Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

The people of Westeros are better off having a tree rule over them. At least they won't have to sit through 15 minutes of vanity titles every time they need to go and see him. 

It was Missandei who rolled through the whole list of titles, but she's dead.  Listen to Dany when she passes sentence on Varys, or Grey Worm on the Lannister soldiers; they only mentioned 1 or 2

[Indi]

16 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I hate that I had to sit through it. Ugh.

I will forever mourn that we didn't get to see what Olenna Tyrell REALLY thought about Daenaerys.  Or did we.  She told Jamie "Your brother and HIS new Queen."  Me thinks The Queen of Thorns wasn't sold on her either.

Oh, I think Olenna knew to some extent, what she was capable of and yes, she was very sold on the idea of destroying Cersei, no matter what. "Be a dragon" comes with devastating consequences. which she understood very well, but she didn't care. Her family had been wiped out and she only lived for vengeance.

Sansa might not have been as knowledgeable as Olenna, but she had been living with evil for too long, to be blind to what a ruler like that could mean for the North. I don't know if she suspected she'd turn into a bigger monster than Cersei, though.

[sistermagpie]

21 hours ago, Drogo said:

This is a strange analogy.  Did Daenerys show up to Sansa's home and "announce herself" as Sansa's new leader?  Or did the King of Sansa's country swear their allegiance to a larger force and she showed up as exactly that? 

Yes, by showing up with Jon having accepted his allegiance she is of course announcing herself as the new leader. The point isn't that Dany's being getting above herself in thinking she's their leader, it's that she is their leader. Like if Dad went away on a business trip and came back with a wife. The wife is actually the stepmother. Dad made her the stepmother. The kids will quite possibly resent her on sight as a stepmother despite Dad's part in it.

[Constantinople]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, by showing up with Jon having accepted his allegiance she is of course announcing herself as the new leader. The point isn't that Dany's being getting above herself in thinking she's their leader, it's that she is their leader. Like if Dad went away on a business trip and came back with a wife. The wife is actually the stepmother. Dad made her the stepmother. The kids will quite possibly resent her on sight as a stepmother despite Dad's part in it.

So you're saying Sansa acted like a child?

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

So you're saying Sansa acted like a child?

Sansa is Cinderella, throwing herself on the floor and refusing to accept her new stepmother... then acting superior when the Stepmother turns Evil some time later.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

So you're saying Sansa acted like a child?

Children fit the analogy because as children the stepmother would have authority over them and their lives. Sansa could be any person, child or adult, meeting a stranger who has just been given a lot of power and authority over her life unexpectedly and who she has no reason to trust in the position.

12 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Sansa is Cinderella, throwing herself on the floor and refusing to accept her new stepmother... then acting superior when the Stepmother turns Evil some time later.

She's Ella who refused to happily accept the level of authority the stepmother wanted (much less happily do chores for her) wanted and wasn't surprised when Stepmother turned evil some time later.

[Snowball II]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Sansa is Cinderella, throwing herself on the floor and refusing to accept her new stepmother... then acting superior when the Stepmother turns Evil some time later.

What?  Cinderella was abused and enslaved, by her stepmother.  I don't get this analogy.

[Drogo]

34 minutes ago, Fiver said:

What?  Cinderella was abused and enslaved, by her stepmother.  I don't get this analogy.

This was in response to someone saying Sansa is like a child that won't accept her new stepmother. 

[Advance35]

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Children fit the analogy because as children the stepmother would have authority over them and their lives. Sansa could be any person, child or adult, meeting a stranger who has just been given a lot of power and authority over her life unexpectedly and who she has no reason to trust in the position.

I think this perfectly describes Sansa's feelings over the season.  It was the unceremonious granting of power and authority that prevented Sansa from taking too Dany.  When Jon left, Sansa was second banana to Jon, I don't think she was OVERLY thrilled about it but it was something she could/would have lived with (hence her defending Jon to the complaining Lords in Season 7).

Some have said that Sansa should have been nice to Dany and I still don't understand why. Dany was never going to grant the North Independence.  Outside of toeing the line, publicly, there was nothing to Sansa's benefit in being nice to Daenaerys.  If Sansa was brushing her hair and giggling with Dany until Dany got on the throne, what would be Sansa's recourse when she asked for Northern Independence and Dany said "No?"  

Sansa didn't endure Ramsay so she'd have to go "Mother of Dragons May I" for the rest of her life.

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Sansa might not have been as knowledgeable as Olenna, but she had been living with evil for too long, to be blind to what a ruler like that could mean for the North. I don't know if she suspected she'd turn into a bigger monster than Cersei, though.

So many people (in story, like Jon, until he killed her and the rest of her flock) acted like Daenaerys was some divine and altruistic figure.   She was just as petty and power hungry as every other crown chaser in this story.   Sansa saw her for what she was.  Did you see the smirk Daenaerys wore when it was decided by her lapdog that the Northern Forces would NOT get rest and would march immediately to battle for Kings Landing?

I don't think Sansa knew how big a monster Daenaerys was, she knew Daenaerys was a power player working counter to what Sansa wanted for the North.

[DigitalCount]

Yeah, I don't see why Sansa has to have Bran-level foresight to be justified in disliking Daenerys, as if the default should just be that they be besties. Dany had goals that were in opposition to Sansa's goals. They weren't friends, they had two enemies in common, but they certainly didn't want the other to get what they wanted. Why should Sansa's desire for an independent North be less legitimate than Dany's desire to bring all 7 kingdoms under her rule?

[VCRTracking]

Sansa wouldn't even bend a knee to her own younger brother, it should not still be shocking she wouldn't bend a knee to Dany.

[Snowball II]

18 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Sansa didn't endure Ramsay so she'd have to go "Mother of Dragons May I" for the rest of her life.

THIS.  Also, we need to invent this game, now.  Sounds fun.

[Constantinople]

21 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Some have said that Sansa should have been nice to Dany and I still don't understand why.

If Sansa made a minimal effort to be civil and prepared for battle strategy meetings, perhaps Daenerys would have listened to why the troops needed more rest. But by always being the voice of 'No' and nothing more, she was ignored

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

If Sansa made a minimal effort to be civil and prepared for battle strategy meetings, perhaps Daenerys would have listened to why the troops needed more rest. But by always being the voice of 'No' and nothing more, she was ignored

I just read the article about how the show turned from sociological storytelling to psychological storytelling when they ran out of book material (and that the psychological storytelling was done badly at that) and it really made me think of all this Dany vs. Sansa stuff. Because based on where the story was going and was always going, it just gets in the way to be wondering if small personality adjustments would have made a difference. In GRRM's version of the story both women would be primarily influenced by circumstances and not personality. Dany sees Sansa as the voice of no not because she always seems reluctant but because Sansa represents the threat of an independent North. Sansa speaks up for the troops not because she's trying to challenge Dany in every way but because she Dany's quick capture of the IT isn't her priority. To be fair, even in the scene as written Sansa isn't ignored at all, she's treated as a threat to Dany's power. Only Dany's reaction to the threat is played as a personal mental flaw instead of a logical progression in her development relationship to power.

