Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[izabella]

17 minutes ago, Indi said:

She is an amateur, indeed. If she wasn't, she would have hidden her true feelings and maneuvered without putting a target on her back. However, it was Jon, who put that target on his back, the moment he told Dany, he's a Targ. Danny is the one, who wants the IT at all costs, not Sansa. Once Jon couldn't reciprocate Danny's love, how long would Dany let him live?

I never understood why he told Dany first, before his family.  

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, BooBear said:

Here is what I don't  under stand... why is the discussion about Northern Independence being done right now? I mean is this the time? Sansa put it out there and now if she was playing the game, she should show loyalty to Dany. Get Dany on the throne and then, when the time is right, ask again. Perhaps take less than full independence with the goal of moving toward that if things go well.

It was put out now because Dany had come to Winterfell with Jon having just bowed to her and Sansa, instead, was saying the North wanted independence. It would be far harder to talk about independence *after* Dany had declared herself the ruler of 7 kingdoms. It would never happen then.

If Dany was mad this could have led to her slaughtering all the Starks, sure, but Sansa has no reason to think she's mad. She's being like Dany in that she's not playing the game like LF but just directly saying what she wants, but she's not  trying to be Queen of the 7 Kingdoms or even Queen in the North.

54 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Eh. Jon was KITN, he bent the knee. If Sansa didn’t like it, she should have raised an army of northern men to fight for independence. Quite frankly, if things hadn’t gone to shit with Dany and Jon - the North while part of the seven kingdoms would have been left largely alone.  

Why is it a bad thing that Sansa isn't actually Dany who wants to raise an army and fight Dany? If independence can be lost by one guy bending his knee and no bloodshed it can be gotten back by one woman nodding her head. Of course Dany didn't have to give it to her. She was never going to give it to her, whatever attitude she claimed to have in better circumstances. That's how Dany's arc developed all along. "If things hadn't gone to shit..." was always going to be the deal with the North being ruled by the South. That's why they want independence rather than just hoping to be left alone.

[ShellsandCheese]

54 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It was put out now because Dany had come to Winterfell with Jon having just bowed to her and Sansa, instead, was saying the North wanted independence. It would be far harder to talk about independence *after* Dany had declared herself the ruler of 7 kingdoms. It would never happen then.

If Dany was mad this could have led to her slaughtering all the Starks, sure, but Sansa has no reason to think she's mad. She's being like Dany in that she's not playing the game like LF but just directly saying what she wants, but she's not  trying to be Queen of the 7 Kingdoms or even Queen in the North.

Why is it a bad thing that Sansa isn't actually Dany who wants to raise an army and fight Dany? If independence can be lost by one guy bending his knee and no bloodshed it can be gotten back by one woman nodding her head. Of course Dany didn't have to give it to her. She was never going to give it to her, whatever attitude she claimed to have in better circumstances. That's how Dany's arc developed all along. "If things hadn't gone to shit..." was always going to be the deal with the North being ruled by the South. That's why they want independence rather than just hoping to be left alone.

I’m not saying she had to fight Dany. She should have used her supposed wit, smarts, and intelligence to make sure the North remained independent. Instead she was openly hostile to someone who had at that time had come to defend her home which she claims to love so much against the AOTD. I couldn’t help thinking hmm, what would Margeary do? She would have handled that like a boss. Although, its probably just another example of piss poor writing and characterization. 

[Advance35]

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It was put out now because Dany had come to Winterfell with Jon having just bowed to her and Sansa, instead, was saying the North wanted independence. It would be far harder to talk about independence *after* Dany had declared herself the ruler of 7 kingdoms. It would never happen then.

And waiting until Dany was securely on the Throne would have been foolish.   What would be Dany's incentive when she has EVERYTHING she wants, the Iron Throne and all Seven Kingdoms.   Sansa would have approached the Throne on bended knee and Dany would have said "No. All Seven Kingdoms belong to me. Return to Winterfell Lady Sansa and make sure the North sends it's taxes to the Royal Treasurey."

Working against Dany's interest before she is on the Throne is Sansa's best chance.

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If Dany was mad this could have led to her slaughtering all the Starks, sure, but Sansa has no reason to think she's mad. She's being like Dany in that she's not playing the game like LF but just directly saying what she wants, but she's not  trying to be Queen of the 7 Kingdoms or even Queen in the North.

We also don't know if Jon admitted that Dany knew about his claim.  If so, Sansa probably assumed (correctly) that it is Dany that wanted the truth kept under wraps.  Which led to Sansa' Hail Mary, telling Tyrion.   Sansa wanted her political powerbase to crumble.

If there was one woman who would have made a good Queen it was Margaery Tyrell, in peace time that is, when it comes to power struggles I can't say Margaery's way was too superior to Sansa.   Look at where Margaery wound up.   According to 3x08, the Cersei v. Margaery feud was well known at Court, to the point where courtiers were choosing sides (represented by the style they chose).

