S02.E07: Deliverance

[bmoore4026]

I said it elsewhere, might as well say it here: FRANKLIN PRISM POWER!

[slade3]

Someone pointed out that Crane has worn his hair in a ponytail until he started to doubt Katrina, and the started wearing his hair loose and flowing. I noticed this week his hair was loose in the beginning, but pulled back into a ponytail later when Katrina was around. Has anyone been paying attention to this? Just curious if there's something to it.

 

I have to say I thought Hawley looked good on paper. I was excited about the spoilers and even more excited when I saw a shirtless photo of the actor. Even sent the link to my sister as a way to try to draw her into watching the show. Glad she didn't bite because Hawley's been a disappointment to me. He doesn't look as cute as his pictures, and I certainly didn't anticipate the comic-relief route they've taken with. Neither did I expect he had a thing with Jenny, which is the biggest reason I'm no longer excited about him hooking up with Abbie.

[Artesia]

Well... I was prepared to dislike that episode, I steeled myself — and ended up straight hating it. Gah. It was a complete waste of my time, it was almost devoid of any good sides, if that's the direction producers want to take this show then I'm out. I'm not a person of color, but I really enjoyed the ensemble when it consisted of Abbie, Crane, Jenny and Irving, with Sheriff Corbin appearing in flashbacks. I loved those characters not because of them being diverse, they actually worked great together and had awesome chemistry. Show in first half of its first season also had both the energy and momentum which other Sci-Fi shows lacked. What happened? It's like they tossed out all that worked, and insisted to shoehorn all that doesn't.

If I dissect this episode and lay down pros and cons, former would consist of only one entry.

Pros

• Abbie being badass. Well, it was as expected, but I liked her following Hellfire club, I liked her disapproval of that idiotic "WE MUST REDEEM HENRY" notion. Disliked that she was sidelined by all that bullshit though.

Cons

• Villain decay. They effectively made Headless Horseman into a lovesick, boring idiot straight from bad paranormal romance. "Boo-hoo, I turned evil because I loved you so! But in my stone, evil heart there still a flame burning, my love!". And Henry could be a good villain - if he wasn't so childish and if he wasn't Cranes' son. Right now instead of feelings of trepidation when either of therm shows on my screen I think "Oh, get lost already, will you". In attempt  of humanizing them, they effectively stripped away their menace. We haven't seen Abraham doing something horrific all new season. Henry, on the other hand, made quite a lot of evil deeds, but show insists that TRU PARENTAL WUV cures all and erases all sins. Let's just say I vehemently disagree.
• Headless Horseman with a head. I second all those who said it before - the guy who played HH was a great physical actor, he managed to convey much using only gestures, posture and movements. Abraham, on the other hands, is bland. They've also made a mistake insisting that it was jealousy which turned him into HH, why couldn't it been a simple fear of death, which he could have started to regret later? Yeah, it would be pretty banal, but at least we wouldn't have to deal with all that Katrina melodrama. But even with current storyline, it would at least be moderately interesting if HH would communicate via pantomime or another person. Oh well.
• Henry. He continues to bug me. He's too evil that I've could even consider a redemption storyline, and (with all due respect to John Noble) he is way too old that I could see him just as a feral child, who rips wings from flies. Also he's too scenery chewing, there's too much of him, and, frankly, I want him gone. He's disturbing show's balance, I think he got that from his mother.
• McGuffin Prism of Destroying Demonic Fetuses. Maybe it's because I hated the whole episode, but this macguffin really bothered me. Of course one of Founding Fathers foresaw that Katrina would become pregnant with hellspawn, and of course he left it at convenient location which our heroes could quickly access. What a coincidence! What a work of fate! It returned Katrina to Crane and to us! Hallelujah!
• Crane's stupidity and His True Epic Love Story For Ages. When it comes to Katrina his IQ drops to a room temperature. He starts agreeing with Abbie, but in the end of course he will side with his witch of a wife, because ~twu epic wuv~. Show, I tuned in not because of Cranes' true epic love, but in spite of it. Stop it, show, what are you doing? If only their love would enhance them somewhat, but no, it makes them both look like idiots, make terrible decisions and takes a lot of valuable screen time which could have been used on storylines tied to an actual prevention of freaking Apocalypse.
• ​That whole redemption business. I won't get into details, but as many already said before me — I detest it. I don't want Cranes family drama, Henry's too evil to even begin redemption, it won't make a good story, and it's not even stretch of credibility, it's a total break from it. I could see Abraham getting redeemed, most of evil he made was either off-screen, or to people whom we haven't  emotionally connected with, only exception being Sheriff Corbin. But Henry targeted protagonists our protagonists, he actively messing up with Irving, he impregnated his own mother with a demon fetus, he killed various completely innocent people whom we had emotional connection with (most here liked miss Caroline, for example). I don't want him getting redeemed, I want him gone.
• Absence of Jenny and three seconds of Irving. Show, you had two fan-favorites on your hands. They were awesome characters, who drawn both POC and non-POC viewers, almost universally loved. And you've traded them for Hawley and Katrina, and, to lesser extent for Henry and Abraham. Show, what are you even doing? Producers, don't you have people who gauge audience reaction on social media and forums concerning characters and storylines? We don't live in Nielsen's box age anymore, people have both alternatives in terms of entertainment and means of communication. Stubbornly chanting "artistic integrity" and going against the audience is suicide. Why even do this?
• Katrina. Must I say more? I detest her. I find both her demeanor, overall appearance, line delivery, mannerisms suitable for a throw-away bodice ripper, but not for this show. Katia Winter doesn't have acting chops, and also she doesn't have chemistry with anyone, be it Abraham, Ichabod or Abbie. Granted, her storyline and dialogue is often ridiculous, but, for example, Jenny could have been one-note Sarah Connor clone with the material they first gave her, but the actress actively elevated that material. Right now Katrina and her overall part in storyline almost singlehandedly ruins the show for me.
• All that Demon Fetus Storyline. It was complete waste of time. It gave us even more Katrina. If Moloch would have actually risen it would have been too soon, and when he failed to rise it seems that we lost last non-woobiefied villain of the story, and will have more Henry, and by extension, even more Crane Family Drama instead. OH JOY.

All and all, if the show continues in the same direction I don't know if I continue watching it. Edited November 4, 2014 by Artesia

[DearEvette]

I have no use for the Hawley character, so I have to ask: how has the larger fandom response to him been? Here at PTV it seems pretty mixed, but what about on other sites, boards, etc?

 

 

I’ve visited a few tumblr sites and a couple of other message boards.  Some seemed gung ho on an Abbie/Nick hookup until it was discovered that he and Jenny used to knock boots and then it was “Ewww…hell no!”   Some resent the screen time he commands from Jenny/Irving.  And there are a few that can’t stand him.

 

 

Yeah, this is how I read it too.  I actually like Hawley and think the actor brings a lot of charm to the role.  I think he works equally well with both Abbie & Ichabod.  I do wish he didn't have a past with Jenny.  Feels unnecessarily soapy and this show and these actors are better than that.

 

As I see it, the issue with him is really the issue with the whole season so far.  It is  a matter of pacing.  The storytelling feels like a lot of stuff being said, nothing is happening. 

 

I can't help but wonder if  reactions to Hawley wouldn't be so mixed if he hadn't been in four episodes and in a way that he felt shoe horned in.  I think if done right, if say he'd been included along with Jenny all the time he might have been better received.  As it is it feels like he's displacing her because they have the same skill set and the obvious question is why do they need Hawley when they already have Jenny?

 

I think even this episode with Katrina might have even been better received if we already hadn't had so many save Katrina episodes in tandem with so the already many 'a Ben Franklin object saves the day' episodes.

 

They are squandering the extra episodes and wasting a lot of good talent in the process.

[Fable]

While I generally don't hate Katrina, I prefer her in small doses.  A whole episode centered around her brought the mood and the dynamic of this episode to a screeching halt.   Even the interaction between Crane and Abbie, which is usually lighthearted and fun, was strained.   This week was so tense with very little fun.   Even Ichabod (who I usually love) was annoying.   I don't know how much more I can take of the Cranes angsting over their poor dear son and their belief that he can be redeemed.  That has to be the worst arc on this show, and it's killing my good will. 

