Beth: You're going to miss me when I'm gone...

[halgia]

Dougal! It was in the Season 5 promo!!!

Ugh, I stopped watching that because it felt so spoilery. Sorry. :|

[Emily Thrace]

I'm not one of the people who want to see Daryl with 'middle-aged' Carol.  I don't care for Carol either.  And I think that it's ironic that Beth fans claim that anyone who dislikes the character is some past-it crone who want the stud for themselves.  Does that mean that Beth fans are airhead, teenyboppers who don't have a clue?  I can't speak for anyone else, but my dislike of Beth has nothing to do with Daryl.  Beth is a crappy enough character on her own, she doesn't need help.

 

You may not fall into that steroetype but there definitely those who believe it. There are actually a group of Caryler's who insist the other side are "kindergartners". I think it about making themselves feel like the other side is less of a threat. Its been quiet here but it is open warfare on tumblr and a couple other places.  Frankly I think "maturity" is pretty much a moot point for anyone taking part in a shipper war but that why I don't post over there much.

 

What did the deleted scene say about why Beth wanted a drink?  I didn't see that one.

It was on the dvd as the deleted scene from Still.(It should be on youtube somewhere) It made it fairly clear that Beth wanted to drink because she was angry with Herschel. It was an interesting character note and i wish they kept it.

 

I find every other female character more compelling, even Rosita and Tara, and it will annoy me when one of them is sacrificed for Beth.  Unfair as it may be I'm almost proactively annoyed with her character because of this.

This is something I don't get.  How is it Beth's fault if TPTB kill off Tara or Rosita? Why does it have to be one or the other? I really don't get pitting female character's against each other like that.

[GreyBunny]

They have a pretty big group right now and I'd guess that the producers are going to start thinning the herd.  One of the slots where they're probably going to cut a character is the young female slot.  Tara, Rosita, Maggie, Sasha, and Beth.   It would be a shame if they cut a better character played by a better actress (which is all of the rest of them) because some producer had the misguided idea to continue to pimp Emily's annoying singing career.  

 

From the episode thread:

 

I think I'm going to have to form a neo-punk band called "The Flaming Zombies". Our first single will be called "Die, Beth, Die!"

 

I would buy that album and go to that concert.

Edited October 16, 2014 by GreyBunny

[kikismom]

I would buy that album and go to that concert.

Bring me back a T-shirt and a poster.

[SoSueMe]

You may not fall into that steroetype but there definitely those who believe it. There are actually a group of Caryler's who insist the other side are "kindergartners". I think it about making themselves feel like the other side is less of a threat. Its been quiet here but it is open warfare on tumblr and a couple other places.  Frankly I think "maturity" is pretty much a moot point for anyone taking part in a shipper war but that why I don't post over there much.

 

 

I need help with another term, please, bolded above. Does  ship or shipping mean getting written out of the show? Thanks in advance.

[mandolin]

If you "ship" people, you want them in a relationship. Carol and Daryl "shippers" want them involved with each other.

[RedheadZombie]

It was on the dvd as the deleted scene from Still.(It should be on youtube somewhere) It made it fairly clear that Beth wanted to drink because she was angry with Herschel. It was an interesting character note and i wish they kept it.

 

Damn that selfish bastard Hershel!   Didn't he realize getting abducted and then decapitated was going to force Beth to take off those rose-colored glasses and ruin her day?  I hate her more now.  Go get drunk to spit in your recovering alcoholic father's face, because you're pissed he wasn't superman - just an old man with a wonderful heart. 

[blueridgerobin]

I usually just lurk and read here, but I can't keep shut about Beth.  I don't hate her, but I found her irritating from Season 2 on.  Her voice and some of her pronunciations just grate.  I don't find her as pretty as some...to me she's washed out, almost fluorescent, and sort of plain.  She was a fringe character, hanging around on the edge of the group, taking care of Judith, and that was fine, but I just don't think she merits a big storyline. 

 

They need to keep her far away from Daryl. I don't care about the age difference; as others have said, it's the ZA and that isn't an issue anymore. But Beth makes Daryl stupid.  If he's going to be with anyone, IMO it should be Carol---by damn, she has EARNED him.  As for preferring "middle-aged" Carol, well, hell, Norman Reedus is middle-aged himself, and he looks it....and that's fine.  I don't even need to see an in-your-face relationship between the two of them, but I'd like to see some little indicators that something is going on.

 

Oh, and Beth isn't too bright, either.  There she was, at night, with Daryl on a porch, the two of them with their barriers down and getting close....he says, "It's time to go inside", and what does she do?   She chirps, "Let's burn it down!"

 

Tactical error, honey.  BIG tactical error.

[kikismom]

 

 

Oh, and Beth isn't too bright, either.  There she was, at night, with Daryl on a porch, the two of them with their barriers down and getting close....he says, "It's time to go inside", and what does she do?   She chirps, "Let's burn it down!"

 

Tactical error, honey.  BIG tactical error.

LOL! Oh lord yes! Millions of women viewers yelling " You IDIOT!"  at their TV screens.

It reminded me of the scene in The Big Bang Theory where StewartFromTheComicStore walks Penny to her apartment door after their first date and she says "Would you like to come in and have coffee?" and he says "Isn't it a little late for the caffeine? It's 11 o'clock at night!"

