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S02.E07: One Angry Woman

chitowngirl

By chitowngirl
in Elsbeth

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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

For those who don't know, he's Carrie Preston's (Elsbeth's) actual husband.

Yes I guess he will be back for her to find the real killer. I was wondering how they were going to do that, but by the end it seemed clear they would have another episode. 
So many wrongs in this episode. Besides the weather, Elsbeth was also talking to outsiders about the case. 

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AnimeMania

AnimeMania

I wish they hadn't shown that it was the judge that killed the man, it would have made the case more interesting. There is no way that the judge knew ahead of time that he would be the one trying this case or that Delia would have such an incompetent lawyer. I would love to see Chaz Messina come back and beg Elsbeth to help him figure out a tricky case one day.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Really enjoyed this episode. Yes, we have to overlook the legal no-no's, but I liked watching Elsbeth face off against the Judge (both played by very good actors).

I also liked that the episode ended with the innocent woman going free, but Elsbeth not being able to get the goods on the killer (at least not yet). It sets up a nice continuing story arc.

However, I did think that the new police lieutenant's about-face on Elsbeth seemed a bit too sudden (from wanting to get her out to appreciating her value to the department).

Edited by tv echo
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ahpny

ahpny

(edited)
On 12/13/2024 at 9:28 AM, tv echo said:

Really enjoyed this episode. Yes, we have to overlook the legal no-no's

Indeed, though jury shananagans as shown here and cell phone use do not happen in New York courts, the plight of a lawyer selected as a juror has particular resonance to those of us who are lawyers but have also been called for jury duty. And it is true that gamesmanship is quite present in how best to avoid being choosen and serving. It is also true that in most cases, most lawyers choosing jurors would exclude other lawyers as potential jurors if the alteratives are not worse. But the alternatives are often worse and I've served and know other lawyers who have also served. However, an informal prohibition of choosing a lawyer practicing in the same area of law as the case that is to be tried is still generally followed. For example, while it might be fine to select, say a bankruptcy lawyer, for a criminal trial jury, few would see selecting a criminal defense lawyer for a criminal case as a viable juror option. For this reason, Elsbeth would never have been selected for this case under normal circumstances, but as shown in the episode, this was far from a "normal" case.

Edited by ahpny
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Daff

Daff

10 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes I guess he will be back for her to find the real killer. I was wondering how they were going to do that, but by the end it seemed clear they would have another episode. 
So many wrongs in this episode. Besides the weather, Elsbeth was also talking to outsiders about the case. 

I just don’t want to see him raise a bat around her.

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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

3 hours ago, ahpny said:

Indeed, though jury shananagans as shown here and cell phone use do not happen in New York courts, the plight of a lawyer selected as a juror has particular resonance to those of us who are lawyers but have also been called for jury duty. And it is true that gamesmanship is quite present in how best to avoid being choosen and serving. It is also true that in most cases, most lawyers choosing jurors would exclude other lawyers as potential jurors if the alteratives are not worse. But the alternatives are often worse and I've served and know other lawyers who have also served. However, an informal prohibition of choosing a lawyer practicing in the same area of law as the case that is to be tried is still generally followed. For example, while it might be fine to select, say a bankruptcy lawyer, for a criminal trial jury, few would see selecting a criminal defense lawyer for a criminal case as a viable juror option. For this reason, Eslbeth would never have been selected for this case under normal circumstances, but as shown in the episode, this was far from a "normal" case.

This is exactly right.  FWIW, I'm also an attorney, and I always get picked for juries in New York County.  I've served on two criminal trials.  I don't practice criminal law, so there's not that factor.  I think also I come across as a balanced individual -- I am incapable of saying crazy things to try to get out of serving. 

The case on the show last night was insane.  I can't believe Elsbeth was not sanctioned for her behavior.  Mostly because the judge was hiding his own misbehavior, so there's that.  But isn't he going to be able to find out who she is and that she's going to Columbo his ass?  He should be worried. 

But it really was funny how she was signaling the objections from the jury box.

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

The judge being actively evil while the defense being atrocious did help cover up some of the legal no nos in the episode.

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

But it really was funny how she was signaling the objections from the jury box.

