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Tara Ariano

S10.E04: Paper Moon

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I like that they followed up on "Bitten," but I lost consciousness halfway through thanks to all the anvils.

The Paul Bunyan line made me laugh so loudly, I embarrassed myself.

Edited by JennB
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Um.  Sam and Dean actually had conversations.  They talked about stuff.  They listened to each other.  They didn't keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves.  I didn't think the writers were capable of this.  

 

Weird!  But very satisfying.  Loved every minute of them together.  I miss how fun Demon!Dean was, but I'll take regular Dean any day. 

 

I wish I cared at all about Kate though.  Would have made this episode more enjoyable.

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I liked Kate's character well enough in "Bitten" but I thought she was fairly wooden in this episode.  She didn't sell remorse, guilt, conflict, or really much of any emotion.  I enjoyed the joke that Sam, with his broken shoulder, ends up stabbing both the male werewolves.  I was wondering about Dean's strength though.  I thought the MOC gave him a boost even without the First Blade.  I would have thought he would have been a fair match with a werewolf.  Overall, rather a blah episode.

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I was wondering about Dean's strength though.  I thought the MOC gave him a boost even without the First Blade.  I would have thought he would have been a fair match with a werewolf.

I didn't think strength was the problem. I thought he choked when it was time to kill a monster, because now he knows what it's like to be one.

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I had zero expectation for this, especially considering the last Adam Glass werewolf episode, which was more of an insomnia cure than Samelia, but it was OK. Not great, but OK, sometimes good. The material felt lifeless at times, but that's not a big surprise, especially with Glass. The surprise were the moments when it didn't. I appreciated those.

 

The parallels were so overbearing, but at least they go for both brothers (Tasha was saved from death, then became evil and had to die).

 

I like Kate. She's not played by the best actress, but she's good in the moments that count. I nearly applauded at her last scene. No werewolf "family," no happy endings, yet not complete misery. She's going to be on her own, she'll do the best she can, and the rest she's not going to bother pretending. I hope this will be her permanent exit - it was a great way to go. The shot of her walking on the highway gave me a few slight chills - it wasn't as well-shot as the show's first few seasons, but it was still very evocative of that gritty type of imagery which they rarely let us see now. I flashed back to the first Meg and I smiled. 

 

Sam and Dean actually tried to talk, and the writing was relatively balanced in giving them both POVs and not trying to blame either of them. 

 

I liked that Dean was rusty as hell and clearly unsure of what he was supposed to be doing. I liked that this didn't make him a "bi***" or a "princess" or less of a man, as it would have if someone like Bobby was around. I like that they are dealing with him still not knowing who or what he is. I thought Jensen played this uneasiness very believably. 

 

I know some fans will think the show is saying Sam is strong and Dean is weak. I don't feel like that was the idea, but I do wonder where this is going. I'm guessing that Sam will be the one Dean has to kill, instead of vice/versa, but who knows. 

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I have never hated so called "parallels" with such a heated passion the way I do for this show. I would like to give it the benefit of the doubt and not assume it was a direct parallel of Dean = Kate, Sam = Kate's sister (did she have a name?), but I am so SO incredibly jaded by this point. So... apparently Dean turned Sam into a monster? Even as actual original flavour human Sam he has no agency and no responsibility for his choices? And Sam is going to turn into even more of a monster at a later date, probably also taking on the MoC, and this episode is foreshadowing Dean's eventual choice of whether to kill him? To teach Dean some sort of lesson about finally letting go? I sincerely hope this is not where the story is going, ONCE AGAIN.

 

I'd LIKE to believe that it is not a direct parallel, and that part of Kate's situation is also meant to reflect Sam, but the comparisons to Dean are so much more apparent and I have no faith at ALL in these writers. Argh. 

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I have never hated so called "parallels" with such a heated passion the way I do for this show. I would like to give it the benefit of the doubt and not assume it was a direct parallel of Dean = Kate, Sam = Kate's sister (did she have a name?), but I am so SO incredibly jaded by this point. So... apparently Dean turned Sam into a monster? Even as actual original flavour human Sam he has no agency and no responsibility for his choices? 

 

Tasha.

 

I don't think they're saying Dean turned Sam into a monster. I don't even think they were saying Kate turned her sister into a monster. I think they were saying a questionable choice was made but ultimately the person who was subjected to that choice has the final say. Kate was made into a werewolf and she has done her best to live right. Tasha did not. In a sense, Tasha killed herself.

 

I think the parallels are so vague and meaningless it's difficult to know what to read, but I didn't think they were doing bad Dean or bad Sam or good Dean or good Sam.

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I like that they followed up on "Bitten," but I lost consciousness halfway through thanks to all the anvils.

The Paul Bunyan line made me laugh so loudly, I embarrassed myself.

