S01.E04: Arkham

[AzureOwl]

I also thought it rang a bit false that the eventual winner of that cat-fight was the one less quick on the uptake. I'd have had her be the one to start removing earrings, high heels etc. and the other one to be more perplexed. She seemed a bit more killer-instinct, a bit more native Gothamite than the other. IMO it would have flowed better that way. I don't know if they wanted her to be so BAMF that they decided that even if she wasn't immediately going for the jugular she'd win in a fight, but I feel like it undercut the character we were being shown. Props to the actress for doing a good amount with just a little screen-time, though.

 

The way I interpreted it, it wasn't because she was slower in the uptake or had less of a killer instinct. It was because they wanted to show that she had a brain and the other didn't. Remember the auditions. Liza was the only one to ask what the job actually entailed and when asked to seduce Fish, she stopped to think for a bit, determined the best course of action, and proceeded.

 

Then in the "final interview" she made sure to clarify what was it that Fish actually wanted instead of making assumptions. I didn't take her reaction as perplexed, more as... "Just to be clear, you want me to kill her right? OK then."

Edited October 14, 2014 by AzureOwl

[Ubiquitous]

When that guy. put that object near his eyeball, willingly...

FACEPALM

Oh man, I was cringing with anticipation! Never, NEVER do that!

Ditto for Oswald's co-conspirators (didn't see him setting up the robbery!).

 

Jim was stupid not to tell Barbara about Oswald, especially when he paid a visit.  Still, Oswald was all kinds of awesome again.

At the very least tell her that "Peter" isn't a coworker and to avoid him if he drops by.

 

Do we know both sides hired the same hitman, or was it Maroni, getting escalating murders up to the point of being able to get to the mayor?

That did not occur to me until you all said it. Yeah, that was pretty clever of Fish to make sure she had a girl who could improvise, followed orders, and wasn't squeamish about killing someone.

[immortalfrieza]

Yeah, the bodyguard was the worst.  Why in the hell would you just take some random guy who shows up in a dark parking lot at his word, and put anything that close to your eye?  Worst bodyguard ever!

Yeah, do the show's writers have to have somebody do something blatantly obviously suicidally stupid EVERY SINGLE episode? I hope not, what I hate in fiction in general most of all is when it lacks the ability to have plots without somebody or frequently many having to be ridiculously stupid just to make work.

 

Runner-up goes to Oswald's crew, because anytime your a criminal, and another criminal offers you food without taking any for himself, usually something bad is going to happen.  Just saying.

It's funny, all the writers would have had to do to make this scene make sense is have Oswald put a cannolo in the box that wasn't poisoned and have Oswald eat it. The writers seem to be going out of their way to make sure that the only way the plot can progress is by having people do really stupid stuff even when it's completely unnecessary.

 

Aside, THIS is the kind of Oswald I like seeing, the cunning and ruthless manipulator like he is in all other adaptions of the character, rather than the petty hair trigger psychopath that kills people for their tuna sandwiches and shoes at the slightest provocation.

 

Also, Gotham apparently has the laziest police force EVER. They're not just corrupt they also don't care to do anything even when they have a legitimate case like this episode. I wonder when Harvey is going to learn to listen to Jim, considering that so far he's hit the nail on the head at the start of I think EVERY case so far as to the motive behind it while Harvey just dismisses things as a mugging or whatever until oops! It turns out Jim is right, again. If I were Jim Gordon I would have gotten the hell out of that city a long time ago and moved to one that wasn't already a hopeless cause that I might actually be able to do some good in. I hope they soon give Gordon a half decent reason for sticking around until he becomes Commissioner besides solving the Wayne murders.

Edited October 14, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[Milz]

 

I was disappointed in "Richard Gladwell" seeming to be really most sincerely dead. Arrow kills off their intriguing, smart villains for the most part and hoped that this gadgeteer would escape for at least one more episode.  I echo everyone else's facepalm at the really stupid bodyguard.

 

 

Yes, he wasn't merely dead. :)

 

I guess the bodyguard and the council man aren't country folk or have even watched an episode of  All Creatures Great and Small, because the gadget looked sort of like a bolt gun, which is used to euthanize horses and livestock.

 

 

ETA: Is it just me, or does Mayor Richard Kind look shadier every week? (Low-income housing and waste disposal in the same 26-block district? Is that really likely? I kind of like the idea that Arkham District -- and the asylum named after it -- are kind of being set up as the soul of Gotham this early in the game, but all the characters are going to have to start getting a whole lot smarter, or I can't hang with the show.)

 

I thought Richard Kind looked shady when he was on Mad About You....doesn't seem to have aged much in 20 years either.

 

Re; low income housing and waste disposal

 

St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington DC is a mental institution in a low income neighborhood and is near the water sewage treatment plant......

[Sandman]

I suppose that the proximity of the waste dump to the Arkham Asylum could be for plot-engineering reasons; I am sure there are some incipient supervillains who are only one exposure to toxic waste and some baroque torture/insane cruelty/monstrous neglect away from their own origin stories...

 

Isn't it possible for Jim to tell Barbara that, given the level of corruption within Gotham PD -- hell, in Gotham generally -- he's keeping secrets to spare her life (not to mention his)? Then again, in Jim's place, I would have identified my "work friend" (later, if necessary) as Oswald Cobblepot. Once a murderously deranged, supposedly dead criminal wannabe-mastermind shows up on your doorstep, I'm pretty sure you've been pre-selected as in the Need To Know category.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sandman

[Chicago Redshirt]

But can somebody with knowledge of US real state practices please explain to me how is Falcone going to make money out of low income housing? Wouldn’t it make more sense to start building luxury condos?

 

A few ways that come to mind:

 

1. Low-income housing has less upfront costs for Falcone: Falcone (presumably) has bought up a decent portion of the land in the Arkham district for cheap through various proxies, shell corporations, etc. If he were to turn it into luxury condos, he would presumably have to finance everything himself. By offering it for low-income housing, he gets to have the government overpay him for the land it is going to use, as well as the actual construction of the housing.

 

2. Low-income housing is more stable long-term: The luxury condos' profitability depends on people being willing to move into a run-down section of Gotham and build it up, and those people may decide to up and leave the neighborhood or Gotham in general, and will have expectations of decent city services and from the property owner/managers. After the initial construction/sale of luxury housing, the benefit of luxury housing is going to mostly go to the owners. By contrast, there's always going to be a bunch of poor folks to fill out low-income housing. And there is always going to be rent from that housing and needs to maintain it.  

 

3. Low-income housing is better if you've already got corruption going on: Because the low-income folks' rent is (presumably) subsidized, Falcone can charge an arm and a leg and get the government to pay the difference, without spending the money on keeping the place up.

