be okay with Nonmagic Emma, but then why give her the powers in the first place? It's never used in any constructive or character-building ways. If it had, then Emma would remember saving herself with her version of a bridge. She'd know that she can control her powers, evidenced by her being able to sleep in the Bug without it going up in flames.  Everything about the "out-of-control" powers felt so outside forced that I am disappointed that Hook or someone else did not state that as a possibility. Or Elsa mentioning the ice manacles that she escaped.

 

As to the urgency, or lack thereof? There was a sentence uttered about Snow seeing footprints that went off  down the road. Wrong. After walking back and forth while talking to Ingrid, Emma got into her car and drove off! That the line was given to Snow, the bandit/tracker, got me angry. Also, since it was full dark by the time Snowing and Regina and Henry go to where the Bug ran off the road? Why not get in the car and use the headlights to follow the impossible footprints/tracks? (Yes, yes; they couldn't talk about the sex with Henry around. Because he's a tween who doesn't notice girls. Because he seems to be the only child in town.)

[Curio]

As to the urgency, or lack thereof? There was a sentence uttered about Snow seeing footprints that went off  down the road. Wrong. After walking back and forth while talking to Ingrid, Emma got into her car and drove off! That the line was given to Snow, the bandit/tracker, got me angry.

 

While I think that line was just a contrived way for the writers to make the scene longer, those footprints could have also been Elsa's or Hook's following Emma to the mansion.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Curio