S01.E13: Pregame

[chitowngirl]

An important class-action lawsuit leads the team to investigate a sorority; Matty brings Alfie with her to Jacobson Moore on Family Day.
 

Airdate February 27, 2025 on CBS

[AnimeMania]

Aaron D. Harris as Alfie Kingston

[nokat]

Matty getting high was fun. They do like toying with us. Alfie being in the stairwell to distract everyone. Matty in Olympia's office: Alfie forgot his wallet. Just a lot of nail biting moments that turn out that Matty is quite clever.

[DanaK]

I’m not sure the case of the week was very interesting but seeing Maddy high with Sr was, as was the fakeout with Alfie

[andromeda331]

The case was boring. I liked stoned Matty with Sr. That was really great.  

Edited February 28 by andromeda331

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I assume this episode was inspired by the Panera Bread Charged lemonade: https://www.cspinet.org/cspi-news/panera-stop-selling-charged-lemonade-following-lawsuits

On 2/27/2025 at 10:45 PM, nokat said:

Matty getting high was fun.

What if Maddy had mentioned Ellie and the opioids?  Even consuming half an edible seemed risky.

It's also nuts how the defendant was arrested, had an immediate Mapp hearing (suppression of evidence following illegal police search), followed by an immediate trial.  Just crazy.

With regard to the Mapp hearing, the prosecutor Olympia would have pushed that the DA to show evidence that the police knew about the open house policy that day at the sorority before they entered without a warrant.  

And of course the girl who did spike the drink should face charges for her criminally negligent behavior.

When the DA came to visit Olympia to return evidence in person, I thought at first he was going to ask her out, not tell her that she was his "bear."  So that's twice that an attorney on this show has inspired another attorney to declare a feud (the 1st having been Sarah and Maddy.)  Didn't enjoy it then, won't enjoy it now.

I'm also unclear on how the DA got to her office without her knowing he was in the building.  Can anyone walk freely around the office without being approved by security?  Any lawyer?  Seems dangerous.

 

Edited Friday at 06:59 AM by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Has Julian not noticed that he's been missing his id card for a few days?  Did he simply get a new one, at which time his old one should have been deactivated?  Or did Maddy swap hers for his, in which case, if anyone checks their records, their locations will have also been swapped?  Does she have to slip Julian's card back into his pocket/swap back for hers?

Edited February 28 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Chicago Redshirt]

This show is so frustrating because it can do so many things well and then just fall apart on so many other things. I wish I weren't obsessed with it.

Like others, I found Matty stoned was hilarious. even though it should have set off red flags to get stoned with Senior on company property. She should have taken the offered edible and eaten it at home to avoid the possibility of it hitting her in a way that might help her blow her cover, and also avoid the possibility that Senior was trying to hit on/hook up with her.

The non-denominational bunny bit was funny, but would Olympia really go out of the way to fuck with Senior and give Julian a break when she's angling for partner?

I look forward to getting to know Matty's sister, and discovering that there is an actual Cindy Shapiro.

I liked them dealing with Matty blaming herself. I don't like Edwin rationalizing "Well sooner or later Ellie was going to OD." No, absolutely not.

Billy, you are an idiot. With you recognizing that Simone is flirting with Kira just to fuck with Sarah, the thought has to cross your mind that she's fooling around with you just to fuck with Sarah. It also should concern you that she is as petty and nasty as she has revealed herself to be in general, let alone toward your friend. No sexytimes are worth that shiznit. Get thee to a nunnery!

The return of Alfie was...not great. The revelation that he was born addicted did nothing to endear me to him on his return. I didn't need a MWBSP, Alfie being enlisted in the conspiracy, the contrivance of Alfie leaving his wallet behind in Olympia's office (how was that supposed to happen? Why would he have taken his wallet out there?) although I enjoyed the payoff. 

A short summary of problems with the Case of the Week:

1. With the upcoming class action against the energy drink set to go to trial, one more piece of evidence should not make that big a difference that it is worth this massive side quest of taking on a new case in an area outside their expertise.

2. Since the energy drink caused the death of Sorority Girl, it doesn't matter so much what the intent was of the person who administered the drink. In fact, I would argue it's better for Olympia's case if the person who administered the drink did so intending to harm its recipient. 

3. If anything. Olympia should have recruited the family of dead Sorority Girl as a client.

4. With the suppression hearing it was cute and all, but presumably the evidence of the cup and its contents were only obtained after Sorority Girl had been injured. At which point police had every right to be on site to investigate a potential crime, and there would be no reason to exclude evidence. The clothes drop-off was cute but it doesn't work as a basis to justify the police presence on scene. The invitation allows people to be present only for certain reasons (dropping off clothes) and in certain places (wherever the clothes drop off area is) It wouldn't give people carte blanche to go through the Sorority house for whatever purpose, let alone law enforcement.

