S05.E01: No Sanctuary

[ghoulina]

So I watched again last night, and I definitely think Carol attacked the prison the same day Rick and Michonne, etc. were taken. She and Tyrese heard the gun shots, that lured the walkers towards Terminus - that had to have been when the Termites were corralling them towards A car. They walk a little further on down the road and meet Martin setting up fireworks. From his conversations, it seems that when something happens to bring walkers towards Terminus, the Termites go out and set off coordinated noise to distract the walkers and steer them away. Plus, it didn't seem like Carol and Ty stopped to spend the night anywhere. 

 

Then at Terminus you have Gareth asking about shell counts.....I don't think that's something you'd wait a day or two on. And Alex had been shot during that scuffle, now he's on the slab, looking pretty fresh. I don't think they'd wait a day or two to cure and dry his body. Also, our group in the train car making their weapons, Daryl is telling Magging about Beth. Again, not something you'd wait on. 

 

The only confusing thing is I seem to remember it being sunset when Rick and co. showed up at the fence for Terminus....seems an awful lot of time elapsed and the sun is still up. Maybe it's just a continuity error, or maybe I'm just wrong in remembering. But I don't see how this could have happened over a few days. It seems like the Termites knew Rick's group would be trouble, and didn't want to give them too much time to devise a way out. 

 

 

 

I did hear Gareth mention "public face" in the trough room. I don't know if that was so much for other residents of Terminus, though. I thought it might be more about getting things dialed in in case any other survivors came up the track that day. 

 

 

I have to say, while I really enjoyed the reunions of Daryl and Carol/Rick and family, I also loved the moment between Rick and Tyrese. Just that pat on the shoulder and that look. I mean, what can you really say to the man who saved your daughter's life? 

 

I do wonder if we will see the group's reaction to what happened in The Grove, or did Carol already tell them about it? She may very well have, on the walk to the cabin. It's clear Rick and Carl weren't surprised to see Judith at that point. I doubt Carol was all, "You have to come with me" and then didn't say another word. So I imagine she briefly filled them in on their journey while walking over. 

[ghoulina]

Of course I hate the character of Gareth, but I really like the actor.  I think he was able to achieve what the governor couldn't quite do, and that's portray a charismatic cult leader, who is also truly sinister.  He scares me.

 

Agreed. Gareth is a great villain. He's not what you'd expect, and he's just so calm and sure of himself for a little, nerdy dude. I like atypical villains. It's a lot more interesting to have this skinny hipster, who started out wanting to help people, become an off-the-charts psychopath....than to deal with some asshole biker guys raping their way through the ZA because that's just who they are. 

[kikismom]

So I watched again last night, and I definitely think Carol attacked the prison the same day Rick and Michonne, etc. were taken. She and Tyrese heard the gun shots, that lured the walkers towards Terminus - that had to have been when the Termites were corralling them towards A car. They walk a little further on down the road and meet Martin setting up fireworks. From his conversations, it seems that when something happens to bring walkers towards Terminus, the Termites go out and set off coordinated noise to distract the walkers and steer them away. Plus, it didn't seem like Carol and Ty stopped to spend the night anywhere. 

 

Then at Terminus you have Gareth asking about shell counts.....I don't think that's something you'd wait a day or two on. And Alex had been shot during that scuffle, now he's on the slab, looking pretty fresh. I don't think they'd wait a day or two to cure and dry his body. Also, our group in the train car making their weapons, Daryl is telling Magging about Beth. Again, not something you'd wait on. 

 

The only confusing thing is I seem to remember it being sunset when Rick and co. showed up at the fence for Terminus....seems an awful lot of time elapsed and the sun is still up. Maybe it's just a continuity error, or maybe I'm just wrong in remembering. But I don't see how this could have happened over a few days. It seems like the Termites knew Rick's group would be trouble, and didn't want to give them too much time to devise a way out. 

 

 

 

I did hear Gareth mention "public face" in the trough room. I don't know if that was so much for other residents of Terminus, though. I thought it might be more about getting things dialed in in case any other survivors came up the track that day. 

 

 

I have to say, while I really enjoyed the reunions of Daryl and Carol/Rick and family, I also loved the moment between Rick and Tyrese. Just that pat on the shoulder and that look. I mean, what can you really say to the man who saved your daughter's life? 

 

I do wonder if we will see the group's reaction to what happened in The Grove, or did Carol already tell them about it? She may very well have, on the walk to the cabin. It's clear Rick and Carl weren't surprised to see Judith at that point. I doubt Carol was all, "You have to come with me" and then didn't say another word. So I imagine she briefly filled them in on their journey while walking over. 

Excellent post; I agree with everything you said --- except that Rick and Carl weren't surprised to see Judith? I thought they were, but it all happened so fast. They packed so much into one episode, there must have been hell in the editing room deciding how many seconds to cut here and there to make it all fit the allotted time frame.

While watching the show the first time, I admit I was confused at first when Maggie starts using Herschel's watch. It was a big deal in the season ender of 4 that Rick spots it, then takes Alex hostage. But that was so actiony I hadn't paid attention to what Rick did with it through all the running and shooting. So I'm all "Wait! How'd Maggie get another watch that looks just like Herschel's?"  DUH.

[ghoulina]

I agree. I do wonder if the show will have the guts to show one of the "good" guys, one of the guys we have been with since the beginning, slipping so far down that slope and turning "bad".