I don't think Sansa considered Dany mad, just power hungry, again, I don't think that would matter to her, but Dany wants the Land's Sansa considers her families.  Sansa didn't endure everything she did just to hand everything over to Daenaerys Targaryen.

Dany thought all she had to do was win over Jon, she was very much mistaken.  Littlefinger, Varys, Olenna, Margaery, Ellaria and Cersei have all proven, you don't have to be at the top of the power totem to hurt a King or Queen.

Sansa did roll the dice but Dany and she had chatted and Dany admitted she dropped everything over her love for Jon (pity she wouldn't give up the North, that would have solved all Sansa hostility) so Sansa was probably more outwardly hostile then she normally would have been, counting on Dany's feelings for Jon to keep her from doing anything drastic.  It's what Margaery was counting on w/ Tommen and Cersei.   It worked for one but not for the other.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Advance35

[TheGreenKnight]

15 hours ago, slf said:

Sansa being rude is only a risk if you're making the argument that Dany is already unstable and willing to do something aggressive because one person doesn't like her.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If the character's rudeness is founded in her belief that Dany is unstable and violent, a danger to them all, then that just makes her behavior idiotic because it makes it more likely that feared instability and violence will be aimed at her and her family.

15 hours ago, Indi said:

I think they were perfectly justifiable and, IMO, it wouldn't have made sense for Sansa to accept Dany's rule lying down. Jon betrayed the North and she did, what she felt was right, to challenge Dany's claim.

For me they aren't considering she was not made the leader of the North and taking matters into her own hands would make her a traitor in her own way, no?

5 hours ago, Indi said:

I never wanted Dany or Sansa on the IT, so... Luckily one of them is not even trying. There was only one queen worthy of the IT for me and she's dead. RIP Margaery.

I would've been fine with any of the three on the throne at the end of the story--if there was going to be someone on a throne--at least before the last two episodes put me against Sansa and the last episode against Dany. The Tyrells + Renly and Brienne were my favorite group on the show in general, but I knew they wouldn't survive to the end.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, TheGreenKnight said:

That doesn't make any sense at all. If the character's rudeness is founded in her belief that Dany is unstable and violent, a danger to them all, then that just makes her behavior idiotic because it makes it more likely that feared instability and violence will be aimed at her and her family.

I think that's what they meant. Sansa *didn't* think Dany was unstable or violent--at least, not violent beyond anybody else. She didn't see her as Ramsey Bolton II, iow, just someone she didn't want to rule over the North, which would be true of probably most people who showed up as a ruler. She obviously didn't think that her laying out that she wanted Northern opinion would make Dany start chopping off heads or anything. Which it didn't.

Margery would have handled things very differently and she handled most things well, but Margery was also playing from a different position. She was always staying in the lane of queen as pretty figurehead who didn't have any actual power except she really really did. Classic KL two-facedness (compare her to Lyanna's reaction to Sansa's compliments about her being pretty!). Sansa wasn't trying to manipulate Dany, she was talking to her as one of the lords and ladies of the North. It was just when she told Tyrion who Jon was that she was lobbing out something she hoped would make the foundation of Dany's power weaker

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It was put out now because Dany had come to Winterfell with Jon having just bowed to her and Sansa, instead, was saying the North wanted independence. It would be far harder to talk about independence *after* Dany had declared herself the ruler of 7 kingdoms. It would never happen then.

I really don't see why. Once Dany had the job of rebuilding and ruling the 7 kingdoms -- a hard job -- she might be like "ok Sansa, run this for me for 5 years and if you do a good job, I will give you independence.   Happy to be free of one of the kingdoms. 

But even so, why do they need independence with a just ruler as the queen? At this point as I understand it they don't really have independence, they just haven't been smacked back by Cersie yet. Surely they can be reasonable. 

I can't see Dany in any position to grant independence before she gets on the iron throne. Only after, as she sees all the variables can she reasonably make that decision. IMHO anyone with a lick of sense should know that and not be like "hi I am Sansa Stark, I demand northern independence!!" Yeh that is how you make friends. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I really don't see why. Once Dany had the job of rebuilding and ruling the 7 kingdoms -- a hard job -- she might be like "ok Sansa, run this for me for 5 years and if you do a good job, I will give you independence.   Happy to be free of one of the kingdoms. 

I think the standard rule of thumb is that it's always much harder to take something away once someone has it than it is to not give it to them. There's really no reason to think Dany would want to give away a kingdom she's already won. Even if she hated running it it would be a big show of weakness to give it up and then everyone would want it.

5 minutes ago, BooBear said:

But even so, why do they need independence with a just ruler as the queen? At this point as I understand it they don't really have independence, they just haven't been smacked back by Cersie yet. Surely they can be reasonable. 