Edited October 17, 2014 by kikismom

[ghoulina]

I do agree that Beth makes Daryl stupid. He has never made more idiotic mistakes than he did when they went to that funeral home. 

[RedheadZombie]

And that stupidity lingered for a while.  Why else would Daryl throw himself down in the middle of the road and get caught by surprise by a raping and pillaging gang?  He's got his brain back now.  If Beth has to come back, I'd prefer if Maggie and Glenn rescue her.  It would be far more meaningful (to me).  What little I care about Beth, it's strictly because she's Maggie's sister and Hershel's daughter.  I don't want Maggie to suffer another loss.

[blueridgerobin]

He never would have opened that door if his brain hadn't been fogged by Miss "Oh-Look-They-Embalmed-A-Walker-Isn't-It-Beautiful."

 

The regard I do have for Beth is mainly because she's Herschel's daughter, RedHeadZombie...I agree.  I didn't think of it, but I would love to see her rescued by Maggie and Glenn.

[raven]

She doesn't bother me.  She does take responsibility - being the main caregiver for Judith and she went back for her when the prison fell.   She kills zombies.  She hasn't really had anything especially interesting to do.

 

I'm one of the few who liked "Still" and didn't get a romantic vibe (the only romantic vibe I get on this show IMO is Rick/Michonne).  For two people who had never really seemed to spend much time together I thought Beth and Daryl worked together pretty well.  Yeah Daryl got a case of the stupids, and I didn't like the twisted ankle stuff but for me it was more about two people with nothing in common trying to survive together after losing everything.  Or maybe I'm not much of a romantic heh plus I was so glad to be out of the damn prison.  I took Daryl's collapsing in the middle of the road not so much about Beth specifically, but as him feeling like he's failed in every way because he lost the last thing he felt responsible for.

 

I like seeing all types, and she's been sheltered, wanted to die, had others taking care of her, moved on to taking care of others and has been forced on her own now.  I'm curious to see what happens to her.

[blueridgerobin]

Agree on the reason he collapsed in the road....also, IMO, he felt he had lost the last member of the group he loved, and I don't think he can handle being alone longterm.   But the sidelong glance and the "you know...you know" when she kept asking him what made him understand there were good people in the world...gah.   I did find her "oh crap" expression interesting.

 

 

[Emily Thrace]

I usually just lurk and read here, but I can't keep shut about Beth.  I don't hate her, but I found her irritating from Season 2 on.  Her voice and some of her pronunciations just grate.  I don't find her as pretty as some...to me she's washed out, almost fluorescent, and sort of plain.  She was a fringe character, hanging around on the edge of the group, taking care of Judith, and that was fine, but I just don't think she merits a big storyline. 

 

They need to keep her far away from Daryl. I don't care about the age difference; as others have said, it's the ZA and that isn't an issue anymore. But Beth makes Daryl stupid.  If he's going to be with anyone, IMO it should be Carol---by damn, she has EARNED him.  As for preferring "middle-aged" Carol, well, hell, Norman Reedus is middle-aged himself, and he looks it....and that's fine.  I don't even need to see an in-your-face relationship between the two of them, but I'd like to see some little indicators that something is going on.

 

Oh, and Beth isn't too bright, either.  There she was, at night, with Daryl on a porch, the two of them with their barriers down and getting close....he says, "It's time to go inside", and what does she do?   She chirps, "Let's burn it down!"

 

Tactical error, honey.  BIG tactical error.

 

Actually it occured to me that it might not have been.  Almost a dozen walkers came out of the woods as Darryl and Beth were walking away from the shack. If Darryl and Beth had just gone inside and fallen asleep they could have easily woken up to a herd at the door and no way out. With the fire they could walk a way while the walkers were distracted. Afterall they wound trapped there due to a couple showing up there already it could have easily happened agian especially given how many walkers were apparently in the area. 

 

I do agree that Beth makes Daryl stupid. He has never made more idiotic mistakes than he did when they went to that funeral home.

 

1)Beth is not responsible for Daryl's actions. Daryl is grown up, he is the one who opened that door not Beth. The whole idea that "women are distraction" is loaded with so much patriarchal bull crap I'm not even sure where to start. Had  Beth flashed Daryl and he had opened the door then she would be at fault as it stands I don't see it.

 

2)Daryl was distracted because he has no idea how to process emotions not because Beth is some kind of Mata Hari. As NR has said about six different ways now Daryl felt something new at that table with Beth  Daryl wasn't sure what it was that was distracted him. He was trying to understand what he felt and that would have happened regardless of who he had those feelings for.  I don't think Daryl has worked out what he feels for Beth yet, although judging by her expression Beth has.  Knowing Daryl the whole group will figure how Daryl feel's about Beth before he does.

 

3) Beth is the only person who has actually gotten Daryl to not only talk about his feeling but to process them. That's what Still was about to point Beth helped Daryl deal with his past and accept it.

 

Damn that selfish bastard Hershel!   Didn't he realize getting abducted and then decapitated was going to force Beth to take off those rose-colored glasses and ruin her day?  I hate her more now.  Go get drunk to spit in your recovering alcoholic father's face, because you're pissed he wasn't superman - just an old man with a wonderful heart.