 

That would be interesting. The closest they've come was Rick planning to offer up Michonne to the Governor. That was a huge slip down the slope, IMO, and probably a big factor in why he took up farming. He was probably like, "Damn, I was about to send an innocent woman off to die. I can't lead these people!" 

Excellent post; I agree with everything you said --- except that Rick and Carl weren't surprised to see Judith?

 

To me, they looked surprised more like "I can't believe it's really true", but not like they had NO idea who Carol was bringing them to see. Like they wouldn't truly believe it until they saw her.

[kikismom]

Agreed. Gareth is a great villain. He's not what you'd expect, and he's just so calm and sure of himself for a little, nerdy dude. I like atypical villains. It's a lot more interesting to have this skinny hipster, who started out wanting to help people, become an off-the-charts psychopath....than to deal with some asshole biker guys raping their way through the ZA because that's just who they are. 

http://i.imgur.com/toYwoKw.gif

[lulee]

I don't think Eugene even cares about going to DC in particular; he just need some "mission" to convince people to keep him safe, and getting to DC to cure the walkers is a pretty good story. .

That really stuck out to me too. Rosita (I think) said something like "we have to tell them" and he put her off - what was that about? That they're leaving? Maybe that they were at Terminus before? That they know Eugene is full of crap but are going along just to have some sense of purpose?.

i think Abraham and Rosita are just all about their *mission* to get the great Eugene to DC. I think he's full of it and if they actually make it to DC, he's going to be relived to find that nothing's left and he won't have to admit he's full of shit.

Re Rick wanting to kill all the Termites: good warfare tactic in general, but the group was severely underesourced to take on the Termites, and forget hand to hand -- between Termites' guns and walkers, CDB v4.0 would have suffered casualties.

Edited October 14, 2014 by lulee

[diebartdie]

So I watched again last night, and I definitely think Carol attacked the prison the same day Rick and Michonne, etc. were taken. She and Tyrese heard the gun shots, that lured the walkers towards Terminus - that had to have been when the Termites were corralling them towards A car. They walk a little further on down the road and meet Martin setting up fireworks. From his conversations, it seems that when something happens to bring walkers towards Terminus, the Termites go out and set off coordinated noise to distract the walkers and steer them away. Plus, it didn't seem like Carol and Ty stopped to spend the night anywhere. 

Oh yes that makes sense! Thanks for putting that together for me, I haven't yet re-watched the episode but what you said really nails it down for me! Cheers!

Edited October 14, 2014 by diebartdie

[CletusMusashi]

If he wanted to, say, blow up the entire town on their way out, I'd understand. But going back for an extended gun battle, probably against superior numbers, is just stupid. I mean, at least wait until Judith can hold a gun!

The world is a big, empty place right now. Just head for D.C.

Even if you did go back to Terminus, and kill everybody there, you wouldn't know how many weren't there. You wouldn't know how many Termites were spread out far into the woods looking for you, while you were looking for them. In other words, whether Rick had gone back or not, there would still be no guarantee that the next group of people they see on the road isn't a Terminus crew looking for vengeance. Who besides Gareth would they actually recognize?

Objectively speaking, the biggest thing they have to gain by continuing the war is higher casualties.Well, that and vengeance. But vengeance is an expensive luxury in the zombie apocalypse. If your goal is to rebuild Terminus, become a farmer again, and see what exciting mutant strain of swine flu you can create this time, that's one thing. But if you just plan on leaving anyway, then the way to survive is by hit and run tactics. Run when you can, kill when you have to, and run again when running makes more sense. The world has other bad guys in it, so don't kid yourself that a war in one city is going to make the next one down the road any safer for you.

Edited October 15, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[RainOnToosdays]

Though I'm still mad at AMC for making us wait eight months for a new episode - way too crazy long to make a fan base wait for a TV show to continue (not to mention risky) - I have to say that the premiere was quite satisfying.

The opening scenes in the slaughter area  - from being brought in there bound and gagged to the final moments over the trough - were so terrifying and gruesome I could only intermittently watch with one barely-open eye, just enough so I would know when it was over. I really hope this is not a harbinger of how brutal the series might become.
All the Walker killing is just silliness; no matter how many new & grotesque ways they dream up to show Walkers being dispatched it's still watchable because we know Zombies aren't real and that even if they were, they are just mindless unfeeling things that can't feel fear or pain so who cares, we can just sit back and maybe even giggle a bit because we know how silly it is while we marvel at the job done by the makeup and special effects teams.
Walkers killing humans is harder to watch because whether the humans are good guys or bad guys we know they feel terror and pain and it's a horrible way to go. But again, Walkers are just mindless things, there is no evil in whats happening, there is no boogie man behind it. Though the deaths are gruesome there is no human element behind them, no thought, no maliciousness, no evil.
Humans killing other humans in horrible ways and for no apparent reason - that's were it gets unwatchable because now we're dealing with sentient beings perpetrating the horrors and that is F'ing scary!
All of the comments I've read on the internet and heard in RL re the terrrible Termites focus on their cannabalism. Something they do to the victims after they are dead. Eating human flesh is a taboo most humans wouldn't even consider crossing but it was practical and the Termites were nothng if not practical. Yes, EWWWWWWW, but the victims are dead at that point, they aren't feeling anything. The unthinkable unforgivable horrifying terrifying aspect of the Termites is what they did to their victims while they were alive and how they killed them. The torture of making them watch what was going to happen and the sheer brutality of the method of death, without so much as a flicker of empathy or any human emotion at all really... that is the stuff nightmares are made of.
I get that TPTB are trying to use THEN to show us that the Termites were also subject to extreme brutality by other inhuman humans, but ya know what? I don't care. I don't want to see it or hear about it. Showing us more gruesome brutality to excuse/explain the gruesome brutality they already showed us is too much. Rick & Co should have went back and killed every last one of them as Rick wanted. I really hope the show doesn't make us suffer through more flashbacky "THEN" scenes.

