S05.E05: King Of Norway

[NutMeg]

I think YA Nucky was dubbed by Buscemi

 

makes total sense given how spot on the voice was (and voice don;t change that much once you're an adult, do they).

 

I still felt bad for Steve Buscemi, who looked better than that in his youth, although if he was in on the joke that makes it all right.

[RealityGal]

It is a pity that the threw history out the window with this depiction of the Maranzano hit as a Chicago style drive by. Everyone knows that he was shot in his office by Jewish gun men pretending to be IRS agents.

Very disappointing.

 

I don't think Maranzano dies in this drive by, and he actually seemed to know about it.  It seemed directed at Nucky, since after Nucky asked about where Torio was, Maranzano saw the cars pull up and said something like "well here is his message now" or something to that effect.  Maranzano was facing the window, so he saw the car pull up, if he wasn't expecting it, he seems wiley enough  to, upon seeing a car full of people he wasn't expecting stop, to at least panic.  It was Nucky who had his back to the window, so he didn't seem to know what was happening.

[terrymct]

(Stupid Question) So, did that old lady live under the boardwalk or something? I know that sounds crazy, but it seemed like she was always hanging out under there.

 

She said that she came down to the water to go crabbing.   It's not unusual for retirees or elderly people to crab or fish most days.

[Aprilshowers]

 

Van Alden and Eli are just the best!  I can believe I've grown to love an unhinged, psychotic, former Prohibition agent, and Nucky's treacherous, drunken, younger brother, but I do.  I want these two crazy bastards to make it!

 

OMG me too!! What kind of person does that make me? heh 

 

 

I want a Van Alden-Sigrid-Eli spin-off.

 

That would be nothing short of amazing, and for some reason they all have to live together...

 

 

I liked Margaret's "take the check and stfu." That was the end of that.

 

Me too, I've always liked Margaret well most of the time. She's not playing the victim and taking charge of her life. Now if only Nucky and her can find a way back. Yeah I know ain't gonna happen.

 

 

Young Nucky, with the lady under the pier, first with the hog, then with the guy.  In the first moment, I thought it was going to flash to when Richard was found.

 

So did I, but realized the time line wasn't right. 

 

 

I think YA Nucky was dubbed by Buscemi - and what an overbite out of nowhere. Youngest Nucky had ok teeth. Distracting.

 

Yes me too, for some reason I was going back and forth saying is that SB under really convincing makeup? Teeth were not a good choice, they shouldn't have been that prominent and it did detract me from the story a little.

[NutMeg]

I sooo liked Margaret in that scene. If there was a reason why she was kept despite being so lackluster recently, that was it! And the 25 cents to the dollar was a great idea indeed!

 

Seems we'll get to see the infamous Nucky purveying Gillian to the Commodore. Only way it would add something is if there is more to the story than we've been told so far, but I'm at a loss as to what that could be.    

[Avaleigh]

I think what made Sigrid especially hard to take in this episode is that she was taking out her frustrations on everyone even the people who didn't deserve it. She was horrible to pregnant June who went out of her way to be friendly and she was sour with her kids particularly the daughter. I thought it was sad the way that she treated the daughter she's taken care of since the girl was a baby and she comes across as so resentful and put upon. That the girl (I can't remember her name) feels that she needs to almost immediately explain to a first time guest that this woman isn't really her mother and that her real mother was some lovely ballerina who died--IDK, I felt like that said something about their relationship and that they don't have an especially close mother/daughter relationship. Van Alden isn't father of the year by any means but at least some protective instinct seemed to kick in when Sigrid started dropping f-bombs and the scene seemed like it had the potential to maybe even get physical. Whether or not it was sincere his comment about a child of either sex being a blessing was appreciated in the moment since Sigrid was close to giving the impression that she'd happily ditch them all if given an attractive enough chance. We never did find out anything about her past, did we? I always thought it was strange that she was so willing to run with Nelson and fully commit herself to him and the identity change after knowing him for such a short while. (Not to mention the fact that it was always obvious that he'd never be a barrel of laughs nor would she have reason to think that he'd be on the path to big money.)

