S01.E05: The Pugilist Break

[HalcyonDays]

Episode synopsis: What looks like a drug overdose death of a reformed junkie-turned community activist results in Henry and Jo tracking a murderer. The complex investigation involves dirty dealings between a real estate developer and a community organizer with millions of dollars at stake. Henry flashes back to the same 1890s New York tenement where he worked as a doctor to help the poor, including an orphan boy who gives him a special handmade gift. Meanwhile, Abe cooks up a Sunday dinner feast for Henry, Jo and himself. When Jo tries to find out how the two men know one another, Henry weaves an elaborate tale to cover the truth.

 

[dubbel zout]

When Jo tries to find out how the two men know one another, Henry weaves an elaborate tale to cover the truth.

You'd think Henry and Abe would have come up with a plausible story ages ago. It's highly unlikely Jo is the first person ever to ask.

[pcta]

You'd think Henry and Abe would have come up with a plausible story ages ago. It's highly unlikely Jo is the first person ever to ask.

Would have to change over the decades.

[shapeshifter]

I think the writers had them fumble their origin story so the detective would be suspicious (and eventually find out the real story). Plus it seemed like a possible set-up for a bit of hilarity if she thinks they're lying about a May-December gay relationship between them. Didn't Abe use the old Seinfeld line, "Not that there's anything wrong with that," when he was clarifying the nature of his partnership with Henry's "father"?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Kind of funny that the episode description makes it sound like the Abe/Henry thing took up a good portion of the episode and it was only about thirty seconds long. While in theory I agree that they probably should have a back story to tell people, it seems like Henry doesn't get close enough to anyone for them to ask. One of my favorite things about this show is the Abe/Henry friendship so I'm glad we get to see some of it every week.

 

So is everything in the shop something that Henry picked up along the way? I totally get him now wanting to sell his credenza to someone who is going to shabby chic the hell out of it, but if his doctor's bag was so important to him, why would he let Abe put it in the shop in the first place?

 

I like Henry's enthusiasm, but sometimes he goes a little too far with his overeager puppy act. But I agree with whoever mentioned a few weeks ago that it's a nice change from his grumpy character on Ringer.

 

Sometimes the exposition is a little too clunky, like the conversation Henry and Jo had about her childhood and her dad.

 

Nitpicky moment: Jo pronouncing gyro as "jie-row." I know it's a New York thing, but as someone who was taught the correct pronunciation in elementary school, that was like nails on a chalkboard to my ears. On a related note, when I was looking for açai juice at a grocery store, they had no idea what I was talking about. Finally one guy said, "Oh, the a-kie juice? I know where it is!" They were so sweet and helpful but my inner nerd was dying inside!

Edited October 15, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[FineWashables]

I was hoping that the little tenement boy would turn out to be Judd Hirsch.  And yeah, while they'd have to revise the story every decade or so, it's just silly that they have no ready answer about how they knew each other.  It's always a shame when a show that tries so hard to be smart leaves weird holes in the basic plot.

[topanga]

 

One of my favorite things about this show is the Abe/Henry friendship so I'm glad we get to see some of it every week.

I love their relationship, too. But it must be weird for Henry to have to pretend that this 70-year old man is his uncle/father-figure, when he's actually Henry's adopted son. So Abe has gone through every stage of his life as Henry's son--infancy, toddlerhood, adolescence, young adult hood, middle-age years, and now old age. To me, that not only explains their closeness, but it also explains why Henry is often "bossy" with Abe, and Abe reacts like a snarky teenager. They're father and son, even though their ages are all weird and twisty.

 

Nitpicky moment: Jo pronouncing gyro as "jie-row." I know it's a New York thing, but as someone who was taught the correct pronunciation in elementary school, that was like nails on a chalkboard to my ears.

I once ordered a Gyro from a Middle Eastern food truck and asked for a Gee-ro, which I thought was correct. Everyone in the crowd stared at me like I was crazy, and even the stand owner said "You mean a Jie-ro?" Needless to say, from then on I always order a "Jie-ro."