 

Past that, I really enjoyed the premiere and look forward to a new season with everyone reunited, save poor Beth who thanks to the darn spoiliing ads AMC ran all weekend we already know is still alive somewhere.

 

Commando Carol was great! Though I was a little distracted by how pretty her hair looked as she wreaked her havoc. It looked a bit orange, too, like she'd gotten into some of Sgt. Abraham's dye. Which reminds me, in watching the reruns during the weekend marathon I couldn't help but notice Daryl's hair in his scene with Rick outside the car the morning after their reunion. It was completely and rather unnaturally-looking black but he had an obvious grey patch in his beard! Cracked me up. And about the length of Daryl's hair and it always in his eyes and probably distracting to his aim so why doesn't he hack it off .... To me it fits his character traits. For someone who is closed-off & guarded and uncomfortable with feelings, hair is a wonderful thing to hide behind, both literally and psychologically. I don't think we'll see a short-haired Daryl until he's undergone total transformation mentally into being more sure of himself & more comfortable showing emotions. 

 

I melted with everyone else when he reunited with Carol, not just because of the embrace but because HE initiated it; our man Daryl who has so far been rather adverse to touching/being touched just went all-in. He may be getting that haircut soon afterall. ;)

And I agree with those who said the head-nudge thing was rather cat-like. Apropos given Joe's talk re being indoor or outdoor cats. 

 

Tyrese. Sigh. I have not yet been able to muster up one iota of interest in his character. I don't really want him to die but I wish he could just sort of fade away into the background or somehow go the way of Chuck Cunningham. Rosita hasn't had any purpose or much screentime yet, I could take her or leave her, but Sgt. Abraham and Eugene I rather like. They're entertaining and add a bit of much-needed lightness to things.  I'm undecided on what Eugene's story is but the fact that he still sports an 80's hairdo, is socially enept, and liked videogames, doesn't rule out the possibility that he was also a highly intelligent scientist. Just look at them boys on The Big Bang Theory. ;)

 

Oh, one more thing. Is anyone else bothered by all the people left in the boxcars? We heard them screaming and calling for help so we know there was more than just that one bad dude they let out. With Terminus abandoned and overrun with Walkers those poor people are going to die a horrible death, locked up in those hot cars with no food or water. Ugh. I hope they can work in a scene sometime this season that lets us know they all got out somehow. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lulee]

Regarding Carol & Darryl: the way he ran to her and embraced her, he saw her and he saw family. I looked at a wiki about the show yesterday and the estimated timeline on it was that they were on day 500-something of the ZA, and Carol and Darryl have been together most of that time (along with Rick, Glenn, and Carl). They've lost so many people since they first met, and she is someone who has always appreciated him and never torn him down. Does he see her as a mother figure? a sister? a companion? I don't think it matters (and I honestly hope the show doesn't feel the need to define it further). She is part of his family.

[LadyArcadia]

I've gotta say, they were pretty dumb cannibals. I understand it for plot reasons, but which self-respecting cannibal sees meaty, bulky Abraham and Eugene and instead decides that stick-thin Rick looks more appetizing? Seriously, when Andy Lincoln turns sideways, he practically disappears, he's probably the member of the cast with the least meat on the bones. Eating him would have been frustrating as hell, like sucking on a particularly tiny little bird.

 

 

You know, for a moment I thought I was completely desensitized. Then I read this.

[AngelaHunter]

The opening scenes in the slaughter area  - from being brought in there bound and gagged to the final moments over the trough - were so terrifying and gruesome I could only intermittently watch with one barely-open eye

 

This x 2. I haven't seen anything this graphic and brutal outside a movie like "Hostel". The flaming zombie eating a guy's face off? The human torsos hung from hooks? And amidst this unspeakable carnage, blood and horror, Rick still  wasn't allowed to say "Fuck", a mere word which is obviously considered to be more offensive than throats being slit.

 

Are the parallels between Rick and Governor intentional? From the last scene of the last season when a shadow made his eye appear to have a patch on it, to him mowing down the Termites with the machine gun to his "Kill them all." Hmmm...put that way, I guess it IS deliberate. I liked it.

 

I had no problem with Carol leaving Mary to be eaten alive. I'm sure the sight of all those stuffed toys would negate any feelings of sympathy. Besides, we had no time to get to know anything about the Termites so who cares what happens to them?

 

Daryl and Carol - eek! Actually made me tear up for reasons already mentioned here.

 

Though I was a little distracted by how pretty her hair looked as she wreaked her havoc.

 

 

She had smeared blood all over it.

 

I really wish this first ep. had been at least 1 1 /2 hours. Although I liked it and was on the edge of my seat, it just felt like everything was too rushed and scenes too short.

[Pete Martell]

 

I was glad that Glen wanted to open the train car and free the captives, because I think he assumed they were probably innocent people like his group, who would surely die if they were not freed.  I have no idea why that freak who was apparently one of the original attackers was in the train car, I would have thought he'd have been killed long ago, but whatever.  

 

He was probably the most monstrous of the group and they kept him alive to torment him - staying in there losing his mind over a lengthy period of time.