5. I'm not sure the actions/motivation of actual culprit make much sense. They have a grudge against Client Sorority Girl such that they are willing to risk the health of Dead Sorority Girl and frame her for pranking Dead Sorority Girl? They go out of their way to swipe Client  Sorority Girl's ID to buy the Max Rager energy drink to frame her? Are they thinking that someone is going to be checking where the energy drink came from? It's a college campus -- I'm sure you probably can't walk 2 blocks or go two dorm room floors without finding cans and cans of the stuff.

6. I don't know if the revelation that it was Culprits who bought the energy drink with Client's ID entirely gets Client off the hook. Culprits could have bought the energy drink at Client's direction. Or Client could have come to know that the drink was spiked with energy drink and given it to her anyway. The case had IMO reasonable doubt beforehand but if the prosecutor didn't think so, I don't know that the revelation changes things much.

[johntfs]

16 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

This show is so frustrating because it can do so many things well and then just fall apart on so many other things. I wish I weren't obsessed with it.

Like others, I found Matty stoned was hilarious. even though it should have set off red flags to get stoned with Senior on company property. She should have taken the offered edible and eaten it at home to avoid the possibility of it hitting her in a way that might help her blow her cover, and also avoid the possibility that Senior was trying to hit on/hook up with her.

The non-denominational bunny bit was funny, but would Olympia really go out of the way to fuck with Senior and give Julian a break when she's angling for partner?

I look forward to getting to know Matty's sister, and discovering that there is an actual Cindy Shapiro.

I liked them dealing with Matty blaming herself. I don't like Edwin rationalizing "Well sooner or later Ellie was going to OD." No, absolutely not.

Billy, you are an idiot. With you recognizing that Simone is flirting with Kira just to fuck with Sarah, the thought has to cross your mind that she's fooling around with you just to fuck with Sarah. It also should concern you that she is as petty and nasty as she has revealed herself to be in general, let alone toward your friend. No sexytimes are worth that shiznit. Get thee to a nunnery!

The return of Alfie was...not great. The revelation that he was born addicted did nothing to endear me to him on his return. I didn't need a MWBSP, Alfie being enlisted in the conspiracy, the contrivance of Alfie leaving his wallet behind in Olympia's office (how was that supposed to happen? Why would he have taken his wallet out there?) although I enjoyed the payoff. 

A short summary of problems with the Case of the Week:

1. With the upcoming class action against the energy drink set to go to trial, one more piece of evidence should not make that big a difference that it is worth this massive side quest of taking on a new case in an area outside their expertise.

2. Since the energy drink caused the death of Sorority Girl, it doesn't matter so much what the intent was of the person who administered the drink. In fact, I would argue it's better for Olympia's case if the person who administered the drink did so intending to harm its recipient. 

3. If anything. Olympia should have recruited the family of dead Sorority Girl as a client.

4. With the suppression hearing it was cute and all, but presumably the evidence of the cup and its contents were only obtained after Sorority Girl had been injured. At which point police had every right to be on site to investigate a potential crime, and there would be no reason to exclude evidence. The clothes drop-off was cute but it doesn't work as a basis to justify the police presence on scene. The invitation allows people to be present only for certain reasons (dropping off clothes) and in certain places (wherever the clothes drop off area is) It wouldn't give people carte blanche to go through the Sorority house for whatever purpose, let alone law enforcement.

5. I'm not sure the actions/motivation of actual culprit make much sense. They have a grudge against Client Sorority Girl such that they are willing to risk the health of Dead Sorority Girl and frame her for pranking Dead Sorority Girl? They go out of their way to swipe Client  Sorority Girl's ID to buy the Max Rager energy drink to frame her? Are they thinking that someone is going to be checking where the energy drink came from? It's a college campus -- I'm sure you probably can't walk 2 blocks or go two dorm room floors without finding cans and cans of the stuff.

6. I don't know if the revelation that it was Culprits who bought the energy drink with Client's ID entirely gets Client off the hook. Culprits could have bought the energy drink at Client's direction. Or Client could have come to know that the drink was spiked with energy drink and given it to her anyway. The case had IMO reasonable doubt beforehand but if the prosecutor didn't think so, I don't know that the revelation changes things much.