 

4. Low-income housing fits better with the rest of the "Roman Empire.": The low-income folks are more likely to be active consumers/victims without recourse of the various criminal markets that Falcone presumably wants to bring to/increase in the Arkham district, including drugs, prostitution, gambling and guns. Whereas the more well-to-do would want these things out of their neighborhood, and might actually get somebody to listen to them.

[Trini]

Also, Gotham apparently has the laziest police force EVER. They're not just corrupt they also don't care to do anything even when they have a legitimate case like this episode. I wonder when Harvey is going to learn to listen to Jim, considering that so far he's hit the nail on the head at the start of I think EVERY case so far as to the motive behind it while Harvey just dismisses things as a mugging or whatever until oops! It turns out Jim is right, again. If I were Jim Gordon I would have gotten the hell out of that city a long time ago and moved to one that wasn't already a hopeless cause that I might actually be able to do some good in. I hope they soon give Gordon a half decent reason for sticking around until he becomes Commissioner besides solving the Wayne murders.

 

I have this same issue with the show, too. Going into this, I thought that they'd be showing how Gotham spiraled downward so far that it would eventually need a masked vigilante to save it. But they're showing that Gotham was already pretty crappy from the start.

 

A few ways that come to mind: ...

Yeah, #1 and #3 were the main things I thought of, of how you make money off (corrupted) low-income housing developments. It's not really from the actual rent from tenants.

[immortalfrieza]

I have this same issue with the show, too. Going into this, I thought that they'd be showing how Gotham spiraled downward so far that it would eventually need a masked vigilante to save it. But they're showing that Gotham was already pretty crappy from the start.

Yeah, that's a big problem. The writers should have treated it like Gotham was a fairly clean city aside from some fledgling mobs around at most with a good police force that was competent and full of good cops at first with the occasional bad egg here and there, and then show the good cops besides Gordon gradually becoming corrupt and being killed off with corrupt and incompetent cops being put in their place over the course of years while the fledgling mobs and criminals becoming hardened big time players that send the city through the crapper as the show goes on instead of what we've got. Not only would this be more interesting but it would also give a good explanation as to why Gordon sticks with the Gotham Police Force instead of getting the hell out of dodge, he'd be fighting to bring the clean city with it's clean police department that he started with back.

[Bandolero]

Barbara can take a seat. She just came clean about her relationship with the female detective and only after being asked. Now she wants no secrets between them... please. She has no leg to stand on IMO not after keeping this from him all this time. If you are with a detective, I would think you would understand that he is not able to share certain aspects of his job with you.  I just don't get her demands/complaints about him working late or wanting details about his work.

 

I so hate when shows always have to make women into these disapproving and complaining caricatures. It is always the same thing... whether it be a doctor, police office, etc., the women always pout/complain about their men's job duties. If you don't want to deal with the difficulties of being with someone whose profession involves late nights, odd hours, being called in, etc. then don't be with him. What's the point of giving him hell for doing his job. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

It's funny, all the writers would have had to do to make this scene make sense is have Oswald put a cannolo in the box that wasn't poisoned and have Oswald eat it. The writers seem to be going out of their way to make sure that the only way the plot can progress is by having people do really stupid stuff even when it's completely unnecessary.

 

We have the advantage of knowing that Oswald is the future Penguin, and also how people in genre TV/comics are going to behave. I would guess that most criminals would be worried about someone who looks like Oswald being a threat to them. 

 

Yeah, that's a big problem. The writers should have treated it like Gotham was a fairly clean city aside from some fledgling mobs around at most with a good police force that was competent and full of good cops at first with the occasional bad egg here and there, and then show the good cops besides Gordon gradually becoming corrupt and being killed off with corrupt and incompetent cops being put in their place over the course of years while the fledgling mobs and criminals becoming hardened big time players that send the city through the crapper as the show goes on instead of what we've got. Not only would this be more interesting but it would also give a good explanation as to why Gordon sticks with the Gotham Police Force instead of getting the hell out of dodge, he'd be fighting to bring the clean city with it's clean police department that he started with back.

 

To each his/her own. I personally prefer the corrupt-to-the-core Gotham to one where the mob was only recently beginning to take hold. IMO it makes for more interesting viewing in terms of what Gordon does for him to basically be a solo act than if 50 percent, or even 20 percent of the department is competent, honorable and dedicated. It also makes Batman's struggle more poignant. Why would he not be able to root out the corruption in Gotham if it just came to be in the 10 years before he took up the cape and cowl?

 

In terms of why Gordon doesn't just GTFO, I think/hope the show will establish it fully. It seems to be partially 1) promise to young Bruce 2) his fiancee 3) his family tie to the city 4) just an innate sense of justice and a never-give-up, never-surrender attitude. I mean, if he's almost getting killed on a weekly basis and constantly having him and/or Bullock having to kill people to stay alive, maybe it's not the job for you.

 

Barbara can take a seat. She just came clean about her relationship with the female detective and only after being asked. Now she wants no secrets between them... please. She has no leg to stand on IMO not after keeping this from him all this time. If you are with a detective, I would think you would understand that he is not able to share certain aspects of his job with you.  I just don't get her demands/complaints about him working late or wanting details about his work.

 

I'll devil's advocate on the side of Barbara for a bit: she's been told by someone she once loved and trusted that Jim has killed one person as part of a mob hit, and framed another person who his partner killed. 

 

These are completely outlandish sounding claims. But when they are brought up, Jim doesn't say, "Oswald Cobblepot is a low-level mobster who I was told to kill or I would be killed, and I dodged that by pretending to kill him. That guy who identified himself as Peter? That's Oswald Cobblepot. I don't want to draw you any more into this because a) it'll put you in danger b) if the wrong people find out I didn't actually kill Oswald Cobblepot, I'll get killed and c) remember that one time when I told you something in confidence and you blabbed it to the newspapers? Yeah, that. By the way, being a cop in Gotham means that I'm surrounded by people who are lazy, unethical, downright criminal or sometimes all of the above and I'm putting my life on the line and my good-guy principles are being put to the test. So are you going to be ride-or-die, or what?" 

 

He acts shady as anything. 

 

What is Barbara supposed to think?

 

Also, withholding the truth of a year-long lesbian relationship (and drug use, and presumably other things) is less than withholding the truth about "Did you kill someone on orders of the city's biggest gangster?"

[Kromm]

Gotham Employment Tip #21:  Do NOT work for Oswald Copplepot.  It won't turn out well for you in the end.