[Ottis]

I have no complaints. This ep was just about perfect. No one acting stupid, some characters delivering when needed, action, bad guys. I loved it. Especially the horror of the slaughter room. That was tense.

 

Gareth is a great villain.

 

 

My only issue with him, and it's probably just me, is he greatly resembles Taco from The League.

 

I don't really want him to die but I wish he could just sort of fade away into the background or somehow go the way of Chuck Cunningham.

 

 

I actually got this reference. I'm old.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Ottis

[ghoulina]

Oh, one more thing. Is anyone else bothered by all the people left in the boxcars? We heard them screaming and calling for help so we know there was more than just that one bad dude they let out. With Terminus abandoned and overrun with Walkers those poor people are going to die a horrible death, locked up in those hot cars with no food or water. Ugh. I hope they can work in a scene sometime this season that lets us know they all got out somehow.

 

I thought about this too. We definitely heard female screams last year. But the one box car they happened to open contained this psycho dude, so then they were probably like, "Fuck That". I mean, really, that's a hard call. Run around Terminus, opening up box cars, to free everyone? Or just get our group and GTFO? I hate to say it, but I'd probably choose the latter. It would just be too risky to stick around much longer. 

 

I think that's another interesting aspect of the morality issue - not just "is aggressive act ____ acceptable?", but is "passive act ____ acceptable?". 

[Too Late Kev]

All of the comments I've read on the internet and heard in RL re the terrrible Termites focus on their cannabalism. Something they do to the victims after they are dead. Eating human flesh is a taboo most humans wouldn't even consider crossing but it was practical and the Termites were nothng if not practical. Yes, EWWWWWWW, but the victims are dead at that point, they aren't feeling anything. The unthinkable unforgivable horrifying terrifying aspect of the Termites is what they did to their victims while they were alive and how they killed them. The torture of making them watch what was going to happen and the sheer brutality of the method of death, without so much as a flicker of empathy or any human emotion at all really... that is the stuff nightmares are made of.

The Termites could have been more humane by conking their victims on the head when they were "out" because of the gas. At least, I assume the gas put them out. But it does seem like they were going for the most terror possible. Way to emulate your tormenters, Termites! :/

[Iguessnot]

 

Carol saw Rick and the others being forced to go into the train car, and she knew Rick and some of the men had been taken somewhere, because she asked crazy Mary about it. So it seems that Rick's group didn't have that much time in the train car to prepare their weapons before the gas was thrown in, and then the Termites wasted no time in getting the four men to the trough.

No, Carol saw Rick being carried out of the train car, headed for the slaughterhouse. 

[Boofish]

I don't think Carol told Rick Lil Ass-Kicker was alive and well right away. He was walking to slow to that cabin. Had he known he would have went full Usan Bolt followed closely by Carl and Sasha

[Caelicola]

You know, for a moment I thought I was completely desensitized. Then I read this.

Hee, sorry. Between this show and Hannibal, I've gotten a little morbid when it comes to cannibalism.

[Uncle Benzene]

I don't think Carol told Rick Lil Ass-Kicker was alive and well right away. He was walking to slow to that cabin. Had he known he would have went full Usan Bolt followed closely by Carl and Sasha

 

I think you're woefully underestimating Daryl & Michonne's foot speed here. Heh.

 

I'll give Carl the benefit of the doubt based on pure emotion, and I suppose Sasha does look like she could have been a track star in college. So, point taken. But I think we're gonna need a 40-yard dash to settle the matter. Who can we contact to get that set up? Hardwick?

[Rosiejuliemom]

Carol was supposed to have been killed off during S3.  The creators were going to kill her off on the same episode that Lori dies.  T-Dog ended up dying instead.  Andrew Lincoln (Rick) and Norman (Reedus) argued to spare Carol and so Melissa McBride's job was saved.  Given that Lori died in that episode there was no need to kill either T-Dog or Carol(IMO).

 

 

I don't quite know what to do with this information. I mean, I love Carol now and think that her character development since that episode has been fantastic, but T-Dog. Why didn't they allow him to live, too? Lori's death would have been enough sad for one episode. Maybe I'm still bitter.

 

The mud/blood in Carol's hair was a wonderful color. Melissa is definitely an Autumn.

[ghoulina]

The Termites could have been more humane by conking their victims on the head when they were "out" because of the gas. At least, I assume the gas put them out.

 

Were they fully out? I'm not sure what was used, but I figured it was just something that would disorient them while they were removed and bound. 

[Too Late Kev]

I don't know, but remember Rick's groggy view of the guy cutting up the other guy? It seemed like he'd been out but was coming back to consciousness.  If they were basically dragging them to the trough anyway, why not conk them on the head when they were disoriented? The Termites seemed to be perfectly happy to have all eight lined up and conscious for the conking and bloodletting.

 

Suddenly I'm thinking about the group "Fine Young Cannibals." That's what Gareth and his hipster friends are! But it's more like FYC and their mother Mary.

[JackONeill]

Speaking of setting up a 40-yard dash to see who's quickest.  Remember the Battle of the Network Stars?  Damn, I betcha Camp Dinner Bell (and all its additions) could kick the ass of any other team.  Well, the cast from Hell on Wheels might given them a go of it.

[40Love]

And how weird is it that he seemed prepared to eat his own brother?

