Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Advance35]

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I'm pretty sure that originally people called Queen Sansa the Little Black Dress because no matter who her scene/storyline partner is, she helps elevate them thanks to Sophie Turner's magnetic chemistry: Joffrey, Cersei, Sandor, Shae, Tyrion, Margaery, Ramsay, Theon, Jon, Littlefinger...

I've seen it on the boards before and when I used it in this thread I definitely mean't it as a compliment (I hope that came through). 

Did anyone notice LF called Sansa "My love" when she was walking away from him.  I think I may believe him.  As much as he is capable, I think he might actually love Sansa.  His version of love should probably be classified as obsession but it's an interaction I like watching in a repellant/intriguing way.  I think he's like Jaimie in that he will/would happily destroy any and everyone until he and Sansa are the only people left.  

The more I think about it, the more I think it's going to be Sansa trying to use Littlefinger for her advancement, not necessarily AGAINST Jon but maybe separate from Jon if that makes any sense.

[CofCinci]

On June 26, 2016 at 0:15 AM, Chris24601 said:

My hunch is that Sandor's actual role in the books will be to die protecting Sansa from the Mountain... probably killing his brother (likely by burning him and overcoming his fear of fire when it truly counts) and then dying in Sansa's arms after his heroic sacrifice. However, given the much greater focus on Arya and the Hound on the show, I would not be surprised if the show changed this to Sandor dying to defend Arya instead since he was never going to be Sansa's endgame anyway.

Yes. I agree. Further, before he dies, he asks her to sing for him.  Stock up on tissue at Costco!  

[Mathius]

On one of the 6x09 threads, there was a quote that really rubbed me the wrong way concerning Sansa and Jon:

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if Sansa wants trust, she needs to give it. 

I'm sorry, but Sansa has given trust to people for five successive seasons.  And just about every single time, it blows up in her face, because the people she's giving her trust to fail to deliver at best and outright betray her at worst.  You can debate how right or rational it is for her to distrust Jon, but it is absolutely valid that she'd now have a hard time trusting people.  Honestly, I agree with Sophie Turner and Kit Harrington...it's more on Jon to prove her wrong and that she can trust him, and he just hasn't been doing that, either brushing her feelings and input aside during battle planning, or when he does listen to her, refuse to actually follow through with that listening (he certainly listens when she tells him not to let Ramsay use Rickon's death to play him....and then he lets Ramsay use Rickon's death to play him.)  As Sophie says, she trusts Jon to be good, but not to be competent in certain aspects of the game that he needs to be if the Stark family is going to survive. 

Jon was betrayed by Olly and a few others.  Sansa was betrayed by virtually everyone she's been in contact with in some way or other for years (Joffrey, Cersei, the Tyrells, Shae, Lysa, Littlefinger, Theon, even Brienne to a degree given that she abandoned her post that one time to go kill Stannis), with the exceptions of Tyrion and Sandor.  Jon is in a better position for "if you want trust, then give it" to apply to him, not Sansa.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Mathius

[bluvelvet]

I agree that there will be conflict between Jon and Sansa next season because *reasons*...even though if Sansa really feels that Winterfell is hers by right, all she has to do is tell Jon and I am sure he would hand it over.  Jon started out with Sansa as Lady of Winterfell, hence his comment about preparing the Lords chamber etc and her reaction implied he should have that title. If she changed her mind after the KITN scene, she just has to ask. I don't see show Jon having any ambitions to be KITN or Lord of Winterfell, he looked shocked.

[Umbelina]

I don't know if it was misdirection by the writers, simply bad writing, or bad acting, but since they have ALL said what the intent was in interviews?  I have to believe them.  This is not something like Jon being dead, which he was, but as a courtesy to GRRM, who was, I believe, frantically still trying to finish before filming began, sort of true.  He was dead, he was resurrected.

When Jon, Sansa, and the writers tell us how Sansa really feels, I think we need to believe them.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

I agree that there will be conflict between Jon and Sansa next season because *reasons*...even though if Sansa really feels that Winterfell is hers by right, all she has to do is tell Jon and I am sure he would hand it over.  Jon started out with Sansa as Lady of Winterfell, hence his comment about preparing the Lords chamber etc and her reaction implied he should have that title. If she changed her mind after the KITN scene, she just has to ask. I don't see show Jon having any ambitions to be KITN or Lord of Winterfell, he looked shocked.

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm not sure Jon even cares much about being the Lord of Winterfell or King in the North or whatever. He's more concerned that there's a big giant zombie army coming to kill everyone and someone needs to lead them. In fact Sansa and Jon have both been "You take it, no YOU take it" in regards to Winterfell, or "Winterfell is ours" -- Sansa said that it belongs to all of them, their siblings, whichever ones are alive. And she straight up said that anyone who trusts Littlefinger is a fool. And now she's...going to listen to Littlefinger and be all manipulative behind Jon's back? Ugh, that would be like the worst character development ever. It makes no sense given what we've seen on the show.

But since Sansa's motivation and actions have generated a LOT of discussion, maybe the most for any character at the end of season 6, I would imagine the writers were successful in their intent.

[Umbelina]

I think Sansa is only generating discussion because the writers and actors said one thing while what we've seen on screen for two episodes is something different.

Otherwise, the discussion would all be "oooo, how cool, to see Starks back together at Winterfell, getting along and sharing memories of dead dead daddy."

OR, Will Jon marry Sansa or Dany?

[OhOkayWhat]

As I said before, actors says a lot of things on how they see their characters and their future plots, but not even them know the scripts yet.

On the other hand, the writers said something like: Sansa feels a bit of anger and jealousy. "A bit" in this case are a couple of important words because tied with the context of the plot makes sense as narrative.

In fact if we see again the King in the North scene, I think we can see that she actually is happy for Jon, she loves him and he is her family. But when Manderly said Jon avenged the Red Wedding, her face change, and she looks uncomfortable, I think that little change is the "a bit of anger a jealousy". that Littlefinger will try to amplify in the next season.

Some seconds later, she is smiling and happy again, even when she is not looking at Jon, and she is genuine, only to look worried after looking in the eyes at Littlefinger.

In brief, the writers said something that we also can see on the screen.

