S05.E03: Four Walls And A Roof

[nachomama]

I'm getting more and more offended on Sonequa Martin-Green's behalf that she's still not in the opening credits, while Chad L. Coleman and Michael Cudlitz are. I know nothing about how those decisions are made in "the biz," but I can't shake the fear that this means Sasha's not long for this world. And this would make me very sad, since I currently find Sasha twice as interesting as Tyreese and Abraham combined. 

I don't know if this is relevent, but Michael Rooker explained he was hired, in the beginning, as a "local hire" (he's from Alabama) even though he actually lives in L.A. or elsewhere and that part of his contract were certain things like, they didn't put him in a hotel or find lodging for him, no per diem and something in the credits. He also was not initially supposed to come back later so for when Merle returned he got a better deal. I don't know if Sonequa has a deal along those lines or not, could be Michael Cudlitz and Chad Coleman have much better agents and credits were part of the deal to begin with. 

[Iguessnot]

Near the end of Talking Dead, they ran a commercial for that sweepstakes where you enter the two words shown during The Walking Dead commercial breaks. First, they show Michonne in the woods at the end of episode three—with her weapon drawn. Then

Carol standing behind Daryl in the woods—with their weapons drawn. Why would they point their weapons at Michonne?

 

I think the promo monkeys used an unrelated shot.

That's what I'm saying. In Strangers we see the same shot of Daryl with his bow up and Carolwith the gun. We don't know they are aiming at Michonne, since the sequence has been cut. Additionally that whole promo was pulling up clips randomly.

[kikismom]

I thought that was the part when he's looking at her, and she says she doesn't want to talk about it, and then they hear a noise, and Daryl comes back finding nothing and tells Rick there were no tracks...but he still had a strong feeling there was someone watching them.

I don't think it's a scene from the next episode.

[Sofie Fatale]

Belated congratulations!

Thank you kikismom!

[kikismom]

I don't know if this is relevent, but Michael Rooker explained he was hired, in the beginning, as a "local hire" (he's from Alabama) even though he actually lives in L.A. or elsewhere and that part of his contract were certain things like, they didn't put him in a hotel or find lodging for him, no per diem and something in the credits. He also was not initially supposed to come back later so for when Merle returned he got a better deal. I don't know if Sonequa has a deal along those lines or not, could be Michael Cudlitz and Chad Coleman have much better agents and credits were part of the deal to begin with. 

Agreed; I wouldn't get too offended about SMG---Melissa McBride was in almost every episode for years while being listed as "guest star" or "also starring". Even huge movie stars have their billing worked out and argued over...it represents clout.

[GreyBunny]

I could be wrong but it was my understanding that not being in the opening credits gives the actor more freedom with their time.  Someone who has primary billing is required to available for filming for all episodes even ones they're not going to be in.  If you're second tier you're free to go off and do other things while you're not filming.

 

Sonequa Martin-Green might have wanted to remain out of the opening credits so she can go do other things during episodes she's not in.

[nachomama]

It could also be a very good sign, if she was only supposed to be in 1 or 2 episodes and walker bait. They liked her and kept her around. The others, whether long term or short, had a story arc planned from the beginning. So she's defying the odds and staying alive.

[Mu Shu]

I haven't seen Rosita so much as hold hands with Abraham so I will give them credit for not pushing that relationship in our face like Maggie/Glen, Bob/Sasha. All of season 4 Sasha didn't seem to want to get too close to Bob and at that time his crush was cute. As soon as they kissed in season 5, I thought "YIKES - Bye Bob"

The sound is really muddy sometimes.   When Sergeant Moobs talked about extracting Eugene's ass, I swear he said "I need to Exlax his ass", and I thought, oh, it's like that.   Even though Rosita probably has to scavenge for Levitra, she's not partaking in that action, good for her.    It's only on re watch that I got the line correct. 

 

The Bob crush was cute.   I dug him from jump, because he was just an average guy with a monkey on his back, not some superman killing machine.    It was a pretty understated role, but Lawrence Gilliard did a fine job with it.  Never mind that he has the most beautiful smile.    What was in the box, and why was Bob the sole survivor of two different groups?    There was mystery there, but as per usual, it never gets explained.   

[shang yiet]

How did Bob keep his neck/shoulder wound hidden anyway last episode? His shirt would have been torn and bloody. Those few cans of tinned food weren't worth a life. 

 

I was shipping Father Gabriel with Michonne for a moment. It seemed like he knew she of all people would understand and not judge. And it's annoying Maggie still has not mentioned Beth. 

 

Why when Abraham was suddenly in such a rush to go to DC, didn't Rick just let him go? They're practically strangers anyway. Also, it's strange Eugene all of a sudden was reluctant to leave. I wonder if the twist is it's actually Abraham who believes in the cure theory and it's Eugene stringing Abraham along because he knows Abraham needs the hope.