As a fan of the character from The Good Wife and The Good Fight, I enjoyed seeing her back in the legal arena.

 

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AnimeMania

AnimeMania

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I wonder if they run their (mutual) lines with each other at home, and make suggestions on delivery.

There were hundreds of articles about this, I believe they said that they don't run lines together or try to alter each other's performance.

I don't like the Judge being the murderer because they probably can not bring the character back later unless they do something extremely tricky.

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mojito

mojito

34 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

I don't like the Judge being the murderer because they probably can not bring the character back later unless they do something extremely tricky.

Like he gets off for the crime and returns to the bench like a creepy villain on those stupid crime shows, the main character's nemesis who keeps getting away? Ugh. I hope not.

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Zaffy

Zaffy

I so much enjoyed this episode! Big part for it that those two are a real couple and it was great watching them acting together. 
I guess it wasn't quite realistic, legally speaking,  but it  was so much fun I did not care at all.

Plus her son is amazing and casting this actor was fantastic, he really looks like her son.
For me, best episode of the series so far.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

2 hours ago, mojito said:

Like he gets off for the crime and returns to the bench like a creepy villain on those stupid crime shows, the main character's nemesis who keeps getting away? Ugh. I hope not.

I have always loathed the Big Bad on shows like The Mentalist or Rizzoli & Isles or Bones or The Closer/Major Crimes. 
But given these 2 particular actors and their special relationship off camera, I am willing to have it be the exception to my rule.

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I don't like the Judge being the murderer because they probably can not bring the character back later unless they do something extremely tricky.

I think they could bring him back a few times and have him be a judge on Elsbeth-related prosecutions. 

But eventually, I'd hope she manages to get him caught.  I don't love a multi-season big bad but I wouldn't mind a season-long bad as we learn more about why he committed the murder.  Maybe he will commit more murders as part of covering up whatever he is covering up and instead of a juror, Elsbeth can act as a defense attorney.  Or she can call in some friends from old firms. 

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DearEvette

DearEvette

33 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I have always loathed the Big Bad on shows like The Mentalist or Rizzoli & Isles or Bones or The Closer/Major Crimes. 
But given these 2 particular actors and their special relationship off camera, I am willing to have it be the exception to my rule

Ugh. I hate those too.

I actually thought the way they constructed this was very smart and keeps the door open in a really logical way to bring him back without it seeming that  they are doing it solely to capitalize on the relationship between the actors.  It wasn't an easy solve for one episode. I like the change up in the formula here.

First it wasn't a crime Elsbeth was investigating and there was nothing connecting the judge to the victim so she had no reason to look at him as any sort of a suspect.

Second, they limited all the information to what was presented at trial and the defense lawyer was so bad and the judge was so slick, that the lawyer could not mount an effective defense and introduce his own evidence. Elsbeth had no real information to work with.

Third, she obviously knew the judge wasn't quite right, but the inept lawyer was a bigger detriment to the accused than the judge was and acted as an immediate distraction. It wasn't until later she paid more attention to her instincts about  the judge and realized he was railroading the accused, but again there was no reason to suspect the judge of actually being involved in the crime itself until the very end with the disco clue. 

So yeah, this is a very neat way to keep him in the mix without creating some super obvious clunky expositional way to do it.

That said, I hope he isn't around for multiple episodes and becomes some endless nemesis. They are already setting her up for one of those with whatever is happening with her old client from Chicago.

Something prompted the Judge to kill the guy at this point in time, so something about whatever secret he knew must have come to light and the judge got antsy. It seems logical that will somehow come across Elsbeth's path to put this man back on her rader and then she'll connect the dots.

Outside of that,  I know Chaz's ineptitude might have been ramped up for comic effect, but I can't lie i found Chaz funny.  The actor had great line delivery and timing.

When the judge denied his peremptory challenge of Elsbeth reminding him he'd used the all of them, Chaz's response of "But I would way prefer those people to her."  cracked me up.  Just the way he said it.  And his unprompted, yet straight faced admission of his wife finding about his other family.  LOL.  I hope we see him again.

