Beth: You're going to miss me when I'm gone...

[walnutqueen]

I am a contrarian, so the more negative stuff I see leveled at Beth, and before her, Andrea and Laurie, the more I find to like about them.  Part of this is that I don't see the same level of venom aimed at male characters with "shortcomings".  I know it isn't overt or intentional, but I just can't shake the feeling that there is an undercurrent of something I cannot put my finger on ...

 

Despite the fact that I am an old crone, I identify with, and remember what it was like coming of age in a male-dominant world.  Beth is a fairly accurate portrayal of a young mind traumatized and trying to deal with that in her own way.  Whether or not the actress has the chops to portray this is a moot point, to me, since I see plenty of one-note characterizations on the penis end of the stick..

 

Which is probably why I stopped reading comic books back in the 1960s.  :~)

 

Beth may just be the "little dove" of TWD, but I think she has a lovely young voice that I will sorely miss when it is gone (by ME).

[ghoulina]

I don't think the Beth hate has anything to do with her being a girl. I've seen some horrible things posted about Carl over the years. When I first started watching this show and was lurking the TWOP forums (didn't want to post until I was all caught up), I found him to be practically the most hated character on the series. People were calling for his death daily. 

 

I don't think it has anything to do with Beth being young, or pretty, or a girl. From what I see, a lot of people just find the actress completely underwhelming and often annoying. Personally, I think she's okay as a background character who has some lines from time to time. But I just don't think she's strong enough to carry an entire episode. EK always seems unsure of herself, to me. Like she's not confident enough to let go and totally embrace her character. She comes across as awkward and stilted. She's had 4 seasons on this show now, but has not shown any progress, IMO. Chandler Riggs, OTOH, has grown by leaps and bounds. 

 

So, really, I place the blame for a lot of this dissatisfaction on the writers and producers. They should be able to tell that the actress hasn't grown much in all these years and just keep her as a secondary character. I imagine maybe they had more planned for Beth, but if the actress you chose doesn't have the chops, maybe it's better to scrap those plans and head down a different path? 

[AngelaHunter]

I am a contrarian, so the more negative stuff I see leveled at Beth, and before her, Andrea and Laurie, the more I find to like about them.  Part of this is that I don't see the same level of venom aimed at male characters with "shortcomings".  I know it isn't overt or intentional, but I just can't shake the feeling that there is an undercurrent of something I cannot put my finger on ...

 

As far as Andrea and Lori? It seems any female character, on any show, who has sex with a man she's not married to is automatically a "whore", and that really disturbs and disgusts me. Men, like Shane,  who do the same thing are never called derogatory names. Personally, I came to really like Andrea and was sorry when they killed her off. Lori? Good riddance.

 

Anyway, Beth...I don't dislike her (as long as she's not singing) but just find her character kind of flat. Centering a whole episode around trying to find some alcohol for her tried my patience but it had moments I really liked even though, were I Beth, there might be something else I'd want before dying and it wouldn't be no damned peach schnapps.

[editorgrrl]

I don't think the Beth hate has anything to do with her being a girl. I've seen some horrible things posted about Carl over the years.

I think viewers hate characters they perceive as "weak," from Carl and Dale to Eugene and Gabriel. Even Hershel before the barn burned down. Now that Beth's being written as a badass, I predict her approval rating will rise.

It bothers me that Talking Dead attributed Beth's badassery to Daryl & Hershel. Carl's becoming a badass, for which he gets the credit—not Rick.

[ParadoxLost]

I think viewers hate characters they perceive as "weak," from Carl and Dale to Eugene and Gabriel. Even Hershel before the barn burned down. Now that Beth's being written as a badass, I predict her approval rating will rise.

It bothers me that Talking Dead attributed Beth's badassery to Daryl & Hershel. Carl's becoming a badass, for which he gets the credit—not Rick.

 

I think my problem with Carl and Beth was the writing not them being perceived as weak.  They used them as the 'everyman/woman' character.  Carl became interesting when they got to the prison and other kids were around, freeing him to have a personality of his own instead of every kid in the ZA.  You had the kid that wanted to hold onto youth,  The kid that had a psychotic break.  Carl got to be fully fleshed out.  He got to build a relationship with Michonne.  They used Rick to contrast the changes in Carl as much as Carl to contrast Rick's changes.

 

I had hope for Beth for the same reason.  It felt like the addition of Tara and Rosita might free Beth from being the representative of the young adult coming of age in the ZA and make her more well rounded.  But unlike with Carl, they skipped over the pre-work and went straight to the pivotal episode.  So now it doesn't feel earned.  They really needed to set this up better.  They needed to have more than Daryl care that Beth is gone.  If no one else really cares that Beth is gone, even Maggie, then why should we?  They needed to do more to develop badass Beth if they wanted to go there because I have no idea where Rambo crossed with Die Hard Beth came from.

[Milaxx]

I am a contrarian, so the more negative stuff I see leveled at Beth, and before her, Andrea and Laurie, the more I find to like about them.  Part of this is that I don't see the same level of venom aimed at male characters with "shortcomings".  I know it isn't overt or intentional, but I just can't shake the feeling that there is an undercurrent of something I cannot put my finger on ...

 

I had no problem with Lori. Andrea bugged me from the moment her sister died, but only truly started to annoy me during the whole Woodbury storyarc. Then again, most of the cast annoyed me then so I chalk that up to bad writing. 