 

I thought the same thing. I would think him being one of the "Founding Fathers" they would treat him with reverence and actually bury him. To me, the flashbacks and signs in the candle room indicated that they saw outsiders as the enemy who they would entrap, destroy and eventually eat. The fact that the brother was treated no differently than their enemies tells me the group was totally off the charts crazy!

 

It amuses me that the cannibals apparently have reports and paperwork.  Gareth was walking around with his notebook like some asshole mid-level micro-manager.

 

Or as Conan called him, every annoying Starbucks manager you've ever met. LOL!

 

Even with that, Martin was the most irritating Termite to me, with his stupid little cocky grin. He immediately went into lie-mode claiming he had a safe place for them to live... even after they clearly heard him say his people were going to "bleed out" their friend, the kid in the hat!

 

He was so cocky; so sure he and his group were going to be win in the end. That was clear to me when he told Tyrese he really didn't want to do "this" today. He thought it was game-over when he picked up that walkie-talkie to call the base. He thought Tyrese was dead and he was calling in to warn them Carol was on the way. 

 

IMO Martin and the rest of the Termites were drunk with power. They had outmaneuvered, killed and eaten so many unsuspecting people that he had no doubt Carol and Tyrese were doomed. But, like Rick said, he REALLY did not know who he was screwing with. Heh!

[Iguessnot]

I don't know, but remember Rick's groggy view of the guy cutting up the other guy? It seemed like he'd been out but was coming back to consciousness.  If they were basically dragging them to the trough anyway, why not conk them on the head when they were disoriented? The Termites seemed to be perfectly happy to have all eight lined up and conscious for the conking and bloodletting.

 

Suddenly I'm thinking about the group "Fine Young Cannibals." That's what Gareth and his hipster friends are! But it's more like FYC and their mother Mary.

 

Rick was groggy because the Termite kicked him in the head for busting up his nose when coming out of the train car. I had assumed it was just some tear gas canister. That doesn't make you groggy does it? Just the debilitating effects of the irritants to make you controllable.

[Seawolff]

Re: how the terminians could have become cold hearted cannibals. (I have met some tender hearted ones) Garth and co were imprisioned by bad guys for weeks or more. Their captors were rough people who kept them alive for their amusement. What to feed the captives? How about torturing them further by feeding them their own friends once they die? One might acquire a morbid taste for meat and have no problem with eating dead enemies.

Once the terminians escape, they might continue to advertise sanctuary for a number of reasons....here's an idea....

People are going to come anyways, might as well pretend to be altruistic to get their guard down. Some can join us, those who are too threatening, like our previous captors, we will think of as enemies......Mmmmmm......and put them down. Mmmmm.......did you acquire a taste for Herman? Cuz I got a hankering for some long pig.

I think Carol and Rick won't have any problem getting back to business as usual. I don't think Rick ever wanted to banish her in the first place. He had had a pretty bad beating given him by Tyrese. The Tyrese who doesn't want to hurt anyone, and who doesn't think Rick did it, beats Rick up. Rick basically makes a case to Carol that he doesn't want her to be ripped up by a vengeful Tyrese. It's with heavy heart that he provisions her and gives her a car that is long enough to camp in. He adds that he doesn't think she should have made that call and also adds that he can't have her around his kids, but I think he hasn't had time to think it through.

Tyrese stated last season that his reason for not killing walkers at the fence was because it was different from when they were out in the wild defending themselves from direct horror, so killing the walkers, then bursting in and punching gum chomper are actually two things he has done recently.

I think the time line is just a week or two since Carol and Rick parted and the prison was destroyed. I'm ignoring miraculous recovery of Rick's wounds. Let's face it, Tyrese on the run with the kids and meeting Carol couldn't have lasted more than a week, and hippie Sam being fresh meat on the same menu are two details that indicate a short time frame. In all that's happened in the short time I feel that they have all made mistakes as well as learned things about themselves and each other that serve to make the group even more cohesive. They will move past the past and get into the business of as joyful a survival as possible.

I think Daryl is totally comfortable with Carol, is thrilled to see l'il asskicker, is feeling like Rick is his brother and totally getting how being a father could give you the drive to banish Carol or bite out a guy's throat to save your child. Now he has incentive to rally the group to look for Beth.

Abraham: "Wow. Am I glad I followed Glen. This is an army! Now I have to talk them into going back into terminus to get a damn vehicle"

The look on mullet savior's face at the sight of the Rick, Carl, Judith reunion was priceless. "They have a baby. I have no way to process this." ..........."maybe I have a chance......." "There is no way that these people give a shit about me."

Morgan: " shit! What the hell did I leave town for? Oh yeah, the food was gone. Why do I never catch up to these guys?"

Edited October 14, 2014 by Seawolff

[Turtle]

I'm trying to reconcile how cannibalism works in a world where everyone turns in to a walker not too long after they die.  Alex, for example, on that table in the slaughter room.  He had to have been dead at least a little while, because in the interim, all our guys had been locked in the box car, started making weapons, been gassed, been hauled to slaughter room, and then been readied for slaughter.  And all they had done to Alex at that point, it seemed, was cut his leg off.  The close up of his face didn't appear to show any head wounds.  Rick even said "Let him turn", because it's inevitable.  But we have no idea how long it takes to turn, and it seems that it can take anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes.  But still, how is this working? 