Honestly, if you're watching this show like it's Law and Order, you're watching it wrong.  Matlock is basically an even goofier version of Boston Legal sadly without the eloquence of James Spader on his soapbox.

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Honestly, if you're watching this show like it's Law and Order, you're watching it wrong.  Matlock is basically an even goofier version of Boston Legal sadly without the eloquence of James Spader on his soapbox.

I don't expect any law show (or police show, or medical show etc.) to be a one-for-one replication of the field they are in. I expect there are going to be some standard departures from reality in order to make things more convenient or entertaining (such as a criminal trial going from arrest to acquittal in basically the space of less than a month when in reality, even the simplest case is likely to take a year).

That said, I do expect that characters and cases have some level of internal logic.

Maybe I'm looking at things through nostalgia-colored glasses, but the episodes I watched of Boston Legal, the court cases generally were inherently coherent for what they were. 

Matlock not so much. YMMV.

 

 

[nokat]

I watch this show for entertainment and because I like Kathy Bates.  I'm in no way a person you should talk to for legal advice.  I'll watch shows where the defendant is found guilty/not guilty within an hour. That take months and probably years. I find some kind of relief from the reality of the real justice system.  

[possibilities]

I kind of enjoyed Alfie acting like the world's worst, most sullen tween. 

[eel2178]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't like Edwin rationalizing "Well sooner or later Ellie was going to OD." 

Yet, they both still blame the manufacturer of whatever opioid she took. They are still completely exonerating her culpability in her own death.  

[Bastet]

13 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Has Julian not noticed that he's been missing his id card for a few days?  Did he simply get a new one, at which time his old one should have been deactivated?  Or did Maddy swap hers for his, in which case, if anyone checks their records, their locations will have also been swapped?  Does she have to slip Julian's card back into his pocket/swap back for hers?

When she took his, she replaced it with another; they show her doing the switch when she takes his coat.  How she (meaning, Alfie) managed to create a duplicate card that is working for Julian, they have completely ignored.

[Morrigan2575]

30 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

Yet, they both still blame the manufacturer of whatever opioid she took. They are still completely exonerating her culpability in her own death.  

I wish they'd admit they're blaming everyone else but Ellie because they feel guilty blaming her for her choices. 

[Bastet]

They're still trying to make MWBSP happen.  Stop it, Gretchen.

They used to at least come up with a reason - one that only works on TV, but a reason -  a trial was starting in just a few days, but didn't even bother with this one.  Olympia has already met Alfie (early on, when she brought Matty's "forgotten" dinner to the Queens apartment [they lured her there to spy cam her entering her phone's passcode]), but everyone acted like Family Day was the first time.  Julian did not meet him, but was looking for him even though he has no idea what he looks like; it's Family Day, it's not like he'll be easy to spot as the only kid in the firm.  And Matty told Edwin about the 3:00 shift change plan in the morning before she left for work, but she didn't learn about the shift change until later that day at work, when she talked to the security guard who'd helped her with her purse (it's shown as a flashback, but she's in the same outfit).  I was not as successful blocking out the nonsense with this one.

Kennedy (Kennedy O; I love that there were three) intended Zoey to drink the spiked drink and get sick, but was she there when Zoey handed it to Violet instead?  Intent transfers, but there's the added detail that everyone in the sorority knew about Violet's heart condition, which means Kennedy knew or reasonably should have known that if Violet drank it, she could get more than sick.  If she just let that happen, thinking, okay, this way I still get revenge on her because she'll get in trouble, that's a pretty big deal.  With Olympia saying it was an accident, and she shouldn't be charged, she should have said Kennedy wasn't there when Zoey gave her drink to Violet.

I wonder why the ADA has it in for Olympia, and how his hunt that he's being patient about is going to create problems in a future episode.  He bugged me.

Matty getting stoned with Senior was fun, at least.  As was Sarah's reaction to the sorority girls, and especially the kids (I love her and Billy yelling "No eggs in here!" in unison).  But as for Billy and Simone:

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Billy, you are an idiot. With you recognizing that Simone is flirting with Kira just to fuck with Sarah, the thought has to cross your mind that she's fooling around with you just to fuck with Sarah. It also should concern you that she is as petty and nasty as she has revealed herself to be in general, let alone toward your friend. No sexytimes are worth that shiznit. Get thee to a nunnery!

This.  They disgust me.  Simone has never alleged Sarah did anything to her in law school; it's been played like she hates her just because Sarah was so good, and so obnoxious about being so good.  So this campaign of petty revenge is as pathetic as it is nasty, and Billy is a nice, attractive guy with a good job -- even on the rebound, he has plenty of better options, so choosing to go this route is also pathetic.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 2/28/2025 at 4:27 PM, Bastet said:

When she took his, she replaced it with another; they show her doing the switch when she takes his coat.  How she (meaning, Alfie) managed to create a duplicate card that is working for Julian, they have completely ignored.