 

The anvils did make it hard to pay attention and I guess I missed the Paul Bunyan line....

 

Um.  Sam and Dean actually had conversations.  They talked about stuff.  They listened to each other.  They didn't keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves.  I didn't think the writers were capable of this.  

 

Weird!  But very satisfying.  Loved every minute of them together.  I miss how fun Demon!Dean was, but I'll take regular Dean any day. 

 

I wish I cared at all about Kate though.  Would have made this episode more enjoyable.

I don't even remember Bitten...or Kate...But Dean's we kill monster's line, really so that is what you want Sam to do?

 

I also wished it was more clear that Dean was either not up to his standard in fighting or he choked...I couldn't tell and that bugs me.

 

I did like the brother's talking and both saying not trying to start something but a real let down after waiting all summer for a really badass story.   I really should stop getting my hopes up...I tried but once again I failed.  I hate when I'm proved wrong.

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I must say that I was confused and bemused by Dean and Sam talking about Dean's time as a demon and Sam's torturing and killing while Kate was sitting in the car with them. I guess they either forgot she was there or they knew she didn't give a shit anyway. 

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I think the parallels are so vague and meaningless it's difficult to know what to read, but I didn't think they were doing bad Dean or bad Sam or good Dean or good Sam.

 

I'd much rather believe you are right, and I am this cynical because of Thinman, which just, I felt personally offended by the anvils/false parallels lol, and this episode was almost as heavy handed with the paralleling dialogue. Sasha was dying, Kate "didn't have a handbook", she saves Sasha so at least "we had each other, that felt like enough - or so we thought". Let me just... bang my head against a wall for that bit of brilliant, subtle dialogue. "Son of a bitch" - Dean's catchphrase - "I trusted you", invokes Dean's experience with Gadreel. Sasha *embracing* the idea of being together while Kate starts having doubts - JUST as Sam is also having that role reversal dialogue where he is now advocating for family, and Dean is questioning whether it was right to save each other. I feel like there's even more, but without rewatching I can't remember the exact dialogue.

 

And Sam not feeling guilt for Lester and the other people who sold their souls during Sam's hunt for Dean - that is clearly a red flag and leading somewhere. Not that I think it's THAT heinous of a crime, but come on, it's not only Dean who feels guilty for everything. So all this is leading me to think, after we get three measly episodes of demon Dean, is Sam going dark side ONCE AGAIN? As a Dean fan, this is the absolute worst case scenario for how the season could go, and I REALLY hope it's just me being pessimistic and that I'm completely wrong. 

 

ETA: Sorry, you said TASHA. Oops, read that wrong. 

Edited by Mcolleague
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Here's a parallel Sam should have mentioned: He watched Dean die, then carried his body home and put him in his bed. Dean did the same with Sam back in season 2. Does Dean consider what Sam did to Lester a worse decision than Dean selling his soul to bring Sam back?

I must say that I was confused and bemused by Dean and Sam talking about Dean's time as a demon and Sam's torturing and killing while Kate was sitting in the car with them. I guess they either forgot she was there or they knew she didn't give a shit anyway.

She was asleep.

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I could've sat here watching Sam and Dean drink beers, while sitting on lawn chairs, in front of a beautiful lake, wearing douche-y sunglasses for the entire hour.

Damn, those boys are pretty.

I do like that they talked pretty much the whole time.

Next weeks preview looked super, super lame.

Edited by Ferniesfreckles
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I have never hated so called "parallels" with such a heated passion the way I do for this show. I would like to give it the benefit of the doubt and not assume it was a direct parallel of Dean = Kate, Sam = Kate's sister (did she have a name?), but I am so SO incredibly jaded by this point. So... apparently Dean turned Sam into a monster?

 

Okay, I must either be really dense or the anvils messed my head up, because if I thought there were parallels they were trying to make, I thought that Kate was Sam and Dean was Tasha. Sam didn't get rid of Dean's body and was ready to do what he had to do to save Dean, so Dean turned into a demon and then went off the reservation as a demon. And Sam wouldn't kill him, but insisted on saving him like Kate insisted on trying to save Tasha... except that Tasha wasn't saveable. That's why I thought that Sam sympathized with Kate's position and wanted to give Tasha a chance.

 

I guess I'll have to watch the episode again, because now I'm confused... which huh, didn't think that would happen with this episode.

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I'd much rather believe you are right, and I am this cynical because of Thinman, which just, I felt personally offended by the anvils/false parallels lol, and this episode was almost as heavy handed with the paralleling dialogue. Sasha was dying, Kate "didn't have a handbook", she saves Sasha so at least "we had each other, that felt like enough - or so we thought". Let me just... bang my head against a wall for that bit of brilliant, subtle dialogue. "Son of a bitch" - Dean's catchphrase - "I trusted you", invokes Dean's experience with Gadreel. Sasha *embracing* the idea of being together while Kate starts having doubts - JUST as Sam is also having that role reversal dialogue where he is now advocating for family, and Dean is questioning whether it was right to save each other. I feel like there's even more, but without rewatching I can't remember the exact dialogue.