Anger is completely normal and valid part of the grieving process. It is especially common when the person dies unexpectedly and/or is the victime of violence.  It just means Beth is human.  Besides given the extreme situation Beth was in it may have been easier to be angry. Beth couldn't respond to Herschel's death in a normal way, that might have gotten herself and Daryl killed, so she had to find another way to deal.

[Seawolff]

Awesome post, Emily Thrace. There is a compelling reason for Beth to interact with Daryl. Carol and Daryl have acknowledged a few things about themselves with each other. They are similar people and have made abstract acknowledgements about their lives in the company of abusers. They have bonded over how they have both risen above that and become forces to recon with. They have each other's backs. What Beth and Daryl had to hash out was basically, who the hell are you? You COULD be the stereotypical opposite of me, but since stereotypes are not actually real, there must be a unique human under there. If Beth is everything Daryl thinks he never had and Daryl is everything Beth thinks she'll never get to do, then they have a lot to talk about because it's not true.

What they have in common: both love and care for others very much but hide their feelings. Neither has found a serious partner....and neither has lost one. They've both lost their parents. Both of them are not happy just surviving, they must have a reason to survive. I feel the relationship is equal, too, Daryl can see himself enjoying the company of a joyful young girl just as much as Beth appreciates Daryl's wry attitude and practical ability to survive.

I don't see them as romantically interested, but they have an intriguing attraction to each other based on how opposite they both are. If they rarely had cause to interact at the prison, it's understandable that now that they ended up together their relationship would have to progress.

She was lost on Daryl's watch. He won't feel whole till he makes that right. He didn't like his brother leaving, or Carol being banished. He is ripe to take a little control of something and I think it's to rally the group to detect what happened to Beth.

[GreyBunny]

As posted earlier, Norman Reedus is as good as the actor he plays off of.  He's brilliant with Andy Lincoln and Melissa McBride because they're good actors that he actually has chemistry with.  Emily sucks (she sucks with everyone else too) and that, unfortunately, means Norman sucks when he's in scenes with her.  

 

The brief "you're my brother" scene between Rick and Daryl had far more depth and emotional resonance to me than an entire episode between Beth and Daryl.

 

Beth needs to go.  

 

You're going to miss me when I'm gone

 

Nah. I can hit a moving target.

Edited October 17, 2014 by GreyBunny

[kikismom]

Oh, and Beth isn't too bright, either.  There she was, at night, with Daryl on a porch, the two of them with their barriers down and getting close....he says, "It's time to go inside", and what does she do?   She chirps, "Let's burn it down!"

 

Tactical error, honey.  BIG tactical error.

 

 

Actually it occured to me that it might not have been.  Almost a dozen walkers came out of the woods as Darryl and Beth were walking away from the shack. If Darryl and Beth had just gone inside and fallen asleep they could have easily woken up to a herd at the door and no way out. With the fire they could walk a way while the walkers were distracted. Afterall they wound trapped there due to a couple showing up there already it could have easily happened agian especially given how many walkers were apparently in the area. 

 

Just going to jump in here Emily Thrace to suggest that your tactical analysis is fine...but you were thinking of plans for a different sort of ambush on a different sort of hard target than we were.

(Me at least.)

[Watcher0363]

Agree on the reason he collapsed in the road....also, IMO, he felt he had lost the last member of the group he loved, and I don't think he can handle being alone longterm.   But the sidelong glance and the "you know...you know" when she kept asking him what made him understand there were good people in the world...gah.   I did find her "oh crap" expression interesting.

I do not know how they wanted that scene to play. But in real life I have seen that play out as. The guy thinking, that was way better than I thought it would be. And the woman thinking oh my god does he love me or something. It was just sex, good yeah, but just a hookup

[ghoulina]

Actually it occured to me that it might not have been.  Almost a dozen walkers came out of the woods as Darryl and Beth were walking away from the shack. If Darryl and Beth had just gone inside and fallen asleep they could have easily woken up to a herd at the door and no way out. With the fire they could walk a way while the walkers were distracted. Afterall they wound trapped there due to a couple showing up there already it could have easily happened agian especially given how many walkers were apparently in the area.

 

Yea, I had absolutely zero problem with them starting the fire. We all know walkers are easily distracted. I know that's not WHY they did it, but anything that can draw a bunch of walkers to one spot is a good thing. It would be made better, though, if people would take advantage of such a situation and put down a bunch of them while they can. But that's another topic. 

 

And I actually kind of liked the cathartic burning of the house, and all of Daryl's issues. I liked that despite their class issues they were able to bond. I didn't have a problem with Still. It wasn't my favorite episode, but it wasn't awful either. At least the latter half. 

 

1)Beth is not responsible for Daryl's actions. Daryl is grown up, he is the one who opened that door not Beth. The whole idea that "women are distraction" is loaded with so much patriarchal bull crap I'm not even sure where to start. Had  Beth flashed Daryl and he had opened the door then she would be at fault as it stands I don't see it.

