S24.E22 Look the Other Way

[Xeliou66]

Episode description 

When a model is murdered, Shaw and Riley believe their suspect may have escalated an obsession to violence. Maroun’s efforts to place the suspect near the scene of the crime leaves Price in a bind when the evidence may not hold up in court. 

[Spartan Girl]

No sympathy for Maroun. She has nobody put herself to blame for playing fast and loose with the law.

[marc20]

well, that's certainly one way to write Maroun out of the show...used to characters in the show getting shot or hurt, not them taking someone out with vengeance...if that's what happened...are we going to get a prosecution of her in episode 1 next season or just a move-on to the next atractive female ADA?

Edited May 16 by marc20

[Diana Berry]

Question. Still confused about what she did that was so wrong when she questioned the witness?  What was she supposed to do different? 

Edited May 16 by Diana Berry

[CraftyHazel]

32 minutes ago, Diana Berry said:

Question. Still confused about what she did that was so wrong when she questioned the witness?  What was she supposed to do different? 

She showed the man the suspect’s photo and basically said, “we know he’s guilty, we just need you to ID him.”  You can’t do that.

[Irlandesa]

I hated this episode so much. 

For one, it's absolutely ridiculous that the judge tossed the DNA evidence.  And the trial would not have proceeded until that decision got appealed.  She would have likely been overturned because so many people have been convicted based on DNA evidence collected through familial matches. 

It's also not great that Price didn't seem to interrogate the details of Maroun's questioning of the doorman until just before he testified.  I'm also not even sure he needed to tell the defense since the cross examination would have torn his testimony apart, especially since Maroun was the questioner. 

There are a lot of ways they can go with this story.  I'm guessing it was the murdered girl's father who pulled the trigger.

44 minutes ago, Diana Berry said:

Question. Still confused about what she did that was so wrong when she questioned the witness?  What was she supposed to do different? 

 

10 minutes ago, CraftyHazel said:

She showed the man the suspect’s photo and basically said, “we know he’s guilty, we just need you to ID him.”  You can’t do that.

I don't think she showed his picture. She only showed a security camera's screenshot from behind. If that shot had captured his face, they wouldn't have needed his identification. She described him as handsome (or a model depending on whose version you believe) and so that could be considered to have tainted the identification.  She also said she was certain he was guilty but I'm not sure why that would matter.  They weren't asking him to say he witnessed the murder.  All they wanted was for him to say that he saw him near the murder near the time of the murder. 

[Diana Berry]

23 minutes ago, CraftyHazel said:

She showed the man the suspect’s photo and basically said, “we know he’s guilty, we just need you to ID him.”  You can’t do that.

But it was just the back of his head? 

Just now, Diana Berry said:

But it was just the back of his head? 

 

1 minute ago, Irlandesa said:

I hated this episode so much. 

For one, it's absolutely ridiculous that the judge tossed the DNA evidence.  And the trial would not have proceeded until that decision got appealed.  She would have likely been overturned because so many people have been convicted based on DNA evidence collected through familial matches. 

It's also not great that Price didn't seem to interrogate the details of Maroun's questioning of the doorman until just before he testified.  I'm also not even sure he needed to tell the defense since the cross examination would have torn his testimony apart, especially since Maroun was the questioner. 

There are a lot of ways they can go with this story.  I'm guessing it was the murdered girl's father who pulled the trigger.

 

I don't think she showed his picture. She only showed a security camera's screenshot from behind. If that shot had captured his face, they wouldn't have needed his identification. She described him as handsome (or a model depending on whose version you believe) and so that could be considered to have tainted the identification.  She also said she was certain he was guilty but I'm not sure why that would matter.  They weren't asking him to say he witnessed the murder.  All they wanted was for him to say that he saw him near the murder near the time of the murder. 

I went back and rewatched she didn’t make the model statement but if we are to believe the hotel worker she did say that . 

[Xeliou66]

I think that’s the first cliffhanger ending to a season in L&O history - I have a lot of thoughts 

First off, there were serious continuity errors in the case of Maroun’s sister - in the past, Maroun said they had a prime suspect but weren’t able to make the case against him, that was said in at least a couple of episodes, but this made it clear that Maroun had never heard of this guy and he was never suspected. Huge error in continuity.

I hope this is the end of Maroun, I don’t know whether she went full on vigilante and killed the perp or not, but I’m sick of her, she should’ve stayed far away from this case, and both Price and Baxter should’ve told her to stay far away instead of saying she could work behind the scenes, it predictably blew up the case. Regardless of what specifically Maroun said, her telling the doorman he was certainly guilty and giving a partial description of him was a major no no, and it tainted the ID, and Price was 100% right in his decision.

I was surprised by Baxter telling Price he would be okay if Price looked the other way. As DA, it seems like Baxter would be more concerned with the image of his office. It was a good twist that Baxter made up the story he told Price, Baxter is interesting, unpredictable at times but very intriguing and I like his scenes.

Brady should’ve known better than to use the DNA database she used, it’s an ethical minefield. Brady was partially responsible for the case blowing up, even though the judge did seem to rule based on her personal opinion and not the law. They already had a suspect and they should’ve tried to get his DNA in a legally bulletproof way, but Brady was overzealous.

They also never explained the perp’s connection to Christina, he knew the victim in this episode, was Christina a random crime or did he know her?

On the positive side Shaw/Riley were great as usual, and they remembered Shaw has a law degree. 

There were quite a few flaws here, and it was a shaky end to an up and down season. I still enjoy the show a lot but this was far from its finest hour. I’ll forgive it though if this is the end of Maroun and we get a better ADA, because Maroun is by far the weakest link on the show. I’m very curious as to how next season starts, will it be the investigation of the perp’s murder and whether or not Maroun did it, or will they move on to a new case and reveal what happened here in passing? Regardless I believe Maroun is gone, I don’t think her and Price could work together again after this and I suspect she moves on, but whether or not she killed the perp, who knows? It would be a really wild twist if Maroun did kill the perp and went to jail for it, that’s never happened on the Mothership, it would take the cake as a bad ending for a character but I don’t like Maroun anyway.