[Pete Martell]

 

Why when Abraham was suddenly in such a rush to go to DC, didn't Rick just let him go? They're practically strangers anyway.

 

I think it was the bus. Rick wanted to keep the bus. 

 

For a moment I envisioned Rick driving the bus, chasing Abraham around, Rick laughing maniacally all the way.

I'm getting more and more offended on Sonequa Martin-Green's behalf that she's still not in the opening credits, while Chad L. Coleman and Michael Cudlitz are. I know nothing about how those decisions are made in "the biz," but I can't shake the fear that this means Sasha's not long for this world. And this would make me very sad, since I currently find Sasha twice as interesting as Tyreese and Abraham combined. 

 

Beyond the reasons already given, I think part of it is due to character background. Tyreese and Abraham were big characters in the comic. There was a certain expectation from some parts of fandom about when they would arrive. I think the show may have seen it as some type of must for them to have starring credits. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

I hate to give the writers any credit, even of a back-handed kind, but it's got to be tough to write for so many women who are all pretty much of the same age: Maggie, Sasha, Rosita, Tara, to a lesser extent due to age of character - Beth.  I mean they have effectively carved out (get it?) Michonne's character.  And then there's Carol and the writers went way afield with that characterization.  So, is the characterization - Maggie = Glenn, Sascha = Bob (and to a degree, Tyrese) and Rosita = Abraham?  What of Tara?  And right now, that's why I like Tara because she's not tied to anyone.  (Same with Beth in some regards, but it remains to be seen about Daryl.) 

(I hope this doesn't sound sexist because that's not my intent!)

 

When the show started, there were only two women who were supposed to be important - Lori (who was rigidly defined by men), and Andrea (who was supposed to stand on her own). Time has changed and I think the show has done a much better job of representing women, but you do have a point. I think part of it is that romance is such an obvious trope. I think you can write female characters without focusing as much on their love lives, and I wish the show did this more often, but sometimes I can see the story reasons. For instance, I think Sasha/Bob was a way to show more sides to Sasha's character, while still keeping her true to the character we knew. If anything I think gender roles were somewhat flipped in the relationship - in the Star Trek or Bonanza eras, they used to do the flip - the story would have been closed-off Sash (or Steve or whatever) being taught to love again by Bobbie, who then gets a disease, and has a long, beautiful goodbye with the man she loves before his brother has to kill her to spare him the pain. The last time I saw something close to this version was on Survivors, where

Ruth's boyfriend Paul goes out on a mission for vital medicine for the baby of one of the other characters, partially to show Ruth what a hero he is. He gets the plague, and has to be isolated in the barn. Ruth then kills him and disappears. When they find her, she's near-catatonic in the woods, and she tells them she nearly committed suicide, but couldn't go through with it. I have a feeling that was too stark even for this show.

 

Others, like Maggie, do tend to suffer somewhat from "___'s girlfriend/wife" writing.

 

Shipping tends to blow this up further - like all the fan frenzy over Beth/Daryl/Carol.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Pete Martell

[leisawoo]

Pete Martell, love your posts. Please come to the SOA forum if you haven't already :)

[Pete Martell]

Thanks. I know they go on and on. I don't watch SOA but if I ever get the chance to start it I'll definitely come to the forum to check it out.

[mandolin]

Ugh, SoA. I'll be glad when that mess is over!

And yes, please to Rick driving the bus and chasing Abraham.

[Irishmaple]

It's no secret that I'm convinced Eugene is full of crap, and if he has the cure under that mullet I will apologize to a fictional character like I have never apologized before.  It's Abraham I find fascinating.  He's invested in this.  He believes in Eugene to the point that he puts his life on the line to get that man to Washington DC and is willing to put the lives of others on that line too.  Abraham needs a mission and Eugene is it.  I can't wait to see what lies ahead for him.  He'll feel justified if Eugene is telling the truth and if Eugene is lying, I think he'll be devastated.

 

Rosita interests me because, while she seems to like Eugene, I don't get the feeling she's as convinced as Abraham.  I think she's there to catch him when he falls.  I haven't read the graphic novels but I don't find the characters cartoony or anything.  I'm interested to see where their storyline goes.  

[klarsonovsky]

Random replies now that I've finally finished reading:

 

She does look young but I KNOW that she's 29 and well, her acting does not override that knowledge. It's like, yeah, her acting is at a teenage drama club actor skill level but not a GOOD one.

I happen to spend a lot of time around teenaged girls, and the thing is, they DO often seem to be playing bad drama club versions of themselves, in real life. Go spend an hour at your closest mall, you'll see what I mean. We are so used to the hyper-articulate, preternaturally self-possessed teens on tv we maybe forget that. My 2 teen daughters happen to be in the hyper-articulate self-possessed category (they didn't get it from me), but many of their peers have a palpable aura of self-consciousness that I think EK captures just perfectly.