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babyrambo

babyrambo

I enjoyed the court scene—at times I felt like I was watching Emerson playing Leland, doing a lawyer impersonation, but I think that’s because because both his character in Evil and this judge are so smarmy—but I really liked seeing Elsbeth with her son. Haven’t seen the actor in anything else but in this role he really reminded of Jacob from Abbott Elementary, not so much in personality and line delivery (Jacob is a lot goofier) but a little bit facially,  their mouths are similar. 

3 hours ago, Zaffy said:

Plus her son is amazing and casting this actor was fantastic, he really looks like her son.

They really felt like family, with such sweet chemistry. I loved that Elsbeth talked about him so much to her coworkers. TV relationships where the kids, especially adult kids, genuinely enjoy spending time with their parents feel so rare but I love to see it, no matter how cheesy. 

Gritty procedurals have their place—Dick Wolf will make sure of that lol—but this show is such an enjoyable watch even with the unexpectedly dark twists of some of their cases and I really like that. Slick shenanigans, when done right, are fun. 

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Yeah No

Yeah No

Late to post here but I agree with much that's already been said. I really liked this episode a lot even though I knew that there were many legal no-nos. I wonder what the judge is guilty of that he would commit murder to make sure it didn't get out. I'm sure we'll find out. I like it that this will be revisited.

I love the choice of actor for Elsbeth's son and as mentioned already, their fantastic chemistry. I split my sides at the scene where Elsbeth was blubbering about them not being able to see shows and go for walks on the High Line.

I also laughed when the judge made sure to bring up his Mayflower ancestry. Yikes, how out of touch and full of himself. I just love it that he's played by Carrie's real life husband.

 BTW, in case anyone was wondering, the courtroom they used was not in NYC but in nearby Yonkers, NY. It's the City Hall Ceremonial Courtroom. That tidbit is thanks to my architecture buff husband.

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Yeah No

Yeah No

2 hours ago, Daff said:
19 hours ago, possibilities said:

I was so upset by that! What depraved person would handle vinyl in that way?!?

This must be a generational thing. 

 

Of course it is. If you never had to care for vinyl, and only handled discs, how could you possibly know?

He didn't look too young to have handled CDs or DVDs and holding them properly is pretty much the same. So it's just common sense in my opinion, which I am fully aware is getting rarer these days.

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Cress

Cress

12 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Something prompted the Judge to kill the guy at this point in time, so something about whatever secret he knew must have come to light and the judge got antsy. It seems logical that will somehow come across Elsbeth's path to put this man back on her rader and then she'll connect the dots.

I think Elsbeth's son said "he's up for a federal bench position" or something like that. If the judge is being vetted for some big promotion, then he's afraid of any skeletons in his closet getting out. He killed Andy because Andy knew of some skeleton, and the judge still didn't trust Andy to be silent. I hope Elsbeth will figure it out and get enough evidence of Andy's murder so that the judge can be arrested. Maybe he'll make more mistakes in his coverup so she can defeat him.

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possibilities

possibilities

I'm still hung up on the record handling. 

He had vinyl. That makes him a record afficionato. So he should know better.

This is a failure of the director as well as the actor.

--

I like the theory that Elsbeth was acting out in the jury pool because she saw not only that the defense atty was not paying attention but also that the judge was garbage.

She might have felt compelled because that's the kind of person she is, but she could also have maybe hoped that if things blew back on her for doing it, she could get a complaint lodged somewhere? I don't know. If there had been reporters around, it would have been a scandal how things were going, but I guess the case wasn't big enough news for reporters to be present. So risking censure might have been a way for her to formally get attention to how outrageous the judge was and why she did what she did. I can see her falling on her sword to get that on record somewhere.

Honestly, I'd hope a mistrial would have been possible on appeal if the girlfriend had been convicted, based on all the shenanigans, lack of effective counsel, bizarre judge and jury behavior. 

Elsbeth probably thought even if her behavior was out of line, it would just help the defendent get the whole mess ruled too chaotic to count?

--

The inspector guy suddenly deciding Elsbeth is an asset felt unearned. I haven't noticed Elsbeth commenting on how her colleagues beehave, especially not in terms of things like how they store their lunches. She was really only watching for corruption, not petty annoyances. And wasn't her consent decree role finished anyway? I thought they decided to keep her as a consultant even though that had been resolved?