 

They (and we) have no idea how the virus works, really, so they can't know how to stop people from turning.  Or do they???  Why wouldn't bits and pieces of dead people "turn"?  Even if they're harmless bits and pieces, they'd still be wiggling around or whatever, right?  We've seen dismembered pieces of walkers twitching and jerking before; why wouldn't dismembered pieces in a stew do the same?  Crispy Walkers don't die, so cooking them can't be the thing to keep them dead.  I imagine the bloodletting may help, but I don't understand how, because slitting someone's throat isn't going to drain ALL of their blood.  

 

Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it's really been bugging me.  

[Constantinople]

 

And how weird is it that he seemed prepared to eat his own brother?

 

I thought the same thing. I would think him being one of the "Founding Fathers" they would treat him with reverence and actually bury him. To me, the flashbacks and signs in the candle room indicated that they saw outsiders as the enemy who they would entrap, destroy and eventually eat. The fact that the brother was treated no differently than their enemies tells me the group was totally off the charts crazy!

 

But in the Termite way, Alex doesn't really die because there would be a little bit of Alex in all of them.

[RainOnToosdays]

I don't remember exactly when but they did show a close up of Alex' head on the table which showed a bullet wound in the forehead. 

[CarpeDiem54]

On rewatch - did anyone else notice that when Carol left the herd to approach the fence for her sharpshooter-bottle-rocket attack that there was a walker hung up on one of Morgan's zombie-catcher stick things in the background?

[GodsBeloved]

They (and we) have no idea how the virus works, really, so they can't know how to stop people from turning.  Or do they???  Why wouldn't bits and pieces of dead people "turn"?  Even if they're harmless bits and pieces, they'd still be wiggling around or whatever, right?  We've seen dismembered pieces of walkers twitching and jerking before; why wouldn't dismembered pieces in a stew do the same?  Crispy Walkers don't die, so cooking them can't be the thing to keep them dead.  I imagine the bloodletting may help, but I don't understand how, because slitting someone's throat isn't going to drain ALL of their blood.   

I don't recall seeing body parts removed from the head twitching. We saw Herschel's dismembered head moving around but not his body. We know you kill a walker by stabbing/shooting them in the brain.

 

 If the Termites killed the people and removed their heads, I think that would explain things.

 

ETA: What RainOnToosDay said.

Edited October 14, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[kikismom]

 

I think that's another interesting aspect of the morality issue - not just "is aggressive act ____ acceptable?", but is "passive act ____ acceptable?". 

Since the show began, that has been one of my major dilemmas; the sins of commission vs sins of omission. It comes up a lot in the comparison of certain characters deeds: It's bad when you pull the trigger, but if you just leave someone when you are their difference between life and death it's acceptable, or not as bad? It is a hard one for me.

 

The Termites could have been more humane by conking their victims on the head when they were "out" because of the gas. At least, I assume the gas put them out. But it does seem like they were going for the most terror possible. Way to emulate your tormenters, Termites! :/

I would suggest that the guys who do the gas-and-drag are flunkies; Gareth is Director of Human Resources (snicker) and they know that in some case he wants to ask the captives questions as he did with Rick. They might have started originally by direct hit and drag until one day they discovered they should have interrogated someone and now they just make them controllable till the boss shows up.

Just like not opening the train car door---I would bet a procedure was finessed after a few mistakes were made.

[lulee]

On rewatch - did anyone else notice that when Carol left the herd to approach the fence for her sharpshooter-bottle-rocket attack that there was a walker hung up on one of Morgan's zombie-catcher stick things in the background?

I noticed it on rewatch - the first time I thought -- ack! there's a walker right by her! but then the second time I saw that the walker was impaled and no threat.

[ghoulina]

I think Carol and Rick won't have any problem getting back to business as usual. I don't think Rick ever wanted to banish her in the first place. He had had a pretty bad beating given him by Tyrese. The Tyrese who doesn't want to hurt anyone, and who doesn't think Rick did it, beats Rick up. Rick basically makes a case to Carol that he doesn't want her to be ripped up by a vengeful Tyrese. It's with heavy heart that he provisions her and gives her a car that is long enough to camp in. He adds that he doesn't think she should have made that call and also adds that he can't have her around his kids, but I think he hasn't had time to think it through.

 

I agree. He kept looking in the rearview as he drove back to the prison. I half expected him to turn around. And he was very concerned to get Maggie's approval on the issue. Yes, he was wary as to whether he could trust her anymore or not, but I do think a lot of it was what would happen with Tyrese. And not just Tyrese, but the fall out of him finding out. He might go after Carol, or insist she's banished. Daryl would come to her defense. Sasha would side with Tyrese. The group could have become horribly fractured. 

 

But now, after all that they've been through - the fall of the prison, barely surviving on the road, not knowing who was alive and who wasn't - I think even if she hadn't blow up Terminus, they'd all be at a point to forgive and move on. Heck, even Tyrese told her that he forgave her - so why wouldn't the others?

 

Tyrese stated last season that his reason for not killing walkers at the fence was because it was different from when they were out in the wild defending themselves from direct horror, so killing the walkers, then bursting in and punching gum chomper are actually two things he has done recently.

 

But remember, when he got back from the run to the Big Spot he told Karen he didn't like killing that way either? Tyese seems very averse and resigned to having to kill anything - walkers, humans, etc. I almost think he's afraid to "unleash the beast", so to speak. 

 

And all they had done to Alex at that point, it seemed, was cut his leg off.  The close up of his face didn't appear to show any head wounds.  Rick even said "Let him turn", because it's inevitable.

 

Alex was shot in the head. He was taken out by a sniper in "A". Rick had taken him hostage, so the Termites relieved him of that duty. Also, when Rick said, "Let THEM turn", he was referring to the two butchers he had just stabbed with his wooden shank.  