They can't count on any ruler being just in their eyes forever.  And even a just ruler might have something they want from the North that's good for the ruler and not for them. They've now declared themselves independent and have fought for it somewhat already. One could say it's more reasonable for Dany to give them independence. Depends on the pov.

9 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I can't see Dany in any position to grant independence before she gets on the iron throne. Only after, as she sees all the variables can she reasonably make that decision. IMHO anyone with a lick of sense should know that and not be like "hi I am Sansa Stark, I demand northern independence!!" Yeh that is how you make friends. 

She can make that decision now by telling the North what she will do when she wins the throne. Once she's on the throne the variables are far more on Dany's side because she's got everything and has very little reason to give anything up. Even inertia is on her side. When she's on her way up and hoping the North will support her strongly she's got reason to consider the value of bargaining for allies over subjects.

[ShellsandCheese]

One thing to remember is that the North hasn’t been independent for over 300 years. Even in the showverse, they are technically still in open rebelllion against the crown. They aren’t independent so Dany would not have been taking anything away. That’s why Sansa should have dealt with Dany from a position of let me tell you how an independent north works to your advantage and how that will help you against Cersei. Sansa should have offered something in exchange for independence (assuming Dany would claim the throne). Honestly, all of Sansa’s and Dany’s interactions were absolutely stupid to me - and framed in a way that suggested that neither was capable of having an actual conversation. Which again made no sense. 

Also, the current generation of Northerners have shown that they are more than willing to throw their lot in with the person with more power. Less we forget, they didn’t example line up to help the Starks / Jon take back Winterfell. Why is that? Probably because some of the other families are sick of being under the boot of the Starks. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[BooBear]

12 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Honestly, all of Sansa’s and Dany’s interactions were absolutely stupid to me - and framed in a way that suggested that neither was capable of having an actual conversation. Which again made no sense. 

Yes, everything that happened seemed rushed and stupid. 

[slf]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that's what they meant. Sansa *didn't* think Dany was unstable or violent--at least, not violent beyond anybody else. She didn't see her as Ramsey Bolton II, iow, just someone she didn't want to rule over the North, which would be true of probably most people who showed up as a ruler. She obviously didn't think that her laying out that she wanted Northern opinion would make Dany start chopping off heads or anything. Which it didn't.

Exactly. Sansa rightly pegged Dany as wanting power but nothing suggested she thought that Dany would turn around and slaughter them if they didn't smile enough. We've seen how Sansa acts around people she knows will lash out violently against her; generally, she tells them what they want to hear and keeps her head down.

[Advance35]

Well, not the best series finale in history but as a Sansa fan I am pleased.

She succeeded where many had not.  The North is independent and she is a literal Queen. LMAO.  I didn't see it coming.

Her hair looked flawless and I loved everything about her look at her coronation.   The hair, the dress (she is also the fashion queen of the continent) and even her crown.

I like to imagine, she goes on to rule and has lovely dalliances with that gentleman from Dorne.  He was cute.

Most of all, I'm just glad to finally know how it ends.  For years, the consensus was Sansa wouldn't live to the end of the story.  That she would die by the hands of a better "player" or she would fall during the invasion of the Others.

We now know she not only lives, she THRIVES.  Outlives her enemies and becomes a Queen in her own right.

I felt a little bad for Jon but he seemed happier than he had been in a long time.  And he's into Wilding girls so he'll meet someone else and find happiness.

So much to process.   Of course Sansa is trending world wide.  So is Jon Snow, Tyrion and Bran.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Advance35

[slf]

I'm just happy Sansa doesn't have to deal with any of those assholes ever again!

[Minneapple]

Sansa outlived all her abusers and crowned herself queen in the north. I believe this is an appropriate time to say "Yaaas Kween."

[Advance35]

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I'm just happy Sansa doesn't have to deal with any of those assholes ever again!

True but she has some nice connections.  The King. Hand of the King, Lord Robyn, Lord Royce, Edmure Tully (LOL when she told him to sit down).

And I maintain one of my favorite little Sansa characteristics is her sewing.  You KNOW she made her own coronation dress, which makes it even more awesome.

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Sansa outlived all her abusers and crowned herself queen in the north. I believe this is an appropriate time to say "Yaaas Kween."

Abusers, political enemies, rival courtiers.  Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay, Roose, Myranda, Lysa, Tywin, Daenaerys.  All gone while Sansa continues 🙂

I'm so happy.

[merrick715]

There's my girl, surviving and thriving. I wish Sansa's arc was better executed, but I appreciate the show for giving me Sansa's ending.  

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

True but she has some nice connections.  The King. Hand of the King, Lord Robyn, Lord Royce, Edmure Tully (LOL when she told him to sit down).

And I maintain one of my favorite little Sansa characteristics is her sewing.  You KNOW she made her own coronation dress, which makes it even more awesome.