[Kromm]

I have this same issue with the show, too. Going into this, I thought that they'd be showing how Gotham spiraled downward so far that it would eventually need a masked vigilante to save it. But they're showing that Gotham was already pretty crappy from the start.

Actually I'm fine with this point of origin.  This is hardly Day 1 of Gotham, so it's only Gordon's start.  And Jim entering the picture when it's slightly too late makes him into an interesting mix of Don Quixote and Sisyphus.

 

Besides, it can't be a straight line downward.  Logically it will ebb and flow a bit.  For example, we've yet

to meet Harvey Dent, and a big part of Harvey Dent's story is that he's successful at  bringing some Law and Order back to Gotham.  Now in the comics Dent doesn't come around until right before Batman, but we know from various sources that Dent is in Gotham, and that he's an adult. Also, Gordon himself eventually being promoted means there has to be some ebb and flow even before Batman.  Although Gordon doesn't necessarily have to be Commissioner when Batman starts--I believe this varies in the comics as much as many other things.  Gordon's first appearance in the comics, in Detective Comics #27 (the very first Batman comic)  in fact, was with him only being a Detective.  But anyway, even with many ways to go with Gordon's career, there HAS to be some victories along the way, or none of this works.

[shelley1234]

Anyone else think the level of information Gordon fed to Bruce was just too much? Aside from being a civilian, he's a kid.

 

Yeah, it is way too much honesty and info for a kid, but of course it feeds the plot, so I am willing to let it all go.  I also think that Gordon sees that Bruce is a pretty grown up, kinda awkward, kinda weird kid.  He keeps trying to tell him things about the investigation because he also feels a sense of honor and duty to Bruce to fulfill his word and clean up the city/find his parents killer. 

 

I would have a problem with Barbara demanding to know Gordan's secrets if he didn't turn around and tell Bruce important information constantly. 

 

I don't.  Gordon is a cop and he can't just tell her everything.  Gordon also told her things in the first episode and if I remember correctly, her smart mouth immediately called and got the media in on it.  So I wouldn't be too hot on telling her something like "I know you think I killed Copperpot, but I didn't....however the system is so corrupt that I had to make everyone think I did.  And yeah, that creepy guy who came to the house, that was him."  Sure, he's gonna tell her that.  

 

Oswald doesn't want to leave behind anybody who can say anything. Wrapped up his little plan with a neat little bow on that box of cannoli. 

 

 

He doesn't, especially since he set it up not to get the money, but to give himself status and power within the organization.  He needs to tie those ends up so that his plan doesn't come back around and bite him in the butt.  

[HalcyonDays]

Man, this episode. Right in the beginning when Gladwell is "showing" his invention to the idiot politican and he's like "hold it up to you eye.." you know no good could come from that (stupid person). I yelled out loud, even though I knew what was coming.

 

I find Barbara annoying, for demanding that Jim tell her everything. I get you want trust, but I guarentee you FBI agents and Secret Service agents are not telling their spouses everything about their jobs. It's called Classified Information and is a job requirement. Learn that some jobs require sacrifice. I will say that Jim should have said that he was protecting her, but whatever. She was being stupidly whiny.

 

Oswald is evil, calculating and just having a ball playing the city. Well done. He's a good villian. However, just like in the pilot, at one point he's not going to be able to get out of his situation. Someone is going to pop a cap in his ass and his sniveling and conniving is not going to save him. I knew when he popped out of the freezer claiming he was only able to save one bag of cash, that he had it all. Poison cannoli's though? Sheesh.

 

I get what Fish was doing, but really writers - two young girls in tight clothes and trashy fishnet stockings, tumbling over on sky high heels, hair pulling and having a "girl" fight. Trying a sad attempt to raise ratings? I would have preferred one of the girls to just roll her eyes, say screw it and walk away. Cheesy common trope and disappointing.

 

I missed Selena Kyle in this episode. At least she is written decently.

[Danielg342]

Cobblepot! Man, Robin Lord Taylor is killing it...that dithering, shaky guy who looks like he'll come apart at the seams is smarter than he actually looks. It's brilliant, and Taylor makes it so real. I think he's quickly becoming my favourite character.

 

I also thought that Hakeem Kae-Kazim was excellent as "Richard Gladwell"...even though I knew what was coming Kae-Kazim still sold the character the way it's supposed to be- unassuming until it's too late.

 

Having said that...the eye-thing...a little too grotesque for me...

 

Didn't like how Donal Logue had virtually nothing to do...Harvey Bullock lights up the screen whenever he's on it, and the lack of Bullock, especially with that big broode Jim Gordon stealing much of the show, was noticeable.

 

Makenzie Leigh as Liza...I liked how she made several "WTF" looks and seemed to wonder just what it was she was signing up for...then to realize that, "hey a job's a job and I gotta do what I gotta do." There's your "team player".

 

Gordon...well, I like Ben McKenzie, and I think Gordon's a pretty good character...but I think tonight he was brooding way too much. I get that the character is supposed to be serious, tough and angsty, but I think tonight highlighted that the character needs to be paired with someone who will inject some levity into the situation- like Oswald Cobblepot or Gordon or even Fish- because too much brooding really dragged down the episode, I feel. It also doesn't help that I just don't feel a thing between Gordon and Barbara Kean...I mean, Gordon keeps looking at her like she's a piece of trash yet she's his fiance? Hate to be shallow, but if I was going home to Erin Richards every night I'd have a wide smile on my face. Just saying.

 

Oh, and I'm pretty much done with David Mazouz's over-emotive "Bat-Tween". I get it...the kid's depressed and he misses his parents. Enough already. He needs more scenes like last week where he fenced with Alfred (perhaps in a less dangerous part of the Manor) because it's getting tiring to see him down all the time. We need some growth here...I'm not saying that Bruce Wayne should forget about avenging his parents, but he should not let it "consume" him. Furthermore, the character needs to do more than just brood, especially if I'm going to see him every week.

 

Overall...this was a pretty poor effort. Too angsty, too much melodrama, too much posturing, too little levity...come on now, I want to have some fun!

[Kromm]

This show ain't doing the wonders that The Flash is doing (basically that show is near effortless brilliance--at least so far), but overall I'm still pretty impressed.  There are bumps, sure, and a ton of shoehorning being done, but the canvas is so big and overall so well realized I can forgive a lot.  I can forgive Jada Smith's overacting, for example, because it at least fits with the over-the-topness every criminal in Gotham will eventually succumb to.  I can forgive Barbara Kean being annoying, because it's not really all that much at odds with what little we know about her from other adaptations.  I can forgive Oswald's almost superhuman ability to murder almost anyone and have it not bite him in the ass--because he's a fun well realized psycho, not just a prop villain.  And more.  