 

when Beth's life is in danger, she reaches not for the deadly weapon at her side (IV pole) but for the half-inch pliable plastic tube.  Why cave in a bad guy's head when you can tickle them with a tiny piece of plastic instead?

To be fair, I didn't get the impression that was meant to be a weapon. It seems pretty reasonable that if you anticipate fighting (or running) for your life, you might not want to be attached to a pole. Plus every tv or movie character who has ever woken up alone in a hospital (including Rick) has invariably ripped out their IV first thing. Having unfortunately undergone several surgeries recently, the most unrealistic thing to me is just the ease with which they pull off that damned tape.

 

We only see a little of Maggie (or any of the characters), so I don't think her saying, "I missed you," or, "I thought about you," would be a lie. I think she does miss her.

 

I'm finally willing to give Maggie a break.  They all fled the prison for their lives, and Beth was the only one we saw express hope that others could be alive. Maggie following Glenn made more sense because she knew/believed he was on the bus, and which direction it was heading. Glenn searching for Maggie took the same route. Searching for anyone else though would have been just wandering aimlessly and hoping for the best.

it's got to be tough to write for so many women who are all pretty much of the same age: Maggie, Sasha, Rosita, Tara, to a lesser extent due to age of character - Beth.

 

 

This is actually one of the reasons I really like the addition of Tara. Through the Glenn/Maggie marriage storyline we've kind of forgotten that they are actually supposed to be much younger than the other adults (say early 20s compared to the early-to-mid 30s age I'd assume for Sasha, Michonne, Rosita, and  Bob... possibly Eugene and Abraham) Hanging out with Tara lets G & M show a bit of that younger adult side we haven't seen since the farm.

[kikismom]

Here is an interesting piece by a Yale law professor and professor of war ethics---with his theory on why killing the Termites brutally, instead of just shooting them, may have been the smart thing to do.

 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-10-29/the-churchhill-effect-on-the-walking-dead

[CloverTracey]

Hah! First post. I've been cyber-stalking you guys for a few episodes, wanna join the party. Look forward to trading cutting edge (get it?) comments next Sunday! :)

Thanks for welcome notes, nacho,Kiki et al. Look forward to "a place at the table".....bob b q anyone???

Edited October 30, 2014 by CloverTracey

[AngelaHunter]

Here is an interesting piece by a Yale law professor and professor of war ethics

 

I've already said I thought what Rick did was sensible and economical, and, IMO,  a bullet in the head would be too merciful for Gareth, but this part:

 

Rick, in other words, could believe quite rationally that a quick bullet through the head would be insufficient for Gareth, not because Gareth “deserves” a harder death, but because an easier death might inadequately deter future cannibals or others who might, in some other fashion, break the human bond completely.

 

I don't understand, since I don't know who would be "deterred". There was no one around who witnessed the deaths or who could be warned by them unless the bodies are left tied to trees in a place where people might pass and with a sign saying "These were cannibals and this is what will happen to YOU if you decide to chow down on people."

 

Very different story with the Germans, since in that case a whole population would know about the "no chance" executions and they would have a severe psychological effect. If no one knew about them they could hardly serve as a warning.

 

Am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time!

[klarsonovsky]

Regarding Abraham et al.--

 

If Abraham came up to me in a bar and said, "Hey, my buddy Eugene has the cure for Ebola, AIDS, cancer and the common cold, but it'll only work if you drop everything and help me get him to Washington," well, yes, obviously I would excuse myself to use the ladies' room and quietly slip out the back.

 

But what other viable option do these people have? Why NOT gamble on a cockamamie scheme if it has even the slightest possibility of being true?  

 

The church will not be any safer long-term than the farm, or the funeral home... one guy huddling inside quiet as a mouse might have been ok, but there's no way this crew, with all the coming and going and shooting and baby crying, are not going to attract a hoard any minute.

 

They know their corner of Georgia offers no safe haven. Why not try somewhere else? Maybe Eugene is actually right-- maybe there's a secure installation that will take them in, filled with scientists who know how to use Eugene's information. Obviously viewers know that won't happen, but from the characters' perspective it's surely worth a shot.

 

Even if they don't have faith in the Mission, who knows? they could come across a Woodbury or Terminus-type sanctuary that isn't run by psychos. They could find, say, a nice brick school house surrounded by a fenced-in play area. (Gareth might have been off on his dietary decisions, but he certainly had a better instinct for safe-ish shelter-finding that Rick does. Schools tend to be the 1st thing closed in an epidemic, so any school that wasn't used as an emergency shelter or medical center should be a lot easier to clear than the prison was.) 