 

Beth has often been a big nothing for me and when they did give her something to do, it annoyed me to no end. The singing is chalk on the blackboard and try as EK might, she's not a strong enough actress to carry an episode solo. Again I think part of it is bad writing. The show never gave us reason to care for her. Maggie never seemed concerned about her sister after she jumped off the bus to go back to the prison to look for her. Darryl only mentioned her that once when he met up with the gang at Terminus. Maggie agrees to go off with Eugene & co before finding out of Beth is indeed dead or alive. If the show doesn't care why should I?

 

However, I for one have been just as hard on Tyreese. I *think* the writer's are trying to portray him as a gentle giant type, but at this point his behavior at crucial moments is almost as annoying as Beth's stupid singing. The difference for me is Tyreese can carry an episode.  So for me the difference is skill set and direction, not sexism.

[lawless]

As far as Andrea and Lori? It seems any female character, on any show, who has sex with a man she's not married to is automatically a "whore", and that really disturbs and disgusts me. Men, like Shane,  who do the same thing are never called derogatory names. Personally, I came to really like Andrea and was sorry when they killed her off. Lori? Good riddance.

That kind of reaction bothers me too, and though Andrea bugged me, it was never because she slept with Shane and the Governor. I was torn between admiring her mature, self confident approach to her sexuality but being horrified by her choice in partners.  I wanted to like Andrea very much, but I kind of despised everyone during Season 2 on the farm, and then in Season 3 her behaviors were so badly written and presented that she continued to come off badly to me, even though other characters improved.  I will always maintain that part of the problem was revealing the Governor's nature too soon.  We saw the heads in the fishtanks in the episode after he was introduced.  As a result, since the audience knew the Governor was unhinged and sadistic from the outset, Andrea came across as very foolish, even though she couldn't have known what the audience did.  But, we did know, and then every warning sign that Andrea missed took on magnified importance.  Also, the writers missed an opportunity to make Andrea's decision to stay in Woodbury while Michonne left more understandable. If the show had played up Andrea's illness and her fear of going back on the road into the uncivilized wilderness more, then her character would have come across better.

 

But I digress!!  Anyway, I wasn't fond of suicidal Beth during the Farm storyline, but I disliked almost everyone then, especially Lori, and it rubbed off.  I do remember that in the opening of Season 3, Beth was shown guarding the road with an axe while Rick et al pulled out a map and planned their next move, and that was an encouraging step forward for her.  The actress leave something to be desired, and so does the writing for Beth at times.  The quest for a drink with Daryl could have been handled more deftly than it was -- it seemed very dumb to me at the time.  If they show had written it as Beth's attempts to contrive a reason to get Daryl out of the woods because it was so miserable, and/or if they had connected her desire for a drink as a way of trying to come out of the protected child role Herschel had tried to create for her so that she could survive -- by showing that she could "handle" an adult thing that he actually could not, and by also maybe hinting she had the same weakness, it would have been better.

 

But I am willing to let her try to become a more interesting, respected character.  I would never have imagined that I would have come to view Carol as a badass, but I have.  However, Carol's transformation was better fleshed out, longer, and more earned, and it definitely comes with a negative side.

[Iguessnot]

I think viewers hate characters they perceive as "weak," from Carl and Dale to Eugene and Gabriel. Even Hershel before the barn burned down. Now that Beth's being written as a badass, I predict her approval rating will rise.

It bothers me that Talking Dead attributed Beth's badassery to Daryl & Hershel. Carl's becoming a badass, for which he gets the credit—not Rick.

They can write Beth as a badass but Emily can't deliver so it's a joke. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's unforgivable that the script had to tell me that Beth was tipsy from the moonshine because the actress could not display it. And no one can make be believe that the show's creators, directors, writers, etc were happy to discover such an utter lack of talent for such a simple task. However they have a story arc in progress and they have to play the hand they've been dealt. Nothing she has done henceforth has proved that she is capable of being more than an empty headed Orihime. 

 

I love badass Carol but she never changed from being a caregiver. If they ever get to settle down, she'll be supervising the homestead because that's her skillset. She's like Big Momma. She straddles both realms efficiency. Michonne will be the warrior and hunter/gatherer. Andrea got on my last nerves but she shouldn't be cooking & cleaning. I always like doofus Tara. She just needs to get her ankles taped up.

 

We're into 5 seasons with this show chocked full of great performances by actors with just a scene or two and some spanning seasons. Too bad Ms. Emily can't hold a candle to anybody, no matter how many opportunities she's been given.

[loveigniting]

I liked what someone said up top about Beth being everywoman. Thank you for pinpointing why I'm so meh about her. I'll defend her against sexist charges when she fulfills female gender roles, but I honestly do not care about her, not like I care(d) about Andrea, Lori, Michonne, Carol, Tara, Sasha, Rosita, etc. She's so very young blonde white, purportedly cishet girl whom people can treat like a OC and a stand-in for themselves because she's that hella generic. I saw something about fandoms being extra harsh on young blondes. Um. While Beth gets the sexist comments that every woman gets, with a little extra for being considered 'weak', she, nor the young blonde white characters that fit into societal roles, get anything compared to women who aren't white straight characters that fit into societal roles. I mean.

 

Women who don't fit into heteronormative gender roles or race or age get torn apart much worse in fandoms than cheerleader comments. It's all the women who are either too queer, too old, too sexual, too evil, too brown, too black, too masculine, too non-heteronormative that get passive-aggressive -isms and horrific shit thrown at them constantly. This show is interesting because Michonne, for example, is celebrated in fandom but, I suspect, she gets a pass because this fandom values strength. But, she also gets desexualized (and gets 'strong woman who don't need anyone' attached to her) which is a typical fate for black female characters in general fandoms. SMH. If Michonne or Sasha had been like Beth or god forbid, in Lori's position, I imagine the hate would be far worse. Scratch that. I know. If Beth gets hated on for being feminine, for fulfilling certain heteronormative gender roles, that's obviously wrong, as there is an implicit sexism in such comments.  If she gets hated on for being weak and that's tied to her being a girl, it's sexist. If it's not tied to her being a girl, it's not. This general fandom prizes strength and hates it when people don't adhere to that. 