I always feel so bad for show Edmure. The show did him so dirty. I'm pretty sure Sansa makes some of her sibling's clothes. I know she made sew something for Jon in season six. Sansa should have known something was up when Bran asked her to make something for him, as they were traveling to Kings Landing. 😉 Sansa's coronation gown was gorgeous. 

[Minneapple]

I loved the coronation gown with the weirwood leaves on it! 

I know people disagree but I still think Sansa could end up as a version of Cersei in the books. I honestly don't even care much, I just want her to get some degree of agency, and on the show her ending is the definition of having agency. So it makes me happy, and it makes me hopeful for her book arc if we ever get the books.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Minneapple

[Snowball II]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

I loved the coronation gown with the weirwood leaves on it! 

That was a nice touch.  Sansa went from being an idealistic young girl in love with the South, to embracing her true, Northern self...and using some of those Southern techniques, when she needs to.  Awesome. 🙂

[Advance35]

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That was a nice touch.  Sansa went from being an idealistic young girl in love with the South, to embracing her true, Northern self...and using some of those Southern techniques, when she needs to.  Awesome. 🙂

And I found it interesting that Sansa pointed out that Bran might not be the best choice because he couldn't father Children.  Clearly succession is something Sansa takes into consideration, so I don't doubt it is something she is thinking about in terms of her own Kingdom.

I think she will have children of her own someday.   She's just going to be extremely careful about whom they are with.  In my head cannon, the Dornish Gentleman at the Council Meeting comes up to the North for trade agreements and over time.........he keeps coming back 🙂

I also think she will have a life-long friendship with Tyrion Lannister and that's not something I thought would happen 😉 

There have been so many issues with the writing this season and things being rushed but I can't get over how happy I was for Sansa's conclusion.  She's spent so long being powerless and in all honesty, I didn't think she would get Norther Independence.  But her character never gave up which I love.   In the halls of power, the most maligned were Sansa, Tyrion, Podrick and Brienne,  It's startling to see them all having outlasted the other "players."  If Tywin, Cersei, Jamie "girls like Sansa don't tend to live very long", Joffrey, Littlefinger, Olenna, Margaery, Roose, Ramsay could see her now.

I also like that she and Jon parted on good terms, he doesn't like what she did and he doesn't like that she broke his confidence but I think he knows who Sansa is, good and bad.  And I think the thought of what Dany would have inevitably done to Sansa, is one of the reason he took the actions he did.

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I always feel so bad for show Edmure. The show did him so dirty. I'm pretty sure Sansa makes some of her sibling's clothes. I know she made sew something for Jon in season six. Sansa should have known something was up when Bran asked her to make something for him, as they were traveling to Kings Landing. 😉 Sansa's coronation gown was gorgeous. 

From Season 4 forward, her style game has been on point. lol.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Advance35

[GodsBeloved]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Sansa outlived all her abusers and crowned herself queen in the north. I believe this is an appropriate time to say "Yaaas Kween."

[Eyes High]

As someone who's bagged on Sansa's hideous costumes in previous seasons, she looked amazing in Season 8. That coronation dress was perfection, and I loved the weirwood leaf details embroidered inside the sleeves. It was hard to get a good look at it with the lighting, though.

Michele Clapton has said a few times that Sansa's tight dresses, belts and corsets are intended to be a visual shorthand indicating that she never intends anyone to touch her again, and her coronation dress is tight with a corset. So I guess being extremely single for the rest of her life is Sansa's endgame, and she'll cross the succession bridge when she comes to it.

I really thought they were going somewhere with Sansa/Tyrion, but they definitely zigged instead of zagging on that one (with Tyrion confessing his love for Dany to Jon). At least they seem to be on good terms at the end.

[Drogo]

And so Sansa's story ends the same way it began:  throwing a tantrum and being over-indulged by her family (anything to shut her up.)

[Advance35]

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Michele Clapton has said a few times that Sansa's tight dresses, belts and corsets are intended to be a visual shorthand indicating that she never intends anyone to touch her again, and her coronation dress is tight with a corset. So I guess being extremely single for the rest of her life is Sansa's endgame, and she'll cross the succession bridge when she comes to it.

For some reason I don't buy Sansa not having kids.  It certainly won't be about love, though I think she'll let whomever the guy is, think it's love.  

Succession is on her mind because she brought it up with Bran, I just think she's going to be incredibly mercenary about whom she chooses.

I nominate the hottie from Dorne.

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At least they seem to be on good terms at the end.

He is SO going to be visiting Wintefell in my headcannon of what comes next.

[slf]

I'm actually really happy they didn't pair Sansa with anyone. The show has flirted with the idea of Sansa with Tyrion and Sandor so I was glad they had her, politely, give them both the brush-off.