So a rather flawed finale, but I’m curious to see where the show goes now - I like the cast other the Maroun, I just hope they dial back the personal stuff in season 25. 

[storyskip]

I am so sick of Maroun.

This was a ridiculous episode with so many plot contrivances, if I’d taken a shot for each contrivance I’d be in the ER for alcohol poisoning.

Maroun? For me there is no redeeming quality to her. I’ll just give her the Olivia treatment and mute every time she opens her sanctimonious mouth.

And what was the point with Baxter? Did he tell that lie as a way to direct Nolan to “look the other way” without making it a direct request? So basically giving an “order” but with enough plausible deniability that had Nolan looked the other way and gotten called out on it, Baxter could protect himself?

Stupid, stupid episode.

 

ETA: LOL the censoring of sa I n t Oliva continues. Now you can’t even abbreviate saint without it getting erased 🤣

Edited May 16 by storyskip

[MaryHedwig]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It would be a really wild twist if Maroun did kill the perp and went to jail for it, that’s never happened on the Mothership,

Wouldn't she just be transferred to Staten Island for three years?

 

[MediaZone4K]

The rare not guilty verdict, color me shocked. I knew the defendant was a dead man after that.

First of all, Maroun should have been totally recused from this case, given her relationship to the other victim. If she truly wanted justice for her sister she would know she'd have to sit this one out to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

Tossing out the DNA evidence was bogus to me.

I understand Baxter's point that sometimes the right thing to do supersedes legal processes. But when cops make that jump too often things become like "Chicago PD": an ends justifies the means rationale for justice.

If they wanted to degrade Maroun's character this whole episode did that. Price was the only prosecutor to come off decent this evening. 

Price and especially Maroun need to go. 

Edited May 16 by MediaZone4K

[KittyKat425]

The biggest hole in this case for me is that is unlikely a woman who was raped 3 days earlier would be okay walking alone at night in New York wearing head phones.

[shapeshifter]

12 years between killings? 
I don't think so.
Seems like we were at least owed a throwaway line about how there had to have been more victims but maybe for some legal reason they didn't have time to find them.

 

10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

it's absolutely ridiculous that the judge tossed the DNA evidence.  And the trial would not have proceeded until that decision got appealed.  She would have likely been overturned because so many people have been convicted based on DNA evidence collected through familial matches. 

Nary a mention of The Golden State Killer being caught by familial DNA match.
Appreciate the rest of your points too.

10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm guessing it was the murdered girl's father who pulled the trigger.

Agree.

 

11 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

Question. Still confused about what she did that was so wrong when she questioned the witness?  What was she supposed to do different? 

We were clued what Maroun did was wrong because when Nolan was prepping the witness he very pointedly asked: 
“Did someone tell you there was irrefutable evidence that Carter was guilty or…describe what he looked like?”
IRL, there have been many wrongful convictions based on such coaching of witnesses, so it's a valid concern.

 

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

…there were serious continuity errors in the case of Maroun’s sister - in the past, Maroun said they had a prime suspect but weren’t able to make the case against him, that was said in at least a couple of episodes, but this made it clear that Maroun had never heard of this guy and he was never suspected. Huge error in continuity.…

Oops!
Great summary of the episode and its issues.👏

 

Edited May 16 by shapeshifter

[dubbel zout]

I hated this episode too, and thought it was the weakest of this season.

So much stupidity on the order side, as usual. The DNA would not have been tossed. Even if Price had put the doorman on the stand, the defense would do exactly as he said they would: Rip the ID to shreds, and possibly leave the prosecution open to sanctions.

Speaking of the ID, why didn't the police find that footage? It's not as if the hotel were off the beaten path. (I know; plot points gonna plot point.)

I had to laugh when Maroun said she couldn't stay away from the courtroom. Doesn't she have other cases? Was Baxter okay with her wiling away days in court?

Ugh. It's so frustrating to see what this show has become.

I thought the casting of the perp was really good. His smug superiority was perfect. That he totally got under Maroun's skin was a nice bonus.

Anna Wood, who played the defense lawyer, needs to play Juliette Lewis's sister in something, pronto.

Edited May 16 by dubbel zout

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought the casting of the perp was really good. His smug superiority was perfect. That he totally got under Maroun's skin was a nice bonus.

Yes, but I bet he left grinning toothmarks on the scenery.
I'm surprised the camera person and the editor didn't show them.
Blame (or compliment) the director?
Having actually encountered someone like the perp, I think there'd be less smiling. The actor's probably a sweetheart.

[LGraves65]

Quote

First of all, Maroun should have been totally recused from this case, given her relationship to the other victim. If she truly wanted justice for her sister she would know she'd have to sit this one out to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

As someone who works in the court system, the entirety of her office would have had to recuse themselves.  I know the DA's office in NYC is huge, but no way would Nolan been first chair.  They would need to bring in a prosecutor from another division or another county.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, MediaZone4K said:

I understand Baxter's point that sometimes the right thing to do supersedes legal processes. But when cops make that jump too often things become like "Chicago PD": an ends justifies the means rationale for justice.

If they wanted to degrade Maroun's character this whole episode did that. Price was the only prosecutor to come off decent this evening. 

Price and especially Maroun need to go. 

The D.A. is staring to remind me of the D.A. in the Los Angeles spin-off. He is just not as outright hostile to his lead prosecutor as on that show. The willingness to frame a guilty man is all over his view.

With Price showing up at her door asking if she applied a brass verdict says these two should not work together again if they do bring out the other guy did it to continue the story.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, Raja said:

The D.A. is staring to remind me of the D.A. in the Los Angeles spin-off. He is just not as outright hostile to his lead prosecutor as on that show. The willingness to frame a guilty man is all over his view.