But when they ran out of material suddenly individual personalities because the driving force of things (or they were supposed to be--it wasn't written well enough to really make it clear) so suddenly it always seems like personal issues are the main issue.

[Advance35]

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But when they ran out of material suddenly individual personalities because the driving force of things (or they were supposed to be--it wasn't written well enough to really make it clear) so suddenly it always seems like personal issues are the main issue.

I'm not sure I agree.  I don't think it was personal at first.  I took Sansa's aversion to Dany as being based purely on Dany being gifted sovereignty over the North.  In the beginning, Dany as an individual was incidental.  As time went on, it became personal.  But Sansa was coming from a place of limited power.  Jon was, whatever he was, after he surrendered the North as a Kingdom.  But he could and did override any input or suggestion Sansa had (even when warranted) in deference to Daenaerys and her insecurities.

I definitely agree the writing could/should have been better but I think the bare bones of the conflict was warranted.

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If Sansa made a minimal effort to be civil and prepared for battle strategy meetings, perhaps Daenerys would have listened to why the troops needed more rest. But by always being the voice of 'No' and nothing more, she was ignored

I thought Sansa was civil.  IMO just because someone is cold doesn't mean they aren't civil.  She stood to attention when Daenaerys entered the room, I assume provided Daenaerys with Winterfell amenities as befit her station.  And notice Sansa only contributed to the battle strategy when it pertained to the North and its soldiers.  She was content to let Daenaerys do whatever with the resources she came to the North with.  It was when the Northmen themselves were thrown in the pot that Sansa voiced warranted concerns.

And again, shouldn't Daenaerys listen and consider all information no matter the source?  If she could only process info when someone kisses her ring, what kind of Queen would she have been?

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Why should Sansa's desire for an independent North be less legitimate than Dany's desire to bring all 7 kingdoms under her rule?

In all of the discussions over the past few weeks, I still haven't seen a logical reason why Sansa should have surrendered her own wants.  It seems like Sansa should have just bent and knee and been happy about it because it was Daenaerys and it was what Jon wanted.

I actually wasn't overly fond of Jon's conduct in the Dany/Sansa conflict, as it pertained to Sansa.  It's like he thought he could bully/brow beat her into submission or that she would just go along out of a sense of futility.  When Sansa expressed warranted concern about their forces Jon just puffed up like a medieval hulk and glowered at her until Daenaerys got her way.

Considering Sansa had played a big role in reclaiming the North for House Stark, holding the Nobles together so that Jon had a force to come back to when he returned with his wannabe Queen, and all of her questions/concerns in relation to logistics (though possibly weaponized) bared consideration, the way Jon automatically continued to tell her to shut up (more or less) didn't speak well of him as a leader off the battle field.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Advance35

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I'm not sure I agree.  I don't think it was personal at first.  I took Sansa's aversion to Dany as being based purely on Dany being gifted sovereignty over the North.  In the beginning, Dany as an individual was incidental.  As time went on, it became personal.  But Sansa was coming from a place of limited power.  Jon was, whatever he was, after he surrendered the North as a Kingdom.  But he could and did override any input or suggestion Sansa had (even when warranted) in deference to Daenaerys and her insecurities.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I do think this was what was going on, but I can understand why for people watching it it felt natural to read it as a personal thing between the characters because that's the way things had started to go. Individual personalities had started becoming more important. So we also get things like Tyrion over and over acting like Cersei will give up the throne because she has a baby to live for instead of reading her as a person in the society we started out in. Likewise Jon's decision to go to the Wall in the beginning was the best choice given his circumstances in society where as his killing Dany feels like the personal part's become more important. It's not the only thing there is, but there's more of it.

So I think in season one there'd be little doubt that the primary conflict between Sansa and Dany is political. It naturally seems like it's maybe more important that Dany felt lonely or Sansa was snotty. The plot, which came from GRRM, obviously was written to be about Sansa wanting Northern Independence for good reason and Dany having come to see her ruling all 7 kingdoms as imperative etc. And it's still there, but these writers can't really write it as well. They're writing Dany has having insecurities that are going to build up to an emotional outburst.

I agree, actually, that Sansa was perfectly civil. A queen who would consider Sansa so uncivil there that she'd really make any strategic military decisions based on it obviously shouldn't be in charge of any army.

[Advance35]

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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I do think this was what was going on, but I can understand why for people watching it it felt natural to read it as a personal thing between the characters because that's the way things had started to go. Individual personalities had started becoming more important. So we also get things like Tyrion over and over acting like Cersei will give up the throne because she has a baby to live for instead of reading her as a person in the society we started out in. Likewise Jon's decision to go to the Wall in the beginning was the best choice given his circumstances in society where as his killing Dany feels like the personal part's become more important. It's not the only thing there is, but there's more of it.

Got it. And I agree.  Considering the level of investment displayed around the boards, imagine how gripping the political cross swords between the two would have been, if it had been given time and room to really breathe.  I think the best actors/actresses on the show were Lena and Peter but credit where it's due, I though ST and EC did a good job with their scenes.  It's funny because at a recent comic convention EC was asked who her favorite character was other then Daenaerys and she said Sansa and Varys (though she credited that she tends to base favorite characters on those who play them, and said loves Sophie and Conleth).

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I agree, actually, that Sansa was perfectly civil. A queen who would consider Sansa so uncivil there that she'd really make any strategic military decisions based on it obviously shouldn't be in charge of any army.

Co-Sign.

OT: I read an interview with Costumer MC and of course the show stopper of the Season was Sansa's coronation dress.  MC said that the material was a homage to Margaery Tyrell, the only other Queen, Sansa liked/considered a friend.  Ms. Clapton felt the two had bonded.  I'm not sure I felt the same.   I know Natalie Dormer felt Margaery genuinely cared about Sansa (and maybe I am influenced by the way the relationship was framed in the books, where Margaery dropped Sansa as soon as The Tyrells couldn't use her) but I thought the Margaery/Sansa relationship while entertaining, wasn't one of genuine connection.  After Sansa fled Kings Landing, it didn't seem like either was overly concerned about the fate of the other, though both girls certainly had their own problems at the time.   I'm curious whether other people considered Margaery/Sansa a genuine friendship/

[Ravenya003]

So I've been a long-time lurker on the GoT boards, and a week having passed since the finale, I really, really have to just vent a little, because my frustration still hasn't gone away.

