S01.E06: Sixteen Steps

[chitowngirl]

As Olympia and Julian get a second shot at a case regarding a death due to contaminated baby formula, their past work on the investigation gives glimpses into what led to their divorce; Matty's overwhelming stress causes her to consider quitting.

[AnimeMania]

Emily Bridges as Marie Cassano

Ayesha Harris as Vanessa

Henry LeBlanc as Stanley

Alisha Ricardi as Penny

Steven Lee Allen as Judge Clay Shelton  

Next New Episode: December 5, 2024  

[DanaK]

Definitely an emotional episode, especially with Matty meeting her old friend

I actually like Julian and Olympia together again

[MerBearHou]

Emily Bridges — daughter of Beau

[AnimeMania]

So Matty drives 15 minutes? to her house, waits another 15 minutes? for an ambulance to arrive, just so that the paramedics can spend another 15 minutes? taking her to a hospital for a heart attack.

How did she get out of her clothes and into her silk pajamas? Just go straight to the hospital. 

[nilyank]

So is Matty and hubby wealthy due to family money inherited or from Matty's years as attorney? Because hubby said he is retired professor that really doesn't make bank.

Also their daugther died 10-12 years ago? How does grandson whose name I cannot remember remember mom when she died when he was a toddler?

I like seeing how Olympia/Julian's marriage fell apart around the time they lost the case and started when Olympia's dad died and he was unable to be there for her during her grief. And I like even more that they are track to getting back together. I really don't either one of them had anything to do with hiding the file.

[Bastet]

I enjoyed this look back, although blech to divorce sex and potential reconciliation at the end; it's so much more interesting for a couple to navigate an amicable divorce. 

The presentation of Olympia was a bit broad in the first few episodes, but she has pointed out white privilege from jump, and that has been increasingly developed, so I have long been all in with her -- in this episode it manifests with her talking to Julian about putting their Black kids in a rich white kids school and then ignoring what she explains about the higher standards to which they'll be held.

I also liked the continuity of Olympia referring to Sarah and Billy by their names instead of "you two".  It's like Olympia and Julian agreeing in episode two to divorce better, and indeed doing so going forward; so many shows will give characters a breakthrough moment of growth that never actually goes anywhere.

Interesting timeline info in this, that it was two years ago Alfie saw the Reddit post and Matty hatched her plan; I figured it was fairly recent, and that's a good span of time to make the details of her plan believable.

I loved the connection between Olympia and Matty as moms.  When Matty's deception is revealed, the complexity of Olympia's reaction is going to be fascinating.

I cannot with people opposed to prenups, but TV loves to parade a string of characters, including lawyers, with that view, so I was annoyed by that sub-plot.  I'm going to laugh really hard if when he brings it up to Claudia, her reaction is, "Of course we're doing a pre-nup; I'm not getting married without one."

I'm also rolling my eyes at EMTs making the call it's all good, rather than transporting to the ER and letting the doctors make that evaluation after a battery of tests.

Edited Friday at 08:14 PM by Bastet

[Nashville]

48 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I'm also rolling my eyes at EMTs making the call it's all good, rather than transporting to the ER and letting the doctors make that evaluation after a battery of tests.

Gotta love Hollywood. 😂

(My wife was a paramedic for several years)

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

I loved the connection between Olympia and Matty as moms.  When Matty's deception is revealed, the complexity of Olympia's reaction is going to be fascinating.

Yeah - I can't see them doing a complete switch with Olympia at this point, so there's no way she was actively involved with the opioid case.  Julian comes across as well meaning but also oblivious to certain things.  Senior is still the most likely suspect, especially since Beau Bridges is only a recurring character.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

This is more of the backstory and the Kathy Bates acting  I was hoping for, and I'm glad it delivered.

I am still hungry for more about adult Ellie and her addiction, and Matty's interactions with that. It is easy to have fond memories of innocent 5 year old Ellie on the playground. Not quite as easy to have such memories about 35? year old Ellie sneaking around, stealing money, being abusive, lying about her fixes and what not.

The notion that this was two years in the making is scary and again doesn't really make sense that Matty would have gone and stayed this route.

I did like the notion that Matty's chance encounter with Olympia set off so much in both of their lives. The fact that Senior was so much in her camp made me think that there had to be an affair or something worse than what was portrayed in this episode leading to the divorce ask.

I cannot ignore the absurdity of the COTW "You won't have to testify" business, though. There is no conceivable way that a lawyer trying to bring a case on behalf of a client would without having the client testify both at a deposition and at trial. Promising a client "you won't have to testify" at the onset would probably be malpractice. I'm not sure how the plaintiff would establish what supposedly happened or her damages WITHOUT her own testimony. The defense would have a right to know what they would say and to attack the plaintiff's theory of the case, including by cross-examining the plaintiff.

Nor would any competent lawyer want to try to bring a case without the plaintiff's testimony even if they technically could. One would want the jury's sympathy, and that could really only be accomplished through both parents testifying. 

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

I enjoyed this look back, although blech to divorce sex and potential reconciliation at the end; it's so much more interesting for a couple to navigate an amicable divorce. 