With Price showing up at her door asking if she applied a brass verdict says these two should not work together again if they do bring out the other guy did it to continue the story.

I don’t think Baxter is anything like the adversarial DA in the LA spinoff, whose sole purpose was too be an obstacle and a pain for the prosecutors - Baxter is an ally to the prosecutors and a good DA, he’s kind of unpredictable which makes him interesting and he’s a bit mysterious, but he’s a good guy and not an adversary. I think in this episode he was just letting Price know, in his own way, he would support him regardless of his decision.

I don’t think Price and Maroun can work together again after this even if Maroun is innocent of involvement in the perp’s murder, so I’m hopeful this is the end of Maroun - she’s by far the weakest link of the cast.

[storyskip]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I don’t think Baxter is anything like the adversarial DA in the LA spinoff, whose sole purpose was too be an obstacle and a pain for the prosecutors - Baxter is an ally to the prosecutors and a good DA, he’s kind of unpredictable which makes him interesting and he’s a bit mysterious, but he’s a good guy and not an adversary. I think in this episode he was just letting Price know, in his own way, he would support him regardless of his decision.

I don’t think Price and Maroun can work together again after this even if Maroun is innocent of involvement in the perp’s murder, so I’m hopeful this is the end of Maroun - she’s by far the weakest link of the cast.

Whether it’s Maroun leaving or Price leaving, getting away from Maroun might save Nolan an early stress related coronary. 

At this point I’ve lost track of how many times Nolan has had to save Maroun’s career, in addition to all the times he’s had to stand and be the punching bag because they followed a path dictated by Maroun and the results went t**s up. 🤔

I’m thinking we’ve got to be in double digits by now, and I can’t think of a single instance where Maroun has sacrificed anything in order to support Nolan.

Oh to keep this rant on topic. IF Nolan had put the doorman on the stand, the defense attorney would have shredded his testimony. Given how aggressive she was, there was a high likelihood that she would have then slapped the DAs office with a misconduct accusation, which would have probably tanked Maroun’s career (or at least dented it significantly) not to mention reflect badly on Baxter and Nolan.

But Nolan’s the “bad guy” who gets the door slammed in his face. Got it. F**k Maroun.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, storyskip said:

Whether it’s Maroun leaving or Price leaving, getting away from Maroun might save Nolan an early stress related coronary. 

At this point I’ve lost track of how many times Nolan has had to save Maroun’s career, in addition to all the times he’s had to stand and be the punching bag because they followed a path dictated by Maroun and the results went t**s up. 🤔

I’m thinking we’ve got to be in double digits by now, and I can’t think of a single instance where Maroun has sacrificed anything in order to support Nolan.

Oh to keep this rant on topic. IF Nolan had put the doorman on the stand, the defense attorney would have shredded his testimony. Given how aggressive she was, there was a high likelihood that she would have then slapped the DAs office with a misconduct accusation, which would have probably tanked Maroun’s career (or at least dented it significantly) not to mention reflect badly on Baxter and Nolan.

But Nolan’s the “bad guy” who gets the door slammed in his face. Got it. F**k Maroun.

Good rant. Like you I can’t stand Maroun, she’s whiny and you’re right about Price constantly having to bail her out or be her punching bag. 
This was a very flawed episode but if it leads to Maroun’s exit I’ll forgive it. 

[MerBearHou]

7 hours ago, KittyKat425 said:

The biggest hole in this case for me is that is unlikely a woman who was raped 3 days earlier would be okay walking alone at night in New York wearing head phones.

Completely agree.  I was just shaking my head at that scenario, even before she was attacked.  

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought the casting of the perp was really good. His smug superiority was perfect. That he totally got under Maroun's skin was a nice bonus.

I had never seen him before so I read about the actor.  He was a very highly ranked tennis player when he was young, even playing in Wimbledon in the Junior level.  He did a great job acting smug.  

[Madding crowd]

There is no way Sam killed that guy, I’m sure it was the girl’s father. Of course this will lead to Sam saying she can never forgive Nolan and hopefully she’s out. I’m tired of Nolan being made out to be the bad guy here when he’s the one who would face sanctions when the defense attorney questioned the doorman and found out Maroun coached him, which she would.

I wanted to find out more about the killer: does he randomly kill someone every 12 years and then acts perfect between kills? Surely they could have found other women he hurt and could get his DNA in a less controversial way. Also it’s not Nolan’s fault that the police aren’t doing a good job of looking into a suspects life.

Edited May 16 by Madding crowd

[blackwing]

Ah, I was hoping for a more clear and definitive Maroun exit.  I wanted her to be shown shooting the guy on the courthouse steps, and then turning the gun on herself.  Or that she gets fired for her actions in losing the case.

Instead, Maroun slams the door in Nolan's face, basically saying "I cannot even BELIEVE you think I could have done that".

I think Nolan should have still put the guard on the stand anyways.  If they were going to lose the case, let it be publicly known that Maroun behaved improperly and broke the law.  Then Baxter would have no choice but to send her packing, just like the schlub who he fired on his first day and sent him home with his belongings in a box.

Maroun shouldn't have been anywhere near the case.  Why was she the one that discovered the security guard at the Richwood?  Shouldn't Violet Yee have been on this?  Poor Vi does nothing but review security footage all day long 95% of the time.  Then Riley and Shaw could have talked to the guard.  Price and Baxter should have specifically told her not to do anything at all.

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

First off, there were serious continuity errors in the case of Maroun’s sister - in the past, Maroun said they had a prime suspect but weren’t able to make the case against him, that was said in at least a couple of episodes, but this made it clear that Maroun had never heard of this guy and he was never suspected. Huge error in continuity.