For Sansa, marriage and children don't necessarily have to go hand in hand. She could have children with a lover (or lovers) then legitimize them, without marrying the father(s). But I feel like she was definitely being set up for some Elizabeth l style Queenship: one mistress, no master.

[ElizaD]

12 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

For some reason I don't buy Sansa not having kids.  It certainly won't be about love, though I think she'll let whomever the guy is, think it's love.

It's now my fanon that after a reasonable amount of time has passed, maybe 10 years, she'll have reached a point where she feels secure enough to choose a suitable (hunky, dim, less powerful) man for an affair and then legitimize her bastard as is now her right as queen. She might take some of Cersei's season 2 advice to only love her children, but despite Sansa's plotting I think her scenes this season with her siblings and outsiders like Brienne show that she'll nonetheless be capable of feeling greater trust and affection than Cersei was. After being all about Northern independence and actually winning it, I think Sansa will eventually decide to continue the Stark royal line since Bran cannot and Arya/Jon are gone so their children aren't an option as her heirs.

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

It's now my fanon that after a reasonable amount of time has passed, maybe 10 years, she'll have reached a point where she feels secure enough to choose a suitable (hunky, dim, less powerful) man for an affair and then legitimize her bastard as is now her right as queen. She might take some of Cersei's season 2 advice to only love her children, but despite Sansa's plotting I think her scenes this season with her siblings and outsiders like Brienne show that she'll nonetheless be capable of feeling greater trust and affection than Cersei was. After being all about Northern independence and actually winning it, I think Sansa will eventually decide to continue the Stark royal line since Bran cannot and Arya/Jon are gone so their children aren't an option as her heirs.

Those who want to imagine that Sansa eventually has children are free to do so, just as Jonsa shippers are free to imagine that Jon does a U-turn immediately after heading into the far North to be by Sansa's side, or Gendrya shippers are free to imagine that Gendry secretly stowed away on Arya's ship, but the fact that Sansa in her final scene is still dressing in a manner that indicates she never intends to be touched ever again, including a cage-like corset, does not indicate that that is a likely outcome. Queen Elizabeth never had children, either.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[ShellsandCheese]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

And so Sansa's story ends the same way it began:  throwing a tantrum and being over-indulged by her family (anything to shut her up.)

Thank you! I do not understand all of the people who are like Sansa deserved to be Queen in the North. Why? What did she do? Her brother was made King of the Seven Kingdoms and he basically handed her independence on a platter. If I'm Dorne or the Iron Islands - I'm pissed.

Also, I think her ending is one of the few that is actually bittersweet. She's QITN for now but she really has lost her entire family. I know some people say she'll have children but I don't see that happening, she's too damaged. Maybe Sam should have suggested democracy and therapy for all involved. LOL. 

Although I will admit that I don't care for Sophie Clark has an actress, and I've never been impressed with her portrayal as Sansa. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[merrick715]

16 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Thank you! I do not understand all of the people who are like Sansa deserved to be Queen in the North. Why? What did she do? Her brother was made King of the Seven Kingdoms and he basically handed her independence on a platter. If I'm Dorne or the Iron Islands - I'm pissed.

Why is Gendry Baratheon the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands? Why is that guy the ruling Prince of Dorne? Why is Edmure Tully the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands? Why is Bronn the Warden of the South? Why is Robert Arryn the Warden of the East? Why is Tyrion is Lannister the Warden of the west? Why is Yara Greyjoy the rulers of the Iron Islands? Why did you think Daenerys Targaryen should be the Queen of the seven kingdoms? None of these people have their positions because of merit. They simply have the correct last name.

As the saying goes, a closed mouth doesn't get fed. Perhaps Dorne and the Iron Islands should have spoken up too.

[Minneapple]

39 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Although I will admit that I don't care for Sophie Clark has an actress, and I've never been impressed with her portrayal as Sansa. 

Sophie Turner.

[Advance35]

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None of these people have their positions because of merit. They simply have the correct last name.

As the saying goes, a closed mouth doesn't get fed. Perhaps Dorne and the Iron Islands should have spoken up too.

And made noise about getting what they want.   Sansa didn't have dragons or powers, what she had was a nose for opportunity.   She saw a chance to swing the race and she took it.  To her benefit.

Such is the Game of Thrones, of which Sansa, is one of the winners. lol.

I'm glad she never gave up on what she wanted.  And the ending was oblique enough that those who like to picture Sansa going on to meet someone she is willing to have a family with and those that picture her being a spinster can head cannon all they like.

I picture her meeting a Northern Lord that looks like Charlie Hunnam from King Arthur Legend of the Sword or Travis Fimmel who played Ragnar Lothbrook from Vikings.  Or his on-screen son Bjorn. 