 

But, speaking of the meta-narrative, people are absolutely allowed to not like white girl characters like her. There are so many iterations like her in media and online immersive fandoms generally adore them and have them as their faves, partly, I suspect, because of the demographics of most online fandoms. I don't and I have no interest in yawn-worthy iterations of same types (hopeful, symbol of light) being fulfilled by white girl characters. Yawn. I'll take a Tyreese over that - but that's also racialized by the gentle giant hollywood stereotype of big black men so I guess that's problematic too, even though that's an attempt to break past the societal stereotype of hypermasculine black men and I have a headache from thinking about all this.

 

What I wouldn't give for a poc female character getting to be feminine and hopeful and be the everywoman who fulfills female gender roles. That would be transgressive tbh and something I rarely see. Basically, my feelings about fandoms and media and representation influence my lack of interest in Beth. She hasn't deconstructed or brought anything new or non-cliche to her character type at all. So my dislike, my apathy more like, is mostly because of the generic nature of the character. 

Edited November 4, 2014 by loveigniting

[NoWillToResist]

I feel that if this episode had had a stronger and better story, it would have helped the character of Beth out.

 

But instead we got stuck in an incomprehensible bubble with Beth shoved in the middle so it all kind of sucked, IMO. I have trouble blaming the character/actress for the constant wide eyed stares because God knows most of the time I was staring in bafflement at my screen too. :)

 

That said, I must confess I was disappointed at her "emotionally dramatic" scene when she was struggling against the doctor (when she was protesting Noah being beaten). That was seriously cringe-worthy to me. WAY over the top "acting".

 

I really wanted to like this episode and hoped that it would make me more invested in Beth. And it didn't. :(  I still don't root for her to die, but she's still just...THERE, y'know?

Edited November 4, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[AngelaHunter]

I will always maintain that part of the problem was revealing the Governor's nature too soon.  We saw the heads in the fishtanks in the episode after he was introduced.

 

I've always thought the same thing. But, even though the Gov is presented as a comic-book super villain (I'm surprised he wasn't given a handlebar mustache to twirl) David Morrisey was able to show us so much more than that, giving a very complicated character with his nuanced performance. This is what real acting talent can do and I"m afraid Emily Kinney does not have, nor will she ever have, that talent. I'm afraid she really needed to stay as a sort of peripheral character, as she doesn't shine on her own. It's made more painfully obvious in her scenes with a good actor like the doctor (don't know his name) and instead of this elevating her performance,  she just falls flat.

[Iguessnot]

There was something rather comical in how they filmed Beth getting slugged and having the next shot showing her calmly getting patched up. All I could do was smirk and say the girl can take a punch. 

[Pete Martell]

They can write Beth as a badass but Emily can't deliver so it's a joke. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's unforgivable that the script had to tell me that Beth was tipsy from the moonshine because the actress could not display it. And no one can make be believe that the show's creators, directors, writers, etc were happy to discover such an utter lack of talent for such a simple task. However they have a story arc in progress and they have to play the hand they've been dealt. Nothing she has done henceforth has proved that she is capable of being more than an empty headed Orihime. 

 

To me the moonshine scene was incredibly silly and, while I'm sure other actors could have improved it, few could have made it believable. She should have been drunk off her ass, but she had tons of dialogue - no one wants to see a character slurring and muttering for half an episode. It was just some attempt to somehow have her on Daryl's level and it felt very false.

 

I think the show has made some tell-not-show mistakes with Beth, but I don't think they've been anywhere near as bad about this with her as they were with Andrea. They go overboard in some of the interviews or Talking Dead about her strengths, but in the show itself, I think they're relatively honest - she's a young girl struggling to adapt. She's tough and plucky but she's not a superhero. She's still learning, and no one is going to be there to tell her how awesome she is. 

 

I feel like Emily Kinney is good within her range. When they write Beth as a sassy miss with a soft heart, as they did sometimes when she was with Daryl, it can annoy me, but I actually thought Kinney did well in this past episode. Beth was, to me, believably tough in the hospital. She took beatings, she took being used and manipulated, and we saw how this slowly changed her. I thought Kinney managed to take the transition from the wary but helpful Beth of the early scenes to the completely IDGAF, burnt out Beth of the final scenes. The key scene of the episode was the somewhat manic grin on her face when Noah escaped. That scene was Beth dying, it was Beth saying goodbye to herself and being glad that she got something, anything out of the sacrifice. And I thought Kinney absolutely nailed it.

 

I also don't agree that not having other characters worry about her absence means the writing has failed to make us care. The days of the group being all that bothered by someone being gone are mostly in the past. Daryl is really the only one who still gets that emotional about people left behind (certain people, anyway). Maggie not mentioning her annoys me a great deal, but that's more about what it does to Maggie's character. 

 

For me the only real mistake with Beth is that they have never written her as part of the group dynamics. I missed seeing that and I think it hurt the character's development. 

 

I think it can be easy to resent Beth if you see her as a young woman trying to replace Carol, who is a POV character for many fans. This is why I hate the shipping wars and the show's winking at those. They pit Carol and Beth against each other.