 

And I won't go into my issues with the epidemiology of the zombie virus (I know it's just a tv show, and I'm sure there's a thread somewhere where I can wonk out on that score), but it's certainly possible that other parts of the country might have areas where the initial death count was low enough that quick-witted leaders were able to install protocols and contain it before it was too late. Sure, most of them may have been ultimately over-run in the past two years, but it's certainly possible, I'd say probable, that some of those places still exist. 

 

The only good reason NOT to follow Eugene is if they believe it's some kind of nefarious trap. But after watching them detour to help Glenn find Maggie, and then detour again to help them get to Terminus, and then say "fuck it we're going without you"-- well, that's like the worst entrapment strategy ever.

 

Point being-- Georgia is dead to you, guys. Hit the road.

[GreyBunny]

I've already said I thought what Rick did was sensible and economical, and, IMO,  a bullet in the head would be too merciful for Gareth, but this part:

 

I don't understand, since I don't know who would be "deterred". There was no one around who witnessed the deaths or who could be warned by them unless the bodies are left tied to trees in a place where people might pass and with a sign saying "These were cannibals and this is what will happen to YOU if you decide to chow down on people."

 

Very different story with the Germans, since in that case a whole population would know about the "no chance" executions and they would have a severe psychological effect. If no one knew about them they could hardly serve as a warning.

 

Am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time!

 

Everyone else in Rick and Abraham's groups as well as Father Pee-Pants.  They're generally getting along now and have formed bonds, but Rick also thought Shane was his loyal best friend and look how he turned out.  It sets a clear boundary and may help to discourage anyone else in the group(s) to start thinking about killing and eating innocent people with impunity. 

[kikismom]

 

Am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time!

I think the professor wrote this as an argument in response to all the people who are saying ooh but it was so mean and they are no better than the Termites and it didn't have to be that way.

 

He argues that if there was a large-scale crisis where there is no court, no police, no prisons, you would need to remember that you are in the same situation as guards and prisoners with a no-parole lifer or death sentence con amongst you, or a school shooter perhaps that wants to go out by "suicide by cop". A "dead man walking" knows his actions from that point on have no consequence for him, for you maybe, but for him even disemboweling you with a sharpened spoon handle is a freebie--he can't be punished if he expects death anyway...therefore his attitude, his willingness to commit sick acts becomes more dangerous.

 

 The remaining members of society that want safety would be better off starting a reputation of "we won't bother you unless you attack us first; and if you do you won't get a quick kill. You'll wish for a bullet in the head when you find out what we will do to you."

 

They might not fear quick death, but they might fear humiliation and slow torment more.

[Irishmaple]

I'm not convinced the Churchill argument applies to the cannibals in this instance.  Everyone in the church not from Terminus already knew that organized cannibalism is A Bad Thing and were unlikely to take it up under any circumstances.  Father Gabriel can't even kill the undead.  Now that the group has split, how would Rick even know what anyone else was doing?  There's no means of communication. I can't imagine anything acting as a mass deterrent in The Walking Dead world because there is no word-of-mouth around those parts.  Who would you tell?  Who would they tell?  Word will not spread that cannibalism gets you a messy death. 

[kikismom]

I'm not convinced the Churchill argument applies to the cannibals in this instance.  Everyone in the church not from Terminus already knew that organized cannibalism is A Bad Thing and were unlikely to take it up under any circumstances.  Father Gabriel can't even kill the undead.  Now that the group has split, how would Rick even know what anyone else was doing?  There's no means of communication. I can't imagine anything acting as a mass deterrent in The Walking Dead world because there is no word-of-mouth around those parts.  Who would you tell?  Who would they tell?  Word will not spread that cannibalism gets you a messy death. 

I think he means as a think-ahead strategy...once a ZA or something happened you won't even get a weather report; but if society saw something developing (or devolving), it would be important for people who've lead innocent lives to understand that bad guys won't think the way you do.

 

Bad guys don't respect the moral purity of people who "won't lower ourselves to their level".

 

Quite the contrary; everyone will think you are a mook and not be scared of you at all. Now think of a whole country with 90% percent of the few human survivors wringing their hands saying well, we execute them if we have to but let's be nice and clean about it.

 

The other 10% --the scumbags--could take control in a week because they don't have any boundaries.

 

This is a theoretical argument against the people who say you could keep order and defend you and yours with out being brutal.

 

When our guys were in Somalia, the rebels would use children for human shields. Because they knew Americans wouldn't shoot kids. But the rebels would use kids as bullet sponges without blinking an eye. You can't stay alive around people like that ---without being as scary or scarier---and we only got our prisoner back when Warren Christopher sent an emissary to tell them we had a ship off the coast that was about to kill every man, woman, child, dog, donkey, or cockroach, kill every living thing and turn the place into a sheet of molten glass.