[Indi]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

And I found it interesting that Sansa pointed out that Bran might not be the best choice because he couldn't father Children.  Clearly succession is something Sansa takes into consideration, so I don't doubt it is something she is thinking about in terms of her own Kingdom.

I think she will have children of her own someday.   She's just going to be extremely careful about whom they are with.  In my head cannon, the Dornish Gentleman at the Council Meeting comes up to the North for trade agreements and over time.........he keeps coming back 🙂

Exactly, Sansa is well aware, that she can't let the Stark line die out. I'm not saying she will be enthusiastic about it, but I know she will be smart and choose wisely: someone, who wouldn't have power over her. She's supposed to mirror Elizabeth I according to some, but it doesn't have to be an exact mirror image.

I didn't love the finale, it was just okay, but I did love her storyline in the episode. I like that she didn't attempt a power grab, like Edmure, and that her insistence about the free North was independent of the ruler in KL. Of course, it was easier to ask Bran than power hungry Dany, but the fact that she succeeded and kept her oath to her people proves to me that she will be an excellent queen. 

[nilyank]

26 minutes ago, Indi said:

Exactly, Sansa is well aware, that she can't let the Stark line die out. I'm not saying she will be enthusiastic about it, but I know she will be smart and choose wisely: someone, who wouldn't have power over her. She's supposed to mirror Elizabeth I according to some, but it doesn't have to be an exact mirror image.

Bran can't have children. 

Jon isn't supposed to get married and have kids as part of the Night Watch (which really doesn't exist anymore).

Arya has sailed off to parts unknown.

Not knowing what her siblings may or may not procreate, she will know that she should have her own heirs and carry the Stark name. She won't need to marry. Just find a lover that she is comfortable with and legitimize any children she has.

Unlike the Sixth Kingdoms, there isn"t going to be a team of nobles voting for their next ruler.

[Indi]

10 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Bran can't have children. 

Jon isn't supposed to get married and have kids as part of the Night Watch (which really doesn't exist anymore).

Arya has sailed off to parts unknown.

Not knowing what her siblings may or may not procreate, she will know that she should have her own heirs and carry the Stark name. She won't need to marry. Just find a lover that she is comfortable with and legitimize any children she has.

Unlike the Sixth Kingdoms, there isn"t going to be a team of nobles voting for their next ruler.

I actually like the idea of a lover. I don't know if Sansa would do that, but sure, why not? I also imagine her marrying some acceptable Lord from a minor noble house and make her husband take the Stark name.

[Stallion12]

The way it ended, my theory of sequel spinoffs seems more likely, it felt very open ended. Seems like the outrage wasn't as big as I thought, though most I know hated it.

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Those who want to imagine that Sansa eventually has children are free to do so, just as Jonsa shippers are free to imagine that Jon does a U-turn immediately after heading into the far North to be by Sansa's side, or Gendrya shippers are free to imagine that Gendry secretly stowed away on Arya's ship, but the fact that Sansa in her final scene is still dressing in a manner that indicates she never intends to be touched ever again, including a cage-like corset, does not indicate that that is a likely outcome. Queen Elizabeth never had children, either.

Just because Queen Elizabeth never had children doesn't mean she didn't have any lovers. 

And, everything from now is imagination and fanfic. Her dress in the finale does not set the rest of her life in stone. I think she could definitely choose to have a paramour and children in the future. 

I will add that nothing was better in the finale than Sansa telling Edmure to sit down.

[Maximum Taco]

45 minutes ago, nilyank said:

Bran can't have children. 

Jon isn't supposed to get married and have kids as part of the Night Watch (which really doesn't exist anymore).

Arya has sailed off to parts unknown.

Not knowing what her siblings may or may not procreate, she will know that she should have her own heirs and carry the Stark name. She won't need to marry. Just find a lover that she is comfortable with and legitimize any children she has.

The issue with legitimizing bastards is it can cause issues of succession later on.

Jon has sworn not to marry, hold lands and father children. Sure we can believe he'll hold to those vows, but after 10 years of living in the Rrrrrrreal North, what if he decides to just forget them and shack up with another kissed by fire wildling girl? I mean I have a hard time believing there's gonna be a super disciplined Night's Watch that has no actual duty. Without duty it's hard to believe that many will hold to their vows (especially when most Night's Watchmen would sneak off to Mole Town every so often when they did have a job.) Any bastard fathered by Jon could claim just as much legitimacy as any mothered by Sansa.

Bran may be incapable of having children. I mean I don't know where that's coming from, he hasn't actually tried, and paralyzed people can still have sex. The plumbing still works even if there are issues. 

Arya has sailed to parts unknown, and yeah there's good reason to believe she isn't coming back because no one ever has come back from the Sunset Sea. (Seriously Arya is dumb, like just truly moronic. What's West of Westeros? DEATH. Death is West of Westeros you dummy.) But I mean she's only 20, she could easily still have a child who again could be just as legitimate as any of Sansa's children if they turn up in White Harbor with her Direwolf Ship. 