The presentation of Olympia was a bit broad in the first few episodes, but she has pointed out white privilege from jump, and that has been increasingly developed, so I have long been all in with her -- in this episode it manifests with her talking to Julian about putting their Black kids in a rich white kids school.

 One of the things that appeals to me about Olympia is that as written and acted, the character is organically and definitively Black. Hollywood has a tendency to do one of two things with diversity: cast actors who are diverse but for all intents and purposes play characters that could be of any background, or put their race so far in the foreground and make it all that they talk about and/or stereotypical. You could have the actress who plays Olympia play Sarah and nothing would seem off thus far. But if you had the Sarah actress play Olympia it wouldn't fit. Olympia feels like a fleshed out human, or at least as much of one as one can expect this far into a show. I do wonder if they will bring more of her Baptist background into the mix, and if she's still a believer. It doesn't strike me that there's a big interracial marriage component among Black Baptists, but maybe that's my ignorance.

 

[babyrambo]

Seems like as saddened as he is by his daughter’s death, the husband is mainly on this crusade for Matty. And since she’s finally in pharma, she’s either going to talk him back in or sneak around. Either way, I hope they wrap up the mystery of who it was by the end of this season and then pull back a bit on that angle going forward. It’s unsustainable and getting a bit tiresome. 

But I really liked the case of the week. The actress who played Vanessa was great, not just when she broke down on the stand, but with how deeply she radiated grief, even when she was trying to act detached and hold herself together with Olympia. 

And the writing for Olympia has really bloomed since the pilot. I love the layers the actress brings to the role. She’s got the super expressive eyes, that always reveal her character’s true emotions without her having to say anything. 

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One of the things that appeals to me about Olympia is that as written and acted, the character is organically and definitively Black

She really is! From her hair, which is always laid, down to her little phrases and character complexities. And they didn’t linger on it, but her point about black kids at a rich PWI (predominantly white institution) rang true. I went to a uniform high school that was lax about accessories sand hair styling yet black students would get infractions for uniform and hair by one teacher in particular, that seemed to never notice the white students doing the same thing. A friend once asked that teacher why the same rules didn’t seem to apply equally, and the teacher said she wasn’t talking about ‘normal’ hair. Just ours. And this was in a relatively diverse and socially aware town and not that long ago. Racism isn’t just slurs and blatantly hateful rhetoric. Mircoragressions and unfair standards are a reality and while I saw Julian’s point about having an equal say in the kid’s life, there are nuances and consequences for biracial/black kids that he can’t relate to and I would’ve liked to see them go a little deeper into it. Especially since he and Olympia seem to be back together? (for now anyway).

The pyjama comment was also familiar & made me laugh because my mother had the same reaction when we first moved abroad. She couldn’t believe pajama day was thing and I just remember thinking that a country where kids could sometimes wear pjs to school and con grown ups into letting them go door to door for free candy in costumes (Halloween) was probably kid paradise, ha. 

Speaking of kids, Matty and Olympia keep bonding over motherhood and Olympia is almost fond of her now. That scene where Matty explained how it felt to lose her daughter felt like it’s was foreshadowing that when Matty’s act is finally revealed, Olympia might be more sympathetic than expected. 

Billy and Sarah might not though. They took a back seat this week (I thought that comment about them making a good couple was hinting at something but then I remembered the interview with the showrunner where she said Sarah was a lesbian so that nips that in the bud, which I’m glad for, because an office romance between them would be so boring) but Billy already likes Matty so much. I think his mom called Matty his ‘work abuela’. Sarah might go straight to anger but he will be pretty hurt. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I did like the notion that Matty's chance encounter with Olympia set off so much in both of their lives.

I must've missed something. 
Twice they showed the flashback of Mattie spilling coffee on Olivia's white suit.
When was that? 

[DearEvette]

This was probably my favorite episode so far.  Even though the daughter stuff is still not making a lot of sense for me.

Stuff I liked:

The utilization of Olympia's gorgeous cream colored suit.  During the first flashback when Matty spilled on it and Olympia's reaction to her which Matty  saw as a sign to pursue her cause, I thought to myself, you never know what someone else is going through. She saw Olympia being mean as justification that the lawyers were bad, but what if Olympia herself was going through something and Matty just made it worse? And sure enough. When they showed her wearing that again during a later flashback during her argument with Julian and it was the day of the first verdict, it clicked.  And then she brought it out again in present time, I knew her wearing it would be the visual trigger that something would happen that Matty would see as another sign.

I liked that one mother who looked and sounded like a young Angela Bassett.  And, NGL, Not!Angela's testimony was excellent.  The actress bodied that scene. 

Also, look at Olympia code switching during her convo with that worker guy, Teddy!  Her elocution went from crisp,white-shoe-law-firm professional to girl from around the way real quick.

I really liked that Matty's husband said all the things that I think needed to be said to her.  And verified my suspicion from a few episodes ago that he was not on board with what she was doing.

In what I found was a great little detail, after the verdict when Matty was reassuring Not!Angela that she make them take responsibility, Not!Angela just looked at Matty with a still very sad expression.  It really was signalling that even if Matty gets whatever it is she needs on the firm, she may not be as satisfied as she thinks.