 

It would be a nice world if you didn't have to be that way...but Dale Horvath wouldn't have ever led an escape/overthrow of the Termites.

 

This is policy in prep...once the ZA or whatever is on, you'd better hope a lot of people have their minds ready to do what you gotta do.

Edited October 30, 2014 by kikismom

[Boofish]

Someone asked a few pages back how Gareth knew about Carol. Remember she captured Martin and Tyrese (bless his heart) left him alive.

Also if Eugene is lying (and the probability and consensus is DUH) he is #2 behind Rick in my "I respect his gangster" list. I mean it's bloody brilliant! ! This guy has gotten food, shelter and protection and has had to do nothing to earn it but come up with a lie. Sergeant Apricot said they had a group before they ran into Glen. That group probably protected him if Abraham was their leader. I don't think he cares about them finding out about the lie, I think he wanted to stay because he felt safe with Rick and his group. Once again he had food, shelter and protection without so much as having to carry a pencil.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Boofish

[peach]

But what other viable option do these people have? Why NOT gamble on a cockamamie scheme if it has even the slightest possibility of being true?  

 

I think it was as reasonable as anything else for them to agree to go on this "mission" to DC, and Rick even agreed to it, but NOT UNTIL they found out what happened to Daryl and Carol.  He knew Daryl would never just leave without a reason, and they needed to give them a chance to come back.  One, out of loyalty, and two, because maybe they had discovered some threat to all of them they need to know about.  Or as actually happened, they had a chance to find Beth. 

Maggie and Glenn decided they had to keep some rash promise to Abraham and leave less than 24 hours after Daryl was gone.

[henripootel]

It sets a clear boundary and may help to discourage anyone else in the group(s) to start thinking about killing and eating innocent people with impunity.

Spurious assumption - there's no evidence that the only thing preventing the rest of the group from eating human flesh is the promise of reprisal, so super-duper reprisal doesn't matter.  This is the other flaw (beside's kiki's above, that there're no Termites left to convey the message) in the guy's argument - there doesn't really seem to be a lot of cannibalism around that needs deterring.  Hell, I assumed that the Termites started their eatin' spree with the thugs who raped them, just to one-up them on sheer brutality.  This would suggest that even the Rapers thought cannibalism was way out of line.  

 

I think the only argument to be made for 'purpose' in giving Gareth a brutal death (besides sheer bloody-mindedness) is a kind of rough solidarity.  You come at ours with violence, we kill you back.  You come at us with horror and we visit horror on you that would make Genghis Khan say 'Uh, Rick, I think you need to dial it back a bit'.  

 

Worth noting that it was, for all its brutality, a measured response - they could have tortured these folks for hours or raped them to death, or just hung them up like zombie piñatas and let nature take its course.  I'da been sorely tempted by the last but it woulda sent the wrong message to the rest of the group, and probably resulted in its disintegration.  We're not monsters, but all should rest assured that fucking with us leads to ugly death with the surety of the hand of god.  Good for morale, that, and glad to know that you guys got my back in the most absolute terms possible.

 

I was a bit underwhelmed by that article, truth be told.  And not only because the guy thought Rick killed Gareth with Michonne's sword.  He might have gotten more out of it if he'd paid more attention.  I honestly thought Rick might wuss out and let them go, right up to when Rick stepped a bit into the shot of Gareth on his knees, enough to show ... the red handle of a machete.  Mrs. Pootel and I missed most of Rick's 'Besides, I already made you a promise' on first viewing because I said aloud 'Oh Jesus ...' and sat up in bed.  Whatever you might think of the violence in that scene, it was a fucking masterful bit of directing.  After so many deaths on this show, I thought I'd lost my capacity to be truly shocked.  I stand corrected.

Edited October 30, 2014 by henripootel

[lawless]

I think it was the bus. Rick wanted to keep the bus.

I think it was that too, and I think he wanted superior numbers, because the Termites were damn scary and had outwitted them in several ways before Carol came along and saved the day.  Abraham appears to be strong, gutsy and aggressive, so in Rick's place, I would definitely have preferred that he stick around to help.  Also, in case things went bad, I think Rick very much wanted to have the ability to escape in the bus as a last resort with Carl, Judith and whoever else was alive.  He'd prefer to fight it out with the Termites and wait for Daryl and Carol to return, but he had two kids to think about and probably knew he needed a plan B.  If Abraham left with the bus . . . bad times. 