 

And it's easy to resent Beth if you see her trying to take a spotlight from the other young ladies on the show, as by and large TWD has a terrific younger female cast who often get underused.

 

That's why I try really hard not to do either of those things. I just separate all of that from the character and actress.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Iguessnot]

I just can't buy that it's the writers fault. For young girl struggling to adapt, I'll nominate Mikka. Her performances always outclassed Beth no matter how small. 

[Pete Martell]

I don't think it's entirely the fault of the writers. I think Emily Kinney has her limits as an actress. I was just talking about the moonshine scene. I thought it was a stupid scene. If Danai or Melissa were in the scene, they would have done a better job, but I'd still say it was a stupid scene. They should have just had her take a few sips from the Schnapps.

[The Mighty Peanut]

As far as Andrea and Lori? It seems any female character, on any show, who has sex with a man she's not married to is automatically a "whore", and that really disturbs and disgusts me. Men, like Shane, who do the same thing are never called derogatory names. Personally, I came to really like Andrea and was sorry when they killed her off. Lori? Good riddance.

I wasn't an Andrea fan but I am with you 100% on the whore thing. For Pete's sake, she was single and had sex with two guys over a period of a little more than a year, one of whom she was in a serious relationship with. Big deal. Yet, I don't have enough digits to count how many times I read someone contemptuously stating she was "thinking with her crotch". Shane sure didn't get the same treatment when he slept with his (presumed) dead best friend's wife. Like I said on TWOP many moons ago....it wasn't that she was promiscuous, it was that she had horrible taste in men and would've had better luck boinking a walker.

Edited November 4, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[mightysparrow]

I liked what someone said up top about Beth being everywoman. Thank you for pinpointing why I'm so meh about her. I'll defend her against sexist charges when she fulfills female gender roles, but I honestly do not care about her, not like I care(d) about Andrea, Lori, Michonne, Carol, Tara, Sasha, Rosita, etc. She's so very young blonde white, purportedly cishet girl whom people can treat like a OC and a stand-in for themselves because she's that hella generic. I saw something about fandoms being extra harsh on young blondes. Um. While Beth gets the sexist comments that every woman gets, with a little extra for being considered 'weak', she, nor the young blonde white characters that fit into societal roles, get anything compared to women who aren't white straight characters that fit into societal roles. I mean.

 

Women who don't fit into heteronormative gender roles or race or age get torn apart much worse in fandoms than cheerleader comments. It's all the women who are either too queer, too old, too sexual, too evil, too brown, too black, too masculine, too non-heteronormative that get passive-aggressive -isms and horrific shit thrown at them constantly. This show is interesting because Michonne, for example, is celebrated in fandom but, I suspect, she gets a pass because this fandom values strength. But, she also gets desexualized (and gets 'strong woman who don't need anyone' attached to her) which is a typical fate for black female characters in general fandoms. SMH. If Michonne or Sasha had been like Beth or god forbid, in Lori's position, I imagine the hate would be far worse. Scratch that. I know. If Beth gets hated on for being feminine, for fulfilling certain heteronormative gender roles, that's obviously wrong, as there is an implicit sexism in such comments.  If she gets hated on for being weak and that's tied to her being a girl, it's sexist. If it's not tied to her being a girl, it's not. This general fandom prizes strength and hates it when people don't adhere to that. 

 

But, speaking of the meta-narrative, people are absolutely allowed to not like white girl characters like her. There are so many iterations like her in media and online immersive fandoms generally adore them and have them as their faves, partly, I suspect, because of the demographics of most online fandoms. I don't and I have no interest in yawn-worthy iterations of same types (hopeful, symbol of light) being fulfilled by white girl characters. Yawn. I'll take a Tyreese over that - but that's also racialized by the gentle giant hollywood stereotype of big black men so I guess that's problematic too, even though that's an attempt to break past the societal stereotype of hypermasculine black men and I have a headache from thinking about all this.

 

What I wouldn't give for a poc female character getting to be feminine and hopeful and be the everywoman who fulfills female gender roles. That would be transgressive tbh and something I rarely see. Basically, my feelings about fandoms and media and representation influence my lack of interest in Beth. She hasn't deconstructed or brought anything new or non-cliche to her character type at all. So my dislike, my apathy more like, is mostly because of the generic nature of the character. 

 

I don't know if I agree with everything you said, but I really appreciate your comment because you made me think.  So thank you.

 

As a Black woman I've always said that people fought and died so I could be frivolous and silly.  To give me the right to be girly and in need of protection.  I don't think people realize how tiresome it is to always be the 'strong Back woman'.  I love Michonne 'the badass' but I adore the times that Michonne allows herself the freedom to be silly and goofy.  Except for the 'silly cheese'.  Hated that.

Edited November 4, 2014 by mightysparrow

[kelnic86]

 

I think it can be easy to resent Beth if you see her as a young woman trying to replace Carol, who is a POV character for many fans. This is why I hate the shipping wars and the show's winking at those. They pit Carol and Beth against each other.

I get annoyed when this happens. I like both Carol and Beth. I don't like all this Beth vs Carol stuff. They were never in a competition against each other. If it's just because of Daryl, well then I think that's just sad. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

I don't like all this Beth vs Carol stuff. They were never in a competition against each other. If it's just because of Daryl, well then I think that's just sad.

 

And that's why I'm rooting for them to team up and get out of danger together, saving themselves before their 'rescuers' presumably arrive. Carol's lost her family, Beth has lost hers. Wouldn't it be lovely for them to bond and not just share Judith duties?