Edited June 30, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Oscirus]

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Sansa might have the ambition to be queen, but she doesn't have the capability. It's not about a title and a fancy dress - it's a tremendous responsibility. One that she has never had to shoulder. She has always had others to try to take care of her, but when you're in charge your responsibility is to those you command (and not the other way around).

We don't know what she has yet because she hasn't ever had to show it. Look at Tyrion, he definitely didn't have the qualification to be hand of the king. Before he was given that job he was basically a plumber that got drunk , whored a lot and read many books. Hardly the stuff of a great leader. Dany was basically a vagina that her brother was trying to use to get his throne back.  Yet, look where they're at now.

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For all that she'd been around royals and nobility, she has a very limited view over what makes a ruler. She's seen Joffrey's selfishness, Cerci's powerlust and Ramsey's cruelty. She's never seen a leader who actually gives a damn about his or her people

Her father was Ned. She's had plenty of exposure to such a leader.

I can't help but go back to the fact that they keep going back to Sansa being true born. I felt that scene on the bridge was Sansa protesting too much. That scene at the end where she gets ignored for her contribution, what I saw was a "smile." Not a happy for you smile, but an "I'll be polite and smile because it's expected of me" smile. I don't think she's made a decision and she's probably leaning towards being Jon's number two.  But she's thinking about LF's offer.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Oscirus

[Advance35]

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I can't help but go back to the fact that they keep going back to Sansa being true born. I felt that scene on the bridge was Sansa protestingtoo much. That scene at the end where she gets ignored for her contribution, what I saw was a "smile." Not a happy for you smile, but an "I'll be polite and smile because it's expected of me" smile. I don't think she's made a decision and she's probably leaning towards being Jon's number two.  But she's thinking about LF's offer.

But even as the number 2, that only buys her time doesn't it?  Eventually Jon would likely marry and then Sansa is out on her ear. 

Maybe after everything she's been through she can't help but always be conscious of her political value or lack there of.   She doesn't like or trust Littlefinger but she realizes she may have to "work with" an enemy.   He is the reason they won back Winterfell.  That's a fact, a sad fact but one all the same.   I don't think this is going to take up too much story or screentime but I can understand why Sansa may be disquieted by the way things shook out.

[Maximum Taco]

38 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

But even as the number 2, that only buys her time doesn't it?  Eventually Jon would likely marry and then Sansa is out on her ear. 

Maybe after everything she's been through she can't help but always be conscious of her political value or lack there of.   She doesn't like or trust Littlefinger but she realizes she may have to "work with" an enemy.   He is the reason they won back Winterfell.  That's a fact, a sad fact but one all the same.   I don't think this is going to take up too much story or screentime but I can understand why Sansa may be disquieted by the way things shook out.

Honestly I don't think that Sansa, deep down, wants the lordship or the crown. She does want to be acknowledged by Jon (and the rest of the Northerners) for her contributions, and listened to and respected. She definitely feels snubbed, but I think it's more of a "Hey, I helped too here. Little credit? Anybody?"

But logically Jon in power is only good for Sansa. He's never going to turn her away, or put her into the cold to solidify his claim. And once he marries and has a child there will be no more suitors lusting after her for her claim to Winterfell and Jon, who she does trust to do the good and decent thing, will be the one with official power over any requests for her hand. He'd never sell her to someone she disapproves of, not after her ordeal with Ramsay.

I can't help but feel this all could've been sorted by a frank and honest conversation between Sansa and Jon. But of course Jon is too thickskulled to see that there is even a problem, and Littlefinger is going to use that to try and drive a wedge between them.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Advance35]

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But logically Jon in power is only good for Sansa. He's never going to turn her away, or put her into the cold to solidify his claim. And once he marries and has a child there will be no more suitors lusting after her for her claim to Winterfell and Jon, who she does trust to do the good and decent thing, will be the one with official power over any requests for her hand. He'd never sell her to someone she disapproves of, not after her ordeal with Ramsay.

I'm not so sure.  This saga has shown that inter-marriage can also operate as a guided missile attack.   Cersei started the dominoes rolling on the doom of House Baratheon.   The Tyrells were plotting to subplant House Lannister before Cersei went to defcon 1000.   And in this way, Sansa could believably feel vulnerable.

Now I don't KNOW that Sansa's thinking this way because the show (as of yet) hasn't articulated such but if the Bolton's weren't the Boltons, wasn't Sansa supposed to slither her way between the family?  "Take this Ramsay, and make him your own". Were her instructions.   She lacked the experience and know how to do it (not to mention Ramsay was crazy on a level WAY above her pay grade) but she's heard to that tack of infiltration before hasn't she.   She and Margaery were plotting to circumvent Cersei and get Joffrey to agree to allow Margaery to grant Sansa passage to Highgarden.   It all goes back to Sansa not trusting anyone.   I don't think Jon would be hard to manipulate once your in with him.   If a more mercenary type was made Lady of Winterfell through  marriage, one could envision whomever she is turning Jon to her school of thought in terms of bartering a marriage that's politically advantageous and leaving Sansa's happiness as a lesser concern.  

Not saying that this is what Sansa was thinking this episode, but there is real food for thought that LF could throw at Sansa that she would be wise to consider.

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I can't help but feel this all could've been sorted by a frank and honest conversation between Sansa and Jon. But of course Jon is too thickskulled to see that there is even a problem, and Littlefinger is going to use that to try and drive a wedge between them.

This is a definite.  Do you think Sansa is instinctively oblique now.  I wonder if she'll ever put all her cards on the table with anyone.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Advance35

[Portia4844]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Sansa is only generating discussion because the writers and actors said one thing while what we've seen on screen for two episodes is something different.

 

This is how it seems to me as well.  It's much like being told Jamie didn't rape Cersei when it appeared she was resisting the entire time.   Sansa's storyline, for me, has been confusing for quite some time based on what was shown and how D&D and Sophie described it.   Pages of discussion on what she is thinking/feeling and speculating on her motivation or justification appears to reflect viewers trying to make sense of it all.  

I'd rather not have numerous episodes of conflict between Sansa and Jon as it comes off as contrived.  We were shown Jon treating Sansa with love and respect when he found out that she didn't tell him about contacting LF and addressing the issue of trust and enemies.  We were shown Jon giving her the opportunity to share what she wanted.  I have no problem with the implication she has trust issues which led to not telling him about LF or about her desire for a specific position in the North/Winterfell.  However, I'm not sure how that (and other situations)  shows Jon as not caring or listening or Jon disregarding her right/desire to be the Queen of the North or whatever it is she wants.   