 

I have to agree that killing the Termites brutally in the Church was not really effective as a deterrent.  Cannibalism as they practiced it especially was so aberrant and repulsive it is a little hard to even believe.  The only witnesses to Rick et al.'s machete execution who didn't participate were the rest of the group, who also happened to be the more gentle, decent group members in the first place, and thus the least likely to ever resort to cannibalism.  I think it was frankly a lot more about revenge and a release of their terror and rage.  And perhaps that was necessary for those characters to reduce the trauma their experiences with the Termites caused, who am I to say?  I would imagine you'd have some pretty raging PTSD after the experience at the trough and in the meat locker or whatever that was.  The Termites certainly deserved what they got, and then some.  They were mass murderers of the innocent who committed obscene acts of depravity by butchering and eating their victims, including far more helpless women and children, and in fact gloried in it.  So, fuck them.  However, I do think that you have to watch how much you allow yourself to indulge your baser instincts so you don't lose inhibitions that are necessary to be a just, decent, civilized human.  But I think just this once was fine.  (Rick's neck biting doesn't count, because he had no other options to save his kid -- that was different than choosing to hack the Termites to death rather than use a bullet -- Rick wanted to hack them to death, I don't buy that he had to do it that way, and it was a riskier way to kill them because there's a chance one of them could have gotten the upper hand in the struggle and hurt one of the group.  But as I said, I don't blame them and maybe they needed it to go down that way to cope with the victimization and trauma they'd experienced.

Edited October 30, 2014 by lawless

[CletusMusashi]

Here is an interesting piece by a Yale law professor and professor of war ethics---with his theory on why killing the Termites brutally, instead of just shooting them, may have been the smart thing to do.

 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-10-29/the-churchhill-effect-on-the-walking-dead

The problem with that guy's argument is that it's based on using the Termites as an example.

To which I again ask: for who?

Seems like a bit of extra risk to go through just to make sure... who..? to make sure Father Gabriel doesn't try to eat you?

Couldn't you just kick his ass if he tries?

There is no one outside our group to witness the execution and take the news to the other potential bad guys.

The next bad guys they meet are going to do whatever they are going to do, regardless of whether the protagonists had gunned the Termites down like walkers, took them prisoner and then beat them to death, or tied them up, had a tea party with them, and then made them run home in their underwear.

Street cred just isn't worth that much when the streets are empty.

 

ETA: Sorry for repeating so much of what others already said. But I got excited about a big law professor article about TWD, and then after I read it I immediately hit the "quote" button and started rambling.

 

My only real issue with Rick's choice is still that he allowed the enemy too many variables. 

Example: When Martin was refusing to kneel, Rick should have killed him right there. One more bullet, to make sure he doesn't pull out another gun and kill somebody? Just get the job get done already. Life or death combat is not the time to be a cheapskate.

Edited October 30, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Also if Eugene is lying (and the probability and consensus is DUH) he is #2 behind Rick in my "I respect his gangster" list. I mean it's bloddy brilliant! ! This guy has gotten food, shelter and protection and has had to do nothing to earn it but come up with a lie. Sergeant Apricot said they had a group before they ran into Glen. That group probably protected him if Abraham was their leader. I don't think he cares about them finding out about the lie, I think he wanted to stay because he felt safe with Rick and his group. Once again he had food, shelter and protection without so much as having to carry a pencil.

 

Just what I've been saying but you said it much more eloquently!

 

Quote

because the guy thought Rick killed Gareth with Michonne's sword.

 

I noticed that too, but even if he hadn't made that mistake, I don't see the comparison between high profile executions that the world would know about and Rick &Co killing some cannibals in the Little Church in the deep dark woods, away from any possible viewing or lesson learning by anyone. As has been said, I think the danger of Daryl, Tyreese who whoever deciding to murder and make a meal of anyone is near nil.

Edited October 30, 2014 by AngelaHunter

[NurseGiGi]

After giving it some thought I can understand why they're going to DC because why not?  They have no home right now and they might find something along the way. You know, should they suddenly agree with me that Eugene is full of crap.  My problem still is how all this was set up by the writers because it takes me completely out of the show when they portray the characters doing something that's so out of character, especially after all they've been through in such a short time.  Judith burbles and Rick says hey okay let's go!  Glen and Maggie make a spur of the moment promise and off they go! I'm thinking Rick and the Rickettes  put more thought into where they're going to take a crap than they have the DC business.

 

ETA: Also, what peach said.

Edited October 30, 2014 by NurseGiGi

[NurseGiGi]

And, I've said it before but I'm saying it again.  I love these forums and the discussions.  People can have a difference of opinion without it turning nasty.

[Pete Martell]

My only real issue with Rick's choice is still that he allowed the enemy too many variables. 

Example: When Martin was refusing to kneel, Rick should have killed him right there. One more bullet, to make sure he doesn't pull out another gun and kill somebody? Just get the job get done already. Life or death combat is not the time to be a cheapskate.

 

That's another case where I wonder if it was really about saving ammo or if he was just trying to make sure Martin didn't get a shot off at anyone in the church (or at him) before being killed.