[Dust Bunny]

This show has such an upbeat feeling for a procedural. Like noted above, I love the relationship between Henry and Abe. I also like Lucas, Henry's assistant. Joel David Moore brings a lot to each scene he's in. The rat scenes were really cute, and Henry and Lucas have a great dynamic together.

 

I'm in denial about the ratings. I want this show to survive so much. Beyond the show itself, which is so charming, I've loved Ioan Gruffudd since his Horatio Hornblower days (check out "Amazing Grace" if you haven't seen it). It sucked when "Ringer" was cancelled in 2012. So I really want "Forever" to at least see season 2. It's such a welcome breath of fresh air, in comparison to dry and dead-feeling typical procedurals.

[Zayka]

I'm curious when Henry will give himself away? He tends to talk about past and always talks too much). This episode he has almost let it slip again with story about "Alphabet City" in the '80s)

 

That's interesting, in my country  this "gyro" has a completely different name, but there is at least three various pronunciations too)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was taught that it's pronounced yee-row when I lived in Chicago. When I moved to California, I was told the same thing. When I was an adult, I asked a Greek person about it because I had heard several people say jie-row which made me wonder if I had previously been misled (my first clue that I shouldn't have worried is that one of these people pronounced the L sound in quesadilla), and he confirmed that it should be close to yee-row.

I think it's on the list with bruschetta as a word that routinely gets butchered (although I largely blame all those Freschetta commercials in the 90s for the terrible mispronunciation that made most of America assume that bruschetta is pronounced with an SH sound).

I have been told that the reason it's pronounced jie-row in New York is that yee-row sounds too much like hero (as in a sandwich).

I'm curious when Henry will give himself away? He tends to talk about past and always talks too much). This episode he has almost let it slip again with story about "Alphabet City" in the '80s)

I think Henry is normally a talkative person but he doesn't have many people to talk to on a personal level. Aside from Abe, he has no real friends. He talks a lot when he's investigating but keeps it confined to the case, even with his assistant who he spends a lot of time with. Now that he has become comfortable with Jo, sometimes he lets his guard down a little too much when he isn't making an effort to maintain his façade. He is pretty garrulous (like when he's working on a case) but he doesn't say much on a personal level, even to his assistant who he sees several hours a day. Until recently, Abe was the only person he was really relaxed around so I feel like Henry's conversation modes tend to be let it all hang out with Abe or keep it buttoned up around everyone else (in terms of personal information, reminiscing, etc.) with not much in between. Now that he has become more comfortable with Jo, he sometimes gets a little too relaxed and forgets about keeping his secret, hence slipping and accidentally mentioning things like Alphabet City's past.

When I watch shows about immmortal or long living beings (like Buffy the Vampire Slayer), I think about how all this new technology must make it that much harder to maintain a cover story. Back in the olden days that must have been so much easier because paper records were not is easily accessible. But now so many things are online or centralized that it wouldn't take much effort (especially for anyone working in law enforcement) to pull records to search for a history of birth records and other info. A hundred years ago, you could just tell people your name and occupation and that was that. Now people can look through newspaper archives online without even leaving home. I can imagine 200 year old vampires saying, "Technology is cool and all - I mean, check out my new iphone - but it's also a pain in the ass. I had to buy some dead guy's social security number so that I could put a real name on the title for my house."

Edited October 15, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[rho]

I think the writers had them fumble their origin story so the detective would be suspicious (and eventually find out the real story). Plus it seemed like a possible set-up for a bit of hilarity if she thinks they're lying about a May-December gay relationship between them. Didn't Abe use the old Seinfeld line, "Not that there's anything wrong with that," when he was clarifying the nature of his partnership with Henry's "father"?

 

I get the impression that neither of them have had enough personal relationships to ever warrant explaining their relationship. Up until this point I don't think any of Henry's coworkers have even heard of Abe, much less know he lives with Henry. I'm sure if either of them had a romantic interest, they would consider the possibility but probably don't concern themselves with having a cover story in the meantime.

Edited October 17, 2014 by rho

[shapeshifter]

I get the impression that neither of them have enough enough personal relationships to ever warrant explaining their relationship....