 

Flip this stupid ship war...bring the two female sides of the triangle together (not romantically) - get rid of the audience-fueled notion of them competing against each other...

[Nashville]

I just had an image of a Daryl/Carol/Beth hookup - but then realized they would never air it, as the resulting explosion would make the Atlanta CDC's demise look like a fart in a hurricane.

[AngelaHunter]

I wasn't an Andrea fan but I am with you 100% on the whore thing. For Pete's sake, she was single and had sex with two guys over a period of a little more than a year, one of whom she was in a serious relationship with. Big deal. Yet, I don't have enough digits to count how many times I read someone contemptuously stating she was "thinking with her crotch". Shane sure didn't get the same treatment when he slept with his (presumed) dead best friend's wife. Like I said on TWOP many moons ago....it wasn't that she was promiscuous, it was that she had horrible taste in men and would've had better luck boinking a walker.

 

Agree with everything (well of course I do!) except for Andrea having "horrible taste in men." With Shane,  I don't think she wanted him in particular or to have a relationship with him. She was just high on adrenline that day, wanted sex and he was there. Could have been anyone, really. Very understandable to me.

 

As for the Governor, he was kind and courteous to her, clearly showed that he admired her and wanted her and that was something she needed. I'm sure she remembered that no one came back for her after the farm fell (and indeed, Daryl was the only person who said they should go back) and the Gov. with his interest in her probably helped her get back some self-esteem. She knew nothing that WE knew, just that an attractive and powerful man wanted her, made her feel desirable and important.  I blame her not one bit for that. I have to say I'd have done the same thing in those same set of circumstances.

[kikismom]

L.A, Times has a few interesting words about Beth (and makhttp://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-the-walking-dead-recap-hey-remember-beth-20141031-story.htmles a familiar observation about Rick)

[bosawks]

I sort of wish they had linked up Beth's "self actualization" with either Carol or Michonne rather than Daryl.

I think Norman is a good actor when he's in his wheelhouse but I think Melissa & Danai have chemistry with air. They just might have been able to bring a weight to Emily's performance that would give this storyline life.

[AngelaHunter]

L.A, Times has a few interesting words about Beth (and makhttp://www.latimes.c...1031-story.htmles a familiar observation about Rick)

 

 

Like!

 

 

There's just something about anyone who has spent time with Rick that makes them an agent for chaos.

 

 

[Mu Shu]

I sort of wish they had linked up Beth's "self actualization" with either Carol or Michonne rather than Daryl.

I think Norman is a good actor when he's in his wheelhouse but I think Melissa & Danai have chemistry with air. They just might have been able to bring a weight to Emily's performance that would give this storyline life.

That's it.   Emily Kinney is a small actress, and I don't mean physically.    She can't fill the frame,  and she has one vacuous, veal calf being led to slaughter expression to the point of looking tetched.   Melisssa and Danai use every inch of the space they're given.   Contrast that one brief scene of Danai when she realizes it's Daryl in the woods to Emily's entire episode of slack jawedness.    Kinney can't emote to save her life, and Danai has it in spades.     It burns my muffins that so many Beth centric episodes have put superior actors on the back burner.     And yes, Melissa and Danai have great chemistry with everyone in the cast and can carry quiet epodes and action packed ones as well.    All Emily does is waste precious time we should be spending with the money actors.    She's a poor actress. 

[mightysparrow]

Personally, I would be happy if both Beth and Carol didn't make it out of the hospital so we can kill this shipping bullshit once and for all.

All over the internet, Caryl fans are celebrating, thinking that once Beth is gone nothing will stand in Caryl's way.

  And maybe other female characters can get a look in this season.

 

I loved Andrea.  I wasn't surprised that she was called a whore when she had the audacity to decide that she was a sexual being but I didn't care what the people who called her that thought anyway.  I loved her friendship with Michonne and miss it.  There don't seem to be any female friendships on TWD.  It looked like Maggie and Sasha were becoming friends but that got pushed aside for other things like cannibals and Queen Carol.  I'd like to see Michonne and Sasha become closer, now that Bob is dead.  Michonne would be able to help Sasha deal with her grief.

 

In my opinion, the failure of Beth as a character comes down to the actor who played her.  I think it was a huge mistake to cast an older actor to play teenaged Beth, especially an actor as unskilled as EK.  I think an actual teenager would have been able to convey the pathos of a sheltered young girl coming of age in the ZA.  And it would have stopped any shipping before it began.  It's one thing for fangirls to push for the pairing of a teenager and a man approaching middle aged when the teenager is played by a woman who's almost thirty.  If Beth had been played by an actual teenager, the absurdity and inappropriateness of a relationship between her and Daryl would have been obvious and we all would have been spared a lot of bad acting.

[AngelaHunter]

If Beth had been played by an actual teenager, the absurdity and inappropriateness of a relationship between her and Daryl would have been obvious and we all would have been spared a lot of bad acting.

 

Agree about the bad acting, but about Daryl and Beth...I used to see it the way you do, but now I'm thinking in an apocalypse when you're at risk every day of being killed by zombies, raped AND killed by mauraders or eaten by cannibals, age and what is an appropriate match seems kind of irrelevant.

 

The horrific things that Beth has seen and awful things she's had to do make her not your average pre-ZA teenager, and Daryl seems backward and stunted when it comes to intimate relationships so they just might be emotionally on the same level. Of course the fact that no one is exactly in the position to shop around for a mate narrows the field even more.

[Emily Thrace]

I think it can be easy to resent Beth if you see her as a young woman trying to replace Carol, who is a POV character for many fans. This is why I hate the shipping wars and the show's winking at those. They pit Carol and Beth against each other.