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Yeah No

Yeah No

2 hours ago, Driad said:

When the judge mentioned his Mayflower ancestry, Elsbeth made a comment about the Salem witch trials IIRC.  She (and the writers) should know that the Pilgrims and the Puritans were different groups of people, with different goals.

Thank you that bugged me too. The Pilgrims of Mayflower fame came here to separate themselves from the Church of England and start their own church, and the Puritans were part of the Church of England, although a reformed segment within it. And the Salem Witch trials began early enough that I would presume that not many of those people were related to the Pilgrims.

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DearEvette

DearEvette

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

The inspector guy suddenly deciding Elsbeth is an asset felt unearned. I haven't noticed Elsbeth commenting on how her colleagues beehave, especially not in terms of things like how they store their lunches. She was really only watching for corruption, not petty annoyances. And wasn't her consent decree role finished anyway? I thought they decided to keep her as a consultant even though that had been resolved?

IIRC, he mentioned several policing mistakes, e.g. a cop arresting a suspect's twin instead of the suspect, that had happened during Elsbeth's time in Jury duty, alluding that these are things that her observations/presence helped prevent. So he was finally seeing the benefit of her presence because of her absence.  At least that was my takeaway.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

Several comments have said this:

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

The inspector guy suddenly deciding Elsbeth is an asset felt unearned.

but:

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

he mentioned several policing mistakes, e.g. a cop arresting a suspect's twin instead of the suspect, that had happened during Elsbeth's time in Jury duty, alluding that these are things that her observations/presence helped prevent. So he was finally seeing the benefit of her presence because of her absence.

Also, the character seems to be neurodivergent. If so, most of his dialogue will be written to illustrate his point of view of the world. 

 

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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

That was fantastic!!!! Love Elsbeth vs Evil Judge. I enjoyed the dynamics. He had the power as the judge but had to put up with Elsbeth’s shenanigans somewhat because he had a different interest in the case. Can’t wait to see them face off again.

The Teddy actor looks so much like Carrie Preston!!!! I was worried when they decided to introduce Elsbeth’s kid. I didn’t want an “Elsbeth deals with son’s angst” storyline but he was nice and cheerful just like the rest of the show.

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TV Anonymous

TV Anonymous

IANAL, but I sat in a jury once.

This whole episode is weird for me from a legal PoV. Yes, I understand that it is a drama-comedy, but this episode requires a lot of suspension of disbelief.

  • I do not know about New York, but in my jurisdiction a practicing lawyer is one of the occupations ineligible to sit in the jury. Perhaps to prevent a scenario exactly like this?
  • What kind of courtroom allows the usage of cellphone during proceeding? Not only that, the cellphone was not even on silence.

What is the story of the incompetent lawyer? It feels like TPTB wants to drop the bridge on the accused. Framed for murder, get the actual murderer as a judge, and get an incompetent defense attorney. On that note, how did the judge get this case?

On the plot, how did the murdering judge know that the defendant would come to the victim's apartment, make love, and take shower? There was a lot of happenstances that would not happen if one part did not work out.

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AnimeMania

AnimeMania

1 hour ago, TV Anonymous said:

On the plot, how did the murdering judge know that the defendant would come to the victim's apartment, make love, and take shower? There was a lot of happenstances that would not happen if one part did not work out.

I thought this was the most believable (logical) part of the episode. If the Judge had staked out his victim long enough before planning the murder, he would probably learn all these things. I was just wondering how long the Judge was in the apartment before he made his attack.

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possibilities

possibilities

I thought it was extra lucky that the judge got the case, and his extremely outrageous behavior during the trial seemed like an obvious clue that he had a motive beyoind actually determining guilt or innnocense of the accused.

But I think it's a reasonable gamble to think she would be convicted even if she got a different judge, and he was just lucky (or maybe unlucky, since he overplayed his hand by acting so outrageous) that the murderer got the assignment.

The girlfriend had the bloody bat and her prints were on it, there was a restraining order against her, and they didn't have any other obvious suspects. I think that it would have been enough for the cops to think-- we have no other leads! and then even if she was acquitted, they might not prioritize continuing to look for someone else.