I am not sure how I feel about Olympia and Julian getting back together.  I was rather enjoying their friendly divorce.

The stuff that bugged:

This epsiode didn't do my opinion of Matty any favors.  She is so super focused on her feelings for her daughter that she is doing her husband and grandson a disservice.  And she was kinda cruel to that old friend, cutting him off abruptly and yelling she never wanted to see him again when she noticed Olympia. It is all giving very selfish, that she is not doing this for anything but to make herself feel better.  She is 75 years old, like her husband said why not enjoy your grandson and the rest of your life and the good memories?  But then there would not be drama, I guess.

Which brings me to the timeline.

13 hours ago, Bastet said:

Interesting timeline info in this, that it was two years ago Alfie saw the Reddit post and Matty hatched her plan; I figured it was fairly recent, and that's a good span of time to make the details of her plan believable.

See, this is where I scratch my head a little.  She says her daughter died 10 years ago. Right?  So if Alfie is 12 now then Ellie died when he was two.  So that would mean they were talking to Alfie  about the specifics of the drug (don't know if Wellbrexa is the drug or the company) his mother took when he was a child? So much so that he would recognize the name of it and the law firm involved in the suit in a Reddit post when he was 10 years old? Really?

[Bastet]

31 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

In what I found was a great little detail, after the verdict when Matty was reassuring Not!Angela that she make them take responsibility, Not!Angela just looked at Matty with a still very sad expression.  It really was signalling that even if Matty gets whatever it is she needs on the firm, she may not be as satisfied as she thinks.

I loved that scene.  Yes, the company was held legally liable.  Yes, they have tremendous financial security to raise this second child.  But their first child is still dead.  A verdict doesn't fix that.  Nothing can.

Which brings me to another favorite scene:  Matty describing surviving the loss of a child as learning to breathe again on a new planet that is totally inhospitable to human life, and Olympia's reaction to that.

53 minutes ago, babyrambo said:

That scene where Matty explained how it felt to lose her daughter felt like it’s was foreshadowing that when Matty’s act is finally revealed, Olympia might be more sympathetic than expected. 

It's definitely going to be a layered, and conflicting, reaction.  Olympia does not trust easily, so she is going to feel betrayed.  But she knows the worst thing that could ever happen to her is losing a child, and she knows the quest to get some measure of justice is what she'd feel, so she'll sympathize with the motivation and question what lines she might have crossed in Matty's position.  It's going to be messy, and it's going to take time, but I have no doubt they will wind up allies again (because I also have no doubt Olympia was not involved, and does not know of Julian's involvement if there was any).

[possibilities]

I honestly thought the scene at home after the medical emergency was concierge medic, not regular 911 ambulance, that that's why they did it all at home. I am so boggled by how wealthy Matty and her family appear to be, that I genuinely thought they might have a medical team on retainer, with all the equipment needed to test her at home to be sure she was okay. It would probably be quicker than going to the hospital emergency room, as well as less stressful-- people like that don't want to wait and be triaged and have to be in a room separated only be a curtain from random other person's possible contagion. I'm pretty sure that you can diagnose a panic attack vs a heart attack pretty easily, but then I'v enever had either one, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Nashville]

56 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I must've missed something. 
Twice they showed the flashback of Mattie spilling coffee on Olivia's white suit.
When was that? 

Two years earlier, when Mattie was (apparently) doing some kind of initial scouting run of Jacobson Moore.

[Starchild]

Question is, when might Olympia remember that? I suppose if she does, Mattie could position it as a coincidence, wandering around the legal district feeling nostalgic, then finally deciding to come back for real when money troubles got bad, but that's a stretch.

[Bastet]

40 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I'm pretty sure that you can diagnose a panic attack vs a heart attack pretty easily, but then I'v enever had either one, so maybe I'm wrong.

It's fairly straightforward to rule out a heart attack (EKG and blood test for a cardiac enzyme), but then you get a more extensive cardiac work-up to make sure there isn't something else going on with the heart, before the doctors are confident of a rule-out diagnosis that it was a panic attack.  Been there, done that - twice.

41 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I honestly thought the scene at home after the medical emergency was concierge medic, not regular 911 ambulance, that that's why they did it all at home.

Ah, that would make sense.  But it still seemed like she was being seen by EMTs, not a doctor.

(Medical inaccuracies don't bother me like legal inaccuracies, because I don't know enough to become truly irritated.  That's why I try to ignore the legal stuff and just complain about other things that aren't right/don't seem right.)

[AnimeMania]

The person I feel the worst for is the Baby Formula worker who was trying to be a hero and save the company by holding up the pipe. The Jacobson Moore lawyers put all the blame for the contamination on him, even though there really wasn't any proof that he was to blame. He really wanted to get some justice for the couple and came away thinking that he is the reason that their child is dead. And nobody, the Baby Formula company, the couple, or the Jacobson Moore lawyers are going to think twice about what this has done to him.

[MissLucas]

The overall theme of this episode for me was 'fallout'. There was so much of that starting with the glimpses of the breakdown of Olympia and Julian's marriage. He wasn't there for her when her father died (whose last voice message she lost as a fallout of Matty's ploy). Their marital problems caused them to make bad decisions with their case - the verdict was the fallout.