This exactly, I feel like generally this where a lot of the hate comes from. Its not really even about Beth for some, its about their own insecurities about younger women. Thats why irrelevant crap like NR's personaly life keeps getting dragged into the whole mess. Although I do think Beth was set up to replace Carol's old caregiver role somewhat I don't think she was supposed to replace Carol as a character. Just because one female gets focus doesn't mean another autmatically has to lose. I just think they wanted to put Carol in a new role and Beth fits into that role but also works as emotional center.

 

The thing I really don't get is hating on a female character for getting screentime. In the end any female character getting focus is a good thing. The ratings Beth got in her episode are going to take away any excuse the writers have for not doing the same for Michonne or Maggie down the road.

 

Something else I've noticed is how often Beth gets hate for simply being very traditionally feminine.  I have to scratch my head at people calling Beth "weak" for simply feeling. A lot of times it seem like Beth is getting flack for simply being "too emotional". It feels like character's like MIchone get praise for being "kickass" and "stoic" and what they really are getting praised for is being masculine. Especially since I feel like emotionally Beth is braver than Michonne, since Beth never hesitates to reach out and conect to people like Noah or Daryl even if it means losing. (I'm not trying to pick on Michonne here I love her for very different reason. Mostly I'm just sick of Beth being compared to Carol.)

 

I honestly don't care if Beth ever takes out another walker, she makes herself useful by taking care of Judith the the rest of the group. Beth is someone who would rather take of Judith than go on runs and I like that the show put value in that.Someone will always need to do the laundry and take care of the kids and I like that show is saying Beth is worth something even ijn a more tradintional role. I mean my grandmother never really did much outside of taking care of her family but I don't know anyone tougher. Real strength isn't swagger its knowing your skills and doing whats best for the whole group.  No army, society or tribe has ever functioned without women like Beth and I don't see why the ZA or CDB would be any different.

 

As for EK's acting personally that' subjective and I think shes solid especially after this epsiode. You can feel free to disagree I just don't see the point in debating something like that.

[mightysparrow]

Agree about the bad acting, but about Daryl and Beth...I used to see it the way you do, but now I'm thinking in an apocalypse when you're at risk every day of being killed by zombies, raped AND killed by mauraders or eaten by cannibals, age and what is an appropriate match seems kind of irrelevant.

 

The horrific things that Beth has seen and awful things she's had to do make her not your average pre-ZA teenager, and Daryl seems backward and stunted when it comes to intimate relationships so they just might be emotionally on the same level. Of course the fact that no one is exactly in the position to shop around for a mate narrows the field even more.

 

I find it difficult to understand why an emotionally backward and stunted 40+ year old man is a suitable mate for a teenage girl.  What it makes him is fucked up.  Even in a zombie apocalypse a fucked up man twice her age isn't a suitable candidate for a teenager, no matter how slim the pickings are.  And the pickings can't be that slim since Beth managed to get at least two boyfriends in little over a year.  Her batting average was pretty damn good.

 

If Daryl wasn't the show's dreamboat the conversation wouldn't be taking place.  Eugene seems emotionally stunted and backward.  Is he a suitable candidate for Beth?  And what about Carl?  If a guy twice her age is okay, what about a guy a few years younger?

Edited November 5, 2014 by mightysparrow

[JBody]

To everyone who mentioned Beth's smile as she was being held down and watched Noah escape: I thought it was a call back to Hershel's beatific smile right before he was beheaded.

[ghoulina]

To everyone who mentioned Beth's smile as she was being held down and watched Noah escape: I thought it was a call back to Hershel's beatific smile right before he was beheaded.

 

Awww, you know I didn't even think of that. Probably because I was just waiting for the episode to be over. But now I kind of want to go and rewatch that, because that was one of my favorite Hershel moments ever. 

[AngelaHunter]

I find it difficult to understand why an emotionally backward and stunted 40+ year old man is a suitable mate for a teenage girl.  What it makes him is fucked up.

 

It's not as though Beth is 15 like Carl.  I believe she's supposed to be at least 19 by now. I know I was was pretty mature at that age, without having seen my father beheaded and family members being eaten alive.

 

Eugene seems emotionally stunted and backward.  Is he a suitable candidate for Beth?

 

Since Beth and Eugene never spent days together, caring about and helping each other,  and have never even met, I'd say no.

 

People who share traumatic experiences are often drawn together and as long as they're consenting, and legally adults, I have no problem with age in the post-ZA world.

[mightysparrow]

It's not as though Beth is 15 like Carl.  I believe she's supposed to be at least 19 by now. I know I was was pretty mature at that age, without having seen my father beheaded and family members being eaten alive.

 

Since Beth and Eugene never spent days together, caring about and helping each other,  and have never even met, I'd say no.

 

People who share traumatic experiences are often drawn together and as long as they're consenting, and legally adults, I have no problem with age in the post-ZA world.

 

Seeing your father beheaded doesn't make you mature.  It makes you traumatized.  Just like never having to protect or care for yourself in a zombie apocalypse until AFTER your father gets beheaded doesn't make you mature. 

 

At this point discussing whether or not Beth and Daryl are the couple of everyone's dreams is a wee bit of a moot point.  Thank God!

Edited November 5, 2014 by mightysparrow

[Nashville]

Seeing your father beheaded doesn't make you mature.  It makes you traumatized.  Just like never having to protect or care for yourself in a zombie apocalypse until AFTER your father gets beheaded doesn't make you mature. 