I hope this is the end of Maroun, I don’t know whether she went full on vigilante and killed the perp or not, but I’m sick of her, she should’ve stayed far away from this case, and both Price and Baxter should’ve told her to stay far away instead of saying she could work behind the scenes, it predictably blew up the case. Regardless of what specifically Maroun said, her telling the doorman he was certainly guilty and giving a partial description of him was a major no no, and it tainted the ID, and Price was 100% right in his decision.

Yes, exactly right.  I know it was said in previous episodes that they knew who killed the sister, they just couldn't get justice.  But now it's someone new?  How?

 

There was no "To be continued" indicator as the show ended.  And I don't think L&O has ever come back to re-visit the case of a prior episode in a subsequent episode, have they?  Not counting the two-part crossovers with other L&O shows like the one a few episodes ago with S.a.i.n.t. Olivia.

So I think this case is done.  How is this going to be handled?  Show comes back in the fall.  I really hope that the show doesn't take Maroun's door slamming as closing the book on this, and that she didn't do it and therefore they can just move on.  If the show comes back and Price and Maroun are both the show's prosecutors, I will scream.  There's absolutely no way the two of them can be assigned to work on cases together anymore.  Maroun behaved unethically and broke the law.  Baxter wanted Price to look the other way, but Price couldn't compromise his ethics.  Price thinks Maroun may have killed the defendant.  She is offended.

Which means that in the universe of this TV show, one of them has to go.

Unfortunately, I would not at all be surprised if Hugh Dancy is exiting.  I could easily see the show coming back with Maroun and a new prosecutor.  Dancy was a movie actor who wasn't famous famous but he had some name recognition.  I also vividly remember him as the Earl of Essex in the HBO miniseries "Elizabeth I" which starred Helen Mirren.  He got even more recognition after he married Claire Danes and then appeared in the Hannibal TV series.  I'm sure he commands a much higher salary than the Maroun actress.  The other five actors are all more expensive than the Maroun actress.

Ideally, the Maroun actress should leave.  Maroun lost the case.  Unfortunately, I think Baxter supported her viewpoint, and the fact that the episode is titled "Look the Other Way" is some indication to me that Baxter will blame Price and get rid of him.

I don't know how much more of Maroun I can take.  I absolutely loathe her.  I love everything about L&O except for her.  If the show keeps her even after all this, I would probably still be back but find it difficult.

Wasn't there a case earlier this season or maybe last season that involved getting DNA in some kind of roundabout way?  They used some kind of FBI database that they shouldn't have?  I thought Brady was the one that was 100% against it?  Am I mis-remembering?

Edited May 16 by blackwing

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Instead, Maroun slams the door in Nolan's face, basically saying "I cannot even BELIEVE you think I could have done that".

😄I wish there was a Peacock edit where Ms. Maroun can drop the F bomb on Mr. Price

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Ah, I was hoping for a more clear and definitive Maroun exit.  I wanted her to be shown shooting the guy on the courthouse steps, and then turning the gun on herself.  Or that she gets fired for her actions in losing the case.

Instead, Maroun slams the door in Nolan's face, basically saying "I cannot even BELIEVE you think I could have done that".

I think Nolan should have still put the guard on the stand anyways.  If they were going to lose the case, let it be publicly known that Maroun behaved improperly and broke the law.  Then Baxter would have no choice but to send her packing, just like the schlub who he fired on his first day and sent him home with his belongings in a box.

Maroun shouldn't have been anywhere near the case.  Why was she the one that discovered the security guard at the Richwood?  Shouldn't Violet Yee have been on this?  Poor Vi does nothing but review security footage all day long 95% of the time.  Then Riley and Shaw could have talked to the guard.  Price and Baxter should have specifically told her not to do anything at all.

Yes, exactly right.  I know it was said in previous episodes that they knew who killed the sister, they just couldn't get justice.  But now it's someone new?  How?

 

There was no "To be continued" indicator as the show ended.  And I don't think L&O has ever come back to re-visit the case of a prior episode in a subsequent episode, have they?  Not counting the two-part crossovers with other L&O shows like the one a few episodes ago with S.a.i.n.t. Olivia.

So I think this case is done.  How is this going to be handled?  Show comes back in the fall.  I really hope that the show doesn't take Maroun's door slamming as closing the book on this, and that she didn't do it and therefore they can just move on.  If the show comes back and Price and Maroun are both the show's prosecutors, I will scream.  There's absolutely no way the two of them can be assigned to work on cases together anymore.  Maroun behaved unethically and broke the law.  Baxter wanted Price to look the other way, but Price couldn't compromise his ethics.  Price thinks Maroun may have killed the defendant.  She is offended.

Which means that in the universe of this TV show, one of them has to go.

Unfortunately, I would not at all be surprised if Hugh Dancy is exiting.  I could easily see the show coming back with Maroun and a new prosecutor.  Dancy was a movie actor who wasn't famous famous but he had some name recognition.  I also vividly remember him as the Earl of Essex in the HBO miniseries "Elizabeth I" which starred Helen Mirren.  He got even more recognition after he married Claire Danes and then appeared in the Hannibal TV series.  I'm sure he commands a much higher salary than the Maroun actress.  The other five actors are all more expensive than the Maroun actress.

Ideally, the Maroun actress should leave.  Maroun lost the case.  Unfortunately, I think Baxter supported her viewpoint, and the fact that the episode is titled "Look the Other Way" is some indication to me that Baxter will blame Price and get rid of him.

I don't know how much more of Maroun I can take.  I absolutely loathe her.  I love everything about L&O except for her.  If the show keeps her even after all this, I would probably still be back but find it difficult.

Wasn't there a case earlier this season or maybe last season that involved getting DNA in some kind of roundabout way?  They used some kind of FBI database that they shouldn't have?  I thought Brady was the one that was 100% against it?  Am I mis-remembering?