There were many more instances (the cast of the worker and his guilt, Matty's panic attack etc.) but the one that I found particularly haunting was how Matty treated Edwin, her old friend, because she had to prioritize her quest for revenge over his desperation. If I got their conversation right, his son had been a friend of Matty's daughter and was relapsing. Matty cutting their conversation - where she was counseling him on finding the son - could very well end with him not being able to save his son. Sure, that's almost on a butterfly-causing-a-tornado-level of arguing but so much in this episode was actually on that very level. 

Edwin and his son actually reminded me of something: where is Alfie's father? ? I don't think it's the son. But I'm intrigued that I can't remember Dad ever being mentioned.

[eel2178]

55 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Question is, when might Olympia remember that? I suppose if she does, Mattie could position it as a coincidence, wandering around the legal district feeling nostalgic, then finally deciding to come back for real when money troubles got bad, but that's a stretch.

Remember old ladies are invisible? Matty told us that in the first episode, and she in never wrong. The writers wouldn't violate that and have Olympia suddenly remember her, especially because of how self-centered Olympia is supposed to be.

[eel2178]

31 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

The person I feel the worst for is the Baby Formula worker who was trying to be a hero and save the company by holding up the pipe. The Jacobson Moore lawyers put all the blame for the contamination on him, even though there really wasn't any proof that he was to blame. He really wanted to get some justice for the couple and came away thinking that he is the reason that their child is dead. And nobody, the Baby Formula company, the couple, or the Jacobson Moore lawyers are going to think twice about what this has done to him.

How is it that he contaminated the formula with mold, yet no other children were even sickened, let alone died, as the result of the contamination? Was his cast moldy when it was removed?

I'm having trouble grasping how holding a pipe for 2 or 3 minutes while wearing a cast could have caused a contamination that only produced one plaintiff.

[DearEvette]

24 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

Remember old ladies are invisible? Matty told us that in the first episode, and she in never wrong. The writers wouldn't violate that and have Olympia suddenly remember her, especially because of how self-centered Olympia is supposed to be.

Even without Matty being old, unless there is something about them that totally stands out, who is going to remember the face of someone who spilled coffee on you two years ago? Especially if you were barely paying attention to them and you had a lot more important things on your mind? In the elevator immediate after the spill, with the big wonkin' coffee stain on the front Olympia barely gave it a thought.  She was wrapped up in the case and asking Julian for a divorce.

Even when she pulls the suit out in the present day, she doesn't even mention the coffee, the suit is linked in her head to losing the case. So I hope Olympia never remembers Matty bumping into her. It s more believable if she never does.

13 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

How is it that he contaminated the formula with mold, yet no other children were even sickened, let alone died, as the result of the contamination? Was his cast moldy when it was removed?

I think him holding it up introduced a bacteria (from his cast) into a formerly sterile environment.  But that does not explain why no one else was part of the case.  Even if this baby was the only one that actually died, others would have at least been sick. 

Edited Friday at 10:34 PM by DearEvette

[andromeda331]

Yeah I didn't like how Matty treated her old friend to maintain her lie. Poor guy was devastated and needed someone to talk to. 

I like the mom's reaction to the settlment. Happy but at the same time not. It doesn't change anything. Her baby is still dead. I don't think Matty picked up on it. But maybe it's too soon. She's still clearly in revenge mode. I like that her husband isn't completely on board with the plan. It works better. 

I don't like Olympia and Julian getting back together. I liked seeing a couple for once divorcing without all the usual TV drama. I was also sure Julian cheated on her which was his father took her side. It was still good to see their marriage falling a part at the same time a case went bad.

I like Olympia and Matty bonding over their kids. I really liked Olympia worried about the mom. She needed to get her to relieve the pain in order to testify. But at the same time didn't want to make her relieve her worse pain.

I too worry that the baby food company is going to blame the one guy for what happened even though it wasn't his fault.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I must've missed something. 
Twice they showed the flashback of Mattie spilling coffee on Olivia's white suit.
When was that? 

Two years ago Matty was scouting Jacobson Moore to figure out whether to pursue the Reddit lead about the firm causing the opioid crisis. Olympia ran into her and got coffee all over her blazer and was bitchy toward her.

Matty apparently took this as a sign that Jacobson Moore needed to be taken down a peg. 

The interaction with Matty (combined with having just lost the case against the baby food manufacturer) also apparently crystalized for Olympia both that she wanted a divorce from Julian and that she wanted to stop being as much of a corporate drone and do more meaningful cases.

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Which brings me to the timeline.

See, this is where I scratch my head a little.  She says her daughter died 10 years ago. Right?  So if Alfie is 12 now then Ellie died when he was two.  So that would mean they were talking to Alfie  about the specifics of the drug (don't know if Wellbrexa is the drug or the company) his mother took when he was a child? So much so that he would recognize the name of it and the law firm involved in the suit in a Reddit post when he was 10 years old? Really?

Not that it necessarily matters, but the years could be fudged. It could be 10 years, plus or minus a couple, and Alfie could be anywhere from 12-14 or so with not much problem.