[Luckylyn]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

I can't help but feel this all could've been sorted by a frank and honest conversation between Sansa and Jon. But of course Jon is too thickskulled to see that there is even a problem, and Littlefinger is going to use that to try and drive a wedge between them.

Jon did try talk to Sansa about it during the whole who gets the Lord's bedroom scene.   Jon reassured her that the bedroom and Winterfell was hers, and she said it belonged to all them as a unit.  Sansa tried to apologize for not telling Jon about the Vale army coming, and Jon responded by telling her they had to trust each other.  He's aware that division between them is possible and needs to be avoided.  It's up to Sansa now to speak up about any concerns she has.  At this point, Jon trusts Sansa, and Sansa trusts no one.  I don't see Sansa working with Littlefinger against Jon after Littlefinger handed her over to Ramsey.  I could see Sansa playing some political games to benefit herself because she trusts no one except herself to protect her now and that having unexpected negative consequences for Jon or even Bran who she doesn't know for certain is alive.  This is Sansa's issue for understandable reasons.  Jon has given her honesty and protection.  I don't know if there's anything else he could do to win her absolute trust after what she has been through.  I do think Littlefinger needs to stop underestimating her. 

[Maximum Taco]

3 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Jon did try talk to Sansa about it during the whole who gets the Lord's bedroom scene.   Jon reassured her that the bedroom and Winterfell was hers, and she said it belonged to all them as a unit.  Sansa tried to apologize for not telling Jon about the Vale army coming, and Jon responded by telling her they had to trust each other.  He's aware that division between them is possible and needs to be avoided.  It's up to Sansa now to speak up about any concerns she has.  At this point, Jon trusts Sansa, and Sansa trusts no one.  I don't see Sansa working with Littlefinger against Jon after Littlefinger handed her over to Ramsey.  I could see Sansa playing some political games to benefit herself because she trusts no one except herself to protect her now and that having unexpected negative consequences for Jon or even Bran who she doesn't know for certain is alive.  This is Sansa's issue for understandable reasons.  Jon has given her honesty and protection.  I don't know if there's anything else he could do to win her absolute trust after what she has been through.  I do think Littlefinger needs to stop underestimating her. 

I think he needs to be a little bit more reassuring.

Jon is taking Sansa at her word, because he's used to dealing with people who aren't very duplicitous. All the girls he's been involved with, romantically or otherwise, (Arya, Ygritte, Gilly) are very straightforward, they say what they mean and they mean what they say.

Sansa is so much more Southern in her mentality, she doesn't say what she means all the time, because in the past that's caused her pain and trouble ("Maybe my brother will bring me your head") and she has trouble taking Jon at his word, because she has trouble taking anyone at their word. That's why when he's pushing her as Lady of Winterfell in private, but then accepts the crown later that day with just a look to her it has to feel jarring if nothing else. They went from being a unit, to him being the King. What's she supposed to say in that moment when everyone is hailing him as their King? It's on him to include her.

I don't think it's enough to have the one conversation and be like "Oh you said it was ok for me to take the Lord's chamber, so it must be cool for me to become King right?"

[Luckylyn]

Jon didn't ask to be King.  It was basically handed to him and he was shocked.  So was Sansa.  How they both manage this unexpected turn will set them on a certain course for good or for ill.  Jon is not ambitious for his own sake but for the protection of the people around him.  His priority is defeating the White Walkers.  What is Sansa's priority?  Is holding on the Winterfell all that matters to her?  Patriarchy can be so unfair.  Jon gets acknowledged for his efforts, but Sansa gets a private thank you from Jon but no credit by the other lords.  It can be argued that Littlefinger was also snubbed and also Lady Bear clearly has the respect of the Lords so maybe it isn't just sexism.  Sansa is on a path to work subtlety behind the scenes rather than directly probably because she trusts no one and also that's the sort of environment that she's been exposed to during her time at King's Landing.  When you use subterfuge, you aren't going to get credit for your contributions.  Jon is more direct and what he's accomplished was done publicly.  Their different methods could help make them a good team or lead to conflict.  Sansa has been the pawn for others for a very long time and is rightly sick of it.   She needs to decide if she's going to quietly be a power behind Jon or if she's going to have a more public vocal role in what comes next.  Could she carve out a position for herself similar to Lady Bear since Jon is focused on matters beyond Winterfell?  

[Minneapple]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Sansa is only generating discussion because the writers and actors said one thing while what we've seen on screen for two episodes is something different.

Otherwise, the discussion would all be "oooo, how cool, to see Starks back together at Winterfell, getting along and sharing memories of dead dead daddy."

OR, Will Jon marry Sansa or Dany?

A lot of discussion was generated over that King in the North scene with Sansa's Look at Littlefinger. The interviews have thrown fuel on the fire.

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

But logically Jon in power is only good for Sansa. He's never going to turn her away, or put her into the cold to solidify his claim. And once he marries and has a child there will be no more suitors lusting after her for her claim to Winterfell and Jon, who she does trust to do the good and decent thing, will be the one with official power over any requests for her hand. He'd never sell her to someone she disapproves of, not after her ordeal with Ramsay.

Let's not forget the alternative, that Jon has to marry Sansa to secure his own rule.

Jon's kingship is largely based on the presumption that he is Ned's biological son. His authority could be greatly compromised if it is revealed that his claim is through Lyanna while trueborns of Ned Stark still live (that way lies civil war in a generation or so) and , even more, that he is actually Rhaegar's son (i.e. the guy who started the whole mess that got most of the Stark family killed less than 20 years ago).

In short it could be a real mess at a time when stability is greatly needed. But just as the revelation would cause strife, it also opens up an opportunity to correct it that wasn't there before either.

Right now Jon/Sansa as King/Queen in the North is an either/or proposition because everyone believes they're siblings (i.e. you can have King Jon OR Queen Sansa, but not both). Them being revealed as cousins changes it to a both/and proposition (King Jon AND Queen Sansa) that also wipes out the issues with Jon as King.