I love their relationship, too. But it must be weird for Henry to have to pretend that this 70-year old man is his uncle/father-figure, when he's actually Henry's adopted son. So Abe has gone through every stage of his life as Henry's son--infancy, toddlerhood, adolescence, young adult hood, middle-age years, and now old age.

So this might have been the first time they had to explain it in quite a few years. Maybe their last story was "cousins" or Abe being an older stepbrother.

...I also like Lucas, Henry's assistant. Joel David Moore brings a lot to each scene he's in. The rat scenes were really cute...

I LOLd when he did the quick turn around from being creeped out at being left in the dark to catch rats to something like "come to Papa" to a rat scurrying by.

[sonyab]

I'm in denial about the ratings. I want this show to survive so much.

 

Yeah I want the raitings to go up! I want the show to stay so bad!!! I love the show. I love the relationship between Henry and his son, I love the flashbacks, I love the scenes with Henry and Lucas,and so much more.  I hope this show lasts a long time!

[Melgaypet]

I like this show. I think I've found a new "happy place" show - a cute, charming procedural that isn't going to overtax my brain or wreak havoc with my emotions, has likable, well-intentioned, good-hearted characters, and contains enough serialization/long-term arcs to not have to live or die on the Case (Corpse?) of the Week. My last favorite of this type of show was Numb3rs, which, perhaps not coincidentally, also had Judd Hirsch. Love Judd Hirsch.

 

I tend to be less nit-picky on plot details or continuity with these shows. I just relax and have fun.

[blackwing]

Third episode in a row where Henry didn't die. I noticed they took out the voiceover bit in the opening credits where he says "when I die I always reawaken in a body of water, and I'm always naked." Wonder if they are moving away from the dying constantly bit. Because it's really one of the main things that distinguishes this show from Elementary. I liked how he learned things in the first two episodes from his deaths that helped him solve the crimes.

Ioan Grufudd runs funny. He kept his elbows tucked in and pumped his arms up and down. It was like he was emulating Jerry Seinfeld running.

[Surrealist]

This show has such an upbeat feeling for a procedural. Like noted above, I love the relationship between Henry and Abe. I also like Lucas, Henry's assistant. Joel David Moore brings a lot to each scene he's in. The rat scenes were really cute, and Henry and Lucas have a great dynamic together.

I'm in denial about the ratings. I want this show to survive so much. Beyond the show itself, which is so charming, I've loved Ioan Gruffudd since his Horatio Hornblower days (check out "Amazing Grace" if you haven't seen it). It sucked when "Ringer" was cancelled in 2012. So I really want "Forever" to at least see season 2. It's such a welcome breath of fresh air, in comparison to dry and dead-feeling typical procedurals.

I feel the same way. It's not a unique concept, but I like that it's a bit lighter and more upbeat than other procedural shows. There's the looming reality (well, on the show) that Abe will eventually die unlike Henry. At that point, Henry will have lost his wife and son and will be truly alone. That fact looms over the show and keeps it from being too upbeat (not that Judd Hirsch is at death's door). I don't know if I'm making sense.

Anyway, I enjoy Ioan and Judd's scenes together. I wish they had even more scenes together.

ElectricBoogaloo: I grew up in a town with many Greek families and I always understood the pronunciation to be "yee-row."

Edited October 16, 2014 by Surrealist

[attica]

My first gyro was made by a Greek guy in a Greek luncheonette who pronounced it 'jy-roe', the memory of which always makes me smile since I've learned that it's wrong. Still, you can't order a 'yee-roe' in this town and expect to be fed.  The cognitive dissonance is easier to dispel for me if I think about the rotating spit the lamb cooks on spinning in a gyro (Greek for 'circle').

 

However you say it, it's tasty.

 

I missed Henry's answer to Jo's admonishment to get a cell phone. What did he say his problem is?

 

I was sorta hoping when explaining their relationship, Henry would say, "Aww, he's like a son to me" in a joking way, which would be charming, as well as true.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, tonight on The Soup, Joel McHale made a joke about how he heard a show title with the word Euros and thought it was a show about gyros (obviously the Greek yee-ros pronunciation or the joke wouldn't make any sense at all!). I immediately thought of the discussion here!