Okay, I must either be really dense or the anvils messed my head up, because if I thought there were parallels they were trying to make, I thought that Kate was Sam and Dean was Tasha. Sam didn't get rid of Dean's body and was ready to do what he had to do to save Dean, so Dean turned into a demon and then went off the reservation as a demon. And Sam wouldn't kill him, but insisted on saving him like Kate insisted on trying to save Tasha... except that Tasha wasn't saveable. That's why I thought that Sam sympathized with Kate's position and wanted to give Tasha a chance.

 

I guess I'll have to watch the episode again, because now I'm confused... which huh, didn't think that would happen with this episode.

This is why I'm not sure where the parallels were supposed to be going. I've seen people say Dean will go dark and Sam will kill him, and vice/versa. I tend to think Sam is more likely to go dark, but I don't know.

 

I think there's a way to make Sam go dark while still giving Dean strong material (but I never really wanted Dean to go too dark...or Sam for that matter, as I don't think the show would know how to pull it off), but right now everything seems so vague, I can't guess which way it will go.

She was asleep.

 

Thanks. That makes more sense, although it still threw me.

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Well I like it!  Just having a SPN ep that actually featured Sam and Dean with no boring angel politics makes it a winner for me.

 

I still don't give a crap about Lester - Sam didn't force him to do anything. 

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No, you guys are right and I do think both brothers can be reflected in both sisters, if it's purely based on my own (author is dead) interpretation of the episode on it's own, in isolation from everything else. My comments are based more on my fears in terms of authorial intent, since that probably reflects how the rest of the season would go. I think the parallel with Kate is more obvious for Dean, it seems quite specifically to be deconstructing what Dean did in Season 9 - which I'm also fine with, but my issue is that Sam has been guilty of many of the same things, and I would disagree if the narrative blamed ONLY Dean. I wish I could know ahead of time that I'm totally wrong, so I can actually enjoy this episode, since there WERE scenes I liked. The brothers were awkward and passive aggressive, but entertainingly so, which is quite a refreshing change these days.   

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Um.  Sam and Dean actually had conversations.  They talked about stuff.  They listened to each other.  They didn't keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves.  I didn't think the writers were capable of this.

 

I agree. My favorites are always the MotW episodes, and I also love when they use this oldie-but-goodie formula of having a MotW A-story and a Brothers'-Relationship B-story, right down to the tag at the end of the guys having a quiet heart-to-heart. That's the show I fell in love with, so I'm always happy when it goes back to that.

 

The B-story was very well done, imo. I felt like the conversations between the brothers, and the dialogue generally, was really strong. There were also a lot of smaller details throughout that I appreciated and made it all feel a lot grittier than usual somehow (in a good way -- I hope they keep that up). Like how Sam felt really uncomfortable having this big dramatic conversation in the middle of a running trail, or that fantastic phone conversation and long shot of Kate walking down the road at the end.

 

The A-story...meh. There were zero plot twists, which I always think is boring. The closest thing to a plot twist, the "trick" of curing Tasha, was so lazy that nobody was apparently surprised when the truth was revealed, not even Kate particularly. There was zero interesting or fun lore or any sense of place/history, which is definitely just an extra but something that I personally enjoy. I thought the idea of wrestling with the dilemma of "what's the difference between someone who's a monster and someone who's not?" was a good one, but with no real plot to hang that on, it just sort of drifted around as this vague metaphor. They could have had least had a fight scene that was as difficult physically as that dilemma is theoretically.

 

As to the theme specifically:  Tasha didn't have any particular motivation for being super committed to killing and Kate didn't have any particular motivation for being super committed to not killing, yet they each were apparently 100% sure of their positions and unwilling to tolerate the other -- having it be so cut and dried imo undermined the "who is a monster, really?" theme to the point that I couldn't even follow what the episode was trying to say w/r/t that theme by the end of the episode.

 

Altogether, I thought the episode was surprisingly good. Oddly, the stuff I liked about it is the stuff that I usually think SPN isn't particularly good at (realistic yet interesting dialogue, quiet moments, creating an eerie atmosphere), while the stuff that I thought was missing or weak (like a fun MotW, fun fight scenes, linking the A/B stories together elegantly) is usually the stuff that SPN excels at. What's up with that?

 

I think the parallels are so vague and meaningless it's difficult to know what to read, but I didn't think they were doing bad Dean or bad Sam or good Dean or good Sam.

 

I agree. I think they needed a stronger and more complex MotW plot to carry/act as a metaphor for such a complex theme (especially because the theme is interesting! I wish I actually understood what they were even trying to say, about how to decide whether someone is a monster or not).