 

Oh, I don't know... the last time my dad was beheaded, we popped Skittles and held up scorecards. And the time before that we did Rumchata shots.

;D

[Emily Thrace]

I find it difficult to understand why an emotionally backward and stunted 40+ year old man is a suitable mate for a teenage girl.  What it makes him is fucked up.  Even in a zombie apocalypse a fucked up man twice her age isn't a suitable candidate for a teenager, no matter how slim the pickings are.  And the pickings can't be that slim since Beth managed to get at least two boyfriends in little over a year.  Her batting average was pretty damn good.

 

If Daryl wasn't the show's dreamboat the conversation wouldn't be taking place.  Eugene seems emotionally stunted and backward.  Is he a suitable candidate for Beth?  And what about Carl?  If a guy twice her age is okay, what about a guy a few years younger?

I think the thing your missing is that Beth is damaged too, she just damaged in a different way. If Beth was just normal eighteen year old I'd probably agree with you. However Beth has lost most her family had a lot of resposibility and had several different kinds of trauma thrown her way so while Beth is a lot of things normal isn't one of them. Her whole reaction to Zach really underlined how Beth has been affected by everything that happened to her.

[Watcher0363]

Hey Emily, Taylor Swift has a new album out. You and her should get together and perform Shake it Off together. Because there be haters everywhere.

P.S. Now I get the 'Don't hate me because I am beautiful' commercial from way back when.

[mightysparrow]

Hey Emily, Taylor Swift has a new album out. You and her should get together and perform Shake it Off together. Because there be haters everywhere.

P.S. Now I get the 'Don't hate me because I am beautiful' commercial from way back when.

 

That has to be it.  It can't have anything to do with the utter pointlessness of the character or the incompetence of the actor who plays her.  Just jealousy because she's so darn cute.  

 

Thanks for proving me right.

[Iguessnot]

It's not as though Beth is 15 like Carl.  I believe she's supposed to be at least 19 by now. I know I was was pretty mature at that age, without having seen my father beheaded and family members being eaten alive.

 

Since Beth and Eugene never spent days together, caring about and helping each other,  and have never even met, I'd say no.

 

People who share traumatic experiences are often drawn together and as long as they're consenting, and legally adults, I have no problem with age in the post-ZA world.

Seriously, Beth is physically grown, so I don't care. However I find her demeanor incompatible with Daryl. Sheesh, Lizzie had a more mature demeanor than Beth. If we were talking about the Claimers gang, I could see Beth being a woman of interest. But for the men of CBD group, I don't see any attraction, even with Carl.

 

Besides the likes of Madonna et al, have been mentoring young girls/teens/women (and by default all the males,too) for decades with the approval of many and yet they want to maintain illusions of childhood until 30. That ship has sailed.  

[blueridgerobin]

I've held off every time I've seen the "Beth is hated because she's beautiful" meme, but I just can't do it anymore.

 

Firstly, this POV assumes that females who aren't Beth fans are unattractive hags who envy good looks.  Personally, I've never had any trouble in that area, but I still don't care for Beth.

 

Secondly,  Beth = beautiful...REALLY?  If she's our standard of beauty, we've really slipped.  She has no lips and an overbite.  She's cute in a wan, mousy sort of way.  But beautiful...sorry, no.  Michonne is beautiful when she smiles.  Maggie is gorgeous, a knockout.  I'm a big fan of both.  I think it's great when a lovely woman makes the most of her beauty.

 

Emily Kinney has always grated on me because she apparently thinks a Southern accent consists of keeping on with the Valley Girl-speak and merely dropping every g.  As a Southerner, I find many American actors mangle Southern accents.  The British actors on TWD, by contrast, do a very good job.  So does Norman Reedus.

 

When Beth was a fringe character, I could take her...and after all, she is Herschel's daughter.  But pushing her front and center, giving her this big storyline, well, it feels forced, and for me it doesn't work.  Kinney can't pull it off...or maybe it's just that I don't care enough.  But the "hate" due to her "beauty"...I can't deal with it anymore.

[mightysparrow]

I've held off every time I've seen the "Beth is hated because she's beautiful" meme, but I just can't do it anymore.

 

Firstly, this POV assumes that females who aren't Beth fans are unattractive hags who envy good looks.  Personally, I've never had any trouble in that area, but I still don't care for Beth.

 

Secondly,  Beth = beautiful...REALLY?  If she's our standard of beauty, we've really slipped.  She has no lips and an overbite.  She's cute in a wan, mousy sort of way.  But beautiful...sorry, no.  Michonne is beautiful when she smiles.  Maggie is gorgeous, a knockout.  I'm a big fan of both.  I think it's great when a lovely woman makes the most of her beauty.

 

Emily Kinney has always grated on me because she apparently thinks a Southern accent consists of keeping on with the Valley Girl-speak and merely dropping every g.  As a Southerner, I find many American actors mangle Southern accents.  The British actors on TWD, by contrast, do a very good job.  So does Norman Reedus.

 

When Beth was a fringe character, I could take her...and after all, she is Herschel's daughter.  But pushing her front and center, giving her this big storyline, well, it feels forced, and for me it doesn't work.  Kinney can't pull it off...or maybe it's just that I don't care enough.  But the "hate" due to her "beauty"...I can't deal with it anymore.

 

Thanks for being more mature and eloquent than I was capable of being.  Excellent comment!

[nodorothyparker]

So we're officially dropping the pretense that anyone really finds anything about this character compelling because they honestly believe she's well written or well thought out or well acted?  It's just all about the pretty pretty girl and all the meanies who hate her because she's so pretty?