 

I completely agree that Daryl is responsible for his own actions. I'm not blaming Beth for Daryl acting stupid, it's just that sometimes certain people bring out bad parts of you. It's still your choice to let that happen, but there you have it. It's kind of like how a lot of people think Glenn has become "lame" and "boring" since he hooked up with Maggie. I don't mind it entirely, but I definitely liked Glenn best last season when he was on his own, LOOKING for Maggie. He became a badass again. 

 

I guess, overall, that's why I kind of detest relationships, in general, on this show. They can be too much of a distraction, in a time when you really need to keep your wits about you. Lori was responsible for distracting the hell out of Shane and Rick at various times. The Governor relationship made Andrea more detestable than ever. The only one that hasn't bothered me is Carol and Daryl, and that's basically because they are the anti-relationship. The light flirting on the surface, the deep bond below the surface, but nothing official going on - that I can deal with. But a bunch of moon-eyed teenagers, who can't shoot a gun because they're worried about dying and hurting their loved one....it can get a bit eye-roll-worthy at times. 

[diebartdie]

 

1)Beth is not responsible for Daryl's actions. Daryl is grown up, he is the one who opened that door not Beth. The whole idea that "women are distraction" is loaded with so much patriarchal bull crap I'm not even sure where to start. Had  Beth flashed Daryl and he had opened the door then she would be at fault as it stands I don't see it.

THANK YOU!!!! Man I am so glad someone finally articulated that, it was getting rather annoying so many people saying Beth is both an empty, worthless air stealer while also a being capable of completely undoing Daryl.

[LilySilver]

Now that Beth has been forced out into the world and into some kind of action I retain hope that the actor can make something of her. I'm still not convinced that the problem has not been with the character/writing itself, though I wouldn't go so far as to say Emily Kinney is one of the greats. Plenty of the characters I like on this show aren't played by standout talents, but between adequate writing and adequate acting it has balanced out.

I do feel like there is this readiness to be annoyed with the sweet young woman character that's a hurdle a male character and actor might not face. Aside from my Carl HAAAAAATTTTTEEEE, I never get as annoyed with the male characters as I have with some of the females. (Physically cringed and/or sneered anytime Lori or Andrea were even on my screen.) There's this kind of "Ugh, she's worthless," eye-rolling thing that's at the surface with Beth, where viewers seem more ready to give say, Bob or Tyrese, both with their own serious weaknesses, a chance.

I don't know if it's the writers who just don't know what to do with women, really, or if it's some cultural conditioning, or both. But the pale blond young woman who has been sheltered and refused to deal with reality does bring out a negative reaction in a lot of people. Why not the bitter, loser, angry ne'er-do-well? Oh yeah, we find that sexy. Dangerous.

I'm very interested in the ambiguity of the Daryl/Beth scenes, especially the one mentioned above in the kitchen of the house just before she was grabbed. I love Emily Thrace's analysis that Beth brought Daryl forward emotionally in a way he had never experienced--that he was a different person after their conversations, that he had hope because of it, that he felt stronger and less broken. Maybe that's what the "You know..." was about. She done touched him in a spot he ain't never been touched before! At the time I was fervently hoping that's what it was, but then there was that alarmed look on Beth's face that didn't escape me either. (It's always distracting to me, scenes like this--did TPTB mean for it to be ambiguous, or did they just fail to communicate what they were trying for?)

Why not, though, if they can make something tolerable of Beth's character?--and it does seem to be the direction they are going. She's up and running, killing walkers and feeling all empowered. Beth should have been the one to completely fall apart when they left the prison. She should have been the one curled up in fetal position while Daryl drug her along (can you imagine Daryl having to be the one to get Beth to deal with her feelings?!) as the hero. I like that Beth saved Daryl, whatever else it means, and I'm hoping Emily Kinney can make her into another character we care about.

Edited October 17, 2014 by LilySilver

[Watcher0363]

The posts everywhere in the Walking Dead forum have been very entertaining. One thing that has come to light is that. Hey Beth and Tyreese, being on the mommy track in the ZA is still a bad demeaning thing. Both of you, get on the dead inside non apologetic, git her done track.

[walnutqueen]

Agree on the reason he collapsed in the road....also, IMO, he felt he had lost the last member of the group he loved, and I don't think he can handle being alone longterm.   But the sidelong glance and the "you know...you know" when she kept asking him what made him understand there were good people in the world...gah.   I did find her "oh crap" expression interesting.

 

For some reason, I thought he was alluding to Hershel in that scene, but didn't want to open a fresh wound.  They'd recently stopped at the "Father" grave; didn't he leave something on that headstone?

[kikismom]

He left flowers. More yellow flowers. Those have become a motif like when the Mafia sends your family your vest with a dead fish wrapped in it. "Lizzie sleeps with the mulch"

Edited October 17, 2014 by kikismom

[Iguessnot]

 

Beth is both an empty, worthless air stealer while also a being capable of completely undoing Daryl.

 

Well, a lack of oxygen would be the undoing of anyone.

[ghoulina]

I do feel like there is this readiness to be annoyed with the sweet young woman character that's a hurdle a male character and actor might not face. Aside from my Carl HAAAAAATTTTTEEEE, I never get as annoyed with the male characters as I have with some of the females.