 

I think they were saying a questionable choice was made but ultimately the person who was subjected to that choice has the final say. Kate was made into a werewolf and she has done her best to live right. Tasha did not. In a sense, Tasha killed herself.

 

I agree that the choice is ultimately subjective, but I don't think that the person who had the final say in any of these cases was the person whose life was actually on the line. Kate made the choice *for* Tasha whether Tasha was going to live or die:  Tasha wanted to live as a werewolf, but Kate didn't think she should, so Kate murdered her. Imo, that's very similar to the choice that Sam had to make for Demon!Dean:  Dean (ostensibly) wanted to live as a demon, but Sam didn't think he should, so he decided to either cure him or kill him trying. That's also similar to the choice that Dean had to make for Sam:  Sam wanted to die, Dean didn't think he should, so he decided to let Gadreel possess him.*

 

I don't think that this episode was assigning a value judgment to any of those decisions, I think the point was that they were difficult decisions and painful either way. Also, I think the issue of responsibility/authority came up, where on the one hand, none of them arguably had the authority to make a decision like that for their sibling, but on the other hand, somebody had to take responsibility for looking out for the greater good** just on a practical level, so they didn't really have much of a choice but to step up to the plate.

 

*Though I think this might be most analogous to when Tasha was in the hospital initially and going to die, and Kate decided to bite her to save her. That's basically splitting hairs, though.

 

**Imo, it's arguable that Dean allowing Gadreel to possess Sam was for the greater good, but I do think that he kept Sam alive out of a sense of duty to his family that trumped even his sense of loyalty/duty/love for his brother as an individual, similarly to how Kate killed her sister out of a sense of duty to the greater good that trumped even her sense of loyalty/duty/love for her sister as an individual.

 

I also wished it was more clear that Dean was either not up to his standard in fighting or he choked...I couldn't tell and that bugs me.

 

Honestly, it didn't even occur to me that anything was weird about Sam stabbing the two werewolves, except that I was kind of shocked that he just coolly stabbed them both in the heart from like five inches away (nerves of steel, I guess), and how quick/quiet/bloodless that whole scene was. The brothers were so calm and had so little trouble protecting themselves that I didn't think that they were having any kind of issue with their fighting at all. If anything, what I thought was most jarring was that after Sam stabbed them to death, one of the brothers (Dean?) quipped, "Welcome to the majors." SO TASTELESS. Come on, these people just died, have some respect. Things like that turn me off so much, although maybe I'm oversensitive.

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Good gods. That was really bad.  I am so godsdamn tired of this parallel to ALL the monsters, demons, blah blah blah with Sam and Dean.  WE GET IT SHOW. 

 

Why didn't they just take Kate to join Garth's family???

 

Remember when the show told at the right time and showed at the right time? 

 

Why was Dean just laying there not fighting back? WTF was that about? Was the Mark killing him again? And yup, just like I figured....back to What Sam Did".

 

I miss demon!Dean :(. 

 

ETA: I want an episode with the boys on the beach doing nothing but sitting there in their Ray Bans and drinking bear.  Jensen just wears those shades like none other. Whew...... Also thank you for a short jacket on Dean. I hate to see him go but I love to watch him leave....

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I have never hated so called "parallels" with such a heated passion the way I do for this show. I would like to give it the benefit of the doubt and not assume it was a direct parallel of Dean = Kate, Sam = Kate's sister (did she have a name?), but I am so SO incredibly jaded by this point.

 

 

You're not jaded, you're just a realist. At this point I think the writers are incapable of subtlety - the older sister was Dean and the younger sister was Sam.  It's the same bs partyline they've been trying to shill for what feels like eons; Sam's totally innocent of everything! It's not the choices he(they) make, but the choices forced upon him(them) by circumstances!

 

"Circumstances" needs a good kick in the balls - let me get my stepladder.

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he brothers were so calm and had so little trouble protecting themselves that I didn't think that they were having any kind of issue with their fighting at all

 

Dean was knocked down and stayed down. He didn't fight back at all.

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Good gods. That was really bad.  I am so godsdamn tired of this parallel to ALL the monsters, demons, blah blah blah with Sam and Dean.  WE GET IT SHOW. 

 

Why didn't they just take Kate to join Garth's family???

 

Remember when the show told at the right time and showed at the right time? 

 

To be honest - not really. 

 

I don't think Kate wanted to be with anyone. She wanted to be with her sister, obviously, but otherwise I think she would have bristled at any type of werewolf "family" or werewolf commune. I think she'd rather be alone. It's too bad they didn't have her and Dean talk about this, as it was one of the bigger similarities between them. 

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Oh I disagree that the show never knew when to show and tell. It's been so much worse under Carver.  The over exposition combined with the anvils in Thinman and now in this episode are just too much.  