 

Even though this show often borders on ridiculous,  I'm usually always entertained each week  because I really l enjoy the main characters, meaning Jenny, Irving, Crane and Abbie.  This week, we had no Jenny and a blink-and-you-missed-it Irving siting, and as I said, even the scenes between Crane and Abbie were joyless and dull.  

 

This is actually the first episode I absolutely couldn't stand, and I'm not ready to throw in the towel, but I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

[Yolapukka]

The lost little boy hiding in nasty ol' Henry keeps recalling to my mind, the movie  "The Celll" concerning a psychologist who travels into the unconscious mind of a serial killer in order to learn the whereabouts of his latest victim before she dies, which hinges on communicating with his childhood self. Towards the end she has to essentially kill that child in order to release him from the torment his adult self causes. (Really silly overwrought movie, visually stunning but rather empty, sort of like Katrina, really.) I could get behind Sleepy Hollow cutting out the annoying sentimentality of the Cranes' need to "save" their lost boy by essentially releasing that part of his soul away from adult Henry leaving the rotten jerk to enjoy his own smarmy remarks, evil smirks, and seniors discounts without whining about his mommy and Daddy issues. He's his own man , not a child, it was a mistake making him the spawn of Ichabod and that flame-haired, smug asshole he married.

 

 Despite the title of Sleepy Hollow pointing to Ichabod as the lead, I've felt that it was a shared position between Abbie and himself. Certainly that's how it was when the show was working better than it is now. The show feels off-balance when the writing and production step away from that partnership. I think one of the reasons I find Katrina's useless self so irritating is her mere presence tampers with that balance. Add to that, she's annoying as heck and she has a hairstyle that takes me out of every scene she's in because of it's cheesy romance-novel cover-art look and to me she's nothing more than a misstep that needs to be eased out of the narrative. Or blown up real good, either is fine.

Edited November 4, 2014 by yuggapukka

[savinggrace]

I hate to see Hawley's character (who I love) being thrown under the bus when he really isn't the problem with the show. Jenny and Irving are being sidelined because of the Crane Familiy Drama we are being forced to endure. Henry, Katrina and Headed Horseman's screen time has increased dramatically and their story is the least interesting one. Hawley is on Team Witness which means his screen time runs concurrent the people whose story we (or at least I) care about the most. I have no problem with him because he's funny and brings a different perspective and personality to the Team Witness dynamic. While Hawley has a similar skill set to Jenny his role on the show is different. I see him supplementing the storyline rather than replacing anyone especially if he's being brought in for a romantic angle. I welcome any character that gives us more insight into the Mills sister and their story  -- and who annoys Crane.

 

I do wonder why no one complains as much about Reyes who is essentially doing EXACTLY what Irving used to do which is be a tough, skeptical boss turned believer. One of the biggest mistakes plotwise was to remove Irving from action and place him in the psych ward. The team was just hitting its stride with him firmly on board. He could have remained police chief and alotted Abbie and Crane the resources to solve their cases without all the obstacles and sneaking around. They basically brought in Reyes and her behavior and demeanor has followed the exact trajectory of Irving's from the first season. A new police chief was not needed.

[Helena Dax]

 

 

Crane is all embarrassed and comments that the outfit is inappropriate and highly provocative.

 

He's used to see Abbie in that kind of clothes. Seeing Katrina is different; he must feel she's half naked, showing the shape of her legs like that!

 

 

From the beginning I always felt that Crane's marriage to Katrina is holding him back from being the witness he is supposed to be.

 

 Maybe, but what if it isn't a mistake? What if that's exactly what the writers want? Hopefully there will be seven seasons. There's room for the characters to make mistakes; it'd be boring otherwise. 

 

I enjoyed the episode. Katrina isn't my favourite character but I was interested in what was happening. And I think her faith in Henry could have some interesting consequences. By example, maybe Moloch tries to kill Henry and she dies saving him. Maybe he  kills her and that makes Ichabod finally understand his son can't be redeemed. So I don't see  that "let's save Henry" as something wrong in itself. It's just part of the story.

 

This season has two new characters. One is a white guy and the other one is a WOC. I agree that Jenny's MIA and that's a huge mistake but since I'm sure Abbie's backstory will be soon the center of the story (and we'll see then Jenny and maybe the mother), I want to wait until the second half of the season to say whether or not the white characters are taking over the show.

 

I don't think Abbie's role has been secondary to the Cranes. We've been visiting her past: the social worker who helped her, Reyes, Corbin's son... Hawley's attracted to her. And in this episode she's achieved something  important: she's in the sheriff's good graces again. 

 

There was a post where someone complained about Abbie going alone after the bad guys while Ichabod was taking care of Katrina. I just don't understand it.  The other chance was to send Ichabod alone after the bad guys and send Abbie -the cop- to take care of Katrina.  That would have been terribly sexist.  

 

 

They basically brought in Reyes and her behavior and demeanor has followed the exact trajectory of Irving's from the first season. A new police chief was not needed.

 

Was Irving from Sleepy Hollow? I mean, I'm guessing the point of Reyes is that she can be an obstacle -things can't be too easy- and that she knew the Mills, so she can serve to that part of the story too.

[Ann Mack]

I hate to see Hawley's character (who I love) being thrown under the bus when he really isn't the problem with the show. Jenny and Irving are being sidelined because of the Crane Familiy Drama we are being forced to endure. Henry, Katrina and Headed Horseman's screen time has increased dramatically and their story is the least interesting one. Hawley is on Team Witness which means his screen time runs concurrent the people whose story we (or at least I) care about the most. I have no problem with him because he's funny and brings a different perspective and personality to the Team Witness dynamic. While Hawley has a similar skill set to Jenny his role on the show is different. I see him supplementing the storyline rather than replacing anyone especially if he's being brought in for a romantic angle. I welcome any character that gives us more insight into the Mills sister and their story  -- and who annoys Crane.

 

I do wonder why no one complains as much about Reyes who is essentially doing EXACTLY what Irving used to do which is be a tough, skeptical boss turned believer. One of the biggest mistakes plotwise was to remove Irving from action and place him in the psych ward. The team was just hitting its stride with him firmly on board. He could have remained police chief and alotted Abbie and Crane the resources to solve their cases without all the obstacles and sneaking around. They basically brought in Reyes and her behavior and demeanor has followed the exact trajectory of Irving's from the first season. A new police chief was not needed.

 

I like Hawley as well and I don't see him being as much of an annoyance as the whole "redeem Henry" storyline. I hope whatever casual arrangement he and Jenny had is not an obstacle if he is indeed intended to be Abbie's love interest. I think their banter will be refreshing and cute. Lord knows right now Ichabod is not high on my list as someone who is suitable for Abbie (not sure if I even care whether there is some romantic later SL for them, cause right now he is not worthy of bad ass Abbie). Hawley may have some past with Jenny but he has never lied nor did an about face on Abbie. He has stated specifically his interest and has not waive from them (privateer or not at least he is true to himself).

 

The whole Crane drama is what is throwing the show really off balance. I would love to see more interactions that involved Irving and Jenny and not another oh lets go save Katrina's ass again story line. The writers are destroying everything that was inspiring and refreshing about season 1. 

 

As for Sheriff Reyes really don't have many qualms with her as she is shown about as much as needed. But I do think at some point they are going to have to release Irving from prison and it will probably take Reyes seeing with her own eyes that strange shit happens in Sleepy Hollow. They could lessen some of the screen time of Henry, we get it you are the new big bad but they are over using him which dramatically lessens his impact. As far as Katrina and the epic love that is the Crane's the show is trying to hard to sell it and most people just aren't buying it.

 

Well here's to hoping the show gets its mojo back cause right now its failing in a huge way in my eyes!

[phoenics]

 

From what I have read, it's not FOX that is forcing these changes - surprisingly. It's the writers themselves. Just from what I read.

 

 

Remember last season, when they had the Horseman in that Masonic cell, and Crane is interrogating him. Crane says "Feeling less than robust?" and the Horseman responds by angrily pulling at the chains.

 

Remember Crane's response.....? "Good."  Now picture it in your heads, his facial expression, narrowed eyes, the way he emphasized that word.

 

"Good...." That's how I feel about the ratings drop.