[henripootel]

I have been told that the reason it's pronounced jie-row in New York is that yee-row sounds too much like hero (as in a sandwich).

Which would be fine except new yorkers (at least in my neck of the woods) called heroes 'grinders'.  And I think we also said 'jie-ros', although I heard it both ways.

I'm curious when Henry will give himself away?

 

I hope they handle it well.  Always thought the did this poorly in Highlander when they compared the signatures through the ages of the guy who owned Conner Macleod's building, found similarities (and irregularities in birth/death records that could be otherwise explained) and concluded 'immortal'.  Bit of a stretch when 'crazy history buff' or virtually anything else is more plausible.

 

One of the things Henry left out of his discourse on boxing is that back in the bloody bare-knuckle days, very few guys died.  Now with modern gloves and rules, I think its like two dozen deaths per year.  It's easier to beat a man into brain damage if your hands are nice and padded.  Moral of the story: not everything has gotten better even though many have.  Be interesting to hear Henry talk about that.

[attica]

called heroes 'grinders'

 

I thought that was a Connecticut-ism. It's a horrible name for a sandwich, regardless. I'm sorry to all those who know no better. ;)  I've lived all over NYS, and if it ain't 'hero', it's 'sub,' short for submarine, which is what its long bun looks like. (Gyros are pita-based, for the unfamiliar.)

 

Damn. Hungry now.

[blackwing]

I too thought "grinder" was a New England term.  In New York, it seems to be "hero" everywhere.  In Philly, it's "hoagie".  Most everywhere else, it seems to be "sub" (hence... "Lunchtime.  I'm going to Subway to get a sub.")

 

I do agree that it's "yee-roh" if you use a Greek pronunciation, but many say "jai-roh" like Martinez did.  I've even heard "gee-roh" with a hard G.  I don't think people will ever agree on the pronunciation.  It's like brooshetta vs. broosketta (Americanised format seems to be shetta) and my personal pet peeve, new-klee-er vs. newk-yew-ler.

 

Thinking about the cuts from the opening monologue, did they also cut out "now you know about as much as I do"?  Because we really don't.  In the episode where Abe injected him with the stuff that killed him, we were wondering what happened to his clothes.  Abe must have known, because he was standing right there.  In the next episode, we saw in the scene where he got hit by the truck on the bridge that his body fades away when he dies.  Including clothes and all personal effects.  Where do they go?  Do they just fade away and disappear into nothingness?  In the first episode, didn't the pocketwatch survive since he wasn't holding it?  So anything in direct contact with him disappears but stuff he's not touching stays?  Why?  What if Abe was holding his hand as he faded out?  Would Abe fade out too?

 

Seems like it'd be good if they could provide a better explanation.  As it is, I'm assuming this is why he doesn't carry a cell phone.  Because if he dies he'd just have to keep replacing them.  Still wondering if they have made a conscious decision to stop killing him.  

[Oscirus]

If they aren't going to kill him then the show should definitely handle his near death experiences like this. I still want to see him die though. Morbid I know, I just need to see crazy deaths.  The killer was recognizable as soon as they showed him on the screen as it's a fairly common story.  I like that they're building up the Henry- Jo relationship organically and it's not love at first site crap.   I don't think the reveal happens till mid season.

[alias1]

I am loving Lucas more and more.  He did surgery on the poor rat who was suffering.  Aww.

 

I was totally surprised how Jo pronounced Gyro.  I've never heard it that way.  I've always heard it as Yee-ro.   And I don't believe there is any debate about how to pronounce nuclear.  One way is just wrong.  It's not regional.

Edited October 17, 2014 by SierraMist

[WendyCR72]

I've only ever heard Gyro pronounced as "Jai-ro". Who knew?

[Surrealist]

If they aren't going to kill him then the show should definitely handle his near death experiences like this. I still want to see him die though. Morbid I know, I just need to see crazy deaths. The killer was recognizable as soon as they showed him on the screen as it's a fairly common story. I like that they're building up the Henry- Jo relationship organically and it's not love at first site crap. I don't think the reveal happens till mid season.