No Brady was always for using the alternative DNA databases, it was episode 2 that she did something similar in, and Shaw/Riley expressed concerns, saying Dixon always avoided those databases, and it was St Olivia crossing over from SVU who really didn’t like it. Brady was overzealous here, they already had their suspect, they should’ve either gotten a warrant for his DNA or followed him until he dropped something that had his DNA. Brady’s overzealousness really messed things up, because the ethics and legality of what to do with that DNA is murky and unclear.

Baxter won’t fire Price, it was clear by their last conversation they were on good terms and he was fine with Price following his conscience and doing what he thought was right, if Price leaves it will likely be because of a crisis of faith in the system due to Maroun’s situation or something. Like you I really hope Maroun leaves, she just flat out sucks most of the time. I’ll be very surprised if Price and Maroun continue to work together after this. I just hope Maroun is gone now, I highly doubt she killed the perp, I don’t think L&O would go there with one of its main characters, but I think there’s a good chance she leaves the DAs office.

I also love the show aside from Maroun, I like the revival of L&O more than most people, but this was not a good season finale, the continuity with the case of Maroun’s sister was atrocious - I looked back at it and several times it was said that they knew who the killer was and just couldn’t make the case, and in the revival’s first episode Maroun said the murder occurred in Georgia, but this episode made it clear it happened in NYC, in Brooklyn. Holy hell that’s awful continuity. And like others I wondered if the perp had more victims out there, and if he knew Christina before he killed her. So one of the season’s weakest episodes, but I’ll forgive it if it means goodbye Maroun!

[oakville]

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Anna Wood, who played the defense lawyer, needs to play Juliette Lewis's sister in something, pronto.

I thought she was Juliette Lewis's sister !

[Sake614]

9 minutes ago, oakville said:

I thought she was Juliette Lewis's sister !

I thought she was Juliette Lewis!

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

There was no "To be continued" indicator as the show ended.  And I don't think L&O has ever come back to re-visit the case of a prior episode in a subsequent episode, have they?  Not counting the two-part crossovers with other L&O shows like the one a few episodes ago with S.a.i.n.t. Olivia.

They haven't exactly revisited the same case but they have come back to revisit perps/families.

The most notable is with Larry Miller's Michael Dobson who killed his first wife in Coma and his second the next season in Encore.

And the horrible Jacob and Carla Lowenstein from S1's Indifference make a reappearance in S15's Fixed.

Those are the two that come to mind.

[Cobb Salad]

This was a ‘meh’ episode.  Another foot chase?  Yawn.  Really thought for a second it wouldn’t happen.

So if the accused really did murder Maroun’s sister all those years ago I’d find it hard to believe there weren’t other victims in between.  He had such an annoying smirk so good job by the actor.  If Maroun is still there in the DA’s office next year I guess we won’t hear about the dead sister again?  Personally if I were in her position and my coworker asked me if I was involved with someone’s murder I’m not sure if I would want to work with them again.

I’m not a fan of when the show does story arcs about one of the characters’ personal life, but when they do they should be keeping their facts straight like other posters have noted.  In this episode it was like they needed a dilemma so the writers decided to revive the dead sister story without doing their research.  

[Zaffy]

This was a BAD episode. Bad. Bad. Bad. And bad.
Stupidity all over.
I am neutral on a Maroon possible exit. Cause the same people that wrote her character will also write her replacement. Who will be another person with deep past traumas  that will interfere with cases and create dilemmas. 

And why we had to see the murderer starting beating the victim to death? Why the L&Os have become more graphic and violent? is this  violence-porn needed in the franchise? No thank you.

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

I am neutral on a Maroon possible exit. Cause the same people that wrote her character will also write her replacement. Who will be another person with deep past traumas  that will interfere with cases and create dilemmas. 

And why we had to see the murderer starting beating the victim to death? Why the L&Os have become more graphic and violent? is this  violence-porn needed in the franchise? No thank you.

The series resumption format with the pre crime scenes of the victim from Criminal Intent and now the detectives' action and Lieutenant scenes have taken the time needed for the ADA to do anything but to add a quick argument to Mr. Price.

 I think they should drop the action and the before finding the remains but since they won't perhaps the Lieutenant, DA and ADA need to be rotated out of episodes to give time a reason the others should actually be marching in the opening credits tune. As well as the occasional psychologist and other specialist.

[buckboard]

It may have been someone on Vulture who suggested that the person who actually killed the perp is neither Maroun nor the woman's father, but the stalker from early in the episode.  Remember him?  I sure hadn't.  He was really devoted to the woman and I could see him losing his mind when her killer was found not guilty.

Edited May 17 by buckboard

[Diana Berry]

18 minutes ago, buckboard said:

It may have been someone on Vulture who suggested that the person who actually killed the perp is neither Maroun nor the woman's father, but the stalker from early in the episode.  Remember him?  I sure hadn't.  He was really devoted to the woman and I could see him losing his mind when her killer was found innocent.

Forgot about him or the victim’s friend from the very beginning that told her to be careful. Maybe he wanted revenge.  
 

Whether it’s Maroun or not, I just don’t see how her and Nolan can have a friendly working relationship. Unless, they have some big epiphany and forgive each other    along with massive crying.

Another thing that bugged me.  Why was Maroun even allowed anywhere near the case? I can see Nolan consulting  with her on a personal level if he needed info about the sister but having her on the case even in the background was nuts. 

Edited May 17 by Diana Berry

[MerBearHou]

19 hours ago, buckboard said:

It may have been someone on Vulture who suggested that the person who actually killed the perp is neither Maroun nor the woman's father, but the stalker from early in the episode.  Remember him?  I sure hadn't.  He was really devoted to the woman and I could see him losing his mind when her killer was found not guilty.