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I'm not sure how I feel about this episode yet. I need to rewatch; I always need to rewatch.

 

First impression, though:

 

Liked: All the conversations between Dean and Sam. They aren't comfortable with each other, and it really shows, but at the same time, neither of them are trying to piss each other off and they are actually talking more openly than they have for a long time. I think there's a smidgeon of appreciation for each other that's been missing for a while.

 

Disliked: The heavy-handed attempt at similarities. See, the thing is, we care about Sam and Dean and we know everything that's happened to them, everything they've been through, so we allow gray areas with them, just like others do, because they are *different*. We don't know or care about Kate and Tasha, so it's pretty black and white and IMHO, Kate should have been put down, too. Sure, she still hasn't killed anyone, but she did turn someone. Who's to say she won't again, for what looks like a possibly good reason? I don't agree with the similarities, regardless of which sister was supposed to be Dean and which Sam, so that whole thing didn't work. Sam and Dean are *different* so there can't be any parallels or similarities that will truly serve to illuminate the brother's relationship/situation at the time. I think that story structure has long since outlived its usefulness, period.

 

Next week: I'm going to reserve judgement for now.

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I think they knew up to season 2 - ever since the whole "Sam is going to be evil because he killed Jake and Dean's closeup of concern tells us so" at the end of season 2, I think they've never known how to properly tell and show. For me, "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" in season 4 is, along with "Thinman," the nadir of awful, heavy-handed, embarrassing parallel material on this show. I'll never get that scene out of my head where Barry Bostwick moans and groans about killing his brother.

 

Tonight was clumsy too, but I thought they balanced it out relatively properly by having Sam and Dean attempt to talk to each other, not just in tear-stained end-of-episode moments, but from start to finish.

Edited by Pete Martell
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The heavy-handed attempt at similarities. See, the thing is, we care about Sam and Dean and we know everything that's happened to them, everything they've been through, so we allow gray areas with them, just like others do, because they are *different*. We don't know or care about Kate and Tasha, so it's pretty black and white and IMHO, Kate should have been put down, too.

 

So much this. I would have rather watched Sam and Dean drive around or sit there by the water and get to the same conversation about Dean hunting or what Sam did.  It's just annoying and I'm sorry but if this is going to be the last season, I need helluva a lot more than this shit.

 

What I need to know is why is Dean not ready to hunt? What exactly happened to him between his conversation with Cas to this hunt? What makes him know he's not ready to hunt or shouldn't be hunting? What did Sam mean by "If things go off the rails" What was he worried about happening?

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rue721 said: "If anything, what I thought was most jarring was that after Sam stabbed them to death, one of the brothers (Dean?) quipped, "Welcome to the majors." SO TASTELESS. Come on, these people just died, have some respect. Things like that turn me off so much, although maybe I'm oversensitive."

 

You are, of course, entitled to feel how you feel, but as for me, I have zero sympathy for two werewolves who were about to try to kill Sam and Dean and eat their hearts. They just didn't know who they were dealing with. Reminded me a little of when Crowley killed a demon and said, "You're good, but I'm Crowley." I think if someone had just underestimated me and tried to kill me and got served, I'd have to hold back on pissing on their corpse. But that's me.

 

Maybe you're a little oversensitive, or maybe I'm a little callous, but off the top of my head, I can't remember a kill by the boys that I felt badly about, except maybe Cindy McKellen or whatever her name was, the formerly possessed nurse Sam shoved in a car trunk to later drink her blood.

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A bit too talkie for my taste, but overall, an okay episode.

I'm rather glad for a return, however brief it may be, to a monster-of-the-week type story.  Also a nice vacation from the angel saga.

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catrox14 said: "It's just annoying and I'm sorry but if this is going to be the last season, I need helluva a lot more than this shit."

 

Where did you hear that this is the last season? The last I heard was that as far as the head of the network was concerned, the show could keep going as long as they wanted it to. I know that Jared and Jensen are up for contract renewals after this season, but I haven't heard anything more about that. Is there something I've missed?? Yikes, if so!

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No. I'm saying IF it's the last season since there has been no official announcements as to a season 11. So that's just me saying if this is it. 

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Dean was knocked down and stayed down. He didn't fight back at all.

 

Who was there to fight? What fight was there even? I mean, Sam stabbed those two werewolf lackeys to death like he was making a sandwich. They were setting up jokes when the werewolves were bearing their teeth, and saying punchlines over the corpses afterward. No sense of tension whatsoever. It's not like there was a big action scene and they avoided killing throughout it -- I think that would have been much better. God forbid, they could even have made an action sequence like that funny.