 

I honestly can't tell how hurt Van Alden is over all of this at the end of the day. He definitely comes across as being sick of Sigrid too and part of me feels like he's mainly upset over the fact that it was Eli and over the fact that the situation isn't something that can be ignored or easily moved on from because a scene was created in front of everyone who matters to the situation. It's messy and I think he really dislikes messy. Emotionally though I'm not sure how much of a blow this was. He seemed like he felt about a thousand times worse when Mrs. Van Alden found out about Lucy and the baby.

 

Did anyone else find Young Nucky's Mabel a little insufferable? She seemed defiant to daddy just for the sake of being defiant: I smoked a cigarette anyway. Ugh.

Yeah, I definitely imagined her in a different way when characters would talk about her in the first two seasons of the show. Gillian referred to her once as a "saint" and Eli too seemed to think of her as having once been a kind and calming presence in Nucky's life. I sort of imagined someone sweet, delicate, and maybe a little dreamy. This Mabel seems to have such a strong character it's hard for me to imagine her getting to the point where she retreats to a fantasy world before eventually killing herself after the tragic death of her premature baby. 

 

ETA:

 

Seems we'll get to see the infamous Nucky purveying Gillian to the Commodore. Only way it would add something is if there is more to the story than we've been told so far, but I'm at a loss as to what that could be.

 

 

Taking this to the Spoiler Thread.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Avaleigh

[A Boston Gal]

IIRC in each episode this season where Eli has been featured they've shown this short montage of him drinking heavily, listening to music, and having sex with some unseen woman. At the time I thought he was just having sex with prostitutes but the reveal in this episode implies that he was with Sigrid all of the times they showed those clips.

Avaleigh, I feel so silly that I didn't pick up on that. I guess those "hallucination" scenes were just too out there for me to process correctly. Bravo to all of you who caught that, and boy, do I feel dumb! :(

 

The scene with the Commodore, Young Adult Nucky and Leander was a boast-worthy moment for the show's casting director, who found believable and age-appropriate reincarnations not only of  Dabney Coleman and Steve Buscemi, but of Dominic Chianese as well.

Edited October 7, 2014 by A Boston Gal

[Drogo]

 

Teeth were not a good choice

 

Sad to report, those are Marc Pickering's actual teeth.  Not falsies. 

[A Boston Gal]

Sad to report, those are Marc Pickering's actual teeth.  Not falsies. 

Well, at least we now know it wasn't a misguided wardrobe choice.  Drogo, did Buscemi  dub Pickerings voice, do you know?

[Drogo]

That's Mr. Pickering as well... he's doing a great job of mimicking Buscemi and at the same time - covering his own British accent.

[Aprilshowers]

 

Sad to report, those are Marc Pickering's actual teeth.  Not falsies.

 

I had never heard of or seen this lad before so did not know that.  Having said that he nailed SB's mannerisms

[txhorns79]

This Mabel seems to have such a strong character it's hard for me to imagine her getting to the point where she retreats to a fantasy world before eventually killing herself after the tragic death of her premature baby.

 

I can imagine your child dying shortly after birth could undo even the strongest person.  Childbirth takes a lot out of a person to begin with, and it is possible Mabel was already depressed due to postpartum depression, made significantly worse by her child dying.  So in her mind, the child dying was confirmation she's a horrible mother and she sees nothing beyond that darkness. 

 

Having said all that, I agree that the 1897 version of Mabel seems insufferable, but perhaps she came off differently to other people.  

 

And I really enjoyed both Margaret and Gillian tonight.  Margaret was all kinds of awesome in that boardroom, and I will say I felt Gillian's terror in her sheepish attempts to declare herself cured, and the dread she must be feeling as to what that doctor is going to do to her.     