 

1.  Egads - so the writers are torpedoing themselves in the foot?  Let's say they didn't necessarily cast the show to be diverse, it just ended up that way.  I wonder if they woke up one day and screamed, thinking the show was too "dark" and decided they better "fix it" before anyone noticed?  Heh - I made myself laugh at the thought... although I can almost see that being true.  I definitely think they caved to "Pro-Katrina" pressure and are now paying the price for it.

 

2.  Your "Good." is EXACTLY what I said (in the same way) when I saw the ratings.  And then I cheered.  If this show is to be saved - the writers HAVE to see that they have messed up and that they need to fix it.

 

If they don't and they persist in the stupid Katrina-files, then I will definitely tune out and watch this once great show go down in flames - gleefully.  The only thing that will make me sad is Nicole Beharie and Orlando.  Lyndie burned her bridges with me by "campaigning" for Katia/Katrina.  I'm still salty about that.

[Ann Mack]

If they don't and they persist in the stupid Katrina-files, then I will definitely tune out and watch this once great show go down in flames - gleefully.  The only thing that will make me sad is Nicole Beharie and Orlando.  Lyndie burned her bridges with me by "campaigning" for Katia/Katrina.  I'm still salty about that.

 

I keep seeing this statement that Lyndie is all "pro-Ichatrina" does anyone have the link or the video. She may be your friend and roommate but I wouldn't be staking my own credibility as a believable actress by supporting someone with limited acting skills that Katia has demonstrated so far. If you have it can you please provide it. Thanks.

[shanndee]

I also think that actors are paid to "do promo" for their shows. So, in that regard, they would have to tow the company line.

[DeLurker]

I hate to see Hawley's character (who I love) being thrown under the bus when he really isn't the problem with the show. Jenny and Irving are being sidelined because of the Crane Familiy Drama we are being forced to endure.

Hawley is the unfortunate new character who has been fairly visible in the season when you have Jenny and Irving, established characters (and clearly fan favorites) that have been noticeably absent.  Jenny is just inexplicably absent - they could have tossed out a line that she was on a mission to acquire some talisman, but nope.  Irving's season 2 started out interesting with him being locked up in Tarrytown (which because of years of my son's obsession with Jay Jay the Jet Plane I always think of that show) and Henry having him sign away his soul....and then nothing.  And more nothing.

 

I do wonder why no one complains as much about Reyes who is essentially doing EXACTLY what Irving used to do which is be a tough, skeptical boss turned believer.

They threw us a tidbit when they introduced her that she knew the Mills family when she was a young street cop and had some history with the family.  I thought that would have lead to a larger exploration of Abbie and Jenny's younger years, their Mom, their family history...but they really did not take it any farther than the tidbit.  A potentially interesting storyline totally dropped.  Considering how Crane's family and the Mills' are supposed to be intertwined from wayback when, it seems relevant to the larger story and odd since we are getting tons of detail about the Crane's from 200+ years ago.  And I don't recall Reyes being integrated into the main storylines.  She's thrown up a road block or two, but she really hasn't gotten that much screentime.

 

The whole Crane drama is what is throwing the show really off balance.

So this.

[Helena Dax]

I forgot, I'm glad Abbie told Ichabod to stop his "back in my times we had REAL democracy" fantasy. 

[ChelseaNH]

Abbie was marginalized in this episode

 

I don't think she's marginilized in terms of the show; she had plenty of screentime doing useful things awesomely.  However, she is being pushed aside in the witness partnership.  For now, at least.

 

I think this episode would have worked better as a two-parter.  There was so much stuff crammed into the episode that they were even more perfunctory than usual about the plot contrivances.  And there would have been room to include Irving and Jenny.

 

I'm not a parent, but I think the primary emotion that the Cranes feel toward Henry is guilt.  Ichabod can't love Jeremy; he never knew him.  He loves the idea of Jeremy, who he could have been.  Katrina at least held a physical baby in her arms, but she was gone before Jeremy developed any kind of personality, so again, she loves who he could have been.  Henry -- the actuality of their son -- has not presented many lovable qualities.  And how would Henry's repudiation of Moloch work out?

 

This leads me to another question: What has the Headless Horseman been doing all this time, other than mooning over Katrina?  The show does many things well, but plotting isn't one of them.  What I'd really like to see is the characters acting like people pursuing specific agendas, rather than being animate figurines that the writers rearrange as they see fit.  So Moloch has a plan, with roles for Henry and Abraham, but Henry and Abraham have plans of their own, influenced or constrained by Moloch or each other or Team Witness.  It would be nice to see Team Witness get a handle on this war, rather than reacting constantly to whatever the bad guys dish out -- figuring out what resources they need, and finding ways to protect themselves, their allies and their supplies.  The show is fun; I'd like to see it get equally as smart.

[DearEvette]

Egads - so the writers are torpedoing themselves in the foot?  Let's say they didn't necessarily cast the show to be diverse, it just ended up that way.  I wonder if they woke up one day and screamed, thinking the show was too "dark" and decided they better "fix it" before anyone noticed?  Heh - I made myself laugh at the thought... although I can almost see that being true.  I definitely think they caved to "Pro-Katrina" pressure and are now paying the price for it.

 

 

Yeah, apparently during a Q&A the writers said the Network is insistent on keeping the story about Abbie & Crane -- those two front and center.  So for once it isn't the Network that is falling down on the job here.  Remember, last season's ratings were great.  There was no reason to think people weren't responsive to a diverse cast.  There were articles written about SH's success attributing some of that success to its diversity.

 

One thing I did notice is that the people credited with the writing for individual episodes are different this season from last.  Orci, Kurtzman, Goffman and Iscove are credited with writing the lion's share of the episodes last season.  This season they are only on the first two episodes.  Not surprising these two feel the most like they are following the mythology.  I think there is a vision and outline for the season, but honestly it feels like these new writers are bungling the execution of it.

[HalcyonDays]

1.  Egads - so the writers are torpedoing themselves in the foot?  Let's say they didn't necessarily cast the show to be diverse, it just ended up that way.  I wonder if they woke up one day and screamed, thinking the show was too "dark" and decided they better "fix it" before anyone noticed?  Heh - I made myself laugh at the thought... although I can almost see that being true.  I definitely think they caved to "Pro-Katrina" pressure and are now paying the price for it.

 

2.  Your "Good." is EXACTLY what I said (in the same way) when I saw the ratings.  And then I cheered.  If this show is to be saved - the writers HAVE to see that they have messed up and that they need to fix it.

 

If they don't and they persist in the stupid Katrina-files, then I will definitely tune out and watch this once great show go down in flames - gleefully.  The only thing that will make me sad is Nicole Beharie and Orlando.  Lyndie burned her bridges with me by "campaigning" for Katia/Katrina.  I'm still salty about that.

 

Glad you think so too - because in my head, I was hoping for the ratings to be crap. I really was - because as you said, The Katrina-files are so dull and boring and typical and - meh. It makes me sad for Nicole Beharie, Orlando Jones, Lyndie Greenwood and Tom Mison. All four are superior actors that shouldn't have to deal with such utter bullshit that this show has devolved to. I mean, that foursome is spectacular in terms of chemistry and ability and the like. Yet, this idiot show separates them? Seriously? People wondering why Orlando didn't tweet this episode - are you surprised? He's done, like I'm very very close to being done.

 

I've long thought that Mark Goffman is the problem. He is the Head Producer/showrunner of SH, and is constantly promoting all things Katrina. In interviews he has been the (only) one promoting and gushing over the epic love that is Katrina/Ichabod and Katrina herself. He is the one who has written 90% of the Katrina-centric episodes of SH. I am actually really surprised that he didn't write this one. I honestly feel that he is messing with the good of SH and fucking it up big time.

[blugirlami21]

The only problem I have with giving the show time to have Ichabod make such a mistake is that we may not be on the air long enough for it to happen.  The focus on their marriage and/or Katrina is not what we came back for imo.  The first season was largely about Abbie and Ichabod.  Katrina was there but she was largely off screen in purgatory.  I feel like too much time is being spent on Henry's redemption and Katrina trying to force Ichabod to feel love for a killer.  The lack of focus this season is showing in the ratings.

 

When you have a good thing going and then you take away half of what makes it work and amp up the things that weren't originally a part of the equation, the show suffers.  Katrina and Henry having so much screen time is not who I want to see.  Hawley should have worked as a new character but they did too much too soon and his former relationship with Jenny in addition to her continued unexplained absence has made him a hard pill to swallow.  I don't understand why we can't have a line or two to explain the absence of such an important character in Abbie's life. 