I’d sure rather it turn out to be the stalker who killed the defendant.  I don’t want it to be her dad.  And that Maroun exits the show anyway.  Lack of trust, ignored the law, that sort of thing…

Edited May 17 by MerBearHou

[Joimiaroxeu]

Suspect #2 seemed hella suspicious to me from the jump. So many lies, and not very good ones. Wonder why he was so confident he'd evade arrest?
 
Maroun needs to seek therapy. She went hysterical when Price confronted her about tainting the witness. She can't keep acting like she's entitled to undermine her employer's mission.

Geez, the defendant was still eyeballing Maroun after the not guilty verdict was read! As the saying goes, he needed killin'.

So, I'm choosing to believe either Maroun did it or she paid someone to do it. Hope her alibis are airtight, the hitter was a pro from out-of-state, and she paid in cash that didn't come from her own accounts. Paybacks are a bitch indeed.

[MerBearHou]

15 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So, I'm choosing to believe either Maroun did it or she paid someone to do it. Hope her alibis are airtight, the hitter was a pro from out-of-state, and she paid in cash that didn't come from her own accounts. Paybacks are a bitch indeed.

It would be a doozy if the writers went that route and I, for one, would applaud the bold writerly-move.  We shall see!  

[shapeshifter]

19 hours ago, buckboard said:

It may have been someone on Vulture who suggested that the person who actually killed the perp is neither Maroun nor the woman's father, but the stalker from early in the episode.  Remember him?  I sure hadn't.  He was really devoted to the woman and I could see him losing his mind when her killer was found not guilty.

26 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

I’d sure rather it turn out to be the stalker who killed the defendant.

This actually fits. They made a point of how the stalker had become clinically obsessed with the victim and progressed to suicidal. 
So, perhaps in a better variation of this…

24 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So, I'm choosing to believe either Maroun did it or she paid someone to do it.

Maroun visits the stalker and suggests the killer deserves to die, planting in his mind the idea to murder him.
Perhaps she does pay the stalker's bail.

Regardless, I don't want her to leave the show without paraphrasing the line: 
“Is it because I'm a lesbian?”
with:
“Is it because I'm Lebanese?”

Note that when ADA Serena Southerlyn delivered that infamous line:
“Branch fires Southerlyn because he feels she is too sympathetic toward defendants, and that her emotions get in the way of looking at the facts” (Wikipedia). 
Sound familiar?
So Maroun asking if it's because she is the member of an out-group that has nothing to do with the ostensible reason for the firing would be very much the same as that of ADA Southerlyn's question 20 years ago in the S15 E13 episode “Ain't No Love.”

As an OG Star Trek fan, I'm sad the same line still fits in the 21st century Law & Order universe.

 

[ML89]

I think Price and Shaw should go open a law practice together because they are surrounded by co-workers who think it’s fine and dandy to violate the rules and canons and leave them to pick up the pieces. 

Our luck, Price will leave and Maroun will move up to first chair or continue as second to some other poor EADA. She is absolutely insufferable. 
 
Not that the rest of it was much better. How did those parents get there from Iowa  to meet the roommate when the cops had just showed up to talk to her? How did Shaw and Riley miss the doorman? Why is Brady interrogating everyone? Why do we have to keep seeing the murder? Why didn’t Nolan even attempt to argue inevitable discovery?

There is absolutely no energy or snap to these scenes. I watched a season 20 ep the other day (“Brazil” with the researcher who gets shot not for climate change but child custody) and the pacing and performances are night and day different. The writing is much better and the performances are livelier too - there is not a joke or even an arch comment to be had by this new group. Riley’s line about social media was the only attempt. It’s not helped by how flat and dark everything looks - the new processing and color correction makes everything look brown. Or maybe it’s my TV... 

Edited May 18 by ML89

[MediaZone4K]

On 5/16/2025 at 6:24 PM, Irlandesa said:

They haven't exactly revisited the same case but they have come back to revisit perps/families.

The most notable is with Larry Miller's Michael Dobson who killed his first wife in Coma and his second the next season in Encore.

And the horrible Jacob and Carla Lowenstein from S1's Indifference make a reappearance in S15's Fixed.

Those are the two that come to mind.

On 5/16/2025 at 7:24 PM, Zaffy said:

This was a BAD episode. Bad. Bad. Bad. And bad.
Stupidity all over.
I am neutral on a Maroon possible exit. Cause the same people that wrote her character will also write her replacement. Who will be another person with deep past traumas  that will interfere with cases and create dilemmas. 

And why we had to see the murderer starting beating the victim to death? Why the L&Os have become more graphic and violent? is this  violence-porn needed in the franchise? No thank you.

The russian mafia episode Refuge Parts 1&2 did that in 1999. 

Agreed, the death was really graphic.

On 5/17/2025 at 9:55 PM, ML89 said:

I think Price and Shaw should go open a law practice together because they are surrounded by co-workers who think it’s fine and dandy to violate the rules and canons and leave them to pick up the pieces. 

Our luck, Price will leave and Maroun will move up to first chair or continue as second to some other poor EADA. She is absolutely insufferable. 
 
Not that the rest of it was much better. How did those parents get there from Iowa  to meet the roommate when the cops had just showed up to talk to her? How did Shaw and Riley miss the doorman? Why is Brady interrogating everyone? Why do we have to keep seeing the murder? Why didn’t Nolan even attempt to argue inevitable discovery?

There is absolutely no energy or snap to these scenes. I watched a season 20 ep the other day (“Brazil” with the researcher who gets shot not for climate change but child custody) and the pacing and performances are night and day different. The writing is much better and the performances are livelier too - there is not a joke or even an arch comment to be had by this new group. Riley’s line about social media was the only attempt. It’s not helped by how flat and dark everything looks - the new processing and color correction makes everything look brown. Or maybe it’s my TV... 

Shaw is guilty too. He helped his military friend suffering from PTSD get transferred out of the country so the friend couldn't face legal consequences.