 

All this ammo talk makes me wish we'd gotten a scene where Rick is standing over their corpses and he rasps, "Thanks for the ammo."

 

Cheesy, yes, but I enjoy those moments.

(speaking of which, I wrote off the whole "they're screwing with the wrong people" mini-controversy last season, but after hearing him say the dreaded f-word on the DVD version, I'm so, so annoyed they didn't use that take).

Edited October 30, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Nashville]

Rosita has become ten times more tolerable to me since she lost those booty shorts. 

 

Personally, I miss the booty shorts - but hey, maybe that's just me.  :)

 

True. But she's still barely more than a cipher. I hope they do something interesting with her.

 

Since last season, I've noticed a definite trend in the writing to focus on the two-fisted action-packed series of Crises du Jour (post-Prison scramble for survival / searches / kidnappings / reunions / Terminus / Terminus II / Terminus Lite / etc., etc.) to the detriment of character development.  The focal characters of CDB are largely unaffected by this trend, of course - but what character development has been portrayed of our latest additions?

• Abraham?  Probably ex-military, if for no other reason than you could land aircraft on that flattop.  Camos and crew cuts do not necessarily a soldier make, however.
• Rosita?  Zilch, zip, zero, nada.  No back story whatsoever, unless someone smarter than I can deduce one from the notion that hoop earrings, Daisy Dukes and an M16 constitute a fashion statement.
• Eugene?  Claims to have been a scientist of some unspecified sort pre-ZA, but hasn't demonstrated any specialized knowledge to date - just a talent for spouting buzzwords.

 

We can only hope the writers invest some time in developing these characters if they're going to stick around for any degree of time.  Judging from the headlong rush into a couple of brand spanking new CdJs, however, I ain't holding my breath.  :P

[Pete Martell]

Last season they tried to flesh out most of the established characters - they used the back half to do that. I think they are sending people to DC for the same reason. I guess we'll see if it happens. It's going to take me a lot to invest in Abraham. Eugene, I'm mixed. If it were me I'd give Rosita more of a backstory and then as we see how Abraham cares about her, we can care about him in turn. I'm not expecting that though.

[NurseGiGi]

Do we know anything at all about Rosita?  Has anyone said that she is Abraham's love interest?  For all we know she could be his sister or cousin.  I really don't remember, can anyone clarify?

[Pete Martell]

I think they said it last season at one point.

[kikismom]

Hah!  First post. I've been cyber-stalking you guys for a few episodes, wanna join the party.  Look forward to trading cutting edge (get it?) comments next Sunday! :)

Thank you for joining us! Next Sunday should be nice and lively, considering it will be a change of scenery (if the promo is any indication, and it oftentimes isn't).

Do you live comment?

[Trek]

I don't understand, since I don't know who would be "deterred". There was no one around who witnessed the deaths or who could be warned by them unless the bodies are left tied to trees in a place where people might pass and with a sign saying "These were cannibals and this is what will happen to YOU if you decide to chow down on people."

I'm with you there. And I'm thinking even placards won't accomplish anything.  Wasn't there an episode where the Governor's new crew where approaching some cabin and there were these bodies strung with placards saying "Lair," "Cheater", "Killer" or some such?  It obviously didn't deter the Governor since he proceeded to do all those things immediatly upon getting back (I consider beating someone on the head with a club while they are about tee off cheating at golf, so he "lied" to Martinez, "cheated" at the game and also "killed" him). So I'm thinking that when it comes to the ZA, some bodies strung with placards might scare some people (coff*Father Gabriel*coff), it's not going to deter anyone that you actually want to deter.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Trek

[nachomama]

CLOVERTRACEY, ON 29 OCT 2014 - 10:15 PM, SAID:
Hah!  First post. I've been cyber-stalking you guys for a few episodes, wanna join the party.  Look forward to trading cutting edge (get it?) comments next Sunday! :)

 

 

Welcome, how many walkers have you killed? How many people and why? Is that a sword in your pocket or are you just happy to see us?

[cal]

 

Welcome, how many walkers have you killed? How many people and why?

 

It seems to me that the longer we go in the ZA, the harder these questions will be to answer.  Who could possibly keep count of how many walkers they've killed in the past 18+ months?  The question about the number of people is getting to be almost as difficult.  Could Rick even answer the number count of people anymore?  I don't think he could answer it even if the question were just how many Termites did you kill?

[peach]

 I think it was frankly a lot more about revenge and a release of their terror and rage.  And perhaps that was necessary for those characters to reduce the trauma their experiences with the Termites caused, who am I to say?  I would imagine you'd have some pretty raging PTSD after the experience at the trough and in the meat locker or whatever that was.  The Termites certainly deserved what they got, and then some. 