 

So far I'm actually reasonably happy.

[Jlina]

I think this episode did a fine job of explaining why Gordon can't tell the fiance anything; he's actually really scared for his own life now and she, inevitably, would tell major crimes, or call the newspaper for a front page story. For all her angsting, she totally brought this on herself by acting really, really stupidly when he did confide in her.  I hope she just goes away and doesn't get killed to further "motivate" Jim Gordon!

[Camera One]

I don't tend to enjoy series with such gratuitous violence, and I tend to quit shows when it gets to these levels, but I find this show is pretty well done in all other ways.  They've woven an interesting web, and I like the twist of a cop working in a town which is so ridiculously corrupt.  I also like those asides with Alfred and Bruce.  It didn't move the plot, but it showed both his parents were involved in trying to improve the city.  Does that mean Bruce's father was in with Falcone?   I guess he would also have needed to "work within the system" but I'm curious how he managed to maintain his integrity.  

 

I don't think that guy with the councilman in the parking lot was his bodyguard.  They said he was his aide.  So he would schedule the councilman's appointments and such.  Not too bright, but not deserving of having his eye poked out.  I also don't think it was necessary or enjoyable to watch people burned alive.  At least last week, those men who went up in the balloons were very immoral.  The victims this week were corrupt but not deserving of dying in gruesome ways.

 

I don't like that Jim is "working" with Oswald.  I guess he doesn't really have much choice.  I just can't believe that Oswald has not been recognized yet.  After this promotion, there's no way Falcone and Fish with their multitudes of henchmen won't pass along the "new" man in town.  They can't drag this out for long... Oswald isn't even wearing a disguise or staying behind the scenes.

 

I still don't care much for the Barbara stuff.  It doesn't work if we don't know her and she has no life aside from Jim or Renee that we can see.  They need to make the viewers care or be more invested if they want to include scenes with her.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Camera One

[rho]

I suppose that the proximity of the waste dump to the Arkham Asylum could be for plot-engineering reasons; I am sure there are some incipient supervillains who are only one exposure to toxic waste and some baroque torture/insane cruelty/monstrous neglect away from their own origin stories...

 

I thought that was prevalent in the comics and other adaptations. Didn't one of the Nolan films have a plot line involving toxins in the sewers affecting Arkham? I could definitely be wrong about that but I do know that Gotham is home to an extraordinary amount of vats of acid. Probably half of the Rogues Gallery originated from a headfirst dive into a vat of acid. I, for one, am looking forward to incorporating Arkham into the story and maybe stepping outside the procedural cop element of the story.

[Chicago Redshirt]

When it gets to the point that criminals are trying to kill you on a regular basis, ringing your girlfriend's front door, it seems to me awfully selfish and foolish to not give Barbara at least some sort of head's up as to what the situation is.

 

I would have to think that any reasonable person would take Penguin showing up unannounced at the girlfriend's door as a not-so-veiled threat that "I can get to you or her when I want to." And even if you take it at face value of him just being weird, wanting to help and not realizing what an invasion of personal space that is, one would have to figure that it means at a minimum that someone who does mean Jim harm could strike at Barbara.

 

I could see if Gordon was doing allowing the breakup in some effort to keep Barbara safe, but it didn't seem to play out that way to me.

 

Part of the issue is that Barbara has no independent personality or agency so far. All she does is be a love object for Jim and Montoya and worry about Jim.

 

I will credit the writers for going this long without kidnapping her or otherwise damseling her, though that is almost certainly inevitable.

[Sandman]

The writers are too busy turning Jim into a damsel requiring rescue to worry about Barbara.

 

And, yeah -- comics and their adaptations feature vats of acid with a frequency not attributable to probability. And also bolts of lightning. Just sayin'.

[blackwing]

I for one was happy that there was a minimal appearance of Montoya.  I find her irritating.  It seems her sole purpose is to take Jim down.  I find Barbara irritating too.  Although I fully get why Jim hasn't told her anything, he could just tell her that the police force is corrupt and he isn't keeping any secrets from her, he's just trying to survive.

 

I am still disliking the kid that plays Bruce Wayne.  My residual irritation of him from "Touch" apparently still burns.

[Kromm]

I for one was happy that there was a minimal appearance of Montoya.  I find her irritating.  It seems her sole purpose is to take Jim down.  I find Barbara irritating too.  Although I fully get why Jim hasn't told her anything, he could just tell her that the police force is corrupt and he isn't keeping any secrets from her, he's just trying to survive.

 

I am still disliking the kid that plays Bruce Wayne.  My residual irritation of him from "Touch" apparently still burns.

The shame of it is that Montoya in the comics (and animated) is a pretty awesome character.  

 

I realize they thought (maybe with some justification) that Gordon needed an antagonist, but they've done Montoya a bit of a disservice with how they've done it.  It could be argued she's trying to look after Barbara, but it DOES come off personal that she's focusing on the brand new cop with so little access or ability to really be that deep in, and comparatively blowing off Harvey Bullock's contribution (regardless of their hostile encounter early on--she's really moved on from him).  I mean if she really seriously was trying to use Gordon to get to Bullock, then we would/should have seen her at some point trying to approach Gordon to get him to flip on Bullock.  And we never really did, other than a vague early public warning to disassociate himself from Bullock--which even an apparent idiot like this version of Montoya is should know isn't Gordon's choice, but rather his Captain's.

[TresGatos]

I am amused that in Gotham universe, typewriters, CRT monitors and cellphones are in regular usage at the same time.

 

I really enjoy how out-of-time Gotham feels with boxy cars that look like they are from the 1970s and all the glorious interiors that looked from the 1920s. The set designers were awesome tonight.

 

Gordon really needs to stop consulting the grieving pre-teen about police matters. It is weird. Gordon doesn't know that Bruce is going to be Batman, why is he constantly seeking this child's counsel.

 

Episodes of the 1960s series Batman have been airing in a couple of places recently and picturing Ben McKenzie, who reminds me of a young Lt. Kenda, as Commissioner Gordon (Neil Hamilton) which has really helped me buy into the story on both ends now. I also adored the Penguin when he gave his name as Peter Humboldt and in the telephone scene where he looked uncannily like a penguin in profile. Very well done. Less well done was the girl kiss and the girl fight. Like someone else noted, totally exploitative and not needed. Still, I am really enjoying this show.