Yes, I thought I remembered seeing her swap cards, which I assume meant she swapped hers for his, and would thus want hers back. I can't remember; do they have actual pictures or names on them? If so, how likely is it that Julian wouldn't have noticed the swap?

Edited March 3 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Bastet]

19 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Yes, I thought I remembered seeing her swap cards, which I assume meant she swapped hers for his,

Oh, I see what you're saying, that what she switched his with was her card, not a replacement Alfie had somehow created.  That would make much more sense, but, then, yeah, as you noted, it means she has to switch back now (especially if his card gives access to places hers doesn't).

19 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I can't remember; do they have actual pictures or names on them?

No, at least not that we've seen.  When she is in the security office (where her info is already up on the guy's computer well before he scans her card, which bugs me), we see the side they scan is all black, and the other side just has the firm's name on it.  But it looks like some sort of pouch, so it's possible there's more inside.

Edited February 28 by Bastet

[chitowngirl]

My work swipe card does not have my name, picture, or even company name on it!

[MissLucas]

Hmm, anyone like to join my at the shallow end of the pool? Because I'm looking forward to the next bear hunt *cough* just saying.

I stopped bothering about all the Leverage inspired shenanigans a while ago and just enjoy the ride. I loved Olympia hiding the bunny head and Julian immediately clocking it was her. Matty and Senior getting mildly stoned was also fun. Though I was confused about the timeline. I assumed that she had left with Alfie but apparently she sent him home on his own. And yeah, Alfie as sullen teenager was quite enjoyable. I'm also happy we got to meet Bitsy! I wonder how that will turn out.

Less enjoyable was seeing the 'Matlocks' return to their revenge scheming. I don't think that's the healthy way to deal with the emotions that were bubbling up last episode. And I'm also not impressed with Billy and Sara's subplots. Billy is getting played and Sara having to deal with a partner who wants an open relationship are both plots that don't seem to belong in this show. I like both characters and actors and wish they would get better writing.

 

 

[eel2178]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

Julian did not meet him, but was looking for him even though he has no idea what he looks like; it's Family Day, it's not like he'll be easy to spot as the only kid in the firm. 

All the kids we saw were much younger than Alfie. It's also not so hard for him to join the search and just ask every sullen teenager he ran into, "Are you Alfie?"

[possibilities]

I've been worried about the swipe card switch every since it happened. At some point, Julian will realize he has Matty's card, right? Because the system tracks whose card is being used, so at some point someone is going to figure out the records are switched. This seems like a huge risk.

[nokat]

5 hours ago, eel2178 said:

Yet, they both still blame the manufacturer of whatever opioid she took. They are still completely exonerating her culpability in her own death.  

They were handing them out, over-prescribing them. It was easy to get addicted.  I had a prescription for hydrocodone, and took one pill a day just to do things, and suffered the rest of the time because I was so afraid of addiction.

[PokerDot]

4 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If so, how likely is it that Julian wouldn't have noticed the swap?

Many years ago, I worked on an Army base. Secret clearance. IDs with photos on them. I shared a workspace with someone else. One day while we were chatting she suddenly asked, "What the hell are you doing with my badge?" And then she checked her badge and, of course, she was wearing mine. We weren't sure how long we'd been wearing each other's badges, and we had to use them several times a day, including the base guard gate twice a day. Also, we were of different races. 

[Dowel Jones]

Army logic can be impenetrable at times.  Long ago, I used to run inmate fire crews for CalFire (not anything remotely like Fire Country, but that's another story).  When we had a large fire over in San Luis Obisbo area, the crews were set down at a nearby National Guard base for rest after a fireline shift.  The gate guards would wave the trucks full of inmates right on through but stop us in the support vehicles for ID checks.

[peachmangosteen]

On 2/28/2025 at 4:02 PM, eel2178 said:

Yet, they both still blame the manufacturer of whatever opioid she took.

Because the manufacturers are to blame.

[cameron]

On 2/28/2025 at 9:49 PM, nokat said:

They were handing them out, over-prescribing them. It was easy to get addicted.  I had a prescription for hydrocodone, and took one pill a day just to do things, and suffered the rest of the time because I was so afraid of addiction.

Just because they prescribe them doesn't mean you have to take them.  We always throw them out after any major medical procedure that we have had done.  Just used tylenol.