 

I don't know if it can be turned around this late in the game.  It kind of reminds me of Grimm.  Grimm was a great show for a while but too much time spent on the villain and the loss of what made the main character special is not a reason to tune in week after week.

[HalcyonDays]

Goffman to me is the problem. Not the new writers, not FOX. The new writers are told what idea to write. Goffman has long been a Katrina-stan, so he's pushing her to the forefront. The writers have no reason to consistantly be writing Ichabod as so bloody stupid with regards to their son. Truly. He is an utter moron for his beliefs and Abbie deserves better. So much better.

 

Even Hawley would be like, "Excuse me?" to the stuff that Katrina tries to pull. This show would have been so much better, so much more interesting if Katrina was evil. Seriously.

 

It's character assassination to me - so many good characters (Abbie, Ichabod, Jenny, Frank) all sacrificed on the alter of Henry/Katrina. All destroyed and marginalized to promote those two... Yes Fringe people I get you want Noble to get his Emmy and yes Goffman, I know you muse over Katia, but you are ruining your show. Destroying it just to suit your own personal whims and fantasies...So. Much. Hate....

[phoenics]

I think this episode would have worked better as a two-parter.  There was so much stuff crammed into the episode that they were even more perfunctory than usual about the plot contrivances.  And there would have been room to include Irving and Jenny.

 

 

Dear God - one episode focused on Katrina was enough - you want to stretch it to two!?!

 

I feel faint.

[Shanna]

. I'm still trying to figure out what's happening here. There's part of me still hoping there's a turnaround coming and that this is just a momentary bit of sophomore slump..

Me too. I tuned back in this season all excited an there was a doofy guy making eyes at Abbie and Jenny and I was like what? Do not mess with Abbie/ichabod!!! They are the show for me and this is not actually about diversity to me although it's a nice side bonus, it is about fantastic actresses and characters (Abbie and Jenny) being sidelined for stupid ones like Katrina and new people I don't give a shit about.

Katrina moments last season were best in tiny tiny bits. The only Katrina heavy episode I liked was the one with ichabods ex because she obviously murdered the shit out of her so can we make her evil already? and now demon baby??? Really show? Wtf!!! And I do not want to save Henry thank you very much he is evil just kill him with fire.

Whoever said they have defanged all the bad guys is right especially headless who was badass last season and now is a mopey goober. Katrina ruins everything.

As for Irving, his replacement is uninteresting, and as a consequence of him going to the nuthouse, the police element has been minimized and oddly enough I actually miss it. The show framework had suffered.

I just cannot understand why anyone would take a show that worked, and much with everything that worked to make sure it doesn't work as well. I have enjoyed many of the episodes this season but this was the worst of the bunch and it is because of Katrina and her damn demon baby. Although I missed the Abbie Ichabod stuff at the beginning so maybe I need to go back and catch that.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Shanna

[DeLurker]

In interviews he (Goffman) has been the (only) one promoting and gushing over the epic love that is Katrina/Ichabod and Katrina herself. He is the one who has written 90% of the Katrina-centric episodes of SH.

It's like when someone is in love with a sketchy person but can't see the lover's faults and keep thinking if their friends and family just got to know him/her better they too would see that wunnerful person.

Goffman - we are not going to love Katrina. You're in love with Katie Winter and her boobage. We've all been there, but not at the expense of a show.

[Happytobehere]

I was really hoping for Katrina to die, the episode started off so great too with Crane's voting rants and the entire opening scene. 

 

And Crane didn't know CPR 2 episodes ago, now he does?

But this time Ichy needed to save the special snowflake. We know Abbie is just a means to an end for the great white hype.

I have read the postings both here and other places about this episode and I know I will be DVRing for the remainder of the season, and I will be ff through all things Crane. There will be no season three for me (although at the rate the ratings are dropping there may be no season three period). Unless some radical changes, and by that I mean a return to what made a Season One great.

[vanarnd1]

I don't understand how anyone in charge thinks its a good idea to base an episode around Katrina. She is a massive drain on the show and usually turn the channel when it is just Ichabod and Katrina talking about their "love".

 

The best part of the episode(and it seems to be the case for others as well) was the scene at the voting booth. Why should the Ichabbie relationship be a footnote to the Crane family drama? Crane and Katrina vouching for Henry at all costs is a real turn off for me watching the show. Abbie risking herself for the Cranes is a unsettling parallel to the end of Season 1 and I fear at this point it will be a recurring theme in Season 2.

 

Thankfully this show is on Fox so it has a margin for error when it comes to ratings, but the writers are losing viewers that are very hard to gain back. I hope it can be turned around because I really enjoy watching this show at times and don't want to it to end up looking back on it as a missed opportunity, but the show is heading in that direction.

[Happytobehere]

I shouldn't have watched the eppy. I barely watched as it is - but it was extremely disappointing. What stood out for me is that withe the heavy focus on Katrina/Ichy/Crane family drama, it was suddenly BLATANTLY apparent that the POC characters have been marginalized and turned into tokens.As a woman of color, this makes me angry - though I'm not surprised. Abbie is now officially nothing more than a Crane sidekick - looks like that NYT article actually had it right - we just didn't know it yet. Irving had what - .3 seconds of airtime? I find it extremely interesting that he didn't even livetweet during the episode. And Lyndie Greenwood is probably rethinking all of her blind "Katia is great!" nonsense while she pushed for more Katrina for her "friend and roommate". How's that working for you Lyndie? Katrina and Hawley have taken YOUR screentime. Yeah - be down for the "team" if you want - the writers will always have THEIR backs - not yours.This show is working so hard to pull in the white male demographic that they are alienating their core fanbase. I guess they don't really want it?Yes. I'm bitter. Clearly the show has been nailed by network interference and it's destroyed the magic of the show. For some reason, the suits think the Cranes carry this show and that's what people want. Yet - since S1, when the show focused heavily on CFD, the ratings went down!Get a damn clue, writers! And stop marginalizing the POC on this show.

BRAVA! Perfect, plain and simple. I read somewhere that the writers from season one were replaced. I'm sure the interview process for the new writers went something like this:

Show: We are retooling the show, what should we do?

New Writer: well I know that all my friends are really troubled by the heavy focus on non-criminal, non-domestic black people, and the lack of screen time for Katrina, because after all it was her and Ichabod who drew us to the show. Now I know that might sound racist, but it's not because some of my best friends are black. Did you hear the new Kanye song, it's awesome.

Show: that's some brilliant thinking. You're hired.

[phoenics]

I just realized another reason this episode was so horrible.

 

Last season, we had a really great balance on the show.  Ichabod was the sole good guy from the past dude... that made him "special".  Abbie, Jenny and Irving were from this time - plus Corbin.  And it WORKED.  When Ichabod is able to stand out as the good guy from the past, with weirdness and all of that righteous indignation, the show just worked.  Abbie would "get him" and no one else would and it just worked.

 

Last night, it was flipped entirely.  Abbie was the ONLY major player in this episode who was from our time.  Irving and Reyes' .3 seconds of screen time don't count.  The rest of the players were Abraham, Henry, Ichabod and Katrina.

 

And it did NOT WORK!

 

The magic of this show is Ichabbie and the tension that erupts because they are so different.  When Ichabod exists in our time and is a "man out of time", it WORKS!  When Abbie is the straight man to his funny man, it WORKS!  But last night - it was too serious - because it shows Ichabod trying desperately to keep his past, plus that past (Katrina) pulling him to help the rest of their past (Henry).  That dog just won't hunt.  It's the same as if Superman could bring his whole planet to live here on earth with him.  Suddenly, superman doesn't seem so special then, does he?  It's the whole "orphan" aspect that makes it a powerful story.

 

It's too bad the writers went the whole Katrina/Henry/CFD route - they missed something really special.

 

Also, this season - the writers have reduced Ichabod to this "super-brilliant Mark Sue" who knows exactly the right historical tidbit to save the day, while at the SAME time, the writers have made him utterly stupid and unintelligent the moment Katrina is there.  I know it's supposed to be romantic that he loses it around her - but that's only if you buy into the epic love - which most fans clearly (ratings, hello!) DON'T.  The result?  Ichabod is now unlikeable and fans are rooting for Jenny to take over as 2nd witness.