He can maintain authority as husband of the Lady of Winterfell (I find some irony that Jon/Sansa could undercut the likes of Littlefinger by using Baelish's own tactic against him) and end any future strife between descendants by ensuring that the children of Jon (the king) and Sansa (the trueborn heir) are one and the same. Sansa is also valuable to Jon in a political sense because of her family ties to both the Vale (ruled by her cousin) and the Riverlands (Edmure is her uncle and his son would be her cousin... provided he can regain control of the Riverlands) which both border the North.

By the same token, as Dany's nephew (and likely heir if she has no children of her own), Jon becomes a good political match for Queen Sansa because it brings the North into Dany's alliance via marriage instead of conquest (with her own children being high in the line of succession for the Iron Throne itself). On a more personal level, Jon is by far the most likely prospective husband to regard her more as a partner than as just a baby-factory.

[Hana Chan]

If the Northern Lords were willing to overlook Jon's illegitimacy, Jon's bloodline flowing from his mother's side rather than his father's will likely not be an issue. They seemed determined to follow him for reasons of merit as much as bloodlines (which was always going to be a dubious proposition). And if anything, this will confirm him having Stark blood because it's never 100% possible (without DNA checks) to figure out who Daddy is. But Mom is usually fairly easy to suss out. There's a reason why quite a few cultures (Celts and Jews for example) determine linage via the maternal line.

Regardless, a marriage between Sansa and Jon would make sense for a number of practical reasons. First, it would cement Jon's claim to the titles and give Sansa her own status as Queen/Lady (which she has always wanted in some way). Jon would never mistreat her and he would take her council, which is far more than she might expect from any other nobleman she might marry. He would also provide protection in a way that holding a title independently never could (because unless a woman is strong enough to hold her position, or has followers that are undyingly loyal the way Lady Mormont has, her position would always be precarious). And it would cement north and south (if Dany names Jon as her heir).

They'd be first cousins, but that for most is a distant enough relationship for marriage (and for Targs that's practically a perfect stranger). The fact that they were raised together probably wouldn't be as big an issue for Sansa as she had never seen nor treated Jon as a true brother (and apologised for having not done so). They didn't have a tight sibling bond the way Jon and Arya did. If anything, Jon might have a bit more trouble dealing with a shift in their relationship like that because while Sansa might never seen Jon as her brother, he did see her as his sister. It might take him a bit of mental juggling to warm to the idea, but he does have a thing for redheads...

Hopefully the drama between them will be short-lived and that Sansa recognizes that the last person in the universe she should be taking advice from is a man who gave her to a rapist. 

[sunflower]

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the alternative, that Jon has to marry Sansa to secure his own rule.

This seems to be the most obvious solution to any current/upcoming strife between the two, per the excellent reasons stated above.  I'm really trying to figure out GRRM's endgame for Sansa.  She's in the Vale with LF so I assume Knights of the Vale do help Jon, but Sansa just isn't at Castle Black because she doesn't have the Jeyne storyline.  So they meet up, live at Winterfell, Jon becomes King, political maneuvers from LF and maybe Sansas, they find out they're cousins through Bran, and then get married because cousins get married all the time in this world.  What about Tyrion, can Jon as King put that marriage aside as in the books, it's more difficult then just saying, "hey, we never had sex,doesn't count?  Doesn't the High Septon had to put the marriage aside?  

I'm  going through this because if Sansa and Jon don't marry, I think Sansa is going to die soon due to some machination coming from her and LF.  Also, if Jon marries some else, what is her role?  What is her role now?  I think that's why they have to marry, there isn't enough time, and as others have said, DandD probably want us to be comfortable with them as a couple, so let's have them in scenes together as soon as possible, Castle Black, etc.  

Edited June 30, 2016 by sunflower

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

If the Northern Lords were willing to overlook Jon's illegitimacy, Jon's bloodline flowing from his mother's side rather than his father's will likely not be an issue. They seemed determined to follow him for reasons of merit as much as bloodlines (which was always going to be a dubious proposition). And if anything, this will confirm him having Stark blood because it's never 100% possible (without DNA checks) to figure out who Daddy is. But Mom is usually fairly easy to suss out. There's a reason why quite a few cultures (Celts and Jews for example) determine linage via the maternal line.

Regardless, a marriage between Sansa and Jon would make sense for a number of practical reasons. First, it would cement Jon's claim to the titles and give Sansa her own status as Queen/Lady (which she has always wanted in some way). Jon would never mistreat her and he would take her council, which is far more than she might expect from any other nobleman she might marry. He would also provide protection in a way that holding a title independently never could (because unless a woman is strong enough to hold her position, or has followers that are undyingly loyal the way Lady Mormont has, her position would always be precarious). And it would cement north and south (if Dany names Jon as her heir).

They'd be first cousins, but that for most is a distant enough relationship for marriage (and for Targs that's practically a perfect stranger). The fact that they were raised together probably wouldn't be as big an issue for Sansa as she had never seen nor treated Jon as a true brother (and apologised for having not done so). They didn't have a tight sibling bond the way Jon and Arya did. If anything, Jon might have a bit more trouble dealing with a shift in their relationship like that because while Sansa might never seen Jon as her brother, he did see her as his sister. It might take him a bit of mental juggling to warm to the idea, but he does have a thing for redheads...

Hopefully the drama between them will be short-lived and that Sansa recognizes that the last person in the universe she should be taking advice from is a man who gave her to a rapist. 

Absolutely - TBH, I never saw what would make the assembled lords acclaim Sansa as Queen in the North. Lady Mormont is the exception in the Northern houses, not the rule, and only because the Mormonts have a tradition of female warriors (Maege, Dacy). We see how when they went to negotiate, Sansa completely miscalculated the approach, and it was left to kind old Uncle Davos to win her over. Not that I blame Sansa - her last few years haven't equipped her very well in dealing with people like Lyanna. To be honest, I didn't like Lyanna that much when she was being the Lady of Sick Burns with Sansa - poor Sansa has spend the last few years being valued only for her working uterus and virginity, and she managed to survive King's fucking Landing during the reign of King Justin Bieber (Honest Trailers calls him that and I love it). That's more than others managed, and she should really get some credit for it.

Re. the first cousins bit - wasn't Sansa supposed to marry Robin Arryn, but then his mother died before she could make it happen? That's another first cousin marriage - the only reason anyone was against it was that Robin's a kid and a weirdo, not because their mothers were sisters. It may seem wrong to us, but in Westeros it seems to be fine.