Or any of those above scenarios, and it's just someone lying about being a son/daughter of Jon/Arya/Bran. Or even Robb, I mean he's of the age where he could have a bastard son somewhere in the world. Someone could just lie and claim to be the Young Wolf's issue.  

Sansa's smart and knows this, I can't see her relying on a Queen's proclamation to legitimize her children, that backfired HARD on the Blackfyres. If she wants an heir I expect her to just marry someone who she knows she can control. There are plenty of Mace Tyrell style dummys in Westeros. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Advance35]

J

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ust because Queen Elizabeth never had children doesn't mean she didn't have any lovers. 

And, everything from now is imagination and fanfic. Her dress in the finale does not set the rest of her life in stone. I think she could definitely choose to have a paramour and children in the future. 

I also found the dress interesting because for so long, Sansa has been wearing dark colors and attire that always seemed combative.  In a way, maybe it was just the color, the dress seemed a little more comfortable for her.   Maybe now that the North is Independent and for the forseeable future she doesn't need to fear the Iron Throne, she feels a sense of safety.

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Sansa's smart and knows this, I can't see her relying on a Queen's proclamation to legitimize her children, that backfired HARD on the Blackfyres. If she wants an heir I expect her to just marry someone who she knows she can control. There are plenty of Mace Tyrell style dummys in Westeros. 

She'll be strategic but I think whomever she chooses will have something to offer.  Not a Mace Tyrell idiot but not a Baelish.   She'll want him to have connections and to be advantageous politically, but not so much he would want his House to supplant hers.

I don't doubt there are interesting times ahead for Sansa Stark. LOL

[Eyes High]

39 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

And, everything from now is imagination and fanfic. Her dress in the finale does not set the rest of her life in stone. I think she could definitely choose to have a paramour and children in the future. 

And you can think that, but it’s just as much fanfic as Jon turning back moments after we cut away from him and rushing back to Sansa’s side to declare his love eternal, and it’s just about as likely given the ending we saw. The costuming was a clear signal.

I said a while ago that assuming D&D knew from early on that Sansa’s endgame was as the forever single Lady of Winterfell (as I then believed) that they probably chose to swap Sansa in for Jeyne in the rape storyline by way of explanation why she would reject any further marriage or relationship. I also suggested that Sansa would never want to remarry or have another relationship given her experience with Ramsay. I got a lot of flak for it (how dare I suggest that women can never move on from trauma, what a horrible message that would be for rape survivors, etc. etc.), but it seems now that that early intuition was correct. Sansa ends up as the untouchable ice queen grateful to her abusers for toughening her up, because I guess D&D deal in those sorts of absolutes.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

And you can think that, but it’s just as much fanfic as Jon turning back moments after we cut away from him and rushing back to Sansa’s side to declare his love eternal, and it’s just about as likely given the ending we saw. The costuming was a clear signal.

And I will think that (not that Jon will turn around, but that Sansa would eventually consider having a lover and possibly children), just as you can think that Sansa will be a single childless lady forever. That's why we are all here: to discuss our different interpretations of the text.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Minneapple

[Eyes High]

7 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

And I will think that, just as you can think that Sansa will be a single childless lady forever. That's why we are all here: to discuss this.

Yes, but the ending as strongly implied supports the forever single childless lady endgame and not yours, just as it doesn't imply Jon rushing back to Sansa because he's madly in love with her. That was my point. Sansa could have kids or get married, but that is certainly not what's implied, no more than Jon ditching out on the far Northerners so that he can finally marry Sansa.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, but the ending as strongly implied supports the forever single childless lady endgame and not yours, just as it doesn't imply Jon rushing back to Sansa because he's madly in love with her. That was my point.

Strongly implies does not mean it's set in stone; it doesn't mean it can't or won't change. Unless we get a spinoff of Sansa being Queen in the North 10 years from now, we won't know and we can discuss and imagine to our heart's content.

[Constantinople]

31 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon has sworn not to marry, hold lands and father children. Sure we can believe he'll hold to those vows, but after 10 years of living in the Rrrrrrreal North, what if he decides to just forget them and shack up with another kissed by fire wildling girl? I mean I have a hard time believing there's gonna be a super disciplined Night's Watch that has no actual duty. Without duty it's hard to believe that many will hold to their vows (especially when most Night's Watchmen would sneak off to Mole Town every so often when they did have a job.) Any bastard fathered by Jon could claim just as much legitimacy as any mothered by Sansa

I'm just assuming that sometime in the future, someone will come from North of the Wall claiming to be Rhaegar's grandson, whether or not Jon actually has kids with Ygritte II: Electric Boogaloo

[Maximum Taco]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, but the ending as strongly implied supports the forever single childless lady endgame and not yours, just as it doesn't imply Jon rushing back to Sansa because he's madly in love with her. That was my point. Sansa could have kids or get married, but that is certainly not what's implied, no more than Jon ditching out on the far Northerners so that he can finally marry Sansa.