[JayKay]

Who decided that a spider-induced demon pregnancy was a good idea? What year is it? How can that still be an actual plotline for female characters? Hell, at least in Prometheus, the woman got to have some agency saving herself. All I could think everytime they showed Katrina's belly was "gross" and that they must have been counting on a deus ex machina if they're not at least pulling her jeans off.

God, imagine how much different this episode would have been if at the end Katrina went "You know what? I'm changing my vote. Abbie's right." I'm just saying... A couple centuries later and Katrina still votes for the old white dude. Are they even paying attention to their own writing?

I miss scary Headless Horseman. Watching milquetoast powdered wig guy mope around in that awesome wardrobe makes me sad. Even his posture is disappointing.

Evil pregnancies are an automatic thumbs down with me, so I'm just going to call this episode one massive misfire and mostly forget it exists.

[Mia Nina]

 

Happytobehere: I have read the postings both here and other places about this episode and I know I will be DVRing for the remainder of the season, and I will be ff through all things Crane.

 

That's what I've been doing since mid S1, when it became clear that Abbie wasn't getting the development she deserved and was instead shoved into the backseat. Took me less than 15 minutes to watch this one. Heh.

 

And hey, she got to vote and impart important life lessons while doing it!

Edited November 5, 2014 by Mia Nina

[ChelseaNH]

one episode focused on Katrina was enough - you want to stretch it to two!?!

 

If it were stretched to two, it wouldn't be so focused on Katrina.

[fantique]

So incredibly disappointing.  Sleepy Hollow needs new showrunners, STAT.  This is the problem with Orci and Kurtzman - they get shows started OK, but they suck as showrunners.  Fringe went from being a noisy mess in Season 1 to a great show in Season 2 and beyond, once Kurtzman and Orci got out of the way and they brought in different showrunners.  However, Fringe did this after 13 episodes or so... and Sleepy Hollow is running out of time.

Agreed with most of your post but actually I don't think Kurtzman and Orci are the problem seeing as they haven't written any episode this season and from interviews and appearances I am guessing they are no longer hands on with the project.

I said it elsewhere, might as well say it here: FRANKLIN PRISM POWER!

Thank you for the Sailor Moon reference.

 

This is weird. I want to use an expression another poster used for another thread. They said "I know it's possible to be overwhelmed. I know it's possible to be underwhelmed. Is it possible to just be 'whelmed'? " That's how I feel. I just thought "Well, that happened." I usually rush to see the new episode and I knew this week's episode wasn't going to focus on a character I love so I wasn't eager, but I really didn't expect to be aggravated. I don't like Katrina (ugh... why are you ruining witches for me show?) but her being there had never detracted from the more enjoyable bits of the show for me, I could ignore her.

 

This episode was just blah. It's sad because there was a lot of production and directing efforts to make this episode epic and awesome looking. I don't get why the writers want to introduce serious romance in a cooky, crazy and whimsical show. I don't need to see the Cranes' epic love, just tell me he values his family strongly and have Crane talk about his family being the last remnant of his old life. I don't know why they are trying to sell me their love story because I don't care either way. I just want to see the whole team fighting monsters and hanging out in the Team Witness hideouts. 

 

 

WRT what's wrong with the show, they definitely went off the rails. I think that the previous season had the perfect balance of the show not taking itself too seriously while keeping the characters earnest. This year they are trying to be "deep" and have grand storytelling and it's not working because the premise is a bit silly. 

I also agree that Ichabod looks better when separated from his contemporaries, because it creates a nice contrast to play with. When all the time travellers are here, it's just a bunch of people speaking oddly in weird attire. They also should have been smarter with the use of Jenry. They should have limited his interactions with Team Witness because the altercation between him and Ichabod was actually a very good acting scene but it left less impact because they saw each other recently with Jenry sneering at Ichabod. I also don't know why they want the redemption story. I would have been more impressed if they showed Ichabod and Katrina being heartbroken by fighting their son but doing it because they have no choice. 

 

I also think they had originally had Abbie staying in Purgatory longer but were told to have the witness together sooner. While that would decrease the Abbie/Ichabod interactions, Jenny would have been more around because they would be searching for a way to get her back and Katrina could be a bad spy on Headless-with-a-head. It would have forced them to deal with Abbie's side of the story more as being in that dollhouse was sure to bring up a lot about her past and have a few interaction between Abbie and Ichabod/Jenny through the com system Katrina used in Purgatory and not showing her a lot would have had them cyber assaulted. 

I just feel like they thought they had the whole "fun show" thing down and the audience was attached enough to the viewers and decided to be more "intense". In trying to fix what didn't go as planned last season, they made it worse. But that's just because their conception of Katrina was everything and nothing at once. She just had too many attributes. They should have just had her join the team, be a useful witch. I think because everyone is unconvinced by the Cranes' love, they feel the need to try and sell it. I think if we all bought into their relationship, they would had her be evil.

I also think that Kurtzman and Orci are big on the mythology aspect of genre shows and with their absence the overarching mythology seems to be put on the back burner. Len Wiseman is really into the creature of the week because of the semi-horror aspect so that's why they are still here but tie in less well with the Apocalypse theme than last year. This year it's just "Oh Jenry is up to no good and made it happen" and it's not even on Moloch's orders! It's just him torturing his parents. Less compelling than seeing the ground work for this Epic Battle to come.

 

Random info: From the production numbers for the episodes, it seems the Pied Piper episode was meant to be before the Root of All Evil episode. I think that would have been better with the pacing and also less of a gap between Irving appearances.

Edited November 5, 2014 by fantique

[rue721]

This episode would have worked so much better if Henry's plan to impregnate his mother actually *had* killed her. Then Ichabod might have actually had a dilemma, since obviously he'd have some trouble with the Save Henry cause after *that.* I also would have preferred to have baby!Muloch out in the world with Henry needing to "care" for him. That might give at least somewhat of a twist to his "shitty childhood" SL.

 

Given that Katrina's character/story is terribly written, a walking stereotype, and a bad fit for the rest of the show, I think that the actress who plays her is fine and tries to make it work with the shitty material she's got. I don't lay the blame for the shoe-horning in of an outdated mess of a character at the actress's feet, I lay it at the network's and the EPs'. I tried to give this episode a chance, but a Demon Pregnancy SL is just SO CLICHE that as soon as it became clear that that's what the MotW would be this time, I was pretty much done. Also, Ichabod getting pissy about his wife's clothes not being modest enough and complaining to Abbie about how real democracy meant that only property owning white men could vote, within the same episode, made me feel like whoever wrote this episode didn't get the memo that his character isn't supposed to be an ass. Or maybe just straight up has issues with misogyny since when Katerina was dead or whatever from childbirth, the writer also had Ichabod leap from saving his damsel in distress with the prism McGuffin to saving her with newly-acquired CPR while Abbie (the supercop from the club shootout, of course) just sat there like a dumbass.

 

Still, imo, the voting argument was great, and I especially loved that out of all the holiday specials a show could do, of course Sleepy Hollow would do *election day.* That cracked me up. I also did like that Ichabod has been spoiled in his time here, apparently, and was getting all snobby about their slow dial up.

 

Couple things that especially bugged me about the plotting in this episode in particular:

 

-- Abbie just sitting there not doing CPR while Crane howled in Katrina's face, because JUST THIS SAME EPISODE they made a big point about how she was such a cool-headed, quick-thinking BAMF at the evil club. Abbie was clearly given whatever abilities/feelings that the plot necessitated, with no thought to her coherence as a character. Since fundamentally, I tune in for her and her banter with Ichabod, that got under my skin.

 

-- Reyes's compliment to Abbie at the demon club seemed like it was setting up a "Reyes mentors/mothers Abbie" SL to me. I think because Reyes also was connected to Abbie's mother in other episodes. I find that irritating because Abbie actually already has a family and family relationships to explore -- with Jenny. It again makes Reyes redundant. Are they just going to give facsimiles of all of Jenny and Frank's storylines to Reyes instead, and keep Jenny and Frank off screen? WHY. Why even bring in Reyes in that case?