 

Andrea was definitely the most annoying to me, but my husband couldn't STAND Dale. We have both been plenty irritated at Tyrese a time or two. And I see people all over the internet who just detest Carl. I, honestly, don't think the writers have a problem writing for women....but I do think they struggle with the younger characters. 

[LilySilver]

Yes and after I wrote that I remembered my instant loathing of everything having to do with the Governor and his storyline, so I have to roll it back a bit.

I still don't think the women on the show are written with the complexity of the men. Rick is complicated, but Carol is a bit cracked. Tyrese is a gentle giant, but Beth is weak. Poor Andrea and Lori's characters it seemed were written specifically to be annoying, lol. Maggie is all about Glenn. Sasha seems pretty tough but we don't know her well and now it seems she'll be all about Bob. Michonne and Carol are really the only two who seem to be allowed to have interesting arcs really of their own--and now possibly Beth might get one too. I hope so, but if it just ends up being about her mooning over Daryl that really takes away from the growth I see happening in the character.

Agreed, though--there were male characters who grated. Shane, Dale... I would still argue that even Dale got to be a more complex, complete person than Andrea ever did. And Shane had plenty of interesting layers, no matter what one thought of him.

I hope Beth gets to be an actual person now, with her own thoughts and motivations and personality, rather than defined by whose daughter or girlfriend she is.

Part of it is the nature of any ensemble cast. Part of it is my own PTSD from the way women are portrayed on GoT, ha.

Edited October 17, 2014 by LilySilver

[PunkyMouse]

I didn't think Beth abandoned Judith? In fact, I thought that was why she got off the bus in the first place, to go find her? They weren't together when shit went down and everyone decided to leave. Or do you mean the fact that she came outside during the stand-off and left Judith inside? That I don't have a problem with. Beth can at least shoot a gun, and they probably needed all hands on deck. Lizzie and Mika were old enough to watch an infant for a little while. So they were the ones that had the baby, not Beth. Beth never had her in that scenario, but she did try to go and find her, and that's how she got separated from the bus and wound up with Daryl. 

 

 

 

I just meant that once it was clear that the prison was going to be overrun, instead of taking off and going to get Judith, which is her day job, she insisted on playing Annie Oakley.

 

ETA:

 

 

I like that Beth saved Daryl, whatever else it means, and I'm hoping Emily Kinney can make her into another character we care about.

 

THIS irritated me beyond belief! The entire storyline was written like bad fanfic. Daryl was a complex, grown-ass man up until this point and then suddenly he was turned into a caricature, the semi-mute angerball who learns to live again because of the virtuous ingenue. Ugh! I was waiting for them to waltz around the cabin while Angela Lansbury sang "Beauty and the Beast". 

 

Emily Kinney has had more than enough time to make Beth someone to care about. Nothing more to see here. Time to move on.

Edited October 17, 2014 by PunkyMouse

[RedheadZombie]

I do feel like there is this readiness to be annoyed with the sweet young woman character that's a hurdle a male character and actor might not face. Aside from my Carl HAAAAAATTTTTEEEE, I never get as annoyed with the male characters as I have with some of the females. (Physically cringed and/or sneered anytime Lori or Andrea were even on my screen.) There's this kind of "Ugh, she's worthless," eye-rolling thing that's at the surface with Beth, where viewers seem more ready to give say, Bob or Tyrese, both with their own serious weaknesses, a chance.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I don't have a problem with a female character because I perceive her as making the male character's life difficult.  I never hated Lori and Andrea - I saw them as the victims of subpar writing.  I spent a lot of time defending Carol back when it seemed I was her only fan.

 

I don't hate women - I am one.  I'm not a middle-aged woman hating on the sweet girl with the fresh ovaries.  I'm not viewing Beth and Daryl through a patriarchal lens.  In fact, I think it's a whole lot more patriarchal to think a character in his forties (Daryl has to be that old, because he's made references that imply that's his age, and Merle was played by a sixty year old), is too good for a woman four years older than him, and instead should be with an eighteen year old.

 

I think Rick is probably the deepest character, but this is his story, and he is the hero.  I don't think Rick gets away with stuff that Carol is slammed for.  There are plenty of people who called Rick psycho for ripping out someone's throat, even though his son was about to be raped.  I do think the writers do a better job of justifying Rick's actions.  He was saving Carl from a rapist, and Carol was "saving" people through the deluded thought of killing people about to die, and smearing their highly contagious blood everywhere.  If the characters were swapped, I would judge those actions exactly the same.

 

I don't dislike Beth for being a sheltered naïve girl.  I don't hate her because she functioned as a nanny instead of a warrior.  I strongly dislike Beth at this moment, because she is an underdeveloped character portrayed by a poor actress who doesn't seem (to me) to be portraying what she thinks she is portraying.   She is such a MarySue character.  I found her playing the piano and singing while Daryl mooned over her a little gross.  Her finding the incredible beauty that some nut bothered to embalm a zombie was beyond odd.  And I just can't buy that Beth is this sudden proactive, tracking, fighter, yet wants to get drunk and burn down a cabin, because she's feeling some childish anger for Hershel.  But, I've also been complaining for a while that Daryl has become a MarySue.