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Sansa recognizes that the last person in the universe she should be taking advice from is a man who gave her to a rapist. 

This, a million times. I'm full of hope because of two things - the dismissive way she says "a pretty picture", as in 'now who's living in a dream world, Lord Baelish?' and that way she stops him from kissing her. I've watched that scene a million times, it's so beautiful:

Petyr Baelish moves in for a kiss.

Sansa: HARD PASS.

Yes, she listens to him - because at this point he still thinks he has a chance, and he's going to let something important slip one day.

OT: Petyr Baelish is just that guy, right - the one who sees a woman wanting to be alone, doing something which doesn't involve him, and just has to interrupt, because what women do without men is not important. Blech.

Edited June 30, 2016 by arjumand

[Hecate7]

On 6/27/2016 at 2:47 PM, Eyes High said:

I rewatched the scene, too, and this is what I saw:

1. Lyanna Mormont stands up to speak and chides the Northern lords for refusing to answer the call: Sansa smiles.

2. Lyanna Mormont starts in on "We know no king": Sansa sort of looks down with a wry, "I fucking knew it"-type expression and stops smiling.

3. Manderly pledges his support to Jon Snow and praises Jon Snow for "avenging the Red Wedding": Sansa is not smiling and looks upset.

4. Glover pledges his support to Jon Snow: Sansa is not smiling.

5. The KITN shouts start up: Sansa is not smiling.

6. Jon looks to Sansa for reassurance: Sansa offers him a small smile.

7. The KITN shouts continue: Sansa continues to smile, but to me it's a glassy smile that, as GRRM would put it, doesn't reach her eyes.

8. Sansa looks over at Littlefinger's "Told you so" expression: Sansa drops the smile and looks upset.

My perception was that Sansa was happy to hear Lyanna praising the Starks until it became clear that she was going to be passed over in favour of Jon, and that her little smile was only to reassure Jon, as she didn't smile until Jon looked at her to see whether she would agree to being passed over. She did not look happy, and she looked caught out when LF was looking at her.

This is exactly what I saw, but I interpreted her reactions slightly differently. At 2 and 3, I think Sansa begins to remember the Red Wedding. She IS feeling slighted but worry for Jon overtakes her resentment--now she has TWO reasons to try to stop this ball from rolling. Then Glover pledges his support and she realizes it's too late to stop the momentum. She gives Jon the small smile--it's not HIS fault and she does want to reassure him. The shouts start up, and Sansa is proud of Jon but the smile doesn't reach her eyes not because she's jealous, but because she's afraid. She reflexively looks over at Littlefinger for help, and realizes that he can't be trusted. He is an enemy to Jon. She's afraid that he'll ask her to side with him against Jon--she's hoping he'll want to protect Jon instead, but she knows it's a long shot.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I think the stuff the actress said was straight out of her screen directions from the script, or what the director told her to play.

I don't think of "little black dress" as a compliment to the actress, at least not in the way I'm using it.  I think the writing is deliberately ambiguous and confusing because they want to take the character anywhere they please in the story, just like a little black dress, they've written her to fit into any story at all.  She could become Jon's biggest enemy or his wife at this point.  It's up to them, and us trying to figure it out is basically pointless because the scenes show anything we want, but at the same time, anything THEY may want from her in the future.

[sunflower]

Quote

She could become Jon's biggest enemy or his wife at this point.

Great point.  The show doesn't do subtle, they're not going to make a thing of something, Jon/Sansa, unless it's relevant, especially this late in the game.  So, either their "tension" leads to Sansa's downfall or they get married.  Maybe they're trying to hide the marriage by playing up the "she might destroy him" bit.  I don't know, outside of Jaime, Sansa/Jon are my favorite characters, I just hope they don't fuck them up.  

Edited June 30, 2016 by sunflower

[jjjmoss]

Well, that makes no sense in the context of how people actually use little black dresses. I've never heard of people using it as an insult - nor that said dress is confusing, ambiguous, pointless, and up to the viewer's interpretation.

Maybe you're confusing it with the Blue & Black (wrongly seen by some as the White & Gold) Dress.

[Umbelina]

It's not an insult or a compliment.  It's that Sansa IS the little black dress of this story because that's what the writers of the show have made her.

A little black dress fits in at any event, as Sansa can (because of the writing.)  She can betray Jon or marry Jon.  She can kill Littlefinger or team up with him.  She can die a heroine's death or a betrayer's death.  She fits into all of those scenarios because the writing is so completely contradictory and vague.  A little black dress fits in everywhere too, at the opera, or work, at a dinner party or school play, at a funeral or (these days) even at a wedding.  They can put Sansa anywhere and have her play any role in the story in the future and it will end up being logical.

• Oh, she was too damaged to ever really trust or recover!
• She lost her Stark qualities when she lost her wolf!
• She always just wanted to be at Winterfell after all, so she married Jon.
• She knew Winterfell belonged to her so she helped Jon's downfall.
• She was too innocent and played by Littlefinger, even after everything!
• She was too greedy and still wanted that crown so she...."

Her future could be anything at all, and that's the way the writers want it, so arguing about it is just pointless to me.  They've written her as a little black dress, whatever happens will be easily justified by all of this vague crap.  I, for example, think it's far more likely that she will take a dark turn, and they are trying to hide that a bit.  At the same time, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she marries Jon and lives happily ever after.  Either fits, just like the little black dress.

[jjjmoss]

Your point is simple and obvious. I disagree that the analogy makes sense, is all.

[Minneapple]

"Little black dress" is in no way an insult. It just means that a little black dress can be functional at any occasion, Sansa Stark can go anywhere and be anything. Look at this:

Quote

 

I rewatched the scene, too, and this is what I saw:

1. Lyanna Mormont stands up to speak and chides the Northern lords for refusing to answer the call: Sansa smiles.

2. Lyanna Mormont starts in on "We know no king": Sansa sort of looks down with a wry, "I fucking knew it"-type expression and stops smiling.

3. Manderly pledges his support to Jon Snow and praises Jon Snow for "avenging the Red Wedding": Sansa is not smiling and looks upset.