First of all, I was always a Sansa fan - even back in season one. My absolute favourite character arc is "spoiled brat gets exposed to the real world and because a wiser, more compassionate person because of it" (for example, Cordelia Chase in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Prince Arthur in Merlin). Sansa's arc was clearly a little harsher than most, but the idea of a young woman going through hell but realizing "if I am queen, I will make them love me" was totally my jam. 

But looking back, this trajectory in Sansa's story got botched from the moment D&D decided to give her Jeyne Poole's storyline, turning her into a rape/trauma victim instead of whatever Martin has planned for her (which I'm certain involves her becoming more of a negotiator/diplomat/spy). She was always going to come out of this a colder, more closed-off person (and don't get me started on her crediting her strength to the abuse she suffered. Gross). 

Still, they had time to course-correct...and didn't. I thought Dany's story-arc this season was ghastly, but it was somehow Sansa's that really made me angry. I waited nine years to see fully-formed Sansa as a master politician, having learned manipulation from Littlefinger, flattery/courtesy from Margaery, cunning from Tyrion and (most importantly) what NOT to do from Cersei, and yet almost every power-play she made this season was a rookie move that works out in her favour due to authorial fiat.

For instance, I don't have a problem with her worrying about food supplies, but why would she announce these concerns to the room, which only a) undermines the King, b) alienates an important ally, and c) brings more stress and worry to a situation that is already on the brink of the literal apocalypse? (She was supposed to LEARN from Littlefinger, not BECOME him, and this just felt like his brand of pointless chaos-sowing nonsense).

Then she decides to break her vow to Jon and spill the beans on his parentage, which only puts him in extreme danger from a woman she admits she's frightened of (and makes those red leaves on her coronation dress rather hypocritical considering she broke the vow she made under the weirwood tree).

Again, only authorial fiat protects Jon from dying immediately at Grey Worm's hands once the fallout of the secret's exposure runs its course, and in the end he's exiled - costing her one of her most loyal allies. (Cos seriously, that boy is outta there. He ain't coming back).

And finally, she gets independence for the North, not through intrigue or force or clever politicking, but because she ... hoo boy ... just ASKS her brother the king for it. In front of all the other delegates of the Seven Kingdoms. Who are ... totally cool with that? (And again, the direwolf crown she wears is a pretty big indicator that this isn't Northern Independence, it's the North under Stark rule). 

As others have pointed out, they needed Arya to shill her as "the smartest person I've ever met" to guide the audience into accepting she was right about everything, because D&D also required her to make some of the worst political/leadership moves EVER in order to push their story in the direction they wanted it to go. And it would one thing if I believed (for example) that she deliberately pushed Jon into harm's way in order to claim queenship for herself, but that obviously wasn't what D&D were going for. 

The culmination of her story certainly should have been her as ruler of the North/Winterfell in some capacity (I've foreseen that for YEARS, and would have bet money on it), but D&D clearly had no idea how to get her to that point in a way that made sense, and are obviously oblivious to how vulnerable a position they've left her in.

First of all, she's lost all her most important allies - Arya, Brienne and Jon (that last one due to her own machinations). There was not a single familiar face at her coronation, and of the remaining Northern Houses we DO know of, the Mormonts are dead, the Umbers are dead, the Glovers are either dead or disloyal, and Alys Karstark surely isn't a fan considering Sansa wanted to have her disinherited a few seasons back. 

Likewise, (as I mentioned above) the fact she's "won" Northern independence through the obvious favouritism of her brother only paints a giant target on her back (especially when she antagonized Yara Greyjoy at the council meeting. Um, maybe don't piss off the pirate-queen who knows Northern forces are severely depleted and no longer has any reason to stop raiding and pillaging as per her agreement with the now-dead Daenerys?)

Does anyone doubt that Dornish and Ironborn uprisings aren't imminent as a direct result of watching Sansa just get handed independence by a family member? 

Finally (and this is especially strange since she herself pointed out Bran's inability to have children is a problem), it seemed pretty clear to me in her body language and clothing choices throughout this season that Sansa has no intention of getting married or (subsequently) bearing children. And I don't blame her for one second given what she's been through, but it's also a big problem when you live in a patriarchal system where power flows through primogeniture. 

Best case scenario, she's going to be badgered incessantly by a bunch of old men that she has to get married and produce children ASAP, ESPECIALLY after a devastating war that's just ravaged the population. They'll want stability and they'll want an heir, and that means Sansa will either eventually be pressured into another political match, or be forced to name a male heir (like Queen Elizabeth I did with King James) and resign herself to the end of the Stark line. Sounds like fun.

Because of course, we just spent eight seasons being told that anyone who reaches for power and crowns themselves king/queen is doomed to either death or misery. That has been the fate of every single other ruling monarch featured on this show, so I'm still struggling to see how this is a "happy" ending for Sansa: a queen with no strong allies, a bunch of pissed-off neighbours, and no desire to marry/have children despite this being a job requirement.

TL;DR I am not a Sansa hater, but a disappointed lover. So much more care and thought should have gone into all of this, and I've spent the last week feeling cognitive dissonance at the fact so many other fans seem to be totally delighted with this ending for her.

The coronation scene was gorgeous - so gorgeous in fact that I'm pretty sure D&D hoped to wave it around like a flag to distract us from the fact Sansa is sitting on a powder-keg and has more or less lit the fuse herself. The wheel turns on, I suppose.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Ravenya003

[Advance35]

The downfall of ambiguous writing.  

I see Sansa having kids one day.  Voluntarily.  I don't think she's going to be pressured into it.  Her mentioning it to Bran told me, she felt heirs were a requirement for ruling, I had/have know doubt she is planning to have her own one day.  With whom? That's left to our imagination.  But for the first time she wasn't in morbid colors or BDSM leather.  I thought her coronation dress was a definite sign things have shifted for her.

And I certainly don't think she needs to fear Yara Greyjoy.  Yara sat out the season because her forces were so slim.  And just because The North isn't part of the Seven Kingdoms doesn't mean she can't have dealings/common interest/alliances with any of the Seven.   She has a blood relation/rapport with the Iron Throne (Bran and Tyrion) and is blood related to Robyn Arryn (with a strong rapport with Lord Royce) and is related to Edmure Tully, Lord of the Riverlands.