 

I guess I also assume that anyone would try to avoid killing people if possible. Were we supposed to be rooting for them to slaughter people and to find it weird that they would hesitate at all to do that? Was it supposed to be a strange thing that after they'd strung up Kate in that abandoned building, and she was hanging there helplessly like a cow on a meathook, they didn't murder her with zero hesitation (though they did only barely hesitate anyway, and the hesitation they did have wasn't because they were feeling squeamish about killing her, so I actually didn't think that being too *hesitant* to murder was the issue there in any case)?

 

I guess that the security guard watching Dean beat that man to death in the convenience store back in the premiere did say that they weren't sure if he was a hero or a psychopath, and then Dean did keep hinting really heavily throughout this episode that he was feeling bloodlust and straight up *wanted* to kill, so I should dial my interpretations of their actions to "really dark," but WOW I thought it was bad enough that they were so quick to kill when they felt they had to/should, I didn't think that they were so far gone that killing was actually the spice of life for them. Blech.

 

IMHO, Kate should have been put down, too. Sure, she still hasn't killed anyone, but she did turn someone. Who's to say she won't again, for what looks like a possibly good reason?

 

I strongly disagree. You can't just murder people on the off-chance that, despite all the safety measures they've put in place and their past history and current beliefs, they *might* someday turn or kill someone. Also, she bit her sister because otherwise her sister would have died, I see zero malicious intent there. Even if there had been some secret malicious intent, though, who are they to even judge? They've done so much worse, if their standards are so high that Kate deserves to be killed because she could maybe one day be a threat to someone, then they should kill themselves right now, because they've proven themselves to be much more dangerous than Kate already.

 

I think if someone had just underestimated me and tried to kill me and got served, I'd have to hold back on pissing on their corpse.

 

If it had been an actual fight, I can see how your blood could get up and the victory would be sweet, but in this case their "enemy" was just two random goons who they were literally laughing at *as* the goons threatened them. The poor schmucks, they had zero chance and both brothers knew it. I get why they killed them, it was basically self-defense and I'm not all up in arms about that, but imo it seems indecent to be all celebratory over winning such a mismatched contest, like the SPN equivalent of doing a fistpump after successfully knocking down a toddler to steal her lollipop.

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No. I'm saying IF it's the last season since there has been no official announcements as to a season 11. So that's just me saying if this is it. 

 

Ah! Okay, phew! (wipes forehead). I'm not 100 percent sure, but I think they make announcements about renewals early next year.

 

To the actual topic, the final season of a show is definitely not a guarantee of quality and focus. I mean, look at True Blood. IMHO, the last season was the worst season and very disappointing to this fan. Same with Dexter, the last season and particularly the last episode, blew chunks.

 

But I do not even want to think about SPN ending, so I won't ;)

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Who was there to fight? What fight was there even? I mean, Sam stabbed those two werewolf lackeys to death like he was making a sandwich. They were setting up jokes when the werewolves were bearing their teeth, and saying punchlines over the corpses afterward. No sense of tension whatsoever. It's not like there was a big action scene and they avoided killing throughout it -- I think that would have been much better. God forbid, they could even have made an action sequence like that funny.

 

 

If Dean was choking because whatever reasons then I needed to understand that more. There was no implication or indication that Dean was worried he was going to kill again, unless I missed something important. And I was waiting for it. I was expected to here something pretty clear about it.

 

u can't just murder people on the off-chance that, despite all the safety measures they've put in place and their past history and current beliefs, they *might* someday turn or kill someone. A

 

 

But Kate isn't a person. She's a monster. Her sister killed because Kate turned her into a monster.

Edited by catrox14

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rue721, I think where you and I are having our disconnect is that these *aren't* people, these are monsters.

 

This is a show about two brothers killing monsters, not because they have to, but because it is their job. They hunt them down and they kill them. That's the show.

 

These weren't two random goons they put down, these were *werewolves* who fully intended to kill actual non-monster people and eat their hearts, aka, "the bad guys."

 

Kate is *also* a monster. She should have been put down just as Dean put Amy down. She should have been shot with the silver bullet as she hung there, yes, because *she is a monster* and Sam and Dean kill monsters.

 

As far as the MoC, it can be satisfied with monsters and demons, the things that Dean is "allowed" to kill by the show and the fans, and we know this because of the demons like the one in the convenience store that Crowley threw at Dean to kill and Dean killed.

 

Sam and Dean *kill monsters* they don't kill people worthy of respecting as people, as humans, which is why all the angsting over Lester. Lester was an actual human being, not a monster, so the hand that both Sam and Dean had in his fate is an issue. Those two werewolves (not people) are not an issue.

 

Can you think of a time when Sam or Dean killed a person, just a plain old human being? Like I said above, all I can think of off the top of my head is Cindy McKellen...?

Edited by Rammfan
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If Dean was choking because whatever reasons then I needed to understand that more. There was no implication or indication that Dean was worried he was going to kill again, unless I missed something important. And I was waiting for it. I was expected to here something pretty clear about it.