[Nanrad]

Glad Barbara pushed some on the murder accusation, but she didn't explain why she was concerned. Jim, rightfully, doesn't want to bring her into a very complicated mess. Unfortunately, they both have points, but I may side with Barb on knowing what's up with Cobblepot. Harvey spelled it out pretty plainly, so keeping Barbara ignorant of the danger she is still in is paternalistic bs and naïve hope. On the other hand, I am glad Barbara stood her ground on getting truth from Jim. Unfortunately, she got him in hat water at work, so Jim has reason to not completely trust her.  Is...is that characterization I see? *g*  ( As long as Jim actually levels about Oswald/Peter, I'll be okay. Keeping hard truths hardly ever work out, so tell her Jim! Don't be an asshat about that.)

 

I have to disagree because either way, she's in danger. And she may even be in more danger by knowing. Jim barely escaped with his life and stuck to his morals and had to keep the secret to stay alive. He's trying to keep the secret contained, but Oswald re-appearance in Gotham ruins that. It may seem like more reason to tell her, but again, I don't agree. Telling her means talking about all of the things wrong with Gotham and the police force. She never had a problem with how Jim kept certain parts of his work life private until her ex girlfriend said something, then she followed by saying how she knows him and that Jim wouldn't lie. A few days later, she just has to know if he killed the guy or not. I think Jim was right to be tight-lipped, especially with what she pulled with the kidnapping and giving the anonymous tip.

 

<<Am I the only one who enjoyed this episode tonight?>>

 

Nope.  I liked it.  I think I'm the only one who is liking the series as a whole.  I like the look and feel of it and I find the villains interesting.  The Penguin is deliciously demented and works for me.  And you know who else works for me?  Fish.  I think I GET the character that Jada is portraying.   That's also why her audition last night made sense to me.  "Do you like boys or girls?"  "Pretend I'm a boy."  There was no sex in this, she wants a woman who knows how to truly manipulate a man and being able to do so means separating yourself from desire in favor of your agenda.  It's all acting.  And that is what Fish is all about - acting.  Artifice.  From her wig, to her long fake nails, to her affectation.  That's not the real person. That affected speech is just a put on - underneath it she is just a thug: mean and ghetto and conniving.  It's like she acts like what SHE thinks a lady should act like so that she can keep her eye on the men.  The person underneath is far more threatening.  Also I've decided that a little bit "cartoonish" is apropos for source material that will feature villains dressed up in costumes and such.

I see your point, but I think Jada is overacting a bit. And as you said, the audition made sense because she's not looking for just a singer, she's looking for someone who'll do whatever it takes. A person like that has to know when to focus on the job and put their feelings aside--like this weeks' villain (he voted for the councilman).

 

He wouldn't, necessarily. But as someone said upthread, that was more for Molly the Moll than Falcone. If she's going to seduce and kill an old guy she barely knows, she needs to be comfortable with getting out of her comfort zone. That's why it was important that she wasn't naturally into "girls," because kissing another woman would be foreign to her.

 

I also thought it rang a bit false that the eventual winner of that cat-fight was the one less quick on the uptake. I'd have had her be the one to start removing earrings, high heels etc. and the other one to be more perplexed. She seemed a bit more killer-instinct, a bit more native Gothamite than the other. IMO it would have flowed better that way. I don't know if they wanted her to be so BAMF that they decided that even if she wasn't immediately going for the jugular she'd win in a fight, but I feel like it undercut the character we were being shown. Props to the actress for doing a good amount with just a little screen-time, though.

As another poster said, I think it would be her because she seems to ask for clarity before diving into anything and when she does it, she's very good at it. She asked what the job was and was told to do something and did it well in the lounge, and then when she was told to fight. She wants to understand the world she's going into and the boundaries or, lack thereof, that comes with it.

I'll devil's advocate on the side of Barbara for a bit: she's been told by someone she once loved and trusted that Jim has killed one person as part of a mob hit, and framed another person who his partner killed. 

 

These are completely outlandish sounding claims. But when they are brought up, Jim doesn't say, "Oswald Cobblepot is a low-level mobster who I was told to kill or I would be killed, and I dodged that by pretending to kill him. That guy who identified himself as Peter? That's Oswald Cobblepot. I don't want to draw you any more into this because a) it'll put you in danger b) if the wrong people find out I didn't actually kill Oswald Cobblepot, I'll get killed and c) remember that one time when I told you something in confidence and you blabbed it to the newspapers? Yeah, that. By the way, being a cop in Gotham means that I'm surrounded by people who are lazy, unethical, downright criminal or sometimes all of the above and I'm putting my life on the line and my good-guy principles are being put to the test. So are you going to be ride-or-die, or what?" 

 

He acts shady as anything. 

 

What is Barbara supposed to think?

 

Also, withholding the truth of a year-long lesbian relationship (and drug use, and presumably other things) is less than withholding the truth about "Did you kill someone on orders of the city's biggest gangster?"

I don't think Jim is necessarily acting shady, but conflicted and also confused. Barbra didn't start making accusations until her ex girlfriend began whispering in her ear, which poses the question: why are they even talking? We know nothing is going on, but those two were together for a year, she comes around accusing Jim of things he didn't do, and then Barbra begins asking him whether or not he did those things. Jim's may be worse because he won't flat out answer, but I can understand why he's upset with her, especially because she's demanding honesty/truth when she withheld that relationship from him and her ex and running off at the mouth to her. 

 

Jim could be open, but that's not how he handles situations and he still doesn't know what to make of it himself. It seems as if Jim really tries to separate home life from work life even though he may mention a word or two about work. I can't blame him--he has to deal with a lot of shit at work and just wants to relax at home.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Nanrad

[Sandman]

Gotham Employment Tip #21:  Do NOT work for Oswald Copplepot.  It won't turn out well for you in the end.

 

As opposed to all the other employment opportunities in the greater Gotham area, which always turn out swell? Gotham Employment Tip #1 might be: Look elsewhere. (See also entry under Metropolis)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Sandman

[Chicago Redshirt]

The thing is that Barbara isn't just his girlfriend. She's his fiancee. He wanted her to be his partner for life. 

 

Then he starts getting involved in stuff that could result in his life. Stuff that's way beyond the "officer can hypothetically get shot in the line of duty" that she walked into knowingly. We're talking about stuff that is apparently having him dance to the tune of Gotham's crime boss, to a certain extent. Stuff that could result in him being arrested and put in prison. Stuff that has had his life in serious jeopardy on at least three to four occasions (Mario Pepper, Gladwell, Fish, probably others not coming to mind. And stuff that is also putting her life at risk. 

 

I wish that the writing of the show made Barbara someone he could confide in about this, a co-conscience that helps him navigate the right path. Or even someone who was pragmatic and like, "If we're going to raise a family, we're might want to avoid pissing off the mob and take a little bribe money" or whatever. 