4. Glover pledges his support to Jon Snow: Sansa is not smiling.

5. The KITN shouts start up: Sansa is not smiling.

6. Jon looks to Sansa for reassurance: Sansa offers him a small smile.

7. The KITN shouts continue: Sansa continues to smile, but to me it's a glassy smile that, as GRRM would put it, doesn't reach her eyes.

8. Sansa looks over at Littlefinger's "Told you so" expression: Sansa drops the smile and looks upset.

 

Look at all of the interpretive and subjective words used. Sansa's last look at Littlefinger I interpreted as being like "oh, shit, he's planning something." I didn't see her smile glassy at all. I didn't think she looked upset at all. I didn't think she looked wry or like "I fucking knew it" at all. I thought she looked pleased that Jon is being named King in the North but worried about LF. So just as a little black dress could be functional for a funeral or a wedding, Sansa could be functional as a protagonist or a villain. 

Add in the fact that Sansa is linked to more of the great houses than pretty much any character, and she could go in any number of different directions next year. 

[jjjmoss]

Anyway...

Sansa is probably my favorite character on TV right now and I wish the Emmys would nominate Sophie Turner despite the category not being kind to actors as young as her. Personally I'd even give her the win.

[Umbelina]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-sophie-turner-906820

Quote

"I think Sansa could maybe develop a taste for killing," the 'Thrones' star tells THR.

Quote

 

In the scene, Sansa tells Jon that only a fool would trust Littlefinger. Later, she meets with Littlefinger and he paints this picture of himself on the Iron Throne, with Sansa at his side. She rejects him in the moment, but when Jon is crowned King in the North, Sansa and Littlefinger exchange a look. What is Sansa thinking about Littlefinger's pitch by the end of the episode?

As you say, she rejects him in the beginning, but there's definitely something in her that's … it's kind of a jealousy toward Jon. He's getting all of the credit for basically Sansa saving his ass. Obviously he played a huge part in the Battle of the Bastards, but Sansa really saved him. There's a bit of jealousy there. She looks at Littlefinger knowing that he would have put her as Queen in the North, and given her the credit she deserves. I don't think she's gunning for the Iron Throne anytime soon, but she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.

 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-sophie-turner-906820

That quote of Sophie's drives me crazy. What was Sansa apologizing to Jon for if it wasn't for acknowledging that things might have played out differently had she trusted him about the Vale troops? Maybe his ass wouldn't have even needed saving if she'd trusted him in the first place, who knows? She also isn't acknowleging that Jon did give her credit, just as he showed that he values her opinion in the scene where she was accusing him of treating her like a dumb girl whose opinions don't matter. I feel like these perceived slights from Jon are all in her mind. 

Meanwhile, Littlefinger isn't telling her what an awesome job she did. He's telling her that her blood is superior to Jon's in addition to making it clear that he'd like to marry her for her claim if he had his way. 

What makes Littlefinger a more trustworthy ally? The fact that he flatters her ego? It's ridiculous to me that Jon is earning Sansa's jealousy and resentment when all he's tried to do is help her and behave the way that he thinks she wants him to behave. Jon didn't make assumptions with Sansa. If Sansa had stepped up, Jon would have backed her 100%. Instead Sansa wants to penalize Jon for taking her at her word and for not being a mind reader. 

Jon risks his life for Sansa and she comes out of this experience thinking that Littlefinger is the trustworthy ally who appreciates her and doesn't cause her to feel jealous? Wow, that is disappointing. 

[Umbelina]

Which quote?  There are several disturbing quotes in that article.  I have a bit of trouble with the bloodlust stuff as well. Looks like those people commenting in the episode thread about her smile as Ramsay was eaten were not far off the mark.

Also, remember in the books Littlefinger

Spoiler

HAS kept her safe, he never gave her to Ramsay.  So the show may be trying to have it both ways, they get the rape the teenager, but also have book Sansa who would really have very little reason to doubt Littlefinger's loyalty and care for her.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Umbelina

[Luckylyn]

Sansa has more freedom and power working with Jon than she has had in years.   With him she is not just a pawn to be used.   She would be foolish to work against him when he has shown that he supports her.  He gave her credit for saving him in the Battle of the Bastards and made it clear he respected her place at Winterfell.  He has been honest and protective of her.  Betraying Jon would weaken Sansa's position and hurt her most powerful ally.  I don't see what could be gained by siding with Littlefinger who has shown he's willing to see her harmed if it benefits him. He allowed her to be framed for Joffery's murder which forced her to be dependent on him to escape Cersei's wrath than sold her to the Boltons knowing Ramsey was dangerous. 

If she has more ambitions beyond being Jon's support she should be honest with Jon about it.  He doesn't have ambition beyond doing what he thinks must be done to save everyone.  He wouldn't try to compete with her.  Jon wants to save everyone.  What does Sansa want?  Is she only after her own personal gain or does she share Jon's desire to fight the White Walkers?  She and Jon need to have a conversation about that. 

[Avaleigh]

Sorry, I meant the quote of yours in bold, Umbelina.

Even taking the trust part out of the equation for a moment, she makes it clear that she still wants more recognition for saving Jon's ass without acknowledging the reality that she got her ass saved too. What about Robin's recognition? Littlefinger's? Royce's? Is she troubled by them not getting enough credit? 

I think Jon has done everything he can to earn Sansa's trust so if she is going for Lady of Winterfell next season, I hope that she's honest with him about it.

[Lady S.]

I really don't think we should Sophie's word as authoritative about anything. S5 definitely went a lot differently than she expected after the last Sansa scene of s4, so a lot of this is her own opinion rather than being clued into the character's journey. She and Maisie have both said many questionable things about their respective characters. They are still teenagers.

[Oscirus]

Sansa's wants to be appreciated for her contributions. I think the easier way to explain it is that she wants to be appreciated for more then just her name or beauty. She desperately wants to be seen as an ally and Jon's basically making her feel like a little girl. She knows Jon will take care of her but she wants more then that, she wants to be acknowledged.

Ultimately, I don't think she'll get that recognition up North. They respect soldiers, she's not one nor will she ever be one.

That's where Littlefinger comes in. He's slimey, he sold her to a rapist and he's infatuated with her but at least (in her mind anyway) he appreciates what she brings to the table. 

[Luckylyn]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Ultimately, I don't think she'll get that recognition up North. They respect soldiers, she's not one nor will she ever be one.