And I count her sabotage of Daenaerys as intrigue.  Well written intrigue?  Meh. But acceptable to me.  Daenaerys was the Goliath to her Sansa's David.  Daenaerys had the bulk of the power in the match up.  Dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied, She was a magic unicorn in Westeros (immune to fire and all other Mary Sue properties), Sansa had, Sansa.  Jon was of no help and in fact sided with an outsider against her.

Sansa had a choice to make, she could maintain Jon's confidence and trust or she could make an attempt to sabotage the woman who stood in the way of what she wanted for her country and House.  Jon was hardly a sterling brother figure in Season 8, so I think she made the right choice.  Sansa needed to do what was best for Sansa, nobody else was.

Then again, I'm just glad to get an ending.  I don't have faith that GRRM will finish his series.  Will he/would he do things differently?  I'd be interested in finding out but I doubt we ever will.  

There is also some satisfaction in seeing that a character many wrote off as a dead girl walking, was intended to survive the whole time.  Many said she would die because her character served no purpose in the fight against the Others, some also felt that GRRM's outline from the 90's pointed to Sansa's fate being death at a young age.   As a Sansa fan I am thrilled to know she outlives current enemies (Cersei, Littlefinger) and pending one's (Daenaerys).

I think that's what's allowed me to greet the end of the show with a smile.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Advance35

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

First of all, she's lost all her most important allies - Arya, Brienne and Jon (that last one due to her own machinations). There was not a single familiar face at her coronation, and of the remaining Northern Houses we DO know of, the Mormonts are dead, the Umbers are dead, the Glovers are either dead or disloyal, and Alys Karstark surely isn't a fan considering Sansa wanted to have her disinherited a few seasons back. 

Alys was also killed at Winterfell.

Sansa is presented on the show as being a popular and respected leader in the North, and has been for the last two seasons (even if the presentation of that was decidedly lacklustre).  There’s no reason to invent domestic opponents for her that the show gives no indication exist, or to regard her as dangerously isolated.  She chose (presumably) to let Brienne go — if she felt endangered, she wouldn’t do that.

While it’s obviously less satisfying for a TV audience to not see familiar characters at the coronation, in-universe these are all loyal supporters.

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Finally (and this is especially strange since she herself pointed out Bran's inability to have children is a problem), it seemed pretty clear to me in her body language and clothing choices throughout this season that Sansa has no intention of getting married or (subsequently) bearing children. And I don't blame her for one second given what she's been through, but it's also a big problem when you live in a patriarchal system where power flows through primogeniture. 

The general issue of Sansa’s marrying again was never raised on the show one way or another — outside of Littlefinger’s desire to do so, and I guess Tyrion’s brief allusion to them staying married.  But in neither instance does Sansa say she doesn’t intend to ever marry again, when that could easily have been fitted into the conversation.  The fact that she notes Bran’s inability to father heirs as a problem would arguably be a point in favour of her planning to marry again eventually.

It feels to me like D&D knew that Sansa wasn’t going to be marrying any character the audience knows during the run of the show, and so basically decided to avoid the whole issue.  Logically this is something that would have been actively raised pretty much since she widowed herself — similar to the complete lack of discussion around Jon marrying after he became king.

Ironically, for all the talk about the pathbreaking aspect to female leadership in Westeros, Sansa’s actual time as a leader is conspicuously devoid of any challenges specific to her gender.  It’s never brought up by anybody, she doesn’t have to deal with marriage politics, male-centric policy areas where she has no background (such as military strategy) she seems to have taken a crash course in overnight, and so on.

Edited May 27, 2019 by SeanC

[RobertDeSneero]

3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

And finally, she gets independence for the North, not through intrigue or force or clever politicking, but because she ... hoo boy ... just ASKS her brother the king for it. In front of all the other delegates of the Seven Kingdoms. Who are ... totally cool with that? (And again, the direwolf crown she wears is a pretty big indicator that this isn't Northern Independence, it's the North under Stark rule). 

I don't think she was asking for independence.  He chose not to fight the war that would have been required to keep the North in the Seven Kingdoms.  

A Stark ruling in the North is a tenet of Northern nationalism.  Lyanna Mormont supports Jon as King in the North because he has Stark blood.  Sociologically, the North sees itself as distinct, with its unique history, separate religion, and its ethnic heritage coming from the First Men rather than the Andals.  There is a notably xenophobic reaction when the foreign Queen comes waltzing into Winterfell with her foreign army.

I interpret Sansa as a character who moved away from sympathy for cosmopolitanism and multiculturalism due to her personal experience and towards a stance of nationalism.

[slf]

On 5/26/2019 at 6:53 PM, Advance35 said:

OT: I read an interview with Costumer MC and of course the show stopper of the Season was Sansa's coronation dress.  MC said that the material was a homage to Margaery Tyrell, the only other Queen, Sansa liked/considered a friend.  Ms. Clapton felt the two had bonded.  I'm not sure I felt the same.   I know Natalie Dormer felt Margaery genuinely cared about Sansa (and maybe I am influenced by the way the relationship was framed in the books, where Margaery dropped Sansa as soon as The Tyrells couldn't use her) but I thought the Margaery/Sansa relationship while entertaining, wasn't one of genuine connection.  After Sansa fled Kings Landing, it didn't seem like either was overly concerned about the fate of the other, though both girls certainly had their own problems at the time.   I'm curious whether other people considered Margaery/Sansa a genuine friendship/

I did, both in the books and in the show. I think Maragery was genuine in her desire to work the system (as she had been sent by her father to do) but also genuine in her affection for Sansa. Regarding their show relationship, which is likely what the dress homage is about, things are just a little more fleshed out because for one thing we get to see things from Margaery's perspective, unlike in the book. While we see in scenes between Margaery and her grandmother that she clearly doesn't like Joffrey and is only marrying him for political gain, we get not a single hint that she isn't being genuine in her friendship with Sansa. She's very open with Sansa (the talk about women getting to try so little before they're married), continues being sweet after her family's plan to marry Sansa to Loras gets scrapped, the rose (a yellow rose tipped in red signifies friendship), etc. Lots of little things. I appreciate that others may not have that same perspective, tho.

TBH, part of it is also just wanting that friendship. This show, and the books too, aren't very good at remembering that women can be friends with each other so there aren't that many female friendships to choose from. The show never gave me a reason to doubt Margaery's sincerity so I don't.