But I would say Ellie wouldn't necessarily have had to be on Wellbrexa itself to trigger Alfie's radar. Ellie could have gotten addicted through any number of brand name opioids or even generic ones. It's just that (hypothetically in the show's premise) if Wellbrexa got what was coming to it 14 (or however many) years ago, it would have shown how dangerous opioids were back then, and opioids would have been taken off the market more than a decade ago, which would then have led in some way to Ellie still being alive. They haven't drawn the causal connection very tightly on that last bit. But it could be because Ellie had been taking Wellbrexa herself. It could be that Wellbrexa cleared the space for other Big Pharma companies to sell opioids that ended up being what Ellie took. Probably other possibilities as well.

58 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

The person I feel the worst for is the Baby Formula worker who was trying to be a hero and save the company by holding up the pipe. The Jacobson Moore lawyers put all the blame for the contamination on him, even though there really wasn't any proof that he was to blame. He really wanted to get some justice for the couple and came away thinking that he is the reason that their child is dead. And nobody, the Baby Formula company, the couple, or the Jacobson Moore lawyers are going to think twice about what this has done to him.

I know the hero of the show has to get the win, but the explanation for the Baby Formula worker contaminating the food is such a stretch. Especially because a) wouldn't they have shut the machinery down while he was holding the pipe b) wouldn't they have figured about the contamination risk c) wouldn't other people have gotten sick from the same batch that he contaminated? 

I don't see how Our Heroes made their case here, when there's still the strong possibility that Dante's death was either just one of those things or was caused by his moms.

I guess the notion of the former foreman having a pricey lifestyle was a bit of a red herring.

 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I must've missed something. 
Twice they showed the flashback of Mattie spilling coffee on Olivia's white suit.
When was that? 

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Two years earlier, when Mattie was (apparently) doing some kind of initial scouting run of Jacobson Moore.

5 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

who is going to remember the face of someone who spilled coffee on you two years ago? Especially if you were barely paying attention to them and you had a lot more important things on your mind?

Okay. Thanks. But since they showed the coffee-spill on the white suit twice, and made a big deal about the white suit, as well as:

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Two years ago Matty was scouting Jacobson Moore to figure out whether to pursue the Reddit lead about the firm causing the opioid crisis. Olympia ran into her and got coffee all over her blazer and was bitchy toward her.

Matty apparently took this as a sign that Jacobson Moore needed to be taken down a peg. 

I think that coffee spill is going to come back to haunt Mattie and/or Olympia. 
This show is really into its Chekhovian flashbacks.

 

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah I didn't like how Matty treated her old friend to maintain her lie. Poor guy was devastated and needed someone to talk to. 

Likely Matty will find out the son died or something and realize she could have been the one to prevent a tragedy.

 

5 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I like the mom's reaction to the settlment. Happy but at the same time not. It doesn't change anything. Her baby is still dead. I don't think Matty picked up on it.

Oh, I think Matty definitely read the Mom's reaction: that dragging up all that sorrow to win the case canceled out any joy in the win. 
However, back here in real life, that $3 mil will pay for IVF treatments for the new baby, college, and everything in between. 

[seacliffsal]

I liked the acting and interactions of this episode.  I thought it was quite a strong episode.  But, I feel for the supervisor who had the broken arm as he will, most likely, blame himself for the rest of his life as he seemed like a really decent person.

However, I am irked even more about Mattie's use of her son in her plan than I was before (which was pretty much) as we clearly saw that the plan started at least two years prior, maybe even longer (as they were scoping out the law firm which means they had looked into some suspicions, etc.).  So, Mattie started using her grandson when he was 9 or 10 years old.  No, just no.  IMO no revenge plot is worth it if one needs to depend on a 9 or 10 year old and then the next years of his life are focused on hacking, dark web, etc.  I so agreed with the grandfather when he talked about focusing on Alfie and giving him a good life.  Even though I enjoy the show (more or less), I will not be rooting for Matty until she starts considering the collateral damage she is causing (husband, grandson, friend whose son is now using, etc.).

[Percysowner]

I think the show is being very clear that Matty, while being the protagonist, is not really "the hero". She has a very clear cause. The emotions behind her actions are very understandable and in many ways relatable. People do want to bring those who hurt a loved one to justice, or at least to bring the people they BELIEVE hurt their loved one to justice. Matty is also doing a lot of underhanded and wrong things to achieve her goals. The show is doing a good job of showing that and criticizing her and her actions. Her husband has real doubts about her mission. We have seen how this has already affected Alfie and, I suspect, will continue to affect him negatively. We see that at least some the people she is targeting are basically good people, not perfect, but not evil either. I will not be surprised if her brushing off Stanley has bad consequences, either by his son dying, or Stanley being hurt trying to find his son. The show portrays a LOT of moral ambiguity. I like the moral ambiguity of it all.

I also know that they needed an actress of Kathy Bates' ability to pull it off. She embodies Matty making her understandable, likable (mostly), driven, grieving, angry and unlikable at times. This show rests on having an actor of her quality to make it work and for me, it really works.

 

[possibilities]

Mattie could have told her friend that she is under a lot of pressure at work and can't talk to him right then, and that it's really important that he never come around or call or otherwise contact her at work, but that she will call him and they can set up a time to figure out about his son when she gets home later.