 

I've been a vocal critic of their problem portraying female characters, in the past.  It's not perfect, but it's greatly improved.  Yes the women have fresh highlights, white teeth, and groomed eyebrows - I don't have a problem with that.  Other than Rick and Daryl, the male characters are freshly groomed as well.  What I do like about the female characters is they actually look like real women.  No huge implants to be found.  The female characters look a lot more like Ripley from Aliens, than Megan Fox in what ever teenage boy franchise she starred in.

[LilySilver]

THIS irritated me beyond belief! The entire storyline was written like bad fanfic. Daryl was a complex, grown-ass man up until this point and then suddenly he was turned into a caricature, the semi-mute angerball who learns to live again because of the virtuous ingenue. Ugh! I was waiting for them to waltz around the cabin while Angela Lansbury sang "Beauty and the Beast".

Oh, I didn't see it that way at all (although I can see it now that you explain it that way)--To me it was only that everyone has got to crack at some point in this whole ZA deal. Daryl had found his place in this new world. In so many ways he had more to lose at the moment of the prison falling than he'd ever had to lose before the ZA. More to lose than anyone else. And he had lost Merle and moved on into his new self, his new family.

Then *boom* it's gone, and the people he loves gone with it, and everything he has done and believed (and kind of let his guard down for) is gone. He was going to break--other people already have, from Michonne to Rick to Andrea to Carol to Bob...

So all of that was very much in character for Daryl imo. There had to be someone with him to pull him back. Now, if it were MY fanfic it might have been Michonne. But what better character foil than Beth? The polar opposite of everything he has experienced and been, both before and after the ZA. Opposite trajectories until that moment when both of them have to deal with the loss together.

Take away the romantic overtones (debatable) and I think that's a great opportunity for characterization for both of them--and a chance for Beth's character, whatever it will be, to finally break out and become...something.

I'm not, as I've said, excited about a romantic pairing between the two, but as far as an opportunity for revealing interactions in that particular circumstance, I don't know who Daryl could have been more effectively paired with. Both of them opening themselves up to the pain in very different ways. Both of them losing the things they'd clung to to define themselves post-ZA. I just found it interesting. And awkward.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Dougal

[PunkyMouse]

 

To me it was only that everyone has got to crack at some point in this whole ZA deal. Daryl had found his place in this new world. In so many ways he had more to lose at the moment of the prison falling than he'd ever had to lose before the ZA. More to lose than anyone else. And he had lost Merle and moved on into his new self, his new family.

 

I totally get that point, and if they had skipped the whole "Saved By The Belle" schtick and gone straight to a broken Daryl meets up with  Psycho Claimed group I would have been fine with it. Because I could imagine Daryl being engulfed by grief and rage and joining up with those dudes as a grasp at another "family" unit until he realized who and what they really were and had his moment of clarity come from within.  I didn't think he needed Beth to save him.

Edited October 17, 2014 by PunkyMouse

[LilySilver]

To me it was just "saved by a friend" and worked narratively with giving Beth something to do and letting the viewer get to know her a little bit as they try to make her into something besides the nothing some people complain of her being. So it killed two birds with one stone. Unfortunately (in my view) it opened up a can of worms in introducing the possible romantic feelings (if it did at all).

I don't think Daryl could have found hope with Joe's bunch, but yes, having him meet back up with Michonne, Carl, and Rick would have been the moment he'd have come back to himself if he had the strength for it by then.

Daryl off and alone again, though, would have been less appealing to me, and I was no fan of Beth up until then (I could never remember her name). If they want to bring her to the forefront, more power to them, and I look forward to seeing if they write her character as well as Carol's (debatable) or Michonne's, or as poorly (imo) as Maggie's or Lori's. Or maybe she'll just be partially developed, like Sasha. I hope it's interesting; I'm not a viewer who "loves to hate" characters. I like characters who are well done, like Merle redeemed or not, and *really* badly written characters I just want off my screen. Up to this point I haven't seen Beth as being either one of those.

Edited October 17, 2014 by LilySilver

[GreyBunny]

Agree with the fanfic analogy given by PunkyMouse.

I have had my beef with male characters:  Dale was an annoying busybody who couldn't keep is nose to himself, Shane was a rapey psychopath, and Phillip could have been a good villain if he hadn't been overexposed and wore out his welcome about a dozen episodes before he FINALLY died.  I'm not sorry to see them gone.  Andrea, Lori, and Beth make the list for annoying women.  Carol and Rick both made my list at different times but managed to jump off.  So it's 50-50 for me.

 

I really hope the producers did decide Daryl is gay, primarily to shut down ANY possibility of a romantic storyline with Birdbrain Beth.

Edited October 18, 2014 by GreyBunny

[LilySilver]

I guess that's what I'm saying.  Male characters are annoying when some layer of their full characterization is annoying.  Female characters are more likely annoying in their stereotypical and even assumed characteristics.  How is Beth a birdbrain? Because she looks like one?  Because she sings? I found it simply awful, but her friends at the prison seemed to be enjoying it!  It's not really a feminist critique, just an acknowledgment that these writers seem to have a less sure hand at making females multidimensional.  I don't think it's misogynistic or anything sinister like that. Just a weakness, and perhaps only a perceived one...perceived by me.....