[johntfs]

On 2/28/2025 at 7:48 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't expect any law show (or police show, or medical show etc.) to be a one-for-one replication of the field they are in. I expect there are going to be some standard departures from reality in order to make things more convenient or entertaining (such as a criminal trial going from arrest to acquittal in basically the space of less than a month when in reality, even the simplest case is likely to take a year).

That said, I do expect that characters and cases have some level of internal logic.

Maybe I'm looking at things through nostalgia-colored glasses, but the episodes I watched of Boston Legal, the court cases generally were inherently coherent for what they were. 

Matlock not so much. YMMV.

 

 

Did you want the show to spend a full year on "mean, weepy sorority girl accused of manslaughter?"  I know I didn't. 

I wouldn't mind it if next year the show did a "Murder One" thing of following some twisty murder case from start to finish (with plenty of other, lesser cases sprinkled in).  Right now, though, I'm a little more interested in "Matty solves the Opiod Epidemic" or whatever than in realistic legalese.

[cameron]

On 2/28/2025 at 4:42 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I wish they'd admit they're blaming everyone else but Ellie because they feel guilty blaming her for her choices. 

You would think that they would be more concerned about the unhealthy amount of weight that Alfie is packing and the fact that the other kids are laughing at him that now instead of rehashing of the past.

Edited March 3 by cameron

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Because the manufacturers are to blame.

Yeah, all the mistakes other people have made/are making in this story don't negate that the manufacturers knew the drugs are highly addictive, yet marketed them as safe and effective, particularly downplaying the risk of long-term use, leading to widespread prescription, and widespread addiction, leading to a staggering number of overdoses -- while heroin and illicitly manufactured fentanyl account for an increasing proportion of opioid-involved overdoses, the majority of people with opioid addiction started with prescribed painkillers (and this was especially true back when Ellie became addicted [we do not yet know if that was the case with her]). 

And, if the allegation on Reddit is correct, the firm hid documents that would have exposed the details of Wellbrexa's knowledge, which could have yanked the drug off the market.  That's an if, and an even bigger could.  There are a lot of factors here, and Ellie's, Edwin's, and Matty's actions are fair game for scrutiny.  But to dismiss Wellbrexa as some boogeyman they're inappropriately targeting is ridiculous.  Ellie shouldn't have done this, Matty and Edwin shouldn't have done that, maybe a doctor (if applicable) shouldn't have done something -- those may all be true, but manufacturers, having all knowledge of the risk and lying about it, started this devastating ball rolling and made big bucks off it.  Shrugging that off to focus on individuals caught up in this disaster ignores reality.

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, johntfs said:

Did you want the show to spend a full year on "mean, weepy sorority girl accused of manslaughter?"  I know I didn't. 

I wouldn't mind it if next year the show did a "Murder One" thing of following some twisty murder case from start to finish (with plenty of other, lesser cases sprinkled in).  Right now, though, I'm a little more interested in "Matty solves the Opiod Epidemic" or whatever than in realistic legalese.

I have to accept that it is going to be rare for a showrunner to try to follow the Murder One path and devote an entire season to a single case, much as I might wish that they would.

If I had my druthers, I would have the focus be on the cases of the week. The opioid stuff just is a weak premise on a number of grounds (Matty's motivation being a Reddit post that may or may not be true, Matty's somehow narrowing the list of suspects to three when there's presumably numerous others who could have hid documents, Matty's unwillingness to pursue other means available to someone of her obvious means to find the truth, Matty's willingness to break ethical and criminal lines in her crusade, Matty not having a clear endgame, etc. etc.)

That said, it is something of a false dilemma -- the showrunners here could devote more time to make the logic of the cases of the week tighter while at the same time making the Matty's covert mission plot tighter too.

Unfortunately, both strands of the show too frequently have glaring holes. The scenes that are touching or funny and the character moments are enough to give some of that a pass. 

[mostlylurking]

I enjoyed Matty bringing Alfie to the office with her and their whole ruse. Alfie doesn’t bother me (unpopular opinion I know).  And I noticed that on Julian’s ID badge he had normal hair, not the shellacked helmet he’s got going on now.

I thought it was hilarious that the writers have gone out of their way to show how intense and neurotic Sarah is and then they cut to Kira just chilling watching the sunset, not a care in the world. Heh. There is no way they will work out. Like I get opposites attract and all that but Sarah is way too much of a control freak to be ok with an open relationship. I wouldn’t be ok with it either and I’m NOT a control freak, so yeah. It won’t work. 