[Fisher King]

I had never heard of or seen this lad before so did not know that.  Having said that he nailed SB's mannerisms

 

He absolutely is a superb YA Nucky.

Pickering's teeth are more bucky than Nucky's but Buscemi's teeth in his early work were quite crooked and distracting.. I think Winter & Co. have done a great job of masking SB's teeth, along with Buscemi's acting of course.

[vesperholly]

In the first moment, I thought it was going to flash to when Richard was found.

 

That was my first thought too, and when she said "he's alive", I had a tiny shimmer of hope ... but alas.

 

I HATED van Alden in the first season but I love him now. Literally laughed out loud when he told his son that the recorder would sound better farther away. The deadpan delivery of that line was hilarious. I'm not sure why Sigrid has turned to Eli (never felt too much hatred for Husband) nor do I remember the drunk seduction scenes - rewatching is in order.

 

Marc Pickering was the young boy in Sleepy Hollow (Depp film, not TV). And young Mabel is also on The Knick. Familiarities everywhere.

[ganesh]

Leave out Sigrid and pair up Van Alden and Eli in a True Detective-style comedy drama.  Oh, the hijinks these two wackos would make.  Make it so, HBO!

 

You'd have to call it Pandemonium.

[hincandenza]

I don't think Maranzano dies in this drive by, and he actually seemed to know about it.  It seemed directed at Nucky, since after Nucky asked about where Torio was, Maranzano saw the cars pull up and said something like "well here is his message now" or something to that effect.  Maranzano was facing the window, so he saw the car pull up, if he wasn't expecting it, he seems wiley enough  to, upon seeing a car full of people he wasn't expecting stop, to at least panic.  It was Nucky who had his back to the window, so he didn't seem to know what was happening.

 

Exactly; Joe Masseria died in the first episode of this season, in a hit organized by Lucciano for Maranzano that is apparently true to history.  This attempted hit on Nucky in the last episode on the meeting between Nucky and Maranzano never happened, and is strictly part of the show plotline.  The real-life fate of Maranzano is as one would expect of a Prohibition-era mob boss, but hasn't been hinted at or depicted by this show yet.

 

I'm less clear on who's actually involved: obviously Lucciano and Lansky organized the hit on Nucky, but the actor who played Torrio to me was conveying to Lucciano and Lansky "Um, why are you telling me you put a hit on Nucky?  I'm involved now, aren't I?!?".  So I don't think Torrio was part of it, as I believe he was genuine in getting out of the business a few years ago after Capone tried to ice him, and just relax in his old age.  That said, I can't account for why he didn't show up to that meeting, or if Maranzano expected him. 

 

Similarly, I'm not clear on what Maranzano would have to gain by gunning for Nucky: I just rewatched that scene, and the phone call one, and I still don't think Maranzano was in on it.  The point where he nods at the car and says "Here [Torrio] comes now" could be read either way.  But he also peeks out from behind a chair after the shooting stops, and looks worried- I think that hit was a mystery to him as well.  And honestly, who plans a hit where you're right in the line of fire, and your intended victim is in the room with you with his bodyguard?

 

Which makes things even murkier: when Nucky said to him that Lucciano will "come for me [Nucky] again, and then for you", Maranzano acknowledges this but says he doesn't fret about it.  He then referred to Nucky as "Malta", meaning an island unto itself but with which Rome has no quarrel.  Which further leads me to believe Maranzano is not involved in a hit on Nucky... but if you're Lucciano & Lansky, won't you assume Maranzano immediately knows you were probably gunning for him too?  Too high a chance he gets hit by a bullet as well if he wasn't in on it.

 

Lucciano and Lansky, with their grand visions of a unified national crime syndicate dancing in their heads, have reason to not only knock off Masseria and Maranzano, but Narcisse, Nucky, and everyone else with even a hint of being "above" them.  But for Torrio or Maranzano to be involved, it still doesn't make much sense.  Nucky seems to be financially pinched these days and not much danger to anyone, with no strong allies for a few seasons now really.  I'm not sure where he even makes his money, but any from bootlegging should be from a long-settled post-Gyp Rosetti agreement to sell without bias to the mobs in Chicago and NYC, making him a supplier or an alley, but not a threat.