Edited May 30, 2019 by slf

[Constantinople]

On 5/26/2019 at 7:53 PM, Advance35 said:

OT: I read an interview with Costumer MC and of course the show stopper of the Season was Sansa's coronation dress.  MC said that the material was a homage to Margaery Tyrell, the only other Queen, Sansa liked/considered a friend.  Ms. Clapton felt the two had bonded.  I'm not sure I felt the same.   I know Natalie Dormer felt Margaery genuinely cared about Sansa (and maybe I am influenced by the way the relationship was framed in the books, where Margaery dropped Sansa as soon as The Tyrells couldn't use her) but I thought the Margaery/Sansa relationship while entertaining, wasn't one of genuine connection.  After Sansa fled Kings Landing, it didn't seem like either was overly concerned about the fate of the other, though both girls certainly had their own problems at the time.   I'm curious whether other people considered Margaery/Sansa a genuine friendship/

I had the sense the were friends due to proximity, more than anything else (and because of their similarities, eldest daughter of highest lords, traditionally girlish in manner, etc).

That said, I'm not sure how often any character thought about a friend when they were separated.  How often did Arya think about Gendry or Hot Pie? When did Jon mention Sam except in very utilitarian terms (dragonglass on Dragonstone)?

Which doesn't mean they weren't friends, just that there's a limited amount of time, so the writers may not have felt investing time in such scene was worthwhile.

[Indi]

17 hours ago, slf said:

While we see in scenes between Margaery and her grandmother that she clearly doesn't like Joffrey and is only marrying him for political gain, we get not a single hint that she isn't being genuine in her friendship with Sansa. She's very open with Sansa (the talk about women getting to try so little before they're married), continues being sweet after her family's plan to marry Sansa to Loras gets scrapped, the rose (a yellow rose tipped in red signifies friendship), etc. Lots of little things. I appreciate that others may not have that same perspective, tho.

I agree with this. There was no reason for Margaery to seek Sansa's company, after the plans for a union between Sansa and Loras were dropped, if she didn't feel any genuine affection. Maybe it wasn't a friendship between equals, since Margaery was so much more sophisticated and cunning back then, but she was exactly, what Sansa needed in KL, someone fun, older and wiser, to open up to a little and to learn from. No matter how skittish and traumatized Sansa was, she didn't stand a chance against Margaery's charisma. She was also as anti-Cersei in character as anyone could be, so that was a bonus for Sansa.

Would have I liked for them to spend more time together or for Sansa to mention her friend, after she escaped KL? Of course! But for that, we would have needed better showrunners than D&D.

[Smad]

On 5/27/2019 at 6:26 AM, RobertDeSneero said:

I don't think she was asking for independence.  He chose not to fight the war that would have been required to keep the North in the Seven Kingdoms.  

A Stark ruling in the North is a tenet of Northern nationalism.  Lyanna Mormont supports Jon as King in the North because he has Stark blood.  Sociologically, the North sees itself as distinct, with its unique history, separate religion, and its ethnic heritage coming from the First Men rather than the Andals.  There is a notably xenophobic reaction when the foreign Queen comes waltzing into Winterfell with her foreign army.

I interpret Sansa as a character who moved away from sympathy for cosmopolitanism and multiculturalism due to her personal experience and towards a stance of nationalism.

As much as I don't want to give D&D credit (I think they lucked out), Starks are pretty insular, as is the North, and not supposed to go South. So having a Stark King in the South, even if he's the ruler of all 7 Kingdoms, wouldn't do anything for them. In the books there was one Stark who went South and was given power and he bounced back North as soon as he could. So the North asking for independence despite having a Stark King in KL sort of matches what it might be like in the books. And yes the North is markedly different from the other Kingdoms, something even Cersei comments on. 'The North can not be held by an outsider.'

I personally found the xenophobic notions to be as bad as the shows portrayal of people of color. The North fearing and distrusting strangers is all well and good but why make it about skin color? When Dany rode into WF the people were giving her the same looks as they gave Missandei and Grey Worm. And then it took this xenophobic turn later on.

[Advance35]

Quote

As much as I don't want to give D&D credit (I think they lucked out), Starks are pretty insular, as is the North, and not supposed to go South. So having a Stark King in the South, even if he's the ruler of all 7 Kingdoms, wouldn't do anything for them. In the books there was one Stark who went South and was given power and he bounced back North as soon as he could. So the North asking for independence despite having a Stark King in KL sort of matches what it might be like in the books. And yes the North is markedly different from the other Kingdoms, something even Cersei comments on. 'The North can not be held by an outsider.'

The North's outlook didn't surprise me because of what they've been through in the last few years.   The Iron Throne beheaded their (by some) beloved Warden.  The Iron Throne and Bannerman from Other Kingdoms enacted the Red Wedding.  The Iron Throne then made House Bolton the Wardens.   And that's just a general description.   

Sansa has been in the South for Years, unable to express grief or genuine emotion for fear of what The Throne/The Lannisters would do to her.  She's been able to do. nothing while in Kings Landing but stew in resentment.

I do think she learned what Littlefinger tried to teach her, chaos can allow for opportunity.  The defeat of thee dead, the fall of the Mad Queens, this was the North's best chance of breaking away.

Credit where it's due, I do like that D&D gave Sansa the grit and tenacity to not give up on what she wants even when most other people don't want her to have it.  It's not always easy to be your own advocate when surrounded by naysayers, especially for a girl like Sansa.

Quote

 Maybe it wasn't a friendship between equals, since Margaery was so much more sophisticated and cunning back then, but she was exactly, what Sansa needed in KL, someone fun, older and wiser, to open up to a little and to learn from. No matter how skittish and traumatized Sansa was, she didn't stand a chance against Margaery's charisma. She was also as anti-Cersei in character as anyone could be, so that was a bonus for Sansa.

Maybe this better describes how I feel about the relationship.  I very much enjoyed their interaction, Kings Landing at it's height was the show at it's best.   I also think Sansa learned quite a bit from Margaery.  I do think watching the Tyrell's in action was how she came up with her maneuver with the Lords Declarant in the Vale.

And I don't know if it will happen (I actually doubt it) but I would love for Sansa to get to spend more time with the Tyrells in the book.  If the other Houses are going to be involved in "The Great War" it is possible.  And I think GRRM once said wee would get to know Willas and Garlan (who was really sweet to her in the book).