I didn’t care about the case. I do like how they go through them quickly, it would be wonderful if that could happen in real life. ADA guy was HOT. Possible romantic link for Olympia??

[eel2178]

On 3/2/2025 at 7:34 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Because the manufacturers are to blame.

I agree to disagree.

[peachmangosteen]

It's true though. Sure, there are also other people to blame, but that doesn't absolve them.

[mythoughtis]

On 2/28/2025 at 3:42 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I wish they'd admit they're blaming everyone else but Ellie because they feel guilty blaming her for her choices. 

Addiction is a disease not a choice.    It’s a choice to try some alcohol or tobacco or gambling or illegal drug for the first time or second time …  But it’s not a choice to become addicted to it.   Recovering addicts struggle every day of the rest of their lives to refrain from taking another dose of what they became  addicted to. 
 

Opioids are not illegal drugs. They were and are prescribed by doctors.  Opioid manufacturers ( much like cigarette companies) lied about the addictive attributes of their product.    Maddie is fighting to prove that the manufacturer and the law firm hid the truth for 10 years.     I assume that she feels that her daughter might not have taken the pain pills at all if she knew the truth about them at the time.   We now know that truth.   That’s the reason I refuse to take oxycodone and only take Hydrocodone briefly after surgery.   

Edited Tuesday at 02:20 AM by mythoughtis

[johntfs]

On 3/2/2025 at 10:18 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I have to accept that it is going to be rare for a showrunner to try to follow the Murder One path and devote an entire season to a single case, much as I might wish that they would.

If I had my druthers, I would have the focus be on the cases of the week. The opioid stuff just is a weak premise on a number of grounds (Matty's motivation being a Reddit post that may or may not be true, Matty's somehow narrowing the list of suspects to three when there's presumably numerous others who could have hid documents, Matty's unwillingness to pursue other means available to someone of her obvious means to find the truth, Matty's willingness to break ethical and criminal lines in her crusade, Matty not having a clear endgame, etc. etc.)

That said, it is something of a false dilemma -- the showrunners here could devote more time to make the logic of the cases of the week tighter while at the same time making the Matty's covert mission plot tighter too.

Unfortunately, both strands of the show too frequently have glaring holes. The scenes that are touching or funny and the character moments are enough to give some of that a pass. 

I came into this late.  This started over a Reddit post?  Seriously?  So if I'd posted that the Opiod crisis was started because Vampire Elvis took a break from using the pixie dust exhaust from his invisible, magic, UFO to try to use "chem-trails" to block the Sun, I'd have had Matty after his (obviously fictional) ass?

That said, 

Quote

Matty's willingness to break ethical and criminal lines in her crusade,

and

Quote

Matty not having a clear endgame

make the story more interesting to me.  I like the idea that she isn't some saintly heroine and that her quest for justice/revenge is likely going to leave a good bit of collateral damage inflicted on folks who don't deserve it.

If Kathy Bates is starring in a TV show, I kind of want to see her channel a little bit of Annie Wilkes sometimes.

[andromeda331]

46 minutes ago, johntfs said:

If Kathy Bates is starring in a TV show, I kind of want to see her channel a little bit of Annie Wilkes sometimes.

So do I. I love when TV shows give a nod or channel their actor or actress previous roles. I'm still disappointed decades later that Night Court never once gave a nod or had John Astin (Buddy) channel his famous role as Gomez Addams in the 60s sitcom. Not even once. 

[Johannah]

Trying to decide where to go with this show so I read the posts here before watching again.  Thought I might watch to see Mattie high like you all described and then decided I didn't really care.  Then I realized the only person I cared about was Olympia and I don't want to watch Mattie screw her over.

I'm out, but I may check in here later to see how Olympia fared - hoping against hope that somehow Olympia exposes Mattie and she gets her just due.

Sigh.

[Morrigan2575]

18 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Addiction is a disease not a choice.    It’s a choice to try some alcohol or tobacco or gambling or illegal drug for the first time or second time …  But it’s not a choice to become addicted to it.   Recovering addicts struggle every day of the rest of their lives to refrain from taking another dose of what they became  addicted to. 

No but it is a choice to stop, addicts still need to take accountability for their addiction.  That's like a core aspect of both Alcoholics and Narcotics Anonymous. 

I'm not saying the manufacturer is blameless because those greedy bastards lied about the addictive nature and got doctors to push the meds as if they were candy. They are absolutely responsible for creating the Opiod Crisis but Ellie is also responsible for her choices. She's responsible for taking drugs while pregnant,  she's responsible for taking drugs while her child is in the house and gets injured because of her negligence, she's responsible for continuing to do drugs after multiple attempts to stop and going to expensive rehabs only to fall back on her addition. 