 

I have a feeling we'll be hearing more about it as the season progresses. It wasn't just him struggling to kill the douchebag wolves - he was very short with Kate, he was awkward with the law enforcement guy. He wasn't especially comfortable with any aspect of what he was doing. Some of it may have been rustiness, but I also think it's that he's changed so much even before the mark, and hunting was a crutch which no longer works the way it once did for him.

Edited by Pete Martell

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and hunting was a crutch which no longer works the way it once did for him.

 

Hunting has been Dean's entire life.  He's been a hero because he was a hunter.  I'm not understanding how it was a crutch for him.

 

Can you think of a time when Sam or Dean killed a person, just a plain old human being? Like I said above, all I can think of off the top of my head is Cindy McKellen...?

 

Dean killed the guy that was posing as the THINMAN.. Dean killed a human who was a murderer. 

Edited by catrox14

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If it had been an actual fight, I can see how your blood could get up and the victory would be sweet, but in this case their "enemy" was just two random goons who they were literally laughing at *as* the goons threatened them. The poor schmucks, they had zero chance and both brothers knew it. I get why they killed them, it was basically self-defense and I'm not all up in arms about that, but imo it seems indecent to be all celebratory over winning such a mismatched contest, like the SPN equivalent of doing a fistpump after successfully knocking down a toddler to steal her lollipop.

 

I can see your point (though I actually meant to quote rather than like, since I actually disagree - I'm more tired than I thought), but I also wasn't bothered by whomever said "welcome to the majors."

 

I disagree that it was like knocking down a toddler - unless that toddler is a typical Supernatural one who's a ghost and wants to scalp you. These werewolves knew what they were and either had or had no qualms in the future about going to kill innocent victims. Tasha thought nothing about quipping to the guy who thought he was going to get lucky's face before she brutally killed him instead. Talk about taunting and cruel. I'm sure those werewolves wouldn't have thought anything of the people they would've killed - including Sam and Dean who I'm sure they were intending on taunting too. So nope you get down with your quips Dean. I remember when he used to enjoy his job, and it would be good if he could put Demon Dean's defeatist attitude of "monsters are the natural order of things, so why do we bother" behind him, and if he wants to quip and get in touch with his inner Buffy as part of doing that, so be it.

 

Pete Martell - I have a feeling we'll be hearing more about it as the season progresses. It wasn't just him struggling to kill the douchebag wolves - he was very short with Kate, he was awkward with the law enforcement guy. He wasn't especially comfortable with any aspect of what he was doing. Some of it may have been rustiness, but I also think it's that he's changed so much even before the mark, and hunting was a crutch which no longer works the way it once did for him.

 

This may also be true and his quip was an awkward and/or over-enthusiastic attempt to get into the game.

 

Rammfan - Can you think of a time when Sam or Dean killed a person, just a plain old human being? Like I said above, all I can think of off the top of my head is Cindy McKellen...?

 

There have been a few others, but they generally deserved it. Off the top of my head: Dean killed the serial-killer guy in "Repo Man" (in addition to the multiple women he murdered, there was that poor, trusting dog he gutted for that spell) and Sam killed the psychic guy who was using the ghost woman to kill the "fake" but harmless psychics and that innocent, amusing spoon bender in "The Mentalists." Sam was rather quick with that one, but he was on a major time crunch and there were lives on the line.

 

Edited to add: Oh and I forgot - Dean also killed one of the serial killers in "#Thinman" too.

Edited by AwesomO4000

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I have a feeling we'll be hearing more about it as the season progresses. It wasn't just him struggling to kill the douchebag wolves - he was very short with Kate, he was awkward with the law enforcement guy. He wasn't especially comfortable with any aspect of what he was doing. Some of it may have been rustiness, but I also think it's that he's changed so much even before the mark, and hunting was a crutch which no longer works the way it once did for him.

 

I agree. Dean was so anxious to get back into the game, yet during the job, he was so very "off". I think you are very right that Dean realized that the hunting "crutch" (nice way to put it, very spot on) was not working anymore.

 

I think we will see more of that and eventually we'll find out why, which I am looking forward to. That right there is a Dean arc and I'm happy about that.

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I think I should have been more specific. I was thinking about basically innocent people, like Cindy, whose only "crime" was being possessed by a demon. Thanks for reminding me of those other humans, the ones who did deserve to be killed but were still, technically, people.

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I would have found it very jarring if Dean was suddenly back to his old self. He's recovering from major trauma and it's rightfully showing and being shown. And he's possibly regretting no longer being that carefree. Dean needs a fat cushion of a cat who will curl up in his lap and purr.

The "all these things happen to you and yet you sprain your shoulder?" interaction was adorable.

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Here's what I don 't understand. 