 

I guess I'm saying I don't understand those scenes, or what we were supposed to draw from that, so if someone's got a rock-solid fan theory, I'm all ears. :)

[mjc570]

I can't believe Mickey Doyle has become my favorite character. What a cockroach! and I mean that in the most complimentary way.

[Former Nun]

I think the writers have "evolved" Mickey Doyle quite a bit--he's not the buffoon he was in earlier seasons.

[stormy weather]

Can someone remind me of the episode where Eli and Siegrid got together? Because, honestly, I don't remember. Did this happen offscreen and just implied? I feel like I'm suffering from one of Eli's blackouts.

 

I thought the deed happened waaaaay back, because Sigrid had very long hair in the flashback and seemed to have very short hair at present-day dinner, unless she managed to flawlessy pack up 20 pounds of mane into a nice bun and hide it somewhere on her head. The long time lapse would possibly explain why (together with being plastered during the act) Eli doesn't remember anything, although I find that hard to believe.

 

 

It is a pity that the threw history out the window with this depiction of the Maranzano hit as a Chicago style drive by. Everyone knows that he was shot in his office by Jewish gun men pretending to be IRS agents.

Very disappointing.

 

Do we know for sure Maranzano is dead? I thought he had managed to escape the shooting, but maybe I got distracted and missed something.

 

Great episode, by the way. Van Alden is the king of everything, he has been my favorite character since the very beginning and Shannon is a fantastic actor. I wonder if we'll get to see "dead ballerina" Paz De la Huerta once more before the show wraps up.

Also, kudos to the guy who wrote this recap, it's hilarious!

Edited October 9, 2014 by stormy weather

[lucindabelle]

Actually, just because her hair is shorter doesn't say anything, she could have cut her hair yesterday, it's going the other way that takes time, when did Sigrid stop loving Nelson?

[Avaleigh]

I thought her hair was just pinned up. There are similar hairstyles used on Downton Abbey where it sort of looks like the girls have short hair but it's really just pinned up. When Gillian's hair was pinned up before it was cut I wouldn't have guessed that it went past her waist. Even if it has been cut, as lucindabelle points out she could have done it recently.

 

I don't think the hair being down is supposed to be indicative of a large amount of time having passed. I thought it was supposed to be about Sigrid being free, relaxed, and intimate with Eli. 

[A Boston Gal]

I think more to the point about Sigrid's hair is the color: she went from being an innocent blonde when we first met her to a dark redhead. Indicating...what? She's a rebel? A hussy? Whatever..she's certainly a different Segrid than the sweet nanny who first showed up at Nelson's door.

[terrymct]

Do we know for sure Maranzano is dead? I thought he had managed to escape the shooting, but maybe I got distracted and missed something.

 

 

There was a quick glimpse of him peeking out from behind something wooden (the bar, maybe?) and down at floor level.

[Former Nun]

I keep trying to find Marc Pickering's "teeth."   I think his unusual teeth are enhanced just a little on the sides and whitened quite a lot.

[ethalfrida]

I am officially confused. I can barely keep up with who is who this season. Maybe re-watching the entire series will help... 

[Michell3]

 

Whatever..she's certainly a different Segrid than the sweet nanny who first showed up at Nelson's door.

 

I think that sweet and innocent act went out the window (for me, anyway) when Van Alden killed someone last season and she was all WELP!  time to get rid of this body! anything for my man!! After that, I kinda knew she had a batshit crazy streak somewhere in there, just didn't know she would wind up straight up evil. 

 

In contrast, June, to me, was the only bright and lovely and pure thing in Eli's life and really the entire Boardwalk universe, and, although June never got a lot of screen time or any story at all, I was sad anyway when Sigrid (and really Eli, too) ripped her to pieces.  