[storyskip]

If they got rid of Maroun, the producers could have an opportunity to change up the formula, while keeping the familiar spirit of the show.

In my opinion, Baxter and Nolan are a good yin/yang to one another, and seem to have developed a conscience awareness, and respect of their differences. They have settled into a good give and take “You argue A, I’ll argue B, and we’ll end up with C as our strategy.”

Instead of recasting Maroun as another “every episode” lead, start having the second chair ADA be a guest role, and be different ADAs in the office. I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t even play one on TV, but it can’t be too unrealistic to assume that an EADA would be responsible for mentoring multiple ADAs?

This could give the writers a more organic route for some of these “key piece of evidence gets thrown out due to extremely convoluted reason” dramatic tension moments the show keeps giving us.

Inexperienced ADAs probably make mistakes. Well intended actions, that prove detrimental to the case just feels more realistic to me then some of the “judge throws out evidence because of obscure argument 101” scenarios the writers are relying on so often.

The writers could also farm drama out of an inexperienced ADA learning to navigate the professional yin/yang nature of the relationship between the DA and the EADA. I don’t mean this in a “give us more personal drama” way. But getting to see through the eyes of an up and coming prosecutor; do they want to be letter of the law, stickler like Nolan, or do they want to paint with more shades of gray like Baxter?

Anyway it’ll never happen. I have a sinking fear that Hugh Dancy will be leaving (budget cuts, his salary is probably more than Haveli, and technically Nolan lost the case, which resulted in another murder, and as we know everything is Nolan’s fault) and Maroun will be promoted to first chair.

[Irlandesa]

12 hours ago, MediaZone4K said:

Shaw is guilty too. He helped his military friend suffering from PTSD get transferred out of the country so the friend couldn't face legal consequences.

We never saw Shaw help his friend. We only saw him not seem to care.  I just don't see how he could be guilty of what Price was accusing him of doing.

6 hours ago, storyskip said:

In my opinion, Baxter and Nolan are a good yin/yang to one another, and seem to have developed a conscience awareness, and respect of their differences. They have settled into a good give and take “You argue A, I’ll argue B, and we’ll end up with C as our strategy.

I don't think it's a terrible idea but I don't see the show going down to one female character in the lieutenant role which usually didn't get as much screen time as the two cops, although it feels like Maura Tierney has had a more active role in investigations.

[Xeliou66]

I don’t think Maroun will be promoted to lead ADA even if Nolan leaves - she’s just not a well known actress and doesn’t have enough personality to lead the legal side of the show. I don’t think that will happen. I have a strong feeling that Maroun is leaving the show, it may not be announced until the start of the season as she’ll probably be in the first episode, but while I don’t think Maroun killed the guy I do think she’s leaving the show, it could be wishful thinking but that’s where the signs are pointing.

I know some people hate Price, but I usually like him fine, and I like how his relationship with Baxter has evolved, they don’t always see things the same but they have a mutual respect of each other and their positions. So I’m hoping Price stays on the show - as I’ve said before I think any lead prosecutor character will face a lot of scrutiny as they’ll be compared to Jack McCoy. Price is no Jack McCoy or Ben Stone but he’s fine overall.

I really hope the Shaw/Riley pairing stays, they are both great and play nicely off of each other. I think Riley is probably the most “by the book” of the characters, he sees things in a more black and white, the law is the law way, while Shaw sees shades of gray in things more often. As for Brady I have mixed feelings on her, she has grown on me and she can be a good interrogator and gets some good one liners to suspects, but she can be somewhat reckless and overly aggressive in her approach at times. I disliked her at first but she’s settled in enough now that  I’m fine with her, and I really liked her in the SVU crossover and how she wasn’t afraid to stand up to St O. I think the detective side is better written both character wise and plot wise than the legal stuff, but I think the legal stuff would get a boost if Maroun goes bye bye, she really drags the show down. So I have my fingers crossed she’ll be gone soon. 

[marny]

Agreed with the above comment that the whole DA’s office would have had to recuse based on Maroun’s sister. Also, it seemed clear to me that Maroun wasn’t the killer because she was still wearing her work clothes when she got home— she definitely would have changed if she’d gotten bloody. 
The argument about the cops checking DNA against a commercial database resulting in suppression of the. results is absurd. The only “wrongdoer” as far as his privacy is the company itself— murderer can sue after he’s convicted if he wants. But since he wasn’t a customer, he has no standing to complain about any of it and the cops didn’t violate anything or anyone. So dumb. 
Also the defense lawyer was on this show a few seasons ago as an abusive wife who sexually assaulted her husband. 

[GiandujaPie]

There is no way Maroun should have been allowed anywhere near this case. In real life, she never would have been, but on TV shows, cops, prosecutors, FBI agents are always allowed to be involved in cases they have a personal connection with. 

I get that she tainted the ID given by the doorman, but was it really that tainted that it was unethical or a misconduct? The doorman definitively identified the defendant as the guy he was talking to - he didn't hem and haw or was unsure. I think Price should have just disclosed to the defense attorney and let her cross the doorman and let the jury decide if that made his testimony and ID less credible. By not putting the doorman on the stand at all, it effectively tanked the case and now they can't touch him due to double jeopardy. 

I also didn't understand why the use of the familial DNA was tossed. So many cases in the last few years since the Golden State Killer (my county's DA did this!) have used familial DNA matches that I thought it was settled. 

Maroun was definitely the weakest link in the cast and I'm hoping she doesn't come back either. 

[psychfan]

On 5/16/2025 at 5:12 PM, Xeliou66 said:

No Brady was always for using the alternative DNA databases, it was episode 2 that she did something similar in, and Shaw/Riley expressed concerns, saying Dixon always avoided those databases, and it was St Olivia crossing over from SVU who really didn’t like it. Brady was overzealous here, they already had their suspect, they should’ve either gotten a warrant for his DNA or followed him until he dropped something that had his DNA. Brady’s overzealousness really messed things up, because the ethics and legality of what to do with that DNA is murky and unclear.