 

Crane Family Drama

 

I'm actually fine with the Crane Family Drama being *a part* of the show, because I do care about Ichabod and am interested in an SL about his feelings about being a husband/father. However, that SL is only going to be interesting and have any meaning if it's not the only SL on there! There's no way to stretch that storyline for a full hour, and why would you want to, when HERE'S THE CO-LEAD OF THE SHOW ABBIE ffs, with all her storylines apparently on ice.

 

The storyline of Ichabod wanting to be there for Jenry but maybe being too late is a CLEAR KNOCKOFF of the storyline that Abbie had with Jenny last year, also about wanting to be there for her sister but maybe being too late! Why was the Abbie/Jenny SL apparently dropped for a shoddy knock off version of the same SL with Ichabod and Jenry? I'm fine with there being an Ichabod/Jenry SL on the show, but as a compliment to, not a replacement of, Abbie's much more interesting and much better executed SL about virtually the same theme.

 

There's this gaping hole where Jenny should be altogether. For example, I thought the episode with Corbin's son was fine, but seeing as Abbie ALREADY has a resentful sibling -- why was Joe brought in when the story would have had more depth and could have otherwise been basically the same if they'd just not introduced Joe and given that story to Jenny instead? Stuff like the needless introduction of Joe as Abbie's surrogate (white, natch) sibling makes me wonder if episodes were specifically retooled to *not* include Jenny. It honestly seems to me like they're trying to write Jenny off the show.

 

And meanwhile, basically the only thing to even happen with Frank so far (and I love Orlando Jones, as do the vast majority of fans it seems like -- why is he never on screen?!) is that he sold his soul and was being tempted to destroy the man who maimed his daughter. FINE LET'S DO THAT STORYLINE THEN. Frank trying to help his daughter and/or dealing with the fact that what's done is done and/or trying to get revenge for his daughter's sake and to assuage any guilt he feels would be a PERFECT counterpoint to the Jenry/Ichabod !redemption story. Why not just go ahead with that story they already teased and that would fit in great with other stories they're doing? Tbh I would think that Frank and Ichabod would be PERFECT mirrors/foils for each other, esp since Frank has now sold his soul -- so it's just bizarre, even just from a writing standpoint, that he's MIA. From a fan standpoint of course I hate it. Frank, too, I guess they've decided to write off the show?!

 

Diversity

 

I do think that this is a pretty conscious "whitening up" of the cast, though on who's call I don't know. It's the obvious explanation for why Jenny and Frank, who were both popular characters very closely intertwined with the rest of the characters and story, would be written off to the extent they have been (down to between zero and .2 seconds of screen time per episode, apparently) -- I can't honestly think of another way to make that explicable.

 

The introduction of Hawley and the huge expansion of Katerina's role also get under my skin because both "happen to be" the biggest stereotypes for white characters that I can even think of:  the swashbuckling antihero and the powerless damsel in distress. Even if they hadn't seemed to displace other characters, I *still* wouldn't want them taking a major role in the story just because of that. No thank you, I didn't sign up for a ride on the stereotype express. 

[wayne67]

For me I find the show has no feeling of urgency or real stakes.

 

Every other MOTW will bring about the apocalypse or be a piece of the apocalypse jigsaw all overseen by the single active Horseman of War Henry the boring.

 

I think the problem with Henry is that he's been given a cartoon villain reason for evil, a single rejection skewed to outlandish and unreasonable proportions indifferent to the deaths that causes eg Syndrome from Incredibles. It makes it hard to take him seriously. He's been nerfed, he's powerful but he's so childlike in his motivations that he doesn't achieve much of any merit.

 

On the other side we have Katrina spying on her former betrothed and son for her husband with the sometimes use of magic. I don't have a problem with the character it's just that she's gone from exposition witch damsel in distress in purgatory to confined double agent absent magical strength.

 

I may be alone in hoping that in future episodes she'll use more offensive magic like she did on Crane's fan girl and kick some minion butt or at least help in minimising the damage Henry does from episode to episode. If she doesn't become useful in the next episode or two I'll probably have to jettison this show from the must watch list to binge watch sometime way in the future list when I'm too lazy to do anything else.

 

I'm not into this show for any romance sub plots, I want axe wielding headless horseman causing chaos or undead frankenstein monsters being summoned for the good guys. Seriously what is up with Team Witness abandoning their allies after using them up ? It's becoming a seriously bad habit.

 

It'd be nice for Team Witness to have some reasoning why they spend time on such nonsense when they should be doing more useful stuff. Eg. monitoring the news for that patchwork soldier, freeing Irving from prison/psych ward, getting supernatural updates from both Jenny and Hawley (who they should reduce his screen time by about 40%) and checking on Katrina for intel updates when Headless is out. Along with doing their own supernatural sleuthing. At the moment I get the impression that they spend more time doing yoga than trying to stop the world from being plunged into Chaos.

 

I should not feel bad that Henry is being mean to Headless by exposing him to sunlight. Headless appears to have been woobiefied ?

Edited November 5, 2014 by wayne67

[Snookums]

Poor Caroline died just because she knew Ichabod, and it wasn't like she was involved in their activities.  She was just a bystander.

 

 

To be fair, it was Drowned Crazy Ex who killed Caroline, not Henry, so for once I can't blame him. Damn.

 

The flashbacks show that Ichabod and Katrina share a deep bond that can only be expressed by never combing their hair.

 

Whoever that Goth girl was, she's gonna be pissed that the hospital just let Abbie take her clothes. Corsets ain't cheap.

 

GAHHHH, Kat and Itch, yes, he's your kid, but when your kid has sworn fealty to Hell and rapes his mom with a demon spider, he's past the Neglected excuse. He's EVIL. 

 

Okay, let's discuss the number of times Ichabod and Abbie appear in places or do things that normally would throw up a billion red flags:

 

Abbie and Ichabod walking Katrina out of the hospital, bold as brass. NOBODY stops them; not Katrina's doctor, not the admitting nurse, nobody. Too bad Henry wasn't there, he coulda just yelled "EBOLA" and whomp, 21 day quarantine in tent on the lawn!

 

Ichabod at the raid of the "cult." How the hell did Reyes, who doesn't even want him around the station, come to say, Okay, sure, civilian, with no training and no protective gear, swing on into the middle of a firefight! I hate my job anyway, screw my pension! Everything about this damn episode was Idiot Plot, Deluxe Edition.

[Snookums]

. I really wish someone from the network had a job that included reading message boards.

 

 

They do! It's a POC whom they feature heavily on their Twitter profile while ignoring any and all things he/she is actually trying to tell them: "Guys, Katrina is a dead weight..." "Guys, EVERYONE is noticing that you sidelined two nonwhite characters..."

[Tippi Blevins]

On top of everything else that's dumb about the demon pregnancy, it seems like if you want to knock someone up, crawling into her mouth is a weird way to do it. I mean, I know they're not going to show a spider crawling into Katrina's lady business, but still. Everything about this plot was dumb, is what I'm trying to say.

 

What were the other corpses for? The ones in the secret society's secret lab? They were veiny like Katrina. Were they previous pregnancy attempts? How many poison demon spiders does Team Evil have?

[Artesia]

On top of everything else that's dumb about the demon pregnancy, it seems like if you want to knock someone up, crawling into her mouth is a weird way to do it. I mean, I know they're not going to show a spider crawling into Katrina's lady business, but still. Everything about this plot was dumb, is what I'm trying to say.

 

What were the other corpses for? The ones in the secret society's secret lab? They were veiny like Katrina. Were they previous pregnancy attempts? How many poison demon spiders does Team Evil have?

Now that's a good question. We were shown in the last episode that Jinkan (sp?) was an extremely rare substance, Henry even hatched an elaborate plan to obtain it. Then, at the end of the episode, we were shown that all substance from a bottle was transformed into a single spider by Henry. Then, in this episode, Ichabod read in Franklin's notes that Hellfire club experimented with demon pregnancies using said Jinkan. So, either they have an additional supply (and then previous episode was pointless), or writers completely dropped the ball and forgot what they wrote in previous episode. Edited November 5, 2014 by Artesia

[starchild215]

What does it mean that I was cheering for Katrina to die so that the plot line could go forward? The character is weak and the actress playing her is the worst actress of the cast.

 

I agree "Angel" did the whole demon baby thing much, much better.