 

Strangely, I was not happy to see Daughter.  Well, let's say I was conflicted.  I want Chalky to have a reason to continue living, but other than that, Daughter, to me, is a pretty weak character whose weakness is made even more obvious because she is surrounded by so many strong female characters (however flawed or otherwise batshit crazy they may be).  

 

I think I might be the only person on the planet who thought that the portrayal of YA Nucky was a little over the top.  More like an impersonation of current Nucky (if he was a drawing, he'd be a caricature).  Or maybe those Halloween teeth amped up all his other mannerisms, in my perception.  And I am a jerk because I just remembered those are (*actor's name here*) God-given teeth.  

 

 

I can't believe Mickey Doyle has become my favorite character. What a cockroach! and I mean that in the most complimentary way.

 

Have the writers bestowed upon him a sliver of charm this season?  I find him less repellent than usual.  Indeed, I found his last conversation with Sally cute, even. Huh. 

 

I felt like the episode had this recurring theme of starting over, redemption, trying to start with a clean(ish) slate, that sort of thing.  At this point, I don't really know who will wind up with the happy ending.  

 

Mabel is, well....a brat.  She and Daughter certainly got short-changed as characters.  

Edited October 12, 2014 by Michell3

[Squirrely]

My beef with Sigrid's personality change is the way she treats the children. She was a loving and attentive mother from the get go, even though she isn't Abigail's bio mom. I could stomach her being nasty to Husband more if she didn't treat the kids like garbage. She's always had a very strong personality but now she's cruel and nasty. I feel like the writers despise women. They demolish each and every one you feel you can root for.

Was Al really this bizarre and out of control in real life? I've read a lot on him (his neice's book is a really good read) and it seems like the show Al doesn't match. I know they want to make it exciting for tv but he's crossing into Gyp territories of unhinged for me.

I am officially confused. I can barely keep up with who is who this season. Maybe re-watching the entire series will help...

It does! I rewatched the whole series ondemand before this season and I'm so glad I did. It's easy to become fuzzy on details with so much time in between the short seasons.

[RealityGal]

I think I might be the only person on the planet who thought that the portrayal of YA Nucky was a little over the top.  More like an impression of current Nucky (if he was a drawing, he'd be a caricature).  Or maybe those Halloween teeth amped up all his other mannerisms, in my perception.  And I am a jerk because I just remembered those are (*actor's name here*) God-given teeth.  

 

 

I feel like he was an impersonation, but I also think that was probably the real young Nucky.  He was from a very poor family, trying to woo this rich girl, desperate to move up in the world, he probably acted the way he either saw people acting, or the way he thought people wanted him to act, and because he wasn't skilled yet, his acting probably came off as just that.....acting. The laugh was a little too loud, the smile a little too big, the nonchalance, a little too studied.

 

those teeth...woof!

 

My beef with Sigrid's personality change is the way she treats the children. She was a loving and attentive mother from the get go, even though she isn't Abigail's bio mom. I could stomach her being nasty to Husband more if she didn't treat the kids like garbage. She's always had a very strong personality but now she's cruel and nasty. I feel like the writers despise women. They demolish each and every one you feel you can root for.

Was Al really this bizarre and out of control in real life? I've read a lot on him (his neice's book is a really good read) and it seems like the show Al doesn't match. I know they want to make it exciting for tv but he's crossing into Gyp territories of unhinged for me.

It does! I rewatched the whole series ondemand before this season and I'm so glad I did. It's easy to become fuzzy on details with so much time in between the short seasons.

 

I'm not sure when Al Capone contracted syphilis, but I think mental problems are a complication from the disease.  So...maybe??