 

I've always sort of suspected that.

Edited November 5, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[blueridgerobin]

Thank you, mightysparrow.  I appreciate that.  I've been enjoying your posts.

[mightysparrow]

So we're officially dropping the pretense that anyone really finds anything about this character compelling because they honestly believe she's well written or well thought out or well acted?  It's just all about the pretty pretty girl and all the meanies who hate her because she's so pretty?

 

I've always sort of suspected that.

 

It's about time, don't you think?

[Ocean Chick]

I happen to think Lauren Cohan is smokin' hot, but that doesn't make me hate the character of Maggie.  Same with Danai.

 

I like the idea of a character like Beth, but the character we have is badly written and even more badly acted.  I don't hate her, but she bores me to tears.  I would gladly trade her for another young teen character of any gender.

 

I do think Emily Kinney is very good looking.  I have no problems with her looks (except for the fact that she's fast aging out of her role).  But she's not the most beautiful of the group, and her acting skills are flat.  Good thing she has her singing to fall back on.  And seems to be gearing up a modeling career as well.

[ghoulina]

I've held off every time I've seen the "Beth is hated because she's beautiful" meme, but I just can't do it anymore.

Firstly, this POV assumes that females who aren't Beth fans are unattractive hags who envy good looks.  Personally, I've never had any trouble in that area, but I still don't care for Beth.

Secondly,  Beth = beautiful...REALLY?  If she's our standard of beauty, we've really slipped.  She has no lips and an overbite.  She's cute in a wan, mousy sort of way.  But beautiful...sorry, no.  Michonne is beautiful when she smiles.  Maggie is gorgeous, a knockout.  I'm a big fan of both.  I think it's great when a lovely woman makes the most of her beauty.

Emily Kinney has always grated on me because she apparently thinks a Southern accent consists of keeping on with the Valley Girl-speak and merely dropping every g.  As a Southerner, I find many American actors mangle Southern accents.  The British actors on TWD, by contrast, do a very good job.  So does Norman Reedus.

When Beth was a fringe character, I could take her...and after all, she is Herschel's daughter.  But pushing her front and center, giving her this big storyline, well, it feels forced, and for me it doesn't work.  Kinney can't pull it off...or maybe it's just that I don't care enough.  But the "hate" due to her "beauty"...I can't deal with it anymore.

 

THANK YOU! I agree with everything in this post. But I am mostly getting fed up with the notion that those who aren't Beth fans must be ugly, jealous spinsters. I try to be humble, so I'm not going to go on about my looks, but I don't think I'm ugly. I also don't think EK is the prettiest woman on this show. That would be Melissa McBride, IMO. Lauren is pretty good looking too, except when her smile goes full Joker. Danai has an amazing smile and a killer body. On the show, Beth is kind of bland as far as looks go. She's a lot prettier when walking the red carpet. I won't begrudge her her looks, but she's certainly not some total knockout as far as I'm concerned. 

 

So, yea, no. It has nothing to do with her age or looks, and everything to do with her just being a lackluster actress who is now kind of spoiling the vibe with all that they've given her to do lately. 

[walnutqueen]

Well, I'm an ugly old spinster and I like Beth.   :-)

[NoWillToResist]

I find an interesting problem with her eyes; their colour is absolutely beautiful (IMO) but I find there's a leaning towards 'bug eyed' which is very unattractive to me.

 

And this concludes my deep, philosophical, critical investigation of Beth for today. ;)

[bosawks]

I think there is a strong correlation between your attractiveness and whether you like Beth.

 

The troll who lives in my basement can't stand her.  Hates her even more than billy goats.......

[nodorothyparker]

The thing is I generally don't care to get into who's prettier pissing contests or trying to rate people by their appearance because it's such a subjective thing.  And I really hate what it reduces women to.

 

But over and over again people want to narrow it to this.  And it demeans the character you profess to love so much as well as the entire argument for her if that's really the best you can say for her.  Because believe it or not, all women over 30 are not Bette Davis in All About Eve sitting around fretting and scheming against the young ingenue while we're eaten alive by our insecurities over younger women.  Despite what someone claimed above we're really just not, and if you live long enough you do get to find that out.  If pressed, I'll even say I have no issue with the actress's appearance.  She's pretty enough, but so are the rest of the women in this cast.  They've each got something about them and there isn't a bad looking one in the bunch. 

 

I'm not watching the show just for pretty though.  If I'm going to give you an hour of my week every week, I want to be entertained.  I want to be made to think and feel.  I don't want to get to the end of the hour like I did Sunday night feeling like my time was just wasted.  Beth doesn't succeed on any of this on any level.  She was competent enough as a secondary background character but the acting and presence just isn't there to be a lead character.  She's just kind of there.  On a show with other really talented actors who are being sidelined for whatever that was on Sunday night, that's really not enough.

[shanndee]

This exactly, I feel like generally this where a lot of the hate comes from. Its not really even about Beth for some, its about their own insecurities about younger women. 

 

Oh, Emily. No. Just no. 

 

I am a woman of approximately the same age as Melissa McBride. Believe me when I tell you that the last thing in the world that I am insecure about is a younger woman. I am enormously grateful to have that time period of my life behind me. I wouldn't be that age again for anything! Life experience and maturity have given me confidence, contentment, security, belief in my abilities, and the knowledge that I have value. Am I afraid of losing my husband to some pretty young thing? Not a chance in hell!

 

So, no. I dislike Beth for all the character related reasons we've been discussing since I've joined this board. Being "threatened" has nothing to do with it. 

Edited November 5, 2014 by shanndee