It's not even that hard to do, and surely he would understand.

That she didn't is just a plot device to underscore the fact that she's lying about her identity to the people she works with, and is willing to sacrifice everything (from Alfie to her friend to other addicts) in her obsession with "honoring" her daughter.

This is very messy and I think it's going to get messier.

 

Edited Saturday at 12:07 AM by possibilities

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Percysowner said:

I think the show is being very clear that Matty, while being the protagonist, is not really "the hero". She has a very clear cause. The emotions behind her actions are very understandable and in many ways relatable. People do want to bring those who hurt a loved one to justice, or at least to bring the people they BELIEVE hurt their loved one to justice. Matty is also doing a lot of underhanded and wrong things to achieve her goals. The show is doing a good job of showing that and criticizing her and her actions.

IMHO the entire premise is more palatable if one simply considers Mattie to be the antihero of the series, and leave it at that.

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

what I found was a great little detail, after the verdict when Matty was reassuring Not!Angela that she make them take responsibility, Not!Angela just looked at Matty with a still very sad expression.  It really was signalling that even if Matty gets whatever it is she needs on the firm, she may not be as satisfied as she thinks.

I loved that scene, I think people brought it up last week, that the story might not be about Matty getting justice but working through her grief.  I think this is the first time it felt like the real story is Matty's journey not the mystery.  

I did feel like Vanessa (I think that was her name) proved that in the end it doesn't matter. Getting revenge or justice is a hollow victory, their child is still dead.  I think Matty's believes this will help her heal but, in the end it might just be the friends she makes and the work she does that helps her.

 

 

[Dowel Jones]

19 hours ago, Bastet said:

I'm also rolling my eyes at EMTs making the call it's all good, rather than transporting to the ER and letting the doctors make that evaluation after a battery of tests.

She might have signed an AMA (Against Medical Advice) off camera, which would release the ambulance company of liability if she refused to go to the hospital.  People do that quite often, only to be transported Code 3 with CPR later on.

Why are people so gullible on TV?  I get that it's a plot necessity, but when Matty stuck her foot in the ex-super's doorway, she was trespassing, and any injury she received would get no sympathy from the police or the courts.  Yet he backed down.

[Percysowner]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Mattie could have told her friend that she is under a lot of pressure at work and can't talk to him right then, and that it's really important that he never come around or call or otherwise contact her at work, but that she will call him and they can set up a time to figure out about his son when she gets home later.

It's not even that hard to do, and surely he would understand.

That she didn't is just a plot device to underscore the fact that she's lying about her identity to the people she works with, and is willing to sacrifice everything (from Alfie to her friend to other addicts) in her obsession with "honoring" her daughter.

This is very messy and I think it's going to get messier.

 

Her mother was addicted to alcohol. Her daughter was addicted to drugs. Those addictions were more important to them than anything else, which is part of addiction. Matty told Alfie that there is a genetic propensity to addiction. What if Matty's addiction is this search for either "justice" or revenge. It's not exactly the same thing, but Matty is starting to go down the same path an addict does.

Edited Saturday at 01:40 AM by Percysowner
clarified wording

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Percysowner said:

I think the show is being very clear that Matty, while being the protagonist, is not really "the hero". She has a very clear cause. The emotions behind her actions are very understandable and in many ways relatable. People do want to bring those who hurt a loved one to justice, or at least to bring the people they BELIEVE hurt their loved one to justice. Matty is also doing a lot of underhanded and wrong things to achieve her goals. The show is doing a good job of showing that and criticizing her and her actions. Her husband has real doubts about her mission. We have seen how this has already affected Alfie and, I suspect, will continue to affect him negatively. We see that at least some the people she is targeting are basically good people, not perfect, but not evil either. I will not be surprised if her brushing off Stanley has bad consequences, either by his son dying, or Stanley being hurt trying to find his son. The show portrays a LOT of moral ambiguity. I like the moral ambiguity of it all.

I also know that they needed an actress of Kathy Bates' ability to pull it off. She embodies Matty making her understandable, likable (mostly), driven, grieving, angry and unlikable at times. This show rests on having an actor of her quality to make it work and for me, it really works.

 

This👆 summary is worthy of appearing some place where you would get paid for writing it, @Percysowner.

While I think a show that highlights moral ambiguity is valuable to the collective zeitgeist, I'm not sure how long I can stomach watching it, even with Kathy Bates doing a lot of the heavy lifting. I've intentionally never seen Misery.

OT: Is Percy a cat or a dog or a horse or a unicorn?

[Percysowner]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

OT: Is Percy a cat or a dog or a horse or a unicorn?

A cat, so Owned by Percy would have been more true. My boy died after 18 years of loving me and me loving him. I'm glad I can keep part of him alive when I post.

[basil]

Quote

I do wonder if they will bring more of her Baptist background into the mix, and if she's still a believer.

Is she a Baptist, though? I thought she just verified the religious worker's guess in order to curry favor with him.

i started disliking this show from the moment the revenge plot was revealed. There is no one on the show that I have any sympathy for...well, Maddy's husband and Ritter's son seem decent enough. The rest of them are pretty awful people.