Wasn't Benson's criticism about using the database that included victims? That's really different from using commercially available services. I get the issue with having access to someone's DNA only because they were raped. And even familial matches gotten from that database would be an issue in that the rape victim hadn't wanted to be in that database to begin with, and it could be a deterrent to future victims to know that their DNA can be used that way. But that's totally different from people who voluntarily submit their DNA to commercial sites. Sure, the suspect himself may not have had a choice in that, but that's the way it goes. Anyone with access to that DNA can submit it and get the same info the cops did. And anyone who submits their own is okaying the possibility that others related to them will be identified as such, in whatever way that might come up.

[Raja]

48 minutes ago, GiandujaPie said:

I also didn't understand why the use of the familial DNA was tossed.

New York Supreme Court judges in Manhattan always take the side of the defense 🙃

[ZettaK]

On 5/16/2025 at 7:40 AM, KittyKat425 said:

The biggest hole in this case for me is that is unlikely a woman who was raped 3 days earlier would be okay walking alone at night in New York wearing head phones.

It was the first thing that came to mind. We didn't even know she was raped recently in the opening of the episode. But she was walking alone with headphones on, late at night in a not so safe neighborhood in New York. 

[Theli11]

On 5/15/2025 at 10:36 PM, Xeliou66 said:

First off, there were serious continuity errors in the case of Maroun’s sister - in the past, Maroun said they had a prime suspect but weren’t able to make the case against him, that was said in at least a couple of episodes, but this made it clear that Maroun had never heard of this guy and he was never suspected. Huge error in continuity.

I think that prime suspect was a different guy then? IDK Why they weren't able to make the case, but from here it seems that that suspect didn't actually do the murder (which is probably why they couldn't make the case against him). Writers didn't think that hard but I can think a little bit harder for them I'd reckon. 

On 5/15/2025 at 10:36 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I think that’s the first cliffhanger ending to a season in L&O history - I have a lot of thoughts 

 

We literately just had one last season concerning Baxter's DA nomination. 

 

On 5/16/2025 at 7:24 PM, Zaffy said:

Why the L&Os have become more graphic and violent? is this  violence-porn needed in the franchise? No thank you

Yeah I wasn't very fond, I found a lot of humor in the lives of everyday New Yorkers finding the body. On the other hand, this episode book-ended the premiere pretty well eh? (Maroun focus + this time ending on Nolan & Sam at odds, instead of them comforting each other.. eh eh?) Also that episode started with a pretty violent death too. 

On 5/16/2025 at 3:24 PM, Madding crowd said:

There is no way Sam killed that guy, I’m sure it was the girl’s father. Of course this will lead to Sam saying she can never forgive Nolan and hopefully she’s out. I’m tired of Nolan being made out to be the bad guy here when he’s the one who would face sanctions when the defense attorney questioned the doorman and found out Maroun coached him, which she would.

Swear to God we had an episode where someone was suspected of murder, and it wasn't actually them it was the other victim's relative (probably father). Might've been SVU but I think it was the same twist. 


Now for my overall thoughts, it's an okay episode. I do like this episode is in juxtaposition to our premiere which also got the same reviews from this forum I believe. 

Now onto the DNA match and why it wasn't admissible. It was a pretty good reasoning and each judge is up to their own wisdom which is right or wrong. Bad luck to be related to someone who volunteered their DNA. I don't like the Lt. using the blood either, i was with Jalen on that one but he's outranked so.. 

I'm probably the biggest Samantha Maroun defended, but I think I'm tired of her and Price's dynamic. They kinda wrote her into a wall and I think for the next ADA we need someone who is a great investigator. I don't think the formula needs to change persay, but Sam & Nolan really annoyed me this episode for an odd reason. Someone give me a DOG in the court. 

And yes, these episodes need to be funny and less dynamic. Can we just get someone who's fucking cuckoo? Like a suspect who wisecracks or a bratty teenager? or a witty homeless man who kinda knows too much? Sarcastic Black Lady? Dude only speaks Russian? Where's my God damn Comedy? It's so serious man, I think this show needs some comedy writers or something. Murder's funny to people who are around murderers all day right? I would think they'd be numb to it. 

Okay so this finale was a little less than mid, and it sucks because the episodes leading up to it are really good (even the 2-parter with... Holier-than-thou Benson? [hope that went through oh censors!]

[shapeshifter]

On 5/15/2025 at 10:36 PM, Xeliou66 said:

First off, there were serious continuity errors in the case of Maroun’s sister - in the past, Maroun said they had a prime suspect but weren’t able to make the case against him, that was said in at least a couple of episodes, but this made it clear that Maroun had never heard of this guy and he was never suspected. Huge error in continuity.

On 5/29/2025 at 12:11 AM, Theli11 said:

I think that prime suspect was a different guy then? IDK Why they weren't able to make the case, but from here it seems that that suspect didn't actually do the murder (which is probably why they couldn't make the case against him).

That does make sense, but I needed an explanatory throwaway line about the original suspect for Maroun’s sister’s murder having not been her killer.
Maybe they had some interesting dialogue about that, which was cut for time?
 

 

Edited June 1 by shapeshifter
typo

[FatherOfZeus]

On 5/15/2025 at 9:06 PM, marc20 said:

well, that's certainly one way to write Maroun out of the show...used to characters in the show getting shot or hurt, not them taking someone out with vengeance...if that's what happened...are we going to get a prosecution of her in episode 1 next season or just a move-on to the next atractive female ADA?

I think they have to resolve it—I hope they do. However, I don't think it is her. I think it is the dad. Did she talk to the dad and tell him where the guy would be? Or, did the dad just hunt him down? Regardless, I can't wait to find out.