[40Love]

But in the Termite way, Alex doesn't really die because there would be a little bit of Alex in all of them.

 

LOL!... and ewwwww! 

[NoWillToResist]

 

Although her confrontation with Mary made me a little wary.  I don't know why but the "You're not here, neither am I." it felt like a bit of foreshadowing to me.  I hope it's not.

 

I too hope it isn't foreshadowing. I took it to mean: “you’re not here” (i.e. I’m about to sic some walkers to munch on you) and “I’m not here” (I’m invisible to them, and I’m outta here!)

 

 

that would have been the cruelest thing ever if the Termite had killed Judith, after Carol had psyched Rick up to be reunited with her

 

I don’t think she gave him a heads-up, considering that Rick didn’t enter the screen RUNNING.  In Carol’s place, I also wouldn’t have told him until the child was in sight because who knows whether Tyreese and Judith would have been able to stay where she left them?

 

 

I mean really, Glenn?  These people had you bent over a trough ready to slit your throat for food.

 

I understood the redshirts just kneeling down and taking it but I was really expecting more of a struggle from our gang. Did Glenn really plan on making it easy for them? Kneel docilely while you wait for the bat? No swerve, no duck, no rolling into their legs to knock them off balance? Really?

 

 

I know! Her expression was priceless. "The fuzzy man and the hat nerd are getting on my nerves."

 

Hee! :)

 

 

As much as I liked Carol this last episode, I think she will end up badly. She is really badass right now, but she also seems, to me, to be losing her humanity. Like she has convinced herself that she does what she has to do, which is true, but in order to do it she has made herself very cold.

 

I didn’t see a cold woman when she was reunited with the gang. Also, I think a cold, practical woman would not have faced Rick with such hesitation. She fucking saved their lives but she looked like she was worried that her methods would get her banished again (IMO). I think Carol can pack up her emotions to do some unpleasantness if that's what needs to be done, but she's not a cold, heartless shell.

 

 

way ahead of characters like Tyreese, who just now seems to be noticing he's in the middle of a ZA and people aren't as neighborly as they used to be.

 

I get the sense that Tyreese had a lot of violence in his past and he has been determined to have a fresh start. I think he’s been so anti-violence because he’s afraid of falling back into being someone he doesn’t want to be...

[Dobian]

Finally watched the season opener today.  The show that kicks ass and takes no prisoners is back!  Carol FTW!!! 

[SoSueMe]

I like the bond that Daryl and Carol have, but I don't want them to be romantic.  I am really glad that he didn't go there with Beth either (I don't miss her and wish she would stay away permanently).

 

If I had to pair people up I would put Daryl with Michonne and maybe down the road Carl with Beth (I am assuming they will find her).

I seem to remember an episode of TTD with Melissa McBride where she said that (at least in her mind) Darryl and Carol were a couple. At least back then that is how she was playing it.

 

My own opinion is that they would be great with each other. They have both suffered abuse (Carol from her husband, Darryl from his parents and Merle) and loss and in spite of it  have become leaders and seem to understand each other so well. And I love how their names rhyme, :)

[JackONeill]

I'm not sure if it pays to get too close with anyone in the world they are now.  But, obviously Daryl and Carol are close.  I don't know if they went ahead and consummated the relationship, if that would change the depth of their relationship.  So, I don't know what to say.

 

But I will say this: In retrospect, I find it odd that Daryl took the news that Rick had banished Carol so well.  (I mean, if they "loved" one another, you could see Daryl storming out of the prison to find Carol.)  So, does Daryl like Rick more than Carol?  (And remember when Rick told them about what the CDC guy had said, Carol wanted Daryl to "do something."  As in, take the reins from Rick.  Daryl demurred.

 

Then, what happens when Beth comes back?  (If she does.)  It seemed that she and Daryl were getting kind of . . . um, close.

[Iguessnot]

Daryl and Carol are naturally close. Beth is just a simple minded nitwit badgering us with her unicorn fairy tales. It was her fairy dust that allowed her no drinking butt to gulp down moonshine with no effects while redneck Daryl came under the influence.

[SoSueMe]

Daryl and Carol are naturally close. Beth is just a simple minded nitwit badgering us with her unicorn fairy tales. It was her fairy dust that allowed her no drinking butt to gulp down moonshine with no effects while redneck Daryl came under the influence.

And don't forget her heartfelt musical offerings.....

[ghoulina]

But I will say this: In retrospect, I find it odd that Daryl took the news that Rick had banished Carol so well.  (I mean, if they "loved" one another, you could see Daryl storming out of the prison to find Carol.)  So, does Daryl like Rick more than Carol?

 

I have seen several people say this, but I didn't see Daryl as taking the news well. He was yelling and getting up in Rick's face. Then they went to go get Tyrese, to tell him the truth.....and the Governor shot their home with a tank. So we never really got to see how Daryl would have handled it. It's possible he wanted to see how Tyrese felt first, see if he could broker some peace and bring her back. If not, he may have just gone with her...as he did with Merle. We don't really know, because things went to hell before that story got to be fully played out. 

[LilySilver]

I'm not sure if it pays to get too close with anyone in the world they are now.  But, obviously Daryl and Carol are close.  I don't know if they went ahead and consummated the relationship, if that would change the depth of their relationship.  So, I don't know what to say.