 

Now I'm not sayingthat he should be back to normal Dean but it wasn't like Dean was possessed and had his body used and abused and thrown out windows by something else.  He was in charge of his body as a demon. He might not have hunted but he's hunted his entire life and he didn't forget how to hunt. So if the timeframe between being turned into a demon and now is less than say...3 months...why would he be rusty? Why would he choke and not fight back?  Sure he's been through a trauma but I think being in Hell as a human being for 40 years and being tortured and torturing others seems a lot worse than 3 months as a demon in good health doing what he wants. 

 

Dean was still saving people and hunting things even with the MoC before he was turned into a demon. Something is missing in the narrative to explain what the fuck is up with Dean beyond "recover" . IMOThat's either godawful story telling or there is something we don't yet know.

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Well for one I think Dean is still trying to process everything and that includes how he acted as DemonDean. How good it felt to kill. And he has to wonder: if I kill again will that thrill come back? What will the MoC do? Will he turn around and promptly shank Sam?

I do wonder if he's concerned at all that Crowley will pop up and try something.

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Here's what I don 't understand. 

 

Now I'm not sayingthat he should be back to normal Dean but it wasn't like Dean was possessed and had his body used and abused and thrown out windows by something else.  He was in charge of his body as a demon. He might not have hunted but he's hunted his entire life and he didn't forget how to hunt. So if the timeframe between being turned into a demon and now is less than say...3 months...why would he be rusty? Why would he choke and not fight back?  Sure he's been through a trauma but I think being in Hell as a human being for 40 years and being tortured and torturing others seems a lot worse than 3 months as a demon in good health doing what he wants. 

 

Dean was still saving people and hunting things even with the MoC before he was turned into a demon. Something is missing in the narrative to explain what the fuck is up with Dean beyond "recover" . IMOThat's either godawful story telling or there is something we don't yet know.

 

Dean's behavior in some of the first episodes after he had the mark weren't too different from this. The one where he and Sam went to work at a health clinic - he was woozy, he couldn't really deal with people (that awkward "this is how we do" interview), he wanted to kill first and ask questions later (the woman who was running the fat-sucking with her brother and boyfriend). 

 

I think it's like that again, because the mark keeps him off-balance, only now it's worse because he spent months as a demon, he has to readjust to being human, yet he's not completely human. When you add in that he was already having a breakdown before he ever took the mark, I think he's just coming apart and has no idea how to deal with any of this.

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Well, I didn't care about Kate and her werewolf on the run story two years ago and I still don't care about Kate and her sister the werewolf now. Perhaps it would have been different if the actress who played Kate didn't sound like she was bored beyond belief every time she was talking. She seemed to care even less about this episode then I did. And the sister brought about as much depth and menace to her "I love being a werewolf" speech as a toddler pointing a finger gun and going "bang bang".

However, I could easily have watched the boys hanging out by that incredibly picturesque lake and jokingly giving each other shit in those douchy sunglasses for an hour. They were sure bringing the pretty in that opening scene.

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Not subtle show. NOT SUBTLE!

 

Oh, and BTW show, I never wondered what happened to Kate nor did I care. I thought the point of an episode like Bitten (which I did enjoy for what it was) was that I would never see her again, let alone see her murderous little sister. Too bad the show forgot that every generation of werewolves are supposed to be more feral. Kate should have been the only werewolf that could control her changing. Whatever, it's not like I actually expect it anymore, just nice when they do remember things.

 

Alright, I could have lived without all the sister-talk, but the brother-talk was necessary. For the first few minutes it felt like old-school Supernatural and I liked that feeling, but it didn't take long for them to squash that feeling. Oh well, at least they're getting back on track. I kinda enjoyed the boys' awkwardness with each other, and I quite enjoyed Dean saying he was embarrassed about Crowley. Could care less about Lester and Sam's regrets over that, but what would Supernatural be without all the symmetry?

 

I do wish they'd addressed the MoC and made some of the points about it a bit more clear, but I'm guessing that's all sure to come--probably shouldn't get too impatient for a boring exposition dump anyway.

 

Not their best, but certainly not their worst.

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I agree. My favorites are always the MotW episodes, and I also love when they use this oldie-but-goodie formula of having a MotW A-story and a Brothers'-Relationship B-story, right down to the tag at the end of the guys having a quiet heart-to-heart. That's the show I fell in love with, so I'm always happy when it goes back to that.

Plus, no angels! Yay! 

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I was saying in another thread that they had it wrong...that Def Leppard song  is called "Paper Sun" not "Paper Moon." How long has it been since they used classic rock song names as episode titles? I can't recall the last one right now.

 

Anyway, I think it maybe referring to the movie, but it's been so long since I've seen the movie, so I could be off-base here. As I recall, the movie was about an orphaned little girl who befriends a grifter and con man and he kinda ushers her into a new life.

 

It could also just be that a paper moon would be false and not necessarily what it appears to be. I don't know for sure.

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