 

Having yet another love interest upset about secret and lies and basically kept out of the main plot is not something that sits well with me after "Smallville" and the rest of the series. And it speaks poorly of Gordon and their relationship that he has kept her in the dark about the fact that her life and his life are in danger, as is his sense of right and wrong.

[Sandman]

But, other than the fact that it runs counter to the rules of the genre, I don't know why Gordon and Barbara couldn't have the conversation you describe in your earlier post, Chicago Redshirt. It runs counter to the genre, of course, because it would stop the current "Barbara on the outside" plot cold, and that never happens, but still. Is it too much to hope for, just this once?

[Danielg342]

Barbara Kean irks me because the character is useless. I get that the show wants me to think she's a sweet, sensitive girl who's tough on the inside, but Kean does nothing more than brood over what Jim Gordon isn't telling her while making sultry poses that strongly suggests she wishes nothing more than for Jimmy to protect her. We don't see her outside of her apartment, where she could, presumably, try to figure out these things on her own and actually show us that her disbelief is real. Instead, they keep her in the apartment, make her wear Gordon's clothes and tell Erin Richards to do nothing but make sad but cooing looks to drive home the point that the character does nothing without Gordon.

 

"Darnit Jim, can't you see I'm a Damsel in Distress? Why can't you SAVE me?"

 

It's why I rolled my eyes at the scene at the police station, because I can already tell where the story is going. The show wants me to think she went there to show Gordon that she's no pushover, but given that the show has established that she has no agency without Jim, the strength rings hollow. Everything about her real life inner fortitude involves Jimmy, so the only way this story gets resolved is with Kean in extreme peril, because it'll serve to "teach Kean a lesson" about what happens when you stray from your protector. Gosh, the inherent underlying misogyny in all that is enough to make you sick.

 

I might not have such a problem with the storyline if Kean actually went out and did things, even if she's in way over her head. At least that way we get a sense that she's more than just Gordon's arm candy. I'll grant that things are early and many things can still change, but the early returns are not so good.

[Camera One]

I wish that the writing of the show made Barbara someone he could confide in about this, a co-conscience that helps him navigate the right path. Or even someone who was pragmatic and like, "If we're going to raise a family, we're might want to avoid pissing off the mob and take a little bribe money" or whatever.

 

That would be good, though the previous episode, they had Barbara impulsively call the newspaper to tell them what Jim told her in confidence, without any actual discussion.  That probably contributed to Jim keeping quiet.  I also wish there was more of an equal relationship here, where Barbara could be an asset in the fight against corruption, but that's not what they are showing.  They have her lounging around getting high during the day fielding secret visits from Latoya that she only revealed in this episode.  Maybe Jim is also afraid that Barbara might accidentally tell Latoya if he revealed the truth.  They're sort of diminishing Jim's intelligence a little as well by having him proclaim to multiple people what Oswald said about a war coming.  With no inkling that Oswald helped escalate that said-war by hitting the restaurant and stealing Maroni's money and pinning it on Falcone.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Camera One

[jagfan05]

Can someone explain to me this part about the show with the ending? I'm confused...

 

1.) So that assassin did just work for both Falcone and Marone? He took orders from both of them to continually kill the other guy's councilman? Seems weird?

 

2.) Why is Bruce upset when Arkham Asylum is still going to be opened/refurnished just like his parents wanted? I know they wanted to tear it down and still build a new mental health facility but wasn't that what the old Arkham Asylum was, a mental health facility?

 

3.) Why originally was Maroney's plan to tear down the Arkham Asylum completely but now it's part of his contract to refurbish the Asylum? Wouldn't the refurbishing and reopening of the Asylum be part of Falcone's contract since he wanted it reopened and not Maroney?

Edited October 16, 2014 by jagfan05

[Camera One]

Why is Bruce upset when Arkham Asylum is still going to be opened/refurnished just like his parents wanted? I know they wanted to tear it down and still build a new mental health facility but wasn't that what the old Arkham Asylum was, a mental health facility?

 

I was thinking maybe he was disappointed that it won't be a new state-of-the-art facility, and will be "refurbished" aka dusted up with minimal improvements to the presumably uneffective old Arkham Asylum which was abandoned?

 

I didn't understand why Maroni got the contract to refurbish either.  The "compromise" seemed to more heavily lean towards Maroni.  AzureOwl already asked above, but how was Falcone supposed to gain money out of building low-cost housing?

[Trini]

Can someone explain to me this part about the show with the ending? I'm confused...

 

1.) So that assassin did just work for both Falcone and Marone? He took orders from both of them to continually kill the other guy's councilman? Seems weird?

It seems so. The show itself didn't provide another explanation.

 

 

2.) Why is Bruce upset when Arkham Asylum is still going to be opened/refurnished just like his parents wanted? I know they wanted to tear it down and still build a new mental health facility but wasn't that what the old Arkham Asylum was, a mental health facility?

Well, besides the fact that mob bosses were going to profit off of it, his parents wanted a new, modern facility to "bring hope" to the city (and tear down the old symbol of failure).

 

 

3.) Why originally was Maroney's plan to tear down the Arkham Asylum completely but now it's part of his contract to refurbish the Asylum? Wouldn't the refurbishing and reopening of the Asylum be part of Falcone's contract since he wanted it reopened and not Maroney?

Can't help with this one....

[Actionmage]

then Barbra begins asking him whether or not he did those things.

 

Reply in Barbara's thread.

[RealityGal]

I suppose that the proximity of the waste dump to the Arkham Asylum could be for plot-engineering reasons; I am sure there are some incipient supervillains who are only one exposure to toxic waste and some baroque torture/insane cruelty/monstrous neglect away from their own origin stories...

 

Isn't it possible for Jim to tell Barbara that, given the level of corruption within Gotham PD -- hell, in Gotham generally -- he's keeping secrets to spare her life (not to mention his)? Then again, in Jim's place, I would have identified my "work friend" (later, if necessary) as Oswald Cobblepot. Once a murderously deranged, supposedly dead criminal wannabe-mastermind shows up on your doorstep, I'm pretty sure you've been pre-selected as in the Need To Know category.

 

Oh...very interesting...poison ivy, two face, whoever arnold Schwarzenegger played all could be victims.

 

As for Barbara, she doesn't seem like the sort that will just accept that he is keeping secrets to protect her, so I sort of get it, especially in light of how quick she was to call the press when he did share even a little with her.  

 

 

.  Not too bright, but not deserving of having his eye poked out. 

 

I don't like that Jim is "working" with Oswald.  I guess he doesn't really have much choice.  I just can't believe that Oswald has not been recognized yet.  After this promotion, there's no way Falcone and Fish with their multitudes of henchmen won't pass along the "new" man in town.  They can't drag this out for long... Oswald isn't even wearing a disguise or staying behind the scenes.