I'm not trying to vilifiy Ellie she had an addiction but, that's not a get out of jail free card and, I think deep down they are focusing on the Law Firm and the Manufacturer because it's easier than admitting their dead daughter was also responsible for her OD or possible suicide. 

Edited Tuesday at 09:17 PM by Morrigan2575

[peachmangosteen]

Well, Ellie's dead so she's already paid the price. Now it's time for the pharmaceutical company and anyone who helped them to pay it, too.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Well, Ellie's dead so she's already paid the price. Now it's time for the pharmaceutical company and anyone who helped them to pay it, too.

I went back and re-watched the end of the pilot because my memory of what the actual issue was was very spotty.

She said that she narrowed it down to Julian, Olympia and Senior.  It was one of those three who hid the documents and she wanted to see them in jail. 

No mention of making the company pay, she was laser focused on those three.

She also says they hid documents that "could have taken opioids off the market 10 years earlier."  Which is why I have a problem with the whole premise because even with all the awareness of the opioid epidemic, none of the heavily prescribed ones such as Oxycontin or Percocet have ever been taken off the the market.  They are still being prescribed.  Even when Perdue admitted to lying about the addictive properties of Oxycontin and paid a 600 million dollar fine, Oxy was still allowed to be on the market. 

What the awareness of the crisis did was caused a lessening in the opiods being wildly over prescribed.  But even that just caused the method of getting the drugs to shift from being prescription based to being illegally gotten. The crisis didn't abate, it simply moved around.

I really wish Matty's crusade was something a bit more fictional in nature because the reality of the real life opioid epidemic just doesn't mesh with what she is selling here.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I went back and re-watched the end of the pilot because my memory of what the actual issue was was very spotty.

She said that she narrowed it down to Julian, Olympia and Senior.  It was one of those three who hid the documents and she wanted to see them in jail. 

No mention of making the company pay, she was laser focused on those three.

She also says they hid documents that "could have taken opioids off the market 10 years earlier."  Which is why I have a problem with the whole premise because even with all the awareness of the opioid epidemic, none of the heavily prescribed ones such as Oxycontin or Percocet have ever been taken off the the market.  They are still being prescribed.  Even when Perdue admitted to lying about the addictive properties of Oxycontin and paid a 600 million dollar fine, Oxy was still allowed to be on the market. 

What the awareness of the crisis did was caused a lessening in the opiods being wildly over prescribed.  But even that just caused the method of getting the drugs to shift from being prescription based to being illegally gotten. The crisis didn't abate, it simply moved around.

I really wish Matty's crusade was something a bit more fictional in nature because the reality of the real life opioid epidemic just doesn't mesh with what she is selling here.

Agreed. If Ellie had an injury or something that put her on the pills and that's where it started it would make more sense. But from everything we've heard Ellie was just your average junkie.  

[Nashville]

On 2/28/2025 at 5:06 PM, chitowngirl said:

My work swipe card does not have my name, picture, or even company name on it!

In any organization attempting to make some pretense of a secure facility, putting identifying information on the keys to the front door is generally frowned upon.

 

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

She also says they hid documents that "could have taken opioids off the market 10 years earlier."  Which is why I have a problem with the whole premise because even with all the awareness of the opioid epidemic, none of the heavily prescribed ones such as Oxycontin or Percocet have ever been taken off the the market.  They are still being prescribed.  Even when Perdue admitted to lying about the addictive properties of Oxycontin and paid a 600 million dollar fine, Oxy was still allowed to be on the market. 

Thank you thank you THANK YOU for so eloquently encapsulating my biggest problem with this series; the total implausibility of its primary premise. 🤬🤬🤬

(I’ve tried to write the same post several times myself, but they all keep turning into the Great American Novel….)

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, DearEvette said:

No mention of making the company pay, she was laser focused on those three.

Which makes sense.

She can start on the company next season.

In general though, I hope they drop this whole thing for season 2 simply because I don't like seeing all the misinformation about addiction and lack of empathy in the discussion.

[possibilities]

We've seen the family try to hold Elie responsible. They took her kid away. They sent her to rehab. They tried to intervene and have not in any way acted like she had no part in her life. What more are they supposed to do about that, now that she's dead? They tried with her as long as she was alive. 

Now they are trying to right another wrong. If the premise is true, then someone at the law firm illegally withheld crucial evidence, which supposedly would have flipped a court case that would have had a significant impact on the opioid crisis. If Elie can be held responsible for her behavior, surely the illegal acts of a law firm of stone cold sober people also should be. 