[izabella]

On 5/26/2019 at 5:47 PM, Advance35 said:

I actually wasn't overly fond of Jon's conduct in the Dany/Sansa conflict, as it pertained to Sansa.  It's like he thought he could bully/brow beat her into submission or that she would just go along out of a sense of futility.  When Sansa expressed warranted concern about their forces Jon just puffed up like a medieval hulk and glowered at her until Daenaerys got her way.

Considering Sansa had played a big role in reclaiming the North for House Stark, holding the Nobles together so that Jon had a force to come back to when he returned with his wannabe Queen, and all of her questions/concerns in relation to logistics (though possibly weaponized) bared consideration, the way Jon automatically continued to tell her to shut up (more or less) didn't speak well of him as a leader off the battle field.

I try to give Jon the benefit of the doubt that he meant well and that he had been away from Sansa (and Arya) for so long that he was clueless about her growth and strength and who she is now.  He still saw Sansa (and Arya) as the young girl she was when he left, and now suddenly she has a mind and an opinion and the will and backbone (and the Vale army) to act. 

It's similar to how some of us were cringing at little Arya having sex - even though we were with her every step of the way to becoming a Faceless Man, we still thought of her as a young girl and were all "my eyes, my eyes!" when she chose her lover.

Jon still saw himself as being older, smarter, worldlier, and a man whose opinion counts more than a girl's.  He grew to respect Sansa in the end, but I doubt he ever understood her in the least.  I fault the show for not giving them any conversations where they explained things to each other.

Does anyone have a gif of Sansa's eyes leading Edmure back to his seat after he started campaigning to be King?  Please?

[slf]

ETA: here's a gifset of that moment.

Edited June 1, 2019 by slf

[Edith]

From the oficial synopses for episode 6:

[Advance35]

I did a rewatch of Season 8 over the weekend and while I agree with those that feel the writing was rushed, I have to say, for the most part, I am pleased with what was done with Sansa's character.  And I have to admit, I am still pleasantly surprised Sansa came through the show as a winner.  During Season 8's initial airing, I expected Sansa to be on the losing end.  She was in opposition to what the "1 in a thousand year, immune to fire, dragon birthing" Daenaerys Targaryen wanted.  I expected the story to either kill Sansa off so the Magical one could get her way or have Sansa fall in awe of her, like everyone else in the story did, at some point.

After the physical abuse by Joffrey (his guards), the emotional abuse by Cersei, the psychological abuse by Littlefinger and the physical/emotional/sexual abuse by Ramsay, I would have thought less of Sansa, if she had fallen in line and voluntarily surrendered the North and the power that came with it being independent of the Iron Throne.  While stopping the White Walkers was a group effort on the part of the combatants (Wildings/Northerners/Unsullied/Dothraki/Dragons), Winterfell would be in the hands of the Boltons if not for Sansa (Jon wanted to take Sansa and go someplace "warm", she had to brow beat him and press the Rickon issue to get him back in the game) and no force would have been put in place to stop the Zombie event horizon.

One thing I do wish the show had done better was articulate a little more with regards to Sansa's motivation.  There were a few compelling reasons she could have been so dead set against the North continuing as part of the other 6 Kingdoms.   The  Iron Throne had her Father beheaded, The Iron Throne had her held prisoner and beaten, The Iron Throne had her married to an enemy of her family (Tyrion), The Iron Throne arranged the grizzly murder of her Brother and Mother.  The Iron Throne stripped House Stark of it's standing and made House Bolton the Wardens of The North.  To flee the Iron Throne she took on a false identity.  And to shatter an alliance held by the Iron Throne, she was married to Ramsay (into House Bolton).   That's a lot of bad road.

If Sansa had been made to bend the knee and subject to the wants and whims of Daenaerys, who's to say Dany's heir (whomever she named) wouldn't have other plans for the North eventually?  Jon was not an asset on the Political Stage, so a marriage would have been to Dany's benefit only.  We saw that in political matters, Dany influenced Jon, not the other way around.  Being bosom buddies with the Iron Throne never did the North any good (Ned and Robert were like Brothers and that didn't save House Stark from everything it went through).

When it looked like the power struggle was over (look at the smug on Dany's face when Jon tells Sansa to sit down and shut up during the strategy meeting) Sansa weaponized the only thing she had left, the truth about Jon pedigree.  Sansa doesn't just fold her hands and gracefully accept defeat anymore.  I like that.  She didn't commit mass murder, she's not passing her child off as someone he/she isn't, she didn't even resort to poisoning someone's wine.  Like her maneuvering in the Vale, she's used the truth to her advantage (and her rivals disadvantage).  To topple her political enemy and secure power for her House (and herself), she broke a promise to keep a secret and told the truth.  It was an impressive and artful gamble.

There are the clear issues, Sansa has with being powerless.  They also could have explored how her desires related to Robb and Catelyn and what they were murdered for.  But I understand time was limited and Sansa is only one character.

I wish there had been more or at least more nuance provided but overall, I'm just ecstatic Sansa ended alive.  She's Queen in the North.  For the moment she has a good rapport with the Iron Throne, The Hand of the King and The Vale.   Her hair and wardrobe were Flawless this Season and though contentious, the writers provided her some very memorable character interactions.  I don't worry about her being alone because, Sansa has been alone for years.  Not physically but in terms of interest in her well being and that of her House.  It was never a priority for Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Olenna (to be honest), Lysa, Roose or Ramsay.

She'll marry when she feels she needs to, in order to secure succession for House Stark, her comment to Bran clearly shows it's something she considers a requirement for ruling.  In my mind, it's a Northern Lord that looks like Bjorn from Vikings (Circa Seasons 2-4).

[becauseIsaidso]

Sansa = Cersei 2.0

[Smad]

4 hours ago, becauseIsaidso said:

Sansa = Cersei 2.0

Nope.

[slf]

On 7/3/2019 at 5:09 PM, becauseIsaidso said:

Sansa = Cersei 2.0

Yikes. Comparing Sansa to one of her abusers. How so? Cersei was sexually assaulting her brother by the time she was ten. She abused children, she abused other women, starved people, committed mass murder, etc. I think there's a long way to go between Sansa and Cersei.

If anyone was like Cersei it was Daenerys.

[Minneapple]

I don't think Sansa will be as monstrous as Cersei, but I do think she could wind up being manipulative and emotionally cold. Her Winds of Winter chapter definitely foreshadows it. And in the show she's pretty manipulative at the end. 

[slf]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I don't think Sansa will be as monstrous as Cersei, but I do think she could wind up being manipulative and emotionally cold. Her Winds of Winter chapter definitely foreshadows it. And in the show she's pretty manipulative at the end. 