 

I don't mind Hawley. He'd make a solid addition to the core cast of Ichabod, Abbie, Frank and his family, and the MOTW. John Cho has a show right now so I understand his character not being there.

 

I kept wishing that they hadn't given the show a 22 episode deal. 13 episodes makes the writers have to focus on the plot and not useless characters like Katrina. I agree that someone on the writing staff or one of the producers has a thing for Ms Winter. They have to be swinging back to the Ichabod/Abbie dynamic that drove the show last year. I hope they will anyway.

[Enero]

On the other side we have Katrina spying on her former betrothed and son for her husband with the sometimes use of magic. I don't have a problem with the character it's just that she's gone from exposition witch damsel in distress in purgatory to confined double agent absent magical strength.

She's not even or wasn't even a double agent. When she was in Headless' house did she ever provide any useful Intel to the Witnesses? The only thing I can recall is her using her magic to send Ichabod a love letter, which was an utter waste of time. Also, is she out of Headless' house for good? Or now that she's freed from the demon spawn she's going to return to his home and continue her useless spying?

[wayne67]

When she was in Headless' house did she ever provide any useful Intel to the Witnesses

 

Well to be fair this episode she did give them important information in order to stop Moloch from rising from her. Of course it seems that Moloch is now growing in a jar like a demonic version of a petri dish experiment so that might end up being a wash . Also she's managed to get the two Horsemen to bicker between each other and Henry to aggravate Death. I'm hoping that Death will come for payback in the night and slap Henry around like the annoying whiny brat he is. Sowing discontent on both sides of the fence (hence double agent comment as her true loyalty is still confusing).

 

Sadly we'll probably not see Headless being a BAMF since he has become a wimp once he got a fake head. Henry has swallowed the show. If only his part was reduced a little so he could seem scary again. If you shine too much light on the darkness it fades... Big bads should lurk way off in the background not chew scenery and whine about parental neglect from 2 centuries ago. I think it isn't so much Katrina that is dragging this show down (though her lack of progress towards integration with Team witness essentially leaves her out in the cold in a seperate story line) it's the endless focus on Henry. Henry's machinations, Henry's whining, Henry's need to be redeemed. YAWN

 

I can understand Ichabod's sense of devotion for Katrina even though at times she's an anchor tying him to a life he no longer leads in a time long gone because despite their boringness now they did have a bond at one point. Henry on the other hand didn't become a reality until the end of season 1 and has been actively trying to hurt, rape or murder his parents since then. Please let him die or Abbie, Jenny, Hawley or Irving to smack some sense into Ichabod already. It's getting ridiculous and tedious. Yes you want to save your son but 1 you don't have to mention it every episode and 2 I think you're fresh out of luck since Henry joined Moloch willingly and is now the Horseman of War AND DOESN'T WANT TO BE SAVED!!!

Edited November 5, 2014 by wayne67

[Haleth]

I so agree with everyone about the mistake the writers have made in focusing on Crane Family Drama rather than the dynamics of much more interesting characters. Besides the diversity, the characters of Irving and Jenny are just so much more compelling than wishy washy Katrina. If the writers don't readjust the direction of the show during the winter break I probably won't be back.

And why the hell would the writers make the Headless Horseman a lovesick wimp? Bringing John Noble in as the main villain was another huge mistake.

Loved the election scene but for me the best scene was when Abby was snooping around the lab. The cliche would have been for her to get caught and need rescuing, but our Abby is smart and resourceful and able to extract herself from a hairy situation after finding the evidence she needed. We need our strong female lead, not a damsel.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Haleth

[kimberella]

I selfishly want John Cho's show to tank and him to come back and be the Undead Andy Brooks who shows up every couple of episodes.  I miss Undead Andy.

I also miss Andy, but I want John Cho's show to be renewed, because, in spite of the title, it's actually pretty good and he deserves so much better than this show.

 

I'm mostly a lurker and I've read many of your posts and thought that you were overreacting but I have to say this post is spot on. This season definitely feels like Twisted 1B and Abbie was basically only there to assist the Cranes. The show has gotten whiter and dumber. And if this is really network interference, it doesn't make sense since Sleepy Hollow was pretty much the only bright spot for Fox last year.

No network interference this time. This is Goffman's baby.

 

Like another poster said - I read your earlier posts and thought - okay HOPED - that this show would prove me wrong - but I am now firmly in the same camp as you.

I wanted to be wrong too, but I'm old enough and jaded enough to detect the warning signs quite early and they inevitably lead to this.

[phoenics]

Well to be fair this episode she did give them important information in order to stop Moloch from rising from her.

What? No she didn't. The only thing she did was run when Abraham helped her. Abbie and Ichabod figured everything else out. She hasn't done a damn thing as a spy except be even more useless.

Of course it seems that Moloch is now growing in a jar like a demonic version of a petri dish experiment so that might end up being a wash . Also she's managed to get the two Horsemen to bicker between each other and Henry to aggravate Death. I'm hoping that Death will come for payback in the night and slap Henry around like the annoying whiny brat he is. Sowing discontent on both sides of the fence (hence double agent comment as her true loyalty is still confusing).

She could sit there on her corseted bum and do that - that's because Abraham wants her. She literally has done NOTHING her whole time there except spit two lines of dialogue and we're supposed to take that as her sowing discontent between them? Nope. What sowed that discontent was Henry acting out against her - prompting Abraham to ride to the rescue. Katrina didn't do anything to cause that except EXIST - which is all she's done on this show to date.

EXIST. BLOCK. BE A Damsel in distress.

 

I think it isn't so much Katrina that is dragging this show down

No, it's Katrina - half the story lines you cite as bad are being done mostly to give her a story. So NO, it's her.

I can understand Ichabod's sense of devotion for Katrina even though at times she's an anchor tying him to a life he no longer leads in a time long gone because despite their boringness now they did have a bond at one point. Henry on the other hand didn't become a reality until the end of season 1 and has been actively trying to hurt, rape or murder his parents since then. Please let him die or Abbie, Jenny, Hawley or Irving to smack some sense into Ichabod already. It's getting ridiculous and tedious. Yes you want to save your son but 1 you don't have to mention it every episode and 2 I think you're fresh out of luck since Henry joined Moloch willingly and is now the Horseman of War AND DOESN'T WANT TO BE SAVED!!!

Now this I can agree with.

[Timetoread]

I am in deep thought about this show.   It started out as one of the most inventive, fun shows in a long time.  I loved the chemistry between Ichabod and Abbie and I liked the idea of the two witnesses leaning on each other on the suicide march they are fated to walk.  I can see how the diversity of the casting was accidental and it didn't even occur to me that this cast was so diverse until more than half way into the season.   Race was irrelevant in terms of the lives and interactions of the characters.  Ichabod was a white man.  Abbie was a black, female cop (cool, yes, but not so anomalous that it MEANT anything in the larger scope). Jenny was her sister, so therefore black.  John Cho is just a wonderful addition to any show and was simply a casting "score".  Irving could have been anything but Orlando was an appropriate enough.  So yeah, a lot of non whites by sheer coincidence but it didn't mean anything - not socially, politically, or romantically.  But then it seems that someone did the math and it made them uncomfortable.  Now they are fixing something that wasn't broken to begin with.

 

As for Katrina.  We all agree that she is an albatross.  But I feel like she is spoiled food that simply has to work through the show's system.  I think when they originally cast her there was a feeling that she and Ichabod could bring a romantic/sexual element to the show.  I think on paper it looked good.  But chemistry being what it is, Abbie and Ich became cannon before Katrina had uttered a single line.  By the time she was introduced she felt, and continues to feel, like an interloper.  But writers often fall in love with their own ideas and I think that a decision-maker feels strongly about making the "Katrina" element work.  It just isn't though. He's going to have watch those numbers tank and the good reviews dry up before he finally gets it and lets Katrina go. 

 

That said, what is doing more damage than Katrina and Ich is that all the bad guys are being woobified by their connection to Katrina.  While I normally love for characters, particularly bad guys, to be complex, I feel that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse should be pretty one dimensional.  No agenda other than Armageddon, no wishy washy feelings toward mother and lost love, and no room for redemption.  Henry should be simply explained away as born soulless and evil, which is why the witches killed him to begin with.  Katrina was just the vessel through which evil passed - perhaps as a result of her sin of messing with life and death with Ichabod.  I don't want the family conflict and it is not necessary or even good for this mythology.  And Headless being Abraham is the wrong choice, not unless they give him a better backstory as an evil man who would naturally make a deal with the devil.