I don't even look in a kaleidoscope without the vague subconscious fear that I shouldn't be putting my eye right there.  But now you add a man in the dark telling me to look into something "he just invented" while I'm walking to my car....awwww hell no!

 

I also wouldn't have died if I were in Cobblepot's crew because I don't like cannoli.

 

I'm really interested in seeing what finally drives Cobblepot fully underground.

 

I also thought it rang a bit false that the eventual winner of that cat-fight was the one less quick on the uptake. I'd have had her be the one to start removing earrings, high heels etc. and the other one to be more perplexed. She seemed a bit more killer-instinct, a bit more native Gothamite than the other. IMO it would have flowed better that way. I don't know if they wanted her to be so BAMF that they decided that even if she wasn't immediately going for the jugular she'd win in a fight, but I feel like it undercut the character we were being shown. Props to the actress for doing a good amount with just a little screen-time, though.

I actually liked it because it wasn't so obvious, and she may have acted slow to put the other woman off.  The other chick was taking off her earrings and shoes like she was really gonna wipe the floor with her, the winner may have been playing into that arrogance.  I probably would have been rolling my eyes if they had taken the obvious route of having the girl who appeared ready to go win...it would have been too obvious.  And it showed me, if nothing else that this girl has the primal instinct, she didn't have to prepare, she didn't have to take off her shoes or her earrings, by sheer will alone she was going to win that fight.

 

3.) Why originally was Maroney's plan to tear down the Arkham Asylum completely but now it's part of his contract to refurbish the Asylum? Wouldn't the refurbishing and reopening of the Asylum be part of Falcone's contract since he wanted it reopened and not Maroney?

 

Maroney's plan was to have the dump site.  Falcone's plan was in line with the Wayne's to build a new asylum.  Now Falcone will refurbish the asylum and Maroney will get the waste dump.  

 

At least thats how I understood it.  That way the mayor could appease both sides and keep himself safe.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Can someone explain to me this part about the show with the ending? I'm confused...

 

1.) So that assassin did just work for both Falcone and Marone? He took orders from both of them to continually kill the other guy's councilman? Seems weird?

 

2.) Why is Bruce upset when Arkham Asylum is still going to be opened/refurnished just like his parents wanted? I know they wanted to tear it down and still build a new mental health facility but wasn't that what the old Arkham Asylum was, a mental health facility?

 

3.) Why originally was Maroney's plan to tear down the Arkham Asylum completely but now it's part of his contract to refurbish the Asylum? Wouldn't the refurbishing and reopening of the Asylum be part of Falcone's contract since he wanted it reopened and not Maroney?

"Gladwell" apparently is one of the better hitmen in town, so I guess it shouldn't be surprising that both sides want to hire him.

 

Bruce is suspecting that his parents' murder was connected to the two mob bosses competing plans for Arkham. Moreover, as another poster said, his parents' plan was to actually renovate the district and to give people in Gotham hope and change, to coin a phrase. Falcone and Maroni have at a minimum perverted that plan to line their own pockets.

 

Maroni wanted to cut Falcone out of the profit to be gained from Arkham by turning it into a waste disposal site. Falcone wanted to have it be low-income housing, with no room for Maroni to get a piece. The mayor, deciding he didn't want any more hitmen sent after him presumably, compromised and gave both Maroni and Falcone a piece. So there are presumably going to be separate contracts for Maroni's people and Falcone's people. Since Falcone has been top dog for so long, this established that he is actually showing the weakness that Fish and others have perceived.

[Milz]

Barbara can take a seat. She just came clean about her relationship with the female detective and only after being asked. Now she wants no secrets between them... please. She has no leg to stand on IMO not after keeping this from him all this time. If you are with a detective, I would think you would understand that he is not able to share certain aspects of his job with you.  I just don't get her demands/complaints about him working late or wanting details about his work.

 

I so hate when shows always have to make women into these disapproving and complaining caricatures. It is always the same thing... whether it be a doctor, police office, etc., the women always pout/complain about their men's job duties. If you don't want to deal with the difficulties of being with someone whose profession involves late nights, odd hours, being called in, etc. then don't be with him. What's the point of giving him hell for doing his job. 

 

I was going to write in the premiere's thread that Barbara reminds me of Grace Kelly's annoying character in High Noon. But I wanted to give the character a chance (first impressions, you know...)  Now after watching High Noon over the weekend and watching this latest episode, my initial impression is correct: Barbara is an annoying, whiny (not yet, but she will be) girlfriend who absolutely cannot understand why Jim can't tell her all the confidential police stuff he's working on, cannot understand why Jim can't go shoe shopping with her because he has to investigate a murder, cannot understand why Jim puts his J.O.B ahead of her, her, HER!, blah blah blah.

 

I hope they get married, get pregnant with the future Batgirl, and have Barbara die by the end of next season.

[jagfan05]

Oh...very interesting...poison ivy, two face, whoever arnold Schwarzenegger played all could be victims.

 

As for Barbara, she doesn't seem like the sort that will just accept that he is keeping secrets to protect her, so I sort of get it, especially in light of how quick she was to call the press when he did share even a little with her.  

 

I don't even look in a kaleidoscope without the vague subconscious fear that I shouldn't be putting my eye right there.  But now you add a man in the dark telling me to look into something "he just invented" while I'm walking to my car....awwww hell no!

 

I also wouldn't have died if I were in Cobblepot's crew because I don't like cannoli.

 

I'm really interested in seeing what finally drives Cobblepot fully underground.

I actually liked it because it wasn't so obvious, and she may have acted slow to put the other woman off.  The other chick was taking off her earrings and shoes like she was really gonna wipe the floor with her, the winner may have been playing into that arrogance.  I probably would have been rolling my eyes if they had taken the obvious route of having the girl who appeared ready to go win...it would have been too obvious.  And it showed me, if nothing else that this girl has the primal instinct, she didn't have to prepare, she didn't have to take off her shoes or her earrings, by sheer will alone she was going to win that fight.

 

Maroney's plan was to have the dump site.  Falcone's plan was in line with the Wayne's to build a new asylum.  Now Falcone will refurbish the asylum and Maroney will get the waste dump.  

 

At least thats how I understood it.  That way the mayor could appease both sides and keep himself safe.

Falcone is not the one refurbishing the asylum...they said that is going to Maroney along with the waste dump. So that goes back to this 3rd question?

Why originally was Maroney's plan to tear down the Arkham Asylum completely but now it's part of his contract to refurbish the Asylum? Wouldn't the refurbishing and reopening of the Asylum be part of Falcone's contract since he wanted it reopened and not Maroney?