I think Sansa withdrew after Ramsay's brutality and it took her a while to get to the point where she could trust in people again. But I think in the end it showed her beginning to open up a bit more. I believe that she will be  reserved; like how Ned was left even more reserved after the events of Robert's Rebellion. 

I'll be honest, I don't see Sansa as manipulative at all. Manipulative people are rarely who they present themselves to be. They don't take responsibility for the things they've done, especially when there are disastrous consequences, and blame other people. Manipulative people generally disrespect boundaries, prey on someone's conscience/empathy, create plots and shit stir often just for the sake of drama, they generally target people more vulnerable than themselves, etc. That doesn't describe Sansa, in my opinion, that describes Cersei and Petyr. I think Sansa became more shrewd, which is different. People who are shrewd generally rely on being observant, being a good judge of character, out-thinking their opponents, etc. And I like that because Sansa's big weakness as a character in the earlier seasons was her flawed judgement in character; she survived by learning to consider people's motives, goals, likely responses given past behavior, etc. She didn't become a master assassin or great general or prophetic leader or Master of Coin with zero qualifications. She turned her weakness into one of her strengths.

Edited July 15, 2019 by slf

[merrick715]

On 7/3/2019 at 5:09 PM, becauseIsaidso said:

Sansa = Cersei 2.0

Did I miss Sansa blowing up a sept, or indiscriminately burning King's Landing, and its citizens? 

[WindyNights]

On 7/14/2019 at 8:15 PM, Minneapple said:

I don't think Sansa will be as monstrous as Cersei, but I do think she could wind up being manipulative and emotionally cold. Her Winds of Winter chapter definitely foreshadows it. And in the show she's pretty manipulative at the end. 

Her TWOW chapter is molding her into a Marge-type figure not Cersei. 

[slf]

One thing the show did in the final season that I liked, tho it predictably annoyed some, was evoke Sansa's meeting with Lyanna during her meeting with Daenerys. Sansa had tried flattery with Lyanna - that's what she learned worked in King's Landing - only to be rebuffed. The North is different. Sansa adapted, reflected her surroundings as she always did, and so when Daenerys came calling and tried the same thing Sansa responded coldly. But where Sansa adapted, Daenerys didn't.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:09 PM, becauseIsaidso said:

Sansa = Cersei 2.0

Sansa may never be as outright bloodthirsty as Cersei, but I do see mostly Cersei in her at the end. Selfish, manipulative, causes conflict even when everyone is on the same page, thinks she alone has all the answers and Jon, Arya, Tyrion, etc. are all idiots, and doesn’t care what happens to others as long as her family ends up on top at the end of it all. If she was supposed to be like Margaery, then I guess the writing really let her down as much as the other characters; her actions never came across as rational or deliberately calculated like with the Tyrells. Nearly all the main characters became monsters by the end, imo. I guess that makes sense for a cynical show like GoT.

[slf]

They are both women who at one point had long hair and that's where the similarities between Cersei and Sansa end, imo.

[Ravenya003]

Sansa will never be as needlessly cruel and vindictive as Cersei (I don't think ANYONE could ever be), but it's also naive to think she didn't pick up a LITTLE on some of Cersei's mentality that outsiders were not to be trusted.

The problem is that the show ends right when Sansa's reign begins, so what kind of queen she'll be is largely left up to our own imaginations. Queen of the North is a VERY different gig from Lady of Winterfell.

Here's a hypothetical: for the sake of peace and an important alliance, a Northern Lord wants to marry a much younger girl from another House. Queen Sansa knows the strategic importance of the match, all of her male counsellors are encouraging her to give her blessing, and granting this lord the boon of a young bride means he owes her a favour. 

But the girl in question really, really doesn't want to marry this man, who is twice her age, not very attractive, and who clearly has mercenary motivations. She's come to beg Sansa to let her off the hook.

So, does Queen Sansa make the girl go through with the marriage? Or does she risk the ire of all the men around her by denying social tradition, ignoring their perfectly reasonable request, and siding with the girl for no other reason but to rescue her from what Sansa had to go through? 

What version of Sansa did D&D leave us with? The one who says yes to this scenario, or the one who says no? (This is largely rhetorical BTW, I'm just trying to illustrate the fact that we're left with no real understanding about what kind of ruler Sansa is going to be. In comparison, Cersei would have clearly made the girl go through with it, and relished her despair. On the other hand, Dany of the first eight-and-a-half seasons, never would have done so - because she explicitly empathized with women in this position, and had the hard power (dragons) to ensure no one could undermine her decision. When it comes to Sansa, I honestly can't see which way she would have gone).

Edited July 28, 2019 by Ravenya003

[merrick715]

12 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

On the other hand, Dany of the first eight-and-a-half seasons, never would have done so - because she explicitly empathized with women in this position, and had the hard power (dragons) to ensure no one could undermine her decision. When it comes to Sansa, I honestly can't see which way she would have gone).

Dany had no issues with threatening Hizdahr zo Loraq, with her dragon, into agreeing to marry her, so I'm not sure if forced marriages are close to her heart. Does Dany care about women yes? Yes. Would she put her own political gain above the women in these positions? Most likely. Can the same be said about Sansa? Absolutely.

[slf]

On 7/27/2019 at 8:27 PM, Ravenya003 said:

Sansa will never be as needlessly cruel and vindictive as Cersei (I don't think ANYONE could ever be), but it's also naive to think she didn't pick up a LITTLE on some of Cersei's mentality that outsiders were not to be trusted.

Naivete has nothing to do with it. Cersei didn't believe that "outsiders" were not to be trusted. She believed that anyone who wasn't an immediate member of her family - which she defined as: herself, Jaime, Tywin, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen - could not be trusted. And even then, she was shown to not really trust even them. Sansa may disagree with her siblings but she does trust them. She also trusts Brienne, various other Northerners, Rivermen, and people from the Vale. She was shown to have trusted Margaery and Olenna and the coronation dress suggests that she has no regrets on that front. Cersei ruled like a mob boss; find a few people you think won't snitch and have them handle everything. Sansa is nothing like that.

As for the hypothetical, it seems to me that it heavily relies on how things were in the earlier seasons not on what we saw of the North, and Sansa, toward the end. Because Sansa is Queen. Sansa is not a man; she is the eldest daughter of the last Lord Paramount and the eldest sister of the last two Kings in the North. She is not the eldest male who can legally claim the throne and yet she's ruling and the Northerners are happy to have her. Sansa makes the laws. The Sansa who supported her bastard brother becoming King. Who took council from a 12 year old child. One of the people she trusted most was a woman warrior who went on to become the first woman to be knighted. Sansa is not a conventional leader so I have no doubt that Sansa would not force that girl to marry against her will.