I love Bates, but I dunno if I can stick with this. I feel like I need a shower after every episode.

Edited Saturday at 07:00 PM by basil

[schnauzergirl]

I was interrupted and missed who the pregnant young woman was and why she was involved.  She wasn't allowed to testify on doctor's orders, but was at the witness table.  Did she also lose a child?  Honestly, she seemed kind of random to me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

34 minutes ago, schnauzergirl said:

I was interrupted and missed who the pregnant young woman was and why she was involved.  She wasn't allowed to testify on doctor's orders, but was at the witness table.  Did she also lose a child?  Honestly, she seemed kind of random to me.

She was Vanessa’s wife.

[Chicago Redshirt]

26 minutes ago, schnauzergirl said:

I was interrupted and missed who the pregnant young woman was and why she was involved.  She wasn't allowed to testify on doctor's orders, but was at the witness table.  Did she also lose a child?  Honestly, she seemed kind of random to me.

The pregnant woman was one of the clients of the week. At the original trial, neither client testified. which Olympia and co. thought might have caused the loss. (Again, it is unbelievable that there could be a trial where either plaintiff did not testify).

At this retrial, the original plan was for the Latina femme to testify on behalf of both clients. But as you gathered she was pregnant with another child, and on doctor's recommendation was supposed to avoid stress. Apparently the thought was that testifying would have been too stressful but sitting though a trial about the death of your son was not. Anyway, Olympia and Co. wanted to have a plaintiff testify so they tried to work with the other client, who was stoic and resentful about having to open up about this. 

[schnauzergirl]

Thanks for clarifying their relationship.  I, too, thought it odd that sitting through the trial would not be stressful, perhaps not as much as testifying would be, but still ....

[possibilities]

I thought that she was on bedrest during the prep phase, so they didn't have time to put her through mock testimony and all of that, and thus she was not ready to testify. But once the trial came around, she was well enough to attend.

At least, that's my excuse. 

I do think testifying is legitimately more stressful than not testifying, though.

[Percysowner]

If the pregnant mother had testified, she would have been subject to cross-examination and that part would be stressful, especially since the defense was trying to prove that the contamination came from the mothers being negligent, not from the factory.

[Chicago Redshirt]

No psychological expert here, but I think that there would still be ample psychological stress from having to relive the death of a son, to have attacks on your parenting, to endure microaggressions about your sexuality if you attend the trial on a day to day basis whether you testify or not. 

I could buy that it would have been particularly acute during the prep phase and so that is why there was the decision for Not!Angela to be the one to testify.

The real reason, of course, was for there to be to contrivance of Matty educating Olympia about her own pain and getting Olympia to figure out how to get Not!Angela to open up. As if Olympia's $1200/hour charging self needed help figuring out how to do that. 

[seacliffsal]

We've seen at least a couple of episodes that were about negligence and the firm's clients won big awards.  I wish they would acknowledge how much the firm makes from these 'feel good' cases as they are very lucrative if won.  Contiency fees and other associated costs.  I wonder if the moms really even walked away with much as the firm would then charge for the first trial as they did win.  Why, yes, I am a bit cynical...

[Bastet]

18 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

We've seen at least a couple of episodes that were about negligence and the firm's clients won big awards.  I wish they would acknowledge how much the firm makes from these 'feel good' cases as they are very lucrative if won.

They said in the first episode that Olympia's deal with Senior, in trying to get this new division off the ground rather than being put back on corporate litigation, is that these cases are pro bono but not -- if she gets the plaintiff an award above the industry average the firm gets a cut of it.  She's trying to prove to him she can still make the firm big money working on cases she cares about by choosing cases she can get huge awards on (which generally means cases where she can get massive punitive damages).  So I guess she's pitching the firm to potential clients by saying they won't take their usual cut unless the award exceeds that average.  (I'm not even going to try to ponder how they'd be calculating the average, given the tremendous variance among cases for the same cause of action.)

[possibilities]

I thought the firm gets a percentage of the award, so the family would get something, just not as much as the total amount. I thought it would be 30% to the firm, but I don't know where I got that number.

Edited Sunday at 04:01 AM by possibilities

[Chicago Redshirt]

The general standard contingency fee for a law firm is between 30-40 percent. in some cases, the winner can seek attorneys' fees from the loser. And the firm can also deduct costs and expenses from the award.

But a firm acting pro bono is acting in the public interest and so is likely doing the work as charity. Maybe they still take their fees if they win, maybe they take them at a reduced rate. Honestly, I don't know.

Lawyers are generally expected to donate some minimum amount of either time or money to public interest legal work, particularly for those who cannot otherwise afford it. The American Bar Association recommends that attorneys do 50 hours a year of such work. Firms often have their associates do such cases as a way to get their associates experience that's risk-free to the firm and to toot their own horn about how much they care. At the same time, the attorneys still have to do the work to keep the bills paid.

In the world of the show, Olympia is a high-powered corporate lawyer who has become less interested in high-powered corporate work and pitched getting to do more public interest work on the condition that the firm still makes money as described above.

I'm not sure if all the cases taken are supposed to be under the public interest deal. Some of them clearly are.