That's where Littlefinger comes in. He's slimey, he sold her to a rapist and he's infatuated with her but at least (in her mind anyway) he appreciates what she brings to the table. 

Does he really appreciate Sansa for herself?  He seems to see her as a means to an end to gain power in the North and as an extension of her mother who rejected him.   He loves the idea he has of Sansa and what marrying her can gain him.  I don't think he sees her for herself.  He's shown a willingness to use her in ways that have hurt her deeply.  Jon would not use her and would respect her right to make decisions about her future for herself.  If Sansa wants respect in the North than she needs to find a way to put herself forward.   In Battle of the Bastards she gets angry at Jon for not asking her opinion, but he wasn't blocking her from speaking.  All she has to do is be direct and say what's on her mind the way that Jon's other advisors do.  They don't ask permission or wait for an invitation from Jon to contribute they just step in to say what they think is best.  That is what Sansa needs to do, speak candidly with Jon.  Jon would not screw her over for personal gain like Littlefinger would.  Jon told her they have to trust each other because of the enemies surrounding them.  Jon's elevation is also Sansa's depending on how she responds.  Hurting Jon by helping Littlefinger puts her at more risk than aiding Jon to stay strong would.  With Jon she's a person, with others she's an incubator and a key to holding the North.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Luckylyn

[Advance35]

Quote

I really don't think we should Sophie's word as authoritative about anything. S5 definitely went a lot differently than she expected after the last Sansa scene of s4, so a lot of this is her own opinion rather than being clued into the character's journey. She and Maisie have both said many questionable things about their respective characters. They are still teenagers.

Definitely this.  It certainly isn't the first interview of ST's that's made me raise my eyebrows.   I do think the scene was designed a certain way but I think it was shot counter to that.   I don't think conflict with Jon is the ending for the Sansa Stark character so I expect any petty jealousy will be just that, something she get's past or something that is dealt with early in the season.   I can't see conflict with Jon being a part of her book counter part's fate.

Quote

Add in the fact that Sansa is linked to more of the great houses than pretty much any character, and she could go in any number of different directions next year. 

This is an aspect of her character I really like.   Lannister, Tyrell, Greyjoy, Arryn, she's got a palatable connection to 4 of the Great Houses, (Baratheon and Martell are extinct) and Targaryen only has one survivor who hasn't hit Westeros yet.   I'm looking forward to where they take her from here.  And though Jon's been through a lot for most of his journey, he's been very clear on who his friends and who is foe's were.

For Sansa, some were friendly (Tyrion), some were outright enemies (Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin) some were foe's who pretended to be friends (Margaery, Olenna, Dontos) and she even had to dodge a murder attempt by a FAMILY member (Lyssa).   I still say it's not at all surprising that Sansa will never truly trust anyone.  Bastard or Highborn.

[jjjmoss]

I dunno if Dontos or Margaery were really her "foes." They may have been using her, but they didn't necessarily do anything against her. Or at least on the show Margaery didn't know about the poisoning of Joffrey in advance to be pinned on Sansa.

[Hana Chan]

Watching the last few episodes again, Sansa's behavior really is all over the place. When she was trying to coax Jon into fighting to take back Winterfell, she was very specific that it was he and his connection to Ned Stark (even as a bastard) that would rally the Northern Lords to their cause. And even afterward, she was very insistent about Jon taking his role as Lord of Winterfell (while he was setting her up in the Lord's bedchambers since he felt it was her rightful place). But now that this part of the job was done and Jon and the Northern Lords are turning their attention to the White Walker's issue, all it takes is Littlefinger whispering in Sansa's ear about how she should be Lady of Winterfell and Queen of the North and that if she sticks with him, he can make her Queen of Westeros to seed division between her and Jon.

This is why I just can't root for her in this and will start to see her in a negative light if it does bear out that she's sincere in her aspirations. With so much at stake, and with Jon recognizing that being KITN is not all about him, Sansa is just a foolish, easily manipulated roadblock to doing what needs to get done.

[SeanC]

33 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

When she was trying to coax Jon into fighting to take back Winterfell, she was very specific that it was he and his connection to Ned Stark (even as a bastard) that would rally the Northern Lords to their cause. And even afterward, she was very insistent about Jon taking his role as Lord of Winterfell (while he was setting her up in the Lord's bedchambers since he felt it was her rightful place).

But she also said in 605 that she had the Stark name, and never said anything about Jon being Lord of Winterfell in 610, merely that he should have the bedchamber.  And yeah, that's the sort of conversation that can be read as a metaphor for the lordship itself, but when Jon points out that "you're the Lady of Winterfell, you should have [the bedchamber]", she doesn't counter this.

Exactly what the two of the envision the political arrangements being has been left extremely vague all through this storyline, probably so the writers could make Jon being crowned a surprise.  But it has, as a result, left the characters' motivations looking very muddled.

[Advance35]

Quote

I dunno if Dontos or Margaery were really her "foes." They may have been using her, but they didn't necessarily do anything against her. Or at least on the show Margaery didn't know about the poisoning of Joffrey in advance to be pinned on Sansa.

I only mean't because The Tyrells were working with House Lannister in opposition to House Stark.  It didn't seem to get in the way while Sansa was in Kings Landing, but then again, Sansa was always civil to everyone in Kings Landing.  Two things that stood out to me were the Purple Wedding, when Margaery stood up and spoke to the guest and announced that the Kingdoms can rejoice now that the civil war had been brought to a "just" end.    And when Sansa was speaking to the Lords of the Vale (it was a con job but Sansa wove a lot of truth through it), Sansa said "I had know friends in Kings Landing."  I do admit this could be viewed subjectively.

[Umbelina]

After reading everything and thinking about it, I think Sansa is going to end up as a villain in this story.  It makes a better story, and GRRM likes to break things, so the mere fact that she's looking like an end game is a reason for her not to be one.

Will she have redemption as well?  Hard to say, but my general feeling is nope.  Although the show may give it to her since it's TV after all.