 

I agree.  I don't think that should be underestimated.  They just experienced the most evil, sickening thing a person could experience.  It was about more than dispatching the threat, it was about blotting out this depravity from existence.  "With the surety of the hand of God" as someone else said in this thread.   I think there is a primal need to exert the power to overcome and DESTROY evil, to know you're bigger than it is.  The Termites themselves took that need and perverted it into the destruction of innocent people.

[nodorothyparker]

I'll buy this as well.  Over the course of what, maybe a week?  They'd been attacked by the previous Big Evil they hadn't really dealt with and lost their home and security as a result and were left scattered on the road.  Then they were trapped and treated as less than people, trussed up and literally dragged like pigs to the slaughter.  (Rick and Daryl had the added bonus of the ordeal with Joe and the Merletones to add to that tally.)  That's a whole lot of powerlessness to deal with in one fell swoop for people who'd gotten pretty adept at wielding the power of life and death and remaking their world as they needed to.  I also don't think we could realistically expect these people to walk away from the slaughter trough and not be fairly messed up in the head about it, regardless of what Glenn might think. To quote Shane, humans naturally tend to have a breaking point where "enough is enough."

 

So I can't really be bothered too much if they had one controlled yet blinding frenzy of rage where they took their power back and also definitively wiped out the single most evil thing they've come across yet.

[SlothLoveChunk]

Okay, so the reason Abraham wanted to leave RIGHTTHISVERYSECOND during the night was because Garreth and his crew were terrorizing them and he felt unsafe. They agreed to wait 1/2 a day. So when Garreth and the threat were taken out, what was the reasoning behind having to leave the instant it was dawn? For some plot point we'll find out about later?

[NoWillToResist]

 

How did Bob keep his neck/shoulder wound hidden anyway last episode? His shirt would have been torn and bloody. Those few cans of tinned food weren't worth a life.

 

In all fairness to Bob, it wasn't a few cans. They literally had a cart of food and supplies (maybe more...can't remember if the others had carts behind Michonne and Rick). Arguably still not worth a life (especially since, IMO, they could have killed some walkers from the safety of the upper floor before dropping into the sludge) but it wasn't just for 2 cans of peas or something.

 

So, since no one expressed any shock about the news of Carol and Daryl driving off together, does this mean that they told the group that they'd found a car while out getting water? I really liked how sure Rick was that they'd be back. He didn't have a moment's hesitation of "hm, did they just ditch our asses?". Heh. That's trust and faith, man.

[AngelaHunter]

So I can't really be bothered too much if they had one controlled yet blinding frenzy of rage where they took their power back and also definitively wiped out the single most evil thing they've come across yet.

 

Yes, and if they can do that AND save on ammo, I say good for them!

 

Wasn't there an episode where the Governor's new crew where approaching some cabin and there were these bodies strung with placards saying "Lair," "Cheater", "Killer" or some such?  It obviously didn't deter the Governor since he proceeded to do all those things immediatly upon getting back

 

I was thinking of that, actually. Not only did it not deter the Gov, but he looked thoughtfully at those placards as though he were considering, "Good reminder. It's high time I get back to a little lying and murder".  Which he did.

[JackONeill]

 

We can only hope the writers invest some time in developing these characters if they're going to stick around for any degree of time.  Judging from the headlong rush into a couple of brand spanking new CdJs, however, I ain't holding my breath.  :P

 

I think the writers routinely "overlook" (or shortchange) new characters.  It took forever to get to know Michonne.  Then came Tyrese.  And, oh, wait a minute, what's the name of that woman next to Tyrese - on, yeah, Sasha?!?  It took time for the writers to get around to them and they're all comic characters (I don't know if Sasha is).

[RedheadZombie]

Do we know anything at all about Rosita? Has anyone said that she is Abraham's love interest? For all we know she could be his sister or cousin. I really don't remember, can anyone clarify?

Tara made a comment about Rosita being "so in love" with Abraham that she blindly followed him. Or words to that effect.

[nodorothyparker]

Abraham also charmingly described Rosita's breasts as "damn near hypnotic" after he noticed Tara eyeing her.  So make of that what you will.

[JackONeill]

 

Abraham also charmingly described Rosita's breasts as "damn near hypnotic" after he noticed Tara eyeing her.  So make of that what you will.

 

I use that line all the time.  What's your point?????

 

[just kidding!!!!]

Seriously, I'm interested in Tara and Rosita (not in that way).  But they're both the last (for now) real unknowns.  It'll be interesting to see where the writers take them.

 

Along the same lines, I know Eugene has few friends (any?), but because we don't know much, he sort of intrigues me (not in that way).  Yes, I think he's a buffoon and full of shit, but . . .

 

As many people have wondered about: there was that moment when he hesitated in the church when Abraham told him to perform (not in that way).  What's the old saying: Still waters run deep.  We'll see.

Edited October 30, 2014 by JackONeill