[Chicago Redshirt]

Either Falcone and Maroni worked up the division of profits themselves to keep the peace and that's what they came to, or the mayor divvied things up that way because he knew it was Maroni who came after him and he thought that throwing him an extra bone was good for his health. (I don't remember the show explicitly saying who was going to get what part of things afterwards, though, and this is all speculation on my part.)

[Oscirus]

Was that the councilman's bodyguard or his aide? I could've sworn that they called him an aide. That was a pretty cool opening scene but did that guy really have to be that stupid.  The assassin was fun and it was a nice job giving him a cool weapon to distinguish him from everybody else. I doubt that Maroney or Falcone hired him.  It seems like he was working for one person.  My theory is that it was Oswald. He  has a desire to create chaos in order to raise in the criminal ranks. He also seemed  to know about that guy's last hit ( I refuse to believe that Maroney is randomly ordering hits in front of a guy that he barely knows),  It's not hard to imagine that he set up the hit-man to get killed by Gordon. However, the problem with this theory is that at the time, he didn't have the money to hire a hit-man and I doubt that he'd be able to hire one with just a promise. Interesting conundrum.  An argument could also be made for Fish, but she seemed a bit busy this week.  

 

The Barbara-Jim stuff does nothing for me. If I had to choose I'd probably side with Jim because it's none of Barbara's business.  I guess that cute thing that you did with the anonymous call to the press didn't quite turn out like you expected, eh Babs?  I get what they're going for with Bruce--Jim. He's desperately trying to prove his worthiness to this kid whose parent's were killed.  I'm just not a fan of the execution.

 

The series is just so damn gloomy. I get that's the tone that the show is going for but can we get some form of happiness?

[Sandman]

You might have to watch The Flash for that.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Captain Essen called the other guy the Councilman's aide. But that could be a euphemism/synonym for bodyguard in his case.

 

I think it's clear that Maroni hired Gladwell to kill the mayor at the end. We see him talking to one of his lieutenants, Carbone, about wanting to hit Falcone back for the hit Penguin caused at his place of business. Maroni says he wants to hit Falcone "where it hurts" and wanting to hit "the Mouth." A few scenes later, we have Gladwell going to hit the Mayor.  This fits Maroni's desire to hit the mouth, since the mayor is basically a mouthpiece for Falcone.

 

Whether Maroni was behind the first hit and Falcone was behind the second is more of a long shot.

 

I don't think Penguin could have hired Gladwell because until after the restaurant robbery/hit, he didn't have any money to speak of. Assuming that Gladwell wasn't hired by both the Falcone and Maroni mob, the only reasonable culprit is Fish since she has the means (plenty of cash), motive (she wants to be on top of the criminal world, and by trying to get Falcone and Maroni fighting, she gets both of them to weaken their forces so she can take out whoever the survivor), and opportunity (she knows of Gladwell and had plenty of potential chances to contact him and get a contract for him.) It probably doesn't make sense that she would give the lead that got the cops on Gladwell's trail, though Maybe it's for plausible deniability. 

[Oscirus]

The biggest problem with the theory that Maroni set up the last hit is that Gordon found the list with the Mayor's detail before Maroni said that. Unless the hitman was a psychic, the hits were set up by somebody other then Falcone or Maroni.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Checking my DVR recording, Maroni is having the rant about wanting to hit Falcone where it hurts with Frankie at about 34 minutes into the episode. Oswald overhears, then gets brought to Maroni and promoted. About 44 minutes into the episode, Oswald calls Gordon and tells him that there's going to be a hit that Maroni has ordered of someone supporting Falcone's plan -- though he can't be certain of who the target is --and that is going down tonight. That prompts Gordon to ask about the police assigned to the protective details and to determine it's the mayor who's the target.

[Ubiquitous]

It's funny, all the writers would have had to do to make this scene make sense is have Oswald put a cannolo in the box that wasn't poisoned and have Oswald eat it.

Even better, Oswald is finishing off his cannolo as he enters the room, thus ensuring the correct cannoli are allocated.

 

But can somebody with knowledge of US real state practices please explain to me how is Falcone going to make money out of low income housing? Wouldn’t it make more sense to start building luxury condos?

I hadn't thought of the scenarios discussed earlier, but I thought Falcone was doing it in part to promote his "man of the people" image.

[Oscirus]

That's true but at about 25 minutes is when Gordon finds the CLM paper after trying to confront  Gladwell at  his job. Either they messed up/around with the order they showed those scenes or he was planning that hit before Maroni said that.

[possibilities]

All the men on this show sound like they smoke 10 packs of cigarettes a day and are on the verge of death by throat cancer. I know the show is heavily stylized, but it makes me laugh a little, and cringe a lot, thinking about how the actors probably all go home with sore throats and sucking on lozenges after each day of shooting.

 

I also know the story is a male driven story, but I get tired of the female characters either being evil (and using sexuality as though it's the only weapon a female baddie could use-- we don't see the male evils acting like that, and it's super-insulting and exploitative that it's the main way the females present), background (Montoya), or pitiful/annoying (Keen-- she was literally whining, and the "nothing but an accessory" nature of her character annoys me more than if the cast were simply an all male ensemble).

 

I was hoping the street waif from previous episodes (Catwoman, I presume) would be an equal, and that Montoya would be at least an ally and hopefully a strong and smart one (to Jim), but all she seems to have exactly zero purpose other than to walk on/walk off and approve/disapprove. Feh.

 

Kudos for the visuals, which I think are stunning. But I guess I just don't care enough about the angsty guys and their throat nodules to suffer through the female characterization BS.

[MarkHB]

With this episode being about Arkham, I was expecting Hugo Strange to pop up supporting opening Arkham.

 

Hugo Strange is indeed slated to make an appearance.

 

 

So far as the prevalance of the Bruce Wayne stuff, I think Heller and Cannon summed it up before the show hit the air: Bruce wasn't supposed to make much more than token appearances, but they felt that David Mazouz was too awesome an actor to relegate to deep background.

 

I'm still wondering if Fish was behind Gladwell all along, and leaked the info (after, IIRC, the first two councilmen were murdered) as a way of letting nature take its course... i.e., setting up Gladwell while having a good idea that the cops would wind up being her cleaners.  In that scenario, Maroni's call was either redundant or he called one of his own henchmen who didn't make it to the party.  It would explain the list of cops who were going to be arranged to be the mayor's protective detail.

[papillon rouge]

Does anyone know what year this is supposed to be taking place? Between the flip phones, typewriters, cars etc...I am unsure. Is it ambiguous on purpose?

[Trini]

It's ambiguous on purpose.