I mean, her clothing definitely implies that she's creating distance between herself and anyone else. 

But when Bran is suggested for King, one of her main objections is that he can't have heirs, if she means to be Queen of her own Kingdom, she must also be aware that it's an issue for her as well if she is deliberately choosing to remain unmarried.

[Indi]

Nothing about the finale implies that Sansa will remain unmarried. I am sure she'll form her own pack in the near future.

[Eyes High]

30 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Strongly implies does not mean it's set in stone; it doesn't mean it can't or won't change. Unless we get a spinoff of Sansa being Queen in the North 10 years from now, we won't know and we can discuss and imagine to our heart's content.

Sure, but that's fanfic, no more and no less, and it's fanfic on the level of Bronn stabbing Tyrion minutes after we cut away from the small council meeting and declaring himself his replacement. Could it happen? It's not impossible. Is it at all likely to happen, given what we've seen? No.

24 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I mean, her clothing definitely implies that she's creating distance between herself and anyone else. 

Michele Clapton has said more than once since S7 that Sansa's costuming is supposed to indicate that she's closing herself off to the possibility of physical touch. And there was no softening of that in S8. Instead, she graduated from tight belts to full-on armour-type corsets. Even in her "softer" scenes with Jon and Theon and even after Dany's death, she's still wearing armour-type outfits. One would have expected some hints from Sansa's costuming if her outlook towards being touched again was changing. Instead, she went the opposite direction. In her very last scene of the show, her corset looks like a cage. She didn't have "Sansa will never marry, fall in love or have sex ever again" embroidered on her clothes, but she might as well have.

Also, visually, Sansa's coronation scene seemed to have intentional nods to Elizabeth's coronation scene in the 1998 movie Elizabeth (including Sansa wearing her hair long), as well as the final scene in that film after Elizabeth has transformed herself into the untouchable, unfeeling Virgin Queen who forever turns her back on love. D&D directed the scene, so if that's the vibe they wanted to create and the comparison they intended to invoke, I think my interpretation is indeed the correct one.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[MadameKillerB]

I mentioned this in the episode thread but I really loved the way clothes were used to mirror what's going on with Sansa.

She has emulated those around her in the past. But this dress integrated her family history and her own personal life experiences. She has created herself.  I absolutely loved it.

I will miss Sophie Turner's playfulness behind the scenes and her fierceness on screen. 

[Advance35]

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But when Bran is suggested for King, one of her main objections is that he can't have heirs, if she means to be Queen of her own Kingdom, she must also be aware that it's an issue for her as well if she is deliberately choosing to remain unmarried.

This is what made me think Sansa hasn't closed the door on having children.  Succession is on her mind.   She is also, repentantly pro-Stark.   I see her wanting the Stark blood line to continue and I think she is willing to do whatever she has too, in service to that.

Now Sansa finding the right guy and arranging things to her liking will probably be a saga unto itself, but for the sake of power continuing to reside with House Stark, I think she will take a lover and have children some day. 

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Nothing about the finale implies that Sansa will remain unmarried. I am sure she'll form her own pack in the near future.

I agree.  I think the decision will pure mercenary at first but she might soften and allow herself a genuine connection one day.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Advance35

[Minneapple]

49 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but that's fanfic, no more and no less, and it's fanfic on the level of Bronn stabbing Tyrion minutes after we cut away from the small council meeting and declaring himself his replacement. Could it happen? It's not impossible. Is it at all likely to happen, given what we've seen? No.

Nothing is likely to happen because there is no show anymore and everything is fanfic now. Sansa noted that Bran can't have kids, so clearly she knows having heirs will be a concern for her in the future.

[Heckler52317]

Sansa has the tiger by the tail. Shifting feckless Northern lords, Robyn raiding for Moon Door candidates, Iron Born raping and reaving- I wish her the best. 

[Smad]

On 5/20/2019 at 8:15 PM, MadameKillerB said:

I will miss Sophie Turner's playfulness behind the scenes and her fierceness on screen.

Something that I didn't notice until s8 was her posture. OMG I'm envious of her posture in S8. In the early Seasons she was slouching which makes sense due to her circumstances. And I don't remember her doing it in S7, probably due to the fur where it's less noticeable. But in S8, whether standing or sitting, her posture was amazing.

I think Sansa has a little time before she has to think about heirs. She needs to take care of far more important things right now. With Brienne gone she needs a Queensguard. She needs a council. The North needs rebuilding after years of wars. But eventually she has to unless she adopts the same new rule as the 6 Kingdoms where the new ruler is voted for. In which case there is no hurry where heirs are concerned.