Do people who give a pass to lawyers breaking the law and pharmaceutical companies lying about the dangerous aspects of their products also handwave the behavior of people who sell illegal drugs, or illegally sell pharmaceuticals for street use? 

Referring to people as "junkies" is stigmatizing, and I think that however people go astray in life, if we are going to hold addicts accountable, we need to also hold liars, pushers, profiteerers, and lawyers accountable. Basically, everybody who fucks up needs to be accountable for their actions, and so far Elie is really the only one who has suffered the consequences of what appears to have been a conspiracy to promote and protect opioid abuse via illegal means for the purpose of greed.

They never should have framed it as "could have gotten opioids taken off the market 10 years sooner" because they are still on the market. Maybe they should have said "taken opioids off the market 10 years ago" or "made people aware of the dangers of opiods and stopped their reckless over-prescription 10 years sooner".

It's ambitious to take on an issue with as much real world valence as this, and they have not done a perfect job of it, but I also think that they are getting more of it right than maybe it's easy to acknowledge.

It's painful, but true, that this issue affects a lot of people, and the people who profited off it have not really suffered any kind of pain from their wrong-doings. Even the fines and bad PR have not touched them, not really.

But many people have had their lives ruined, people have died, their loved ones have had to live with that pain, and still we have a cultural  narrative of "junkies" and not a parallel narrative of equal negativity about the selfish greed that led people to create the problem in the first place. We joke about lawyers and mildly complain about "the price of drugs" and "big pharma" but we don't actually villainize them in the visceral way we villainize people who became addicted. We don't have an actual slur to describe their special breed of wrong, which makes them seem disgusting and unsympathetic and icky on a visceral level.

I don't know where the show is going and whether they are planning to make Maddy eat crow, or whether she will triumph, or what will happen. It's CBS, not some radical underground arthouse production. I mean, I am truly not even going to guess.

I can imagine an ending where Olympia finds out, is innocent, and joins with Maddy to take down the firm and Wellbrexa, and Season 2 is that story.

And I can also imagine an ending where Maddy is exposed, Olympia feels betrayed, Maddy feels terrible, and the show tells us she was wrong about everything and just avoiding her own grief.

Who knows what they have planned? I would hope something closer to the former than the latter,  but I have no idea what the network would allow or the imaginations and agendas of the producers might be.

I do think that how we react to the show is somewhat of a Rorschach for viewers. What does it say about how much we each care about various people or values? Are there people we think are disposable? Are there people who we would relish seeing punished or rewarded? Whose mistakes do we easily forgive and what do we think is unforgiveable? 

For me, the friendships are really interesting-- I enjoy seeing an amicable and blameless divorce between Olympia and Julian. And then they introduce hints that maybe Julian was actually wronger than I thought and the amicable thing was unearned. And now they're back to being amicable and I'm enjoying that, but wondering about the unanswered questions raised from when they weren't.

And I love the friendship between Olympia and Maddy, and seeing Maddy lie to her makes me feel absolutely sick inside. 

And the way Billy and Sarah go back and forth between being allies and being terrible to each other also has me on a roller coaster of liking and not liking them.

It's not only a show about opioids and legalities. It's also a show about relationships, at least for me.

I also find the marriage between Maddy and Edwin really compelling.

[peachmangosteen]

Absolutely fantastic post, @possibilities.

[Yeah No]

Yeah, @possibilities, you really summed up how I feel about this show in general.

I just caught up with this episode. I'm currently suspending all disbelief and going along with the ride with this show. It amused me that the COTW involved Fordham as it's my alma mater and I worked there for 10 years after graduation in undergrad. admissions while in grad. school. Sororities are really not a thing at Jesuit universities so add another unrealistic aspect to this episode. I did love the mention of the NY Botanical Garden as I used to spend many a lunchtime there eating a sandwich. Although today it's much harder to get into without going through a gate and paying than it was when I was there. It would have been nice if the show could actually have shown Sarah and Billy attempting to go from there to a liquor store rather than walking in what looked to me like anything but the Bronx.

[possibilities]

The show is frustrating because it's very, very messy-- and I don't mean the writing is messy. I mean the issues are messy. And IRL people are often messy, so I can't fully fault them for for writing it that way. But it's frustrating!!!

[Nashville]

On 3/7/2025 at 11:23 PM, Yeah No said:

Sororities are really not a thing at Jesuit universities so add another unrealistic aspect to this episode.

I think this may be the best sentence I’ve read this week.