 

I'm really not even arguing that her portrayal has been anything more than empty, but that's what she's been given so far.  We really haven't known much about her at all, except as a space-filler---the naive, sweet, innocent.  That's it. We started to see something else when she didn't bat an eye at her boyfriend's death.  And we saw a little more with Daryl.  I'm just reserving judgment until she's a bit more fleshed out. No pun intended.

Edited October 18, 2014 by LilySilver

[blueridgerobin]

Beth is not responsible for Daryl's actions. Daryl is grown up, he is the one who opened that door not Beth. The whole idea that "women are distraction" is loaded with so much patriarchal bull crap I'm not even sure where to start. Had Beth flashed Daryl and he had opened the door then she would be at fault as it stands I don't see it.

I don't subscribe to the concept of "patriarchy", and I'm not politically correct. But I do realize the dynamic that happens between men and women. The reality is that women do distract men. Walk by one sometime and watch his reaction. Beth isn't the most experienced person in the world; she didn't realize the effect she was having on Daryl, as evidenced by her alarmed expression when it dawned on her what was happening.

Greg Nicotero said he thinks Daryl is a virgin. Personally, in view of the fact that he's Merle Dixon's little brother, I tend to think Merle might have taken him to a whorehouse for a birthday present , and it's been a long dry spell since then. Keeping in mind that Daryl had just experienced a catharsis of sorts, that he's emotionally on the level of a teenaged boy (or thereabouts), and that he was ripe--or overripe---to be attracted to someone, yeah, he temporarily lost it, and Beth was definitely an influence.

Ghoulina, it looks like I need to practice my quote function, but what you said about Daryl and Carol and their "anti-relationship", with the flirting on top of the deep bond----that's exactly what I love about the thing they have going. I'd like to see it kicked up a notch, especially after the last episode, but if they keep it going that way I can live with it./

[shang yiet]

I see Beth as far from a Mary Sue. She can't even save herself from the men who kidnapped her, she's not given badass moments, no one on the show is transfixed by her magical charms, she doesn't have magical bow-hunting or katana skills, she's not a seducer, etc. Her piano and singing abilities mean nothing in the ZA world.

 

I thought her 'burn the cabin down' moment showed some maturity and understanding of Daryl's pysche, she knew it would be cathartic for him. As for her anger over her dad's death, why shouldn't she feel that way and express it anyhow she wants?
 

 

just an old man with a wonderful heart.

 

Beth already knows that. Hence her anger and grief.

[kikismom]

 

 Personally, in view of the fact that he's Merle Dixon's little brother, I tend to think Merle might have taken him to a whorehouse for a birthday present , and it's been a long dry spell since then. 

You read my mind. I always thought Merle's constant smutty mouth would make it impossible for him to have a younger brother that he didn't see as a project to introduce to trashy sex. Plus, we have the Daryl remark that Merle was "shacked up with some cocktail waitress" when 9 year old Daryl was lost. And when Daryl is hallucinating Merle in "Chupacabra", Merle refers to "after all the time I spent trying to make a man of you?!"

 

I don't think Daryl is a virgin...I've said I don't think he's ever taken a girl on a date or asked a girl to dance, probably not even called a girl on the phone. But that would be because he'd grow up really inhibited by the way Merle had to jump into everything and make it sordid. If a girl wasn't scared off by Merle she'd run off with Merle and either way Daryl didn't need one more nasty loss to his brother.

 

Hell, I even think if Daryl liked anything...reading a book, listening to a song, having one good shirt to wear---he'd never let it be known because Merle would pounce on that vulnerable reveal like a jackal.

[blueridgerobin]

Yes, I believe Merle did as least as much to screw Daryl up as his father ever did...probably more.  "Chupacabra" gave me the sense that Merle hounded him to death about everything. 

 

There was no way Merle would let his little brother stay a virgin past, what....fourteen, maybe?

[CletusMusashi]

Except when she's singing, whining for alcohol, or burning down their only shelter in the middle of the night, I don't actually find Beth as annoying as many seem to.

I also don't think the actress is bad, except at acting drunk. However, I think it ultimately says something about how interesting the character is that so much of the discussion in her thread is about other characters. Beth just hasn't got the personality to be an important figure on a show about zombies and super-Carols and hungry hungry hipsters. She's a redshirt, or at least she would be if the writers hadn't insisted on pretending she was more than that. Season four didn't even get good until after she disappeared. Perhaps that means something.

Edited October 19, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[NoWillToResist]

 

I like how she allowed him to have hope and brought out a softer side of Daryl that we never got to see before.

 

I've seen this before and I confess I'm puzzled by the statement. I felt that we'd already seen plenty of softness and caring from Daryl in relation to Carol and Judith and Carl. The destruction of the prison and presumed loss of everyone else made Daryl shut down again until Beth kind of pulled him back from the brink, but I didn't see anything *new* from him during those eps with Beth.

 

In and of itself, I had no issues with the young idealistic girl being able to pull the cynical, emotionally shutdown bear out of his funk. The problem I had was the fanfic-y shit that someone else upthread mentioned. The "ooo, I twisted my ankle! - well, lemme give you a piggy back!", "ooo, this is scary, Imma hold your hand!", "you're sad...ATTACKHUG!!!"...just...ugh. It just smacked to me of TPTB trying WAY TOO FUCKING HARD to force a connection between the two characters.