A very high percentage of cases are never solved, and she didn't have a lot of money to hire a really good defense attorney. Even if most lawyers don't spend the trial texting their spouse and ignoring the proceedings, it's true that the less money you have, the less you can spend on defending yourself and in this case I think the judge/murderer was just counting nobody seeing HIM do the crime, and the girlfriend was a good distraction, enough that it might mean the original investigation was not thorough and nobody would look into any possible alternate theories that could possibly show that the victim and this judge kknew each other at all. 

The show is obviously exaggerated and contrived every episode, and in lots of ways. They were definitely piling on. I don't even think Elsbeth had to have extra spidey sense this time, to guess something was up. But I think a case could be made that the judge/murderer didn't even count on as many breaks as he got with this, and it was BECAUSE "luck" was on his side that he actually got caught and his scheme failed, not BECAUSE of all those extra factors.

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ItCouldBeWorse

ItCouldBeWorse

(edited)
On 12/13/2024 at 9:21 PM, DearEvette said:

When the judge denied his peremptory challenge of Elsbeth reminding him he'd used the all of them, Chaz's response of "But I would way prefer those people to her."  cracked me up.  Just the way he said it.  And his unprompted, yet straight faced admission of his wife finding about his other family.  LOL.  I hope we see him again.

Watch 30 Rock if you want to see the actor in another funny role!

On 12/14/2024 at 1:34 PM, possibilities said:

He had vinyl. That makes him a record afficionato. So he should know better.

This is a failure of the director as well as the actor.

Agreed.

 

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

On 12/16/2024 at 9:20 AM, TV Anonymous said:

IANAL, but I sat in a jury once.

This whole episode is weird for me from a legal PoV. Yes, I understand that it is a drama-comedy, but this episode requires a lot of suspension of disbelief.

  • I do not know about New York, but in my jurisdiction a practicing lawyer is one of the occupations ineligible to sit in the jury. Perhaps to prevent a scenario exactly like this?
  • What kind of courtroom allows the usage of cellphone during proceeding? Not only that, the cellphone was not even on silence.

What is the story of the incompetent lawyer? It feels like TPTB wants to drop the bridge on the accused. Framed for murder, get the actual murderer as a judge, and get an incompetent defense attorney. On that note, how did the judge get this case?

On the plot, how did the murdering judge know that the defendant would come to the victim's apartment, make love, and take shower? There was a lot of happenstances that would not happen if one part did not work out.

In NY lawyers used to be excused, not excluded, as were other professions, such as doctors. They had to eliminate those excuse pools because they didn’t have enough jurors. 
No courtroom would allow phone use during proceedings. That was insane. 
How did the judge get assigned? Totally makes no sense, as the judges are randomly selected. 

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Yeah No

Yeah No

6 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

In NY lawyers used to be excused, not excluded, as were other professions, such as doctors. They had to eliminate those excuse pools because they didn’t have enough jurors. 
No courtroom would allow phone use during proceedings. That was insane. 
How did the judge get assigned? Totally makes no sense, as the judges are randomly selected. 

These days NY doesn't outright excuse anyone. CT still excuses active duty military, police and fire personnel and many more. 

shapeshifter

shapeshifter

7 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

How did the judge get assigned? Totally makes no sense, as the judges are randomly selected.

I suppose there could be a future reveal of how the judge did some backroom finagling to get assigned to the case — something short of beating to death with a baseball bat all the judges to whom it was first assigned, since this is not a Monty Python sketch. 
But more likely — or at least, I'd prefer — the judge did Not expect to get the case, and that will be part of how he gets caught. 
IDK. It could work well either way. The writers are capable.

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Milburn Stone

Milburn Stone

A detail to do with the filming interested me. We never see Preston and Emerson in a two-shot until the end of the trial, when they confront each other on the courthouse steps. Until then, it's a shot of him without her in it, or vice versa; or it's a shot of him over her out-of-focus back shoulder (which could belong to stand-in), or vice versa. For a shot that features the two of them equally and unequivocally, you have to wait for that courthouse-steps scene. This was clearly a directorial (or show runner) choice, because it wouldn't happen by mere chance. My guess it was driven by TPTB awareness that many in the audience knew the actors were spouses and were waiting for them to face off not just figuratively but literally; holding it till the end built a meta kind of suspense. 

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