I agree. If they made a Henry and Jo relationship immediate and obvious, then I'd be bored. The writers should continue focusing on Henry's (and even Abe's!) development.

I wonder if the writers the decided to kill off Henry, they would do so in the final episode of the series.

[Sakura12]

I was taught that it's pronounced yee-row when I lived in Chicago. When I moved to California, I was told the same thing. When I was an adult, I asked a Greek person about it because I had heard several people say jie-row which made me wonder if I had previously been misled (my first clue that I shouldn't have worried is that one of these people pronounced the L sound in quesadilla), and he confirmed that it should be close to yee-row.

 

I'm from Chicago and everyone I know pronounces it yee-row. When Jo said what she eating, I had to go "wait, what is she eating?" I've never heard it pronounced that way. 

 

I do am loving this show. It's charming and entertaining. And the first show where the actors aren't being forced into a ship. Henry and Jo are acting like people that are working together and like and respect each other. It's refreshing, so I hope they don't plan on going down the cliche route or if they do they keep doing it like they are now. However that could be why the show is not doing well, most people I've found only like watching shows with people to ship.

 

For me Henry and Abe's relationship is the most interesting one. I love that Henry is the father and Abe acts like a teenager sometimes when Henry tells him what to do. Their ages is what makes their relationship intriguing.  

 

With the way Henry talks, it's surprising no one picks up on him sounding like he's lived history not just talking about it. I just want once for Jo to say "You're talking like you were actually there". 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Sakura12

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What I love about the Henry/Jo relationship right now is that there is no sexual or romantic interest between them. Neither of them is in a place to want that so they are coworkers who are becoming platonic friends, as opposed to many shows where a male/female partnership requires at least one (if not both) people to be attracted to the other, have a crush, or actively pursue the other. There is no UST, no longing looks, no intense staring, etc. There aren't enough male/female relationships like that on tv!

[DioxinBlues]

I really hope the ratings improve. This little show that could is such a relief from the other procedurals out there, surprisingly cheerful and with a solid group of actors. The writing of the weekly murders could use a little more sophistication but that's my main quibble. 

[HalcyonDays]

I've only ever heard Gyro pronounced as "Jai-ro". Who knew?

 

I first thought the term was pronounced Jai-Roe - the J pronounced like a hard G, like the word Giant. Then learned that apparently it's supposed to be pronounced Yeer-Ros. Roll the tongue on the second R and the G is supposed to be silent. But that's what I I learned growing up in my little white trash town. *shrug*

[BooBear]

However that could be why the show is not doing well, most people I've found only like watching shows with people to ship.

 

Oh I am completely shipping them, just like the slow burn.  Maybe others don't. I keep forgetting to watch it -- I hope ABC gives it a chance. There is a lot coming at me in the fall and you might not be able to find it.

[Melgaypet]

I first thought the term was pronounced Jai-Roe - the J pronounced like a hard G, like the word Giant.

 

I think you mean a soft G, a hard G is pronounced like in the word gasoline. Anyway, the way I hear it around here is "zhee-row," though I have no idea how correct that is. Probably not very, since "around here" is central Missouri, not exactly a hotbed of Greek cuisine or culture.

[EverCat]

Around here, gyros are usually called döner

[Whimsy]

Ok.  I let you have a little leeway, but the pronunciation topic is waaaaaay off topic.  Remember what we're here for.  To talk about this particular episode.

 

Thanks and happy posting!

[Eneya]

Where is the topic for the last episode?

[Whimsy]

This is the latest episode topic.  The next episode will air tonight.

[HalcyonDays]

GenL - the airing schedule for Forever is one day ahead here in Canada. It airs Monday at 9 pm here, but in the US airs on a Tuesday. Every week I'm like, where's the topic!! That's why Eneya is asking. I'm not sure if you want to consider opening the topic on Monday's for the Canadian watchers.

[Netfoot]

I I once ordered a Gyro from a Middle Eastern food truck and asked for a Gee-ro, which I thought was correct. Everyone in the crowd stared at me like I was crazy, and even the stand owner said "You mean a Jie-ro?" Needless to say, from then on I always order a "Jie-ro."

 

I pronounce it "Doner Kebab".