 

As far as Sigrid, I see it as her getting what she thought she wanted, and realizing its not that great and the anger that comes with it.  She was an immigrant, and probably thought that if she married an American man, with a solid job (was he a prohibition agent when they met?) and had some children and a home she would be happy.  She was probably taught that it would make her happy....and it doesn't.  But I do remember the cool Sigrid selling her moonshine at some point...that lady was pretty cool

[Mindymoo]

According to a biography I read, Al Capone contracted syphilis before he met Mae, his wife. He had a thing for sleeping around prior to and after getting married. Since he got the syphilitic insanity, I am surprised that living with syphilis for nearly three decades didn't cause saddle nose as well. Congenital syphilis didn't cause his son's deafness though- that was from an infection his son got when he was seven. (I know way too much about Al Capone.)

 

During his constipation scene, I thought "too bad you weren't doing blow in the 80s. The baby laxative they cut the coke with would have cured that in an instant."

[Squirrely]

But I do remember the cool Sigrid selling her moonshine at some point...that lady was pretty cool

Yeah, that's the Sigrid I miss! She was very realistic and pragmatic about what needed to be done. I guses they foreshadowed things pretty well in S4 with her constant bitching, but I had hoped things had changed. I would have rather seen her prospering in some enterprise on her own and making more money than Nelson, and maybe rubbing his nose in it. She didn't seem the type to roll over and accept things without a fight! But she's a woman on BE so of course that can't happen.

[Cherpumple]

I've been a fan of Marc Pickering ever since I saw him in Sleepy Hollow (his eyes are quite mesmerizing) and think he's doing a great job as younger Nucky. If you want to hear his awesome northern accent, here's a clip of him from an X-Factor parody show from a few years ago. His chompers were quite prominent then too.

 

My favourite exchange of the episode was George and Eli talking before dinner:

George: Capone put a gun in my mouth!

Eli: Well, that's just poor leadership.

[RealityGal]

According to a biography I read, Al Capone contracted syphilis before he met Mae, his wife. He had a thing for sleeping around prior to and after getting married. Since he got the syphilitic insanity, I am surprised that living with syphilis for nearly three decades didn't cause saddle nose as well. 

LMAO!  So he pretty much managed to stay faithful only on his wedding night.  Too funny :)

 

Did Mae contract it as well?  That seems like a stupid question, but I thought she outlived him.

[Mindymoo]

Considering that their son was born with congenital syphilis, I would think that Mae would have had to contract it as well.

[Michell3]

 

I feel like he was an impersonation, but I also think that was probably the real young Nucky.  He was from a very poor family, trying to woo this rich girl, desperate to move up in the world, he probably acted the way he either saw people acting, or the way he thought people wanted him to act, and because he wasn't skilled yet, his acting probably came off as just that.....acting. The laugh was a little too loud, the smile a little too big, the nonchalance, a little too studied.

 

Oops, meant "impersonation," not "impression."  Anyhow, kinda like Gatsby and his incessant "old sport"-ing. I'll buy that.  

 

 

My beef with Sigrid's personality change is the way she treats the children. She was a loving and attentive mother from the get go, even though she isn't Abigail's bio mom. I could stomach her being nasty to Husband more if she didn't treat the kids like garbage.

 

You know, I initially thought that Sigrid married such a weirdo for the sake of the safety of the child she was caring for when she was working for Van Alden, but I suppose the way she's treating them now is inconsistent with that theory.  Perhaps an inconsistency in her character, or, like RealityGal alluded to, perhaps she was an optimistic immigrant chasing the American dream, American husband with stable job and lovely baby and house, and the realities of life have made her bitter and generally awful....?  Of course she IS married to Van Alden, and she DID have to dispose of a dead body...guess I shouldn't judge.

[Pickles Aplenty]

Maybe Sigrid wanted to live the way Margaret did in the early days of her marriage to Nucky.  Maybe she had dreams of being a rich gangster's wife, and instead she has Expendable Husband and a house with a leaky roof.  Since Sigrid was ambitious enough to suggest bootlegging and help Van Alden dispose of a body, I can easily see that.  She's frustrated because years have passed, and they're still solidly in the middle, not living high on the hog.