Edited July 29, 2019 by slf

[Smad]

On 7/24/2019 at 10:05 PM, slf said:

One thing the show did in the final season that I liked, tho it predictably annoyed some, was evoke Sansa's meeting with Lyanna during her meeting with Daenerys. Sansa had tried flattery with Lyanna - that's what she learned worked in King's Landing - only to be rebuffed. The North is different. Sansa adapted, reflected her surroundings as she always did, and so when Daenerys came calling and tried the same thing Sansa responded coldly. But where Sansa adapted, Daenerys didn't.

Or it could have been a reference to the pilot episode which is what 8x01 was supposed to be. Dany basically treated Sansa as Cersei did upon first meeting. Cersei remarked on Sansa's looks as well which back then was flattering for Sansa. But she learned that behind that false compliment was a vile woman. It's just that unlike in the pilot, this time someone remarking on her looks would get them nowhere with Sansa. But the scene also works as a throwback to S6, only this time Sansa was the Lyanna Mormont to Dany's Sansa.

On 7/25/2019 at 10:34 PM, TheGreenKnight said:

Sansa may never be as outright bloodthirsty as Cersei, but I do see mostly Cersei in her at the end. Selfish, manipulative, causes conflict even when everyone is on the same page, thinks she alone has all the answers and Jon, Arya, Tyrion, etc. are all idiots, and doesn’t care what happens to others as long as her family ends up on top at the end of it all.

How does that match at all with what happened on the show? The only comparison we can make between Sansa and Cersei in power is S7/8. During this time Cersei destroyed the Tyrells and took their gold/food, not for the good of the people but for herself. She hired sellswords to protect herself, not the city with a million smallfolk. That food was also never meant for the little people (she would rather give food to the dogs ala S4) in case of winter or a siege. She forced thousands into the Red Keep to use them as shields. Not to mention she would have killed anyone to keep herself in power.

Sansa, meanwhile, was thinking about everyone. From soldiers to smallfolk. She worried about armoring, long term supply due to weather, logistics in regards to people leaving their castles and coming to Winterfell, smallfolk included. She sought a diplomatic approach in regards to the Lords rather than a violent one (like Arya suggested) because she didn't want the North to be divided or lose the support of the Vale. And these were things that still rang true in S8. She worried about food, logistics, keeping the doors open for refugees until the last minute, she sat in the freezing cold among smallfolk/soldiers. I don't see it as her causing conflict either, no one in the North (or the Vale) was fond of Jon kneeling or giving up his kingdom to a Targ. Sansa simply decided to stand with her people and her country which she had every right to do. If you want your country to be independent...that's not going to happen without conflict, because the goals of your country are in direct conflict with those of someone else, namely the ones who want to rule your country.

Sansa also had 3 chances to either seize power or maintain power. But she didn't go for it. Which makes her as anti-Cersei as anyone could possibly be. She immediately gave up her position as Lady of Winterfell when Bran returned because he was the rightful heir according to their feudal rules. She refused the Lords who wanted to make her queen in S7. She came to KL with an army in 8x06 intending to free Jon and reinstall him as King in the North (otherwise she wouldn't have mentioned that the North lost their King). If she was Cersei she would have happily let Jon rot and die so she can be queen.

And quite frankly Jon and Tyrion in the show are idiots whose stupidity amounted to mass casualties. And Arya never had a mind for diplomacy or politics.

[Heathrowe]

On 5/25/2019 at 1:28 PM, Drogo said:

Sansa is Cinderella, throwing herself on the floor and refusing to accept her new stepmother... then acting superior when the Stepmother turns Evil some time later.

I always think it's funny when posters are angry that Sansa wasn't submissive enough to Jon. Jon Snow was an idiot who made many poor choices!  Sansa was right to be skeptical of his decisions. And in the end, she was just plain correct not to fully embrace Dany. I loved Dany as a character, i don't think she was done right in the final episodes-but I don't think it was dastardly for Sansa to reject her.

[slf]

Love that Sansa marched into King's Landing with an army to get her brother back. That's what she always wished would happen for her.

[Ravenya003]

18 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

I always think it's funny when posters are angry that Sansa wasn't submissive enough to Jon. Jon Snow was an idiot who made many poor choices!  Sansa was right to be skeptical of his decisions. And in the end, she was just plain correct not to fully embrace Dany. I loved Dany as a character, i don't think she was done right in the final episodes-but I don't think it was dastardly for Sansa to reject her.

I was delighted that Sansa was immune to Dany's charms and unimpressed with the dragons, I was just hoping that it would eventually lead to a grudging two-way respect between the two women instead of...what actually ended up happening. 

[Smad]

On 8/1/2019 at 12:01 PM, Ravenya003 said:

I was delighted that Sansa was immune to Dany's charms and unimpressed with the dragons, I was just hoping that it would eventually lead to a grudging two-way respect between the two women instead of...what actually ended up happening. 

I actually thought that after yet another Tyrion disaster (Lannister army not coming), Dany would offer Sansa to be Hand of the Queen. But then I remembered that Dany had transformed into a simpleton when it comes to politics so that went nowhere. I thought that would have been a great story though.

[Colorful Mess]

On 5/25/2019 at 10:15 PM, VCRTracking said:

Sansa wouldn't even bend a knee to her own younger brother, it should not still be shocking she wouldn't bend a knee to Dany.

Huh? She wanted Jon to be KitN again and wanted everyone to know that he had a rightful claim to the throne. Jon betrayed the North and was absolutely ruined as a character in the final season because he was Dany's doormat (for reasons I still dont understand). Missandei was allowed to choose her queen, but the Northerners can't. Sounds like tyranny. The best thing Sansa did was play along and until Dany self-imploded on her own. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[Colorful Mess]

On 5/24/2019 at 12:49 PM, Drogo said:

This is a strange analogy.  Did Daenerys show up to Sansa's home and "announce herself" as Sansa's new leader?  Or did the King of Sansa's country swear their allegiance to a larger force and she showed up as exactly that? 

That king was elected by his lords, that he SERVES. They dont serve HIM. He has a duty to the people and should have made an alliance. It would be one thing if he was a dictator and decided to take the throne for himself. But he didn't, he was chosen by majority rule. It would be like my elected officials deciding that someone else should take over their job, that I elected them to do. And the reason they decided this, is because they're horny.