 

But I will say this: In retrospect, I find it odd that Daryl took the news that Rick had banished Carol so well.  (I mean, if they "loved" one another, you could see Daryl storming out of the prison to find Carol.)  So, does Daryl like Rick more than Carol?  (And remember when Rick told them about what the CDC guy had said, Carol wanted Daryl to "do something."  As in, take the reins from Rick.  Daryl demurred.

 

Then, what happens when Beth comes back?  (If she does.)  It seemed that she and Daryl were getting kind of . . . um, close.

Well, I think that speaks to what a horrible act it was that led Rick to "banish" her.  She killed one of their community members (we were supposed to understand that they had all settled into the prison community together for quite some time), BURNED THEM and left them to be discovered by their loved ones and friends. That is pretty bad.  I think Daryl's response to Rick's news was, "That's not Carol," or something like that.

 

So I do agree with those who felt this episode (and for that matter the act of euthanizing Lizzie) was redemptive for Carol.  She was so utterly badass in that horrific gown of guts.  (Nicely cleaned up by the time she came face to face with the fellas though!)  And this episode makes me wonder how much of Tyrese's supposed acceptance of Carol's actions has to do with his recognition that they all have some pretty awful stuff just below the surface, waiting to be exposed.

 

The pace is frenetic, to me, though.  I mean the action is great and well done.  But what these people have been through so quickly from the time Karen and David died through the fall of the prison, being separated, losing loved ones, being beaten, biting people's throats out in front of your child, being held captive by cannibals and watching them slit people's throats and bleed them out, almost being a victim, fighting their way out, reuniting with people with whom your last interactions were complicated to say the least.......

Whew.  I have had months (unfortunately) to process all of it.  How realistic is it that they can continue to function at all at this point?  I know some viewers hate the "talky" episodes, but won't they need to catch their breath a bit?

[Turtle]

Thanks for the reminders about Alex getting shot in the head.  But that was from their own sniper, not from the slaughter process, wasn't it?  (Obviously, I occasionally miss some details!)  But what about the guys they were hitting and slitting?  Are they then ALSO going to shoot them in the head before butchering them?  Or hope they have time to completely sever all the heads before the dead start turning?  It's quite possible I'm fixating on something that doesn't matter, though!  I just don't really understand how this virus works within the body, and I REALLY don't understand why you would eat people that you knew had the virus.  Even if you already have it, or assume you do, it seems like a stupid risk to take.  I mean, if I have a cold, I don't go around touching discarded tissues from other people with colds.  

Edited October 14, 2014 by Turtle

[nodorothyparker]

I'm still bitter that they withheld the Carol banishment reveal for two episodes so we could sit through the trials and travails of the Gov./Philip/Brian because it robbed it of all its immediacy and potential power.  Then Daryl had all of about two minutes to digest what Rick was telling him before the prison was attacked.  So it's impossible to really know how he might have handled it had there been time for it really sink in and deal with the Tyreese fallout.  Would he have stormed out to go look for her?  I think it's entirely possible.  But we'll never know because of the distraction of a character who should have been killed a half season earlier and his witless followers and their tank.

 

It amuses me sometimes to imagine that some of these characters, like Carol and Daryl, have been quietly hooking up offscreen for awhile and it's just not something anyone considers worth mentioning since they all have to live on top of each other the way they do.  Or maybe not.  But I've always found it a little odd that with this many healthy adults together that only Glenn and Maggie apparently ever feel any kind of desire or maybe just want to be held.  It's just sometimes fun to think about.

 

While I don't hate Beth, part of me sincerely wishes she'd be the character that just vanished never to be heard from again.  You know that has to occasionally happen in this world and the canvas is already cluttered with too many characters, most of whom are portrayed by better actors.

[ghoulina]

Thanks for the reminders about Alex getting shot in the head.  But that was from their own sniper, not from the slaughter process, wasn't it?  (Obviously, I occasionally miss some details!)  But what about the guys they were hitting and slitting?  Are they then ALSO going to shoot them in the head before butchering them?  Or hope they have time to completely sever all the heads before the dead start turning?

 

Would hitting them hard enough on the back of the head suffice? I really want to know.....because haven't we seen them take out walkers by hitting their head with a good amount of force? After all, that was enough to take down Shaun of the Dead zombies.

[RainOnToosdays]

I have seen several people say this, but I didn't see Daryl as taking the news well. He was yelling and getting up in Rick's face. Then they went to go get Tyrese, to tell him the truth.....and the Governor shot their home with a tank. So we never really got to see how Daryl would have handled it. ....

... We don't really know, because things went to hell before that story got to be fully played out. 

Thankyou. I wasn't 100% sure but was pretty sure there was almost no time between Rick telling him and everything going to hell. He didn't have time to even process the news let alone decide what he wanted to do about it. If I recall correctly the only other person Rick told was Maggie. And I think Herschel, but he's dead so that doesn't matter now. Noone else knows what Rick did to her. And In watching the reruns this weekend, I noticed that when Carol first reunited with Tyrese and the girls and he asked her something like "where were you?" she did not rat Rick out, she simply said he went back to camp and she stayed to keep looking for things. I loved that. 

[Iguessnot]

And don't forget her heartfelt musical offerings.....

 

Oh God, I was just watching some season 3 episodes I missed and was graced with that prison cell serenade.  So very awkward.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Iguessnot

[mandolin]

I saw this online a bit ago. I wonder if it was a tribute/Easter egg.

http://www.twdenthusiasts.com/2014/10/was-zombie-andrea-featured-on-no-sanctuary/