 

At this stage I am in it solely for Nicole.  I want this show to be her big break because I want to see much more of her.  But the show no longer interests me at all.

[starchild215]

I think it's too soon to write the show off. If the powers that be don't see that there is absolutely no chemistry between Katrina and Ichabod then we can write the story off. Their romantic scenes come across as awkward to me.

 

The point about evil having already come into the world through Katrina is an interesting one. We still don't know why the coven killed Henry and that could prove interesting. They've already established Katrina as a liar and a killer (in today's world she would've been convicted of manslaughter for Mary's death not murder), and the person she lied to the most was her supposed love Ichabod. It's obvious that the great love between Ichabod and Katrina was mostly Ichabod towards Katrina. And let's not forget Katrina practically left Abraham at the altar for Ichabod.

 

That Katrina was lying to Ichabod in that bedroom scene - she may have already been pregnant and keeping it from him - was also interesting. A lot of what happens on this show is visual. There were some significant looks exchanged between Ichabod and Abbie at telling times. We know that he's not sure if he can totally trust his "beloved" and in the end he was anxious to reaffirm his connection to Abbie. 

 

They're throwing a lot of possibilities out there. I don't know if they'll be able to pull the ideas together and get back to last season's exellence.

[phoenics]

I am in deep thought about this show.   It started out as one of the most inventive, fun shows in a long time.  I loved the chemistry between Ichabod and Abbie and I liked the idea of the two witnesses leaning on each other on the suicide march they are fated to walk.  I can see how the diversity of the casting was accidental and it didn't even occur to me that this cast was so diverse until more than half way into the season.   Race was irrelevant in terms of the lives and interactions of the characters.  Ichabod was a white man.  Abbie was a black, female cop (cool, yes, but not so anomalous that it MEANT anything in the larger scope). Jenny was her sister, so therefore black.  John Cho is just a wonderful addition to any show and was simply a casting "score".  Irving could have been anything but Orlando was an appropriate enough.  So yeah, a lot of non whites by sheer coincidence but it didn't mean anything - not socially, politically, or romantically.  But then it seems that someone did the math and it made them uncomfortable.  Now they are fixing something that wasn't broken to begin with.

 

As for Katrina.  We all agree that she is an albatross.  But I feel like she is spoiled food that simply has to work through the show's system.  I think when they originally cast her there was a feeling that she and Ichabod could bring a romantic/sexual element to the show.  I think on paper it looked good.  But chemistry being what it is, Abbie and Ich became cannon before Katrina had uttered a single line.  By the time she was introduced she felt, and continues to feel, like an interloper.  But writers often fall in love with their own ideas and I think that a decision-maker feels strongly about making the "Katrina" element work.  It just isn't though. He's going to have watch those numbers tank and the good reviews dry up before he finally gets it and lets Katrina go. 

 

That said, what is doing more damage than Katrina and Ich is that all the bad guys are being woobified by their connection to Katrina.  While I normally love for characters, particularly bad guys, to be complex, I feel that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse should be pretty one dimensional.  No agenda other than Armageddon, no wishy washy feelings toward mother and lost love, and no room for redemption.  Henry should be simply explained away as born soulless and evil, which is why the witches killed him to begin with.  Katrina was just the vessel through which evil passed - perhaps as a result of her sin of messing with life and death with Ichabod.  I don't want the family conflict and it is not necessary or even good for this mythology.  And Headless being Abraham is the wrong choice, not unless they give him a better backstory as an evil man who would naturally make a deal with the devil.

 

At this stage I am in it solely for Nicole.  I want this show to be her big break because I want to see much more of her.  But the show no longer interests me at all.

I loved your post and agreed with nearly everything except your comment about Katrina - the part where you say the writers thought she/Ichabod could bring the romantic element to the show. Well - except for the fact that Katia was cast before anyone else and never chem-tested with anyone else... AND the fact that the writers originally planned to kill her off... in the PILOT.

I think your comment that "someone looked at the math and became uncomfortable" is the real reason Katrina's stay (and others) were extended on the show.

[Neurochick]

But then it seems that someone did the math and it made them uncomfortable.  Now they are fixing something that wasn't broken to begin with.

 

 

 

 

And that's how the show has become fucked up.  I think I'm done.  I'd rather watch "Homeland" or "The Affair" on Monday night than this shit.  I'll catch it on the web, or not.

[cynic]

I loved your post and agreed with nearly everything except your comment about Katrina - the part where you say the writers thought she/Ichabod could bring the romantic element to the show. Well - except for the fact that Katia was cast before anyone else and never chem-tested with anyone else... AND the fact that the writers originally planned to kill her off... in the PILOT.

I think your comment that "someone looked at the math and became uncomfortable" is the real reason Katrina's stay (and others) were extended on the show.

She was supposed to die in the pilot? Was that information from an interview or something? If you have any links or other info, could you post it in the Katrina thread please? That's really interesting. I'm sad that it didn't work out that way.

[apgold]

 

I think it's too soon to write the show off. If the powers that be don't see that there is absolutely no chemistry between Katrina and Ichabod then we can write the story off. Their romantic scenes come across as awkward to me.

 

ITA.  

 

Katrina does bring down the show, but I still see her as plot device, not a primary character.  I think what they are trying to do is show that Crane is torn between his trust and partnership with Abbie and his love for his wife.  I saw it in the scene in the church when they talked about redeeming Henry.  Abbie clearly doesn’t see any redemption in him and thinks the Cranes are crazy but she puts that aside out of her loyalty to Crane.  I do want to see them have an out and out passionate fight about it eventually, b/c I think it would be a great scene and sexy, too, LOL.

I do wish we had more of Irving and Jenny, and less of Henry’s proverbial mustache twirling but I’m willing to ride out the rest of the season to see where this goes.

[marceline]

 

Agreed with most of your post but actually I don't think Kurtzman and Orci are the problem seeing as they haven't written any episode this season and from interviews and appearances I am guessing they are no longer hands on with the project.

If this is true then we're probably screwed. You can like them or hate them but K&O created a complex show with very specific sensibilities. You can't just hand that kind of thing off to somebody else without an impact on quality certainly not in the second season. If it's true that we've lost the original showrunners then my hope for the show turning around is gone.

[HalcyonDays]

She was supposed to die in the pilot? Was that information from an interview or something? If you have any links or other info, could you post it in the Katrina thread please? That's really interesting. I'm sad that it didn't work out that way.

 

It's from the original TV Pilot script written by Kurtzman, Orci and Phil Iscove. Katrina is mentioned/referred to as being a ghost and was killed by being burned at the stake. They obviously changed their mind and originally were going to kill her off first in the pilot, then in the season 1 finale. Really wish they stuck with that - it would have worked really well actually in the season 1 finale.

 

Katrina does bring down the show, but I still see her as plot device, not a primary character.  I think what they are trying to do is show that Crane is torn between his trust and partnership with Abbie and his love for his wife.  I saw it in the scene in the church when they talked about redeeming Henry.  Abbie clearly doesn’t see any redemption in him and thinks the Cranes are crazy but she puts that aside out of her loyalty to Crane.  I do want to see them have an out and out passionate fight about it eventually, b/c I think it would be a great scene and sexy, too, LOL.

 

I so want to see this happen. So much. I am tired of Abbie not calling out Crane and company on their idiocy. She needs to call him out on that, big time.

 

So hubby watches SH with me, but was travelling this week. He likes the show, but is not anywhere near a crazy fan or ships anything. His off-handed comments for various episodes have been gold though and telling of what I think many fans see within this show, or have a similar opinion regarding the show:

 

Season 2, Episode 1 - opening scene - Crane and Abbie with cupcake. "So when are those two going to have sex?"

Season 2, Episode 6 - Katrina makes an appearance - "So are they going to kill her off soon?"

Season 2, Episode 7 - on seeing a brief clip of the show on the airplane - "I saw Crane giving her mouth to mouth and then she woke up and I was so disappointed. I thought they finally killed her off."

 

Show, if this is what he sees as a regular viewer, can you imagine what the rest of us, who LOVE the show see?