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Watching the last few episodes again, Sansa's behavior really is all over the place. When she was trying to coax Jon into fighting to take back Winterfell, she was very specific that it was he and his connection to Ned Stark (even as a bastard) that would rally the Northern Lords to their cause. And even afterward, she was very insistent about Jon taking his role as Lord of Winterfell (while he was setting her up in the Lord's bedchambers since he felt it was her rightful place). But now that this part of the job was done and Jon and the Northern Lords are turning their attention to the White Walker's issue, all it takes is Littlefinger whispering in Sansa's ear about how she should be Lady of Winterfell and Queen of the North and that if she sticks with him, he can make her Queen of Westeros to seed division between her and Jon.

She also went from saying "it's ours, and Arya's and Bran's and Rickon's, wherever they are" to not even telling the Blackfish about Rickon, Ned's true heir and the heir to Cat's claim on Riverrun too. Even though he was living on borrowed time, I'd think his life being in danger would make a better Family, Duty, Honor rallying cry than Sansa just wanting to reclaim Winterfell for herself. Brynden might not have left with Brienne either way but I think that would be a better reason for a guilt trip than reuniting with a great-niece who was already relatively safe.

[slf]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I only mean't because The Tyrells were working with House Lannister in opposition to House Stark.  It didn't seem to get in the way while Sansa was in Kings Landing, but then again, Sansa was always civil to everyone in Kings Landing.  Two things that stood out to me were the Purple Wedding, when Margaery stood up and spoke to the guest and announced that the Kingdoms can rejoice now that the civil war had been brought to a "just" end.    And when Sansa was speaking to the Lords of the Vale (it was a con job but Sansa wove a lot of truth through it), Sansa said "I had know friends in Kings Landing."  I do admit this could be viewed subjectively.

Alliances are tricky in that they aren't always held against you, such as when the Tyrells sided with Renly against the Lannisters but were then welcomed as allies. I'll spoiler tag this next bit since it's from the books (but refers to an event from the past and so isn't spoilery):

Spoiler

Tyrion points out to Cersei that if she offends the Tyrells she's also offending the Redwynes, the Tarlys, the Hightowers, and every other House in the Reach and in doing so might get the Tyrells to wondering if Robb Stark might be more accommodating of their desires. At an earlier point in the series, Catelyn sort of bemoans that Robb didn't marry Margaery Tyrell because the gold, food, and army of the Reach would have made all the difference in the world.

It's expect that alliance will be made during war so it has much more to do with what you did then necessarily who you sided with. Since the Tyrells only ever provided support to the Lannister military in defending KL they'd done nothing to alienate the North. (The Tyrells have really conserved their resources during the war.)

I think when Sansa said she had no friends in KL she meant it. Littlefinger told her that she was used to smuggle in the poison, on her necklace. So she likely believes Margaery was never truly interested in being her friend or marrying her to Loras (even though Margaery was).

[BitterApple]

Poor Sansa, having no idea she was only going to be a beard for pretty boy Loras. She really has gotten the short end of the stick at every turn, hasn't she?

[Advance35]

Quote

I think when Sansa said she had no friends in KL she meant it. Littlefinger told her that she was used to smuggle in the poison, on her necklace. So she likely believes Margaery was never truly interested in being her friend or marrying her to Loras (even though Margaery was).

Eh.  I'm not sure Margaery was ever interested in Sansa's genuine friendship.  Margaery seemed like a "Business is Business" kind of girl outside of her family.

I don't see Sansa becoming a full fledge villain only because I don't think GRRM will have time to write it in 2 books.   I don't even think you could conceivably come up with a route to take Sansa to that point in 2 books.   Especially when she is not even the "star" of the saga (though with the fandom speculation, media coverage and the like you would think Sansa's an A-List character).

I think she will at some point interact with both Tyrion and Theon again.   I also think she will meet Dany.  Outside of that, I'm not overly confident in which direction Sansa's story will go, which is something I appreciate.   I find a majority of the other top tier characters fairly predictable, so for me, Sansa's a very nice change of pace.

[SeanC]

I was looking at the HBO Viewer Guide on a lark, and the entry for House Stark as of the end of Season 6 lists Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and Jon as King in the North.  So...I guess she does have a title now?  Albeit an essentially meaningless one, since the king also lives at Winterfell.

[Paradigm14]

I agree with many that a lot of Season 6 was disjointed for Sansa. Her new talents barely came out, and her own reach was not fully exploited. I mean if she cared so much about saving their brother, why was there no rescue attempt arranged? 

I can understand her not saying anything about the Knights of the Vale because she had no proof that they were coming. Jon understood that since Littlefinger had given her to the Boltons, that she had no reason to trust him. She knew that his every move was always bolstered with some additional advantage to him more than concern for her.  So while she mighth have said something, it may have been seen in her eyes as likely as the Manderlys of the show magically appearing after providing no answer, even after the houses had been close. If she was such a good diplomat, why didn't she take a hunch with Robbett and tell him, look, that was Roose that helped you, not Ramsey. You  can't trust him because he's a nut. You heard about him flaying his own bannerman who were short on taxes. And then saying did the Starks ever do anything like that?

She also understands that Jon directly fought for Winterfell and behaved valiantly if stupidly. The North will preciate actions and courage more than scheming and diplomacy, even if that scheming won the day.

Now, if she really did want to be the Queen of the North, which I think she still will be if Jon ends up on the Iron Throne, or if he gives it up to her to fight the War for the Dawn, she had the option of running that meeting herself. All she had to do was stand and speak just like Lyanna Mornont did. All she had to do was say "When I arranged to take over Winterfell, I got, Jon, and the Wildlings, and House X, just flatter each one publicly, they all would have gone along, especially if Jon didn't fight it. He doesn't care too much about being Lord of Winterfell or King of anything, and she is the highest ranking lady until Jon marries, which could be fairly far down the road. It was never something he had any expectation to have, for any house at all either..

I don't buy that Jon was treating her like a little girl, but like someone who had been hurt and betrayed. He got that. He'd died from it.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Paradigm14

[bluvelvet]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

I was looking at the HBO Viewer Guide on a lark, and the entry for House Stark as of the end of Season 6 lists Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and Jon as King in the North.  So...I guess she does have a title now?  Albeit an essentially meaningless one, since the king also lives at Winterfell.

I had assumed that she was the de facto Lady of Wintefell since there isn't really any one else around to fill that role, but nice to have it confirmed.  I also don't see Jon taking on the duties that would normally fall to the Lady...

Edited July 3, 2016 by bluvelvet