 

I amused myself by channeling Mean Girls and was teasingly all "stop trying to make Daryl/Beth happen."  And then I went online and was shocked to see support for them as a romantic pairing and then I had to step away. I do not engage in the Carol/Daryl/Beth shipping war but I know it exists and words cannot express how much I fucking hate its existence.

 

I would like Beth to grow as a character, and hopefully, having spent whatever-it's-been amount of time away from her usual crew, she'll have increased in personality, thus giving something interesting for the actress to work with. It would also be nice if Beth and Maggie remembered that they are fucking sisters...

[nodorothyparker]

Kikismom, taking your excellent post to the Daryl thread.

[kikismom]

Thanks; it totally belongs there, not here. But we get swept up don't we? :-D

[Mu Shu]

Beth doesn't even need to die. Just cousin Oliver her.

[Watcher0363]

May Beth rise to prominence like the bit players of the original CSI

[mightysparrow]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't have a problem with a female character because I perceive her as making the male character's life difficult.  I never hated Lori and Andrea - I saw them as the victims of subpar writing.  I spent a lot of time defending Carol back when it seemed I was her only fan.

 

I don't hate women - I am one.  I'm not a middle-aged woman hating on the sweet girl with the fresh ovaries.  I'm not viewing Beth and Daryl through a patriarchal lens.  In fact, I think it's a whole lot more patriarchal to think a character in his forties (Daryl has to be that old, because he's made references that imply that's his age, and Merle was played by a sixty year old), is too good for a woman four years older than him, and instead should be with an eighteen year old.

 

I think Rick is probably the deepest character, but this is his story, and he is the hero.  I don't think Rick gets away with stuff that Carol is slammed for.  There are plenty of people who called Rick psycho for ripping out someone's throat, even though his son was about to be raped.  I do think the writers do a better job of justifying Rick's actions.  He was saving Carl from a rapist, and Carol was "saving" people through the deluded thought of killing people about to die, and smearing their highly contagious blood everywhere.  If the characters were swapped, I would judge those actions exactly the same.

 

I don't dislike Beth for being a sheltered naïve girl.  I don't hate her because she functioned as a nanny instead of a warrior.  I strongly dislike Beth at this moment, because she is an underdeveloped character portrayed by a poor actress who doesn't seem (to me) to be portraying what she thinks she is portraying.   She is such a MarySue character.  I found her playing the piano and singing while Daryl mooned over her a little gross.  Her finding the incredible beauty that some nut bothered to embalm a zombie was beyond odd.  And I just can't buy that Beth is this sudden proactive, tracking, fighter, yet wants to get drunk and burn down a cabin, because she's feeling some childish anger for Hershel.  But, I've also been complaining for a while that Daryl has become a MarySue.

 

I've been a vocal critic of their problem portraying female characters, in the past.  It's not perfect, but it's greatly improved.  Yes the women have fresh highlights, white teeth, and groomed eyebrows - I don't have a problem with that.  Other than Rick and Daryl, the male characters are freshly groomed as well.  What I do like about the female characters is they actually look like real women.  No huge implants to be found.  The female characters look a lot more like Ripley from Aliens, than Megan Fox in what ever teenage boy franchise she starred in.

 

I think this is an amazing comment and I wish I had written it. It's tiring to get 'you're just jealous' whenever one criticizes Beth. I agree with you that she's a nothing character played by a terrible actress. What's to like?

 

I see Beth and Carol as opposite sides of the same coin, two characters that appear to be untouchable. Any criticism of either and you end up like Joe.

[Watcher0363]

#FOB (Fresh Ovaries Beth). Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?

 

Post coitus Daryl and Beth.....

Daryl: You are the first woman I have had sex with, who was not a prostitute or a teeth rotting meth head piece of white trash.

Beth: The ZA makes for strange bedfellows and I am loving it.

Daryl: So I am just like an McDonald's extra value meal?

Beth:  Who doesn't like a good super sized extra value meal. In fact, I'm in the mood for seconds.

Daryl: Claim, Beth, Claim.

[bosawks]

#FOB (Fresh Ovaries Beth). Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?

Post coitus Daryl and Beth.....

Daryl: You are the first woman I have had sex with, who was not a prostitute or a teeth rotting meth head piece of white trash.

Beth: The ZA makes for strange bedfellows and I am loving it.

Daryl: So I am just like an McDonald's extra value meal?

Beth: Who doesn't like a good super sized extra value meal. In fact, I'm in the mood for seconds.

Daryl: Claim, Beth, Claim.

I think you're giving them to much credit.

Beth: Puppies

Daryl: Um

Beth: Unicorns

Daryl: Ergh

Beth: Rainbows

Daryl: Uh, what....

[RedheadZombie]

I think you're giving them to much credit.

Beth: Puppies

Daryl: Um

Beth: Unicorns

Daryl: Ergh

Beth: Rainbows

Daryl: Uh, what....

 

You left out Judith, kittens, and Jesus.

[ghoulina]

And Tom Waits.