The impression I was under was the case from the pilot was the first test case for the concept. The settlement that client originally was offered was $2 million. They won a $20 million verdict. In real life, it seems like that is about par for the course or a little under given how many years that client served. 

Episode 2 was an acquittal in a criminal case, so that was clearly pro bono and there would be no profit. I suppose that their client there could sue either the cops or someone else for false arrest.

Episode 3 was a $9 million verdict in a wrongful termination case. I'd assume that was a separate thing from the public interest deal, and that the firm would be entitled to $3 million-ish.

Episode 4 was a nominal $6 million victory. But that was not under the public interest deal as the client was the spouse of a longtime client, and of course, the Texas Two-Step means that they were not likely to get the $2 million-ish that they otherwise would. Of course, the other half of the firm got to bill for their representation of the original corporation and for pulling off the Two-Step, so the firm probably billed a couple hundred thousand for that work. .

Episode 5 was the prison case, and the team won $2 million per woman, or $6 million at least if all three of their original plaintiffs were in the mix, possibly more as there were seemingly other inmates who were affected.

Episode 6 was the retrial of a case from two years ago, so it seems like the firm would likely be getting its 30 percent of the $8 million total award, assuming it holds up.

So in summary, Team Olympia has won $43 million in verdicts/settlements (not including the building case) in the short time that Matty has been around, which let's say is about six months. The income to the firm would likely at least $4 million and could be as much as $14.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

They said in the first episode that Olympia's deal with Senior, in trying to get this new division off the ground rather than being put back on corporate litigation, is that these cases are pro bono but not -- if she gets the plaintiff an award above the industry average the firm gets a cut of it.  She's trying to prove to him she can still make the firm big money working on cases she cares about by choosing cases she can get huge awards on (which generally means cases where she can get massive punitive damages).  So I guess she's pitching the firm to potential clients by saying they won't take their usual cut unless the award exceeds that average.  (I'm not even going to try to ponder how they'd be calculating the average, given the tremendous variance among cases for the same cause of action.)

There are services, as I understand it, that summarize jury verdicts with information about not just dollar amounts but some of the facts of the case. So it would be possible for Jacobson Moore to say "OK, in these 5 prison litigation cases where the plaintiff succeeded, the average victory was $1 million, and we got $2 million, so we're going to take our third off the $1 million that we got that was above the average."

Seeing as how they get to pick and choose the points of comparison, I would imagine they would do so in their favor.

And, I suspect that we have put more thought in on the subject than the writers, who just wanted to create conditions where Team Olympia can go from handling a wrongful conviction case to a wrongful termination case to a product-liability case when in real life most lawyers are very specialized in what their practices are.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Episode 2 was an acquittal in a criminal case, so that was clearly pro bono and there would be no profit.

She was representing the accused aunt's as plaintiff in a different suit, and the aunt would only stick with her as counsel in that suit if she defended the nephew (despite not being a criminal defense attorney); we never got any information about the aunt's case.  So, yeah, no profit in that side representation, but she was looking at it as a means to still getting that profit in the main case (and, of course, acquitting an innocent young man; Olympia is really into the doing well by doing good thing).

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Episode 4 was a nominal $6 million victory. But that was not under the public interest deal as the client was the spouse of a longtime client,

I don't think the deceased plaintiff was a long-time client, but a one-off for this case of her (then her husband after she died) against the building owner.  The Big Financial Company was the existing ($10m/year) client, and the conflict necessitating the firewall arose when, in the final stages of that case, BFC bought a bunch of real estate, with Plaintiff's building being one of them. 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The general standard contingency fee for a law firm is between 30-40 percent.

And if it goes to trial rather than resulting in a pre-trial settlement, it's the high end.

I think we're supposed to take all of these cases as part of Olympia's deal with Senior, and I'm trying to go with that; as I say, I try not to scratch much beneath the surface on the reality of the legal stuff as that's historically a very quick way to make me quit watching a show and I'm finding this one increasingly appealing because of the characters.

 

[peachmangosteen]

On 11/15/2024 at 2:26 PM, babyrambo said:

Billy and Sarah might not though. They took a back seat this week (I thought that comment about them making a good couple was hinting at something but then I remembered the interview with the showrunner where she said Sarah was a lesbian so that nips that in the bud, which I’m glad for, because an office romance between them would be so boring)  ...

Not only the interview but the show itself has already said Sarah is a lesbian. I thought that line was funny since I remembered someone here mentioning that initially they figured the show would put Sarah and Billy together. I think that is what many shows would do so that line might have been calling out that trope.

On 11/15/2024 at 4:38 PM, AnimeMania said:

The person I feel the worst for is the Baby Formula worker who was trying to be a hero and save the company by holding up the pipe. The Jacobson Moore lawyers put all the blame for the contamination on him, even though there really wasn't any proof that he was to blame. He really wanted to get some justice for the couple and came away thinking that he is the reason that their child is dead. And nobody, the Baby Formula company, the couple, or the Jacobson Moore lawyers are going to think twice about what this has done to him.

Ugh yes. I hated that the story went that way. There was already so much horribleness in this they didn't need to add another shitty thing to it.

On 11/15/2024 at 5:35 PM, andromeda331 said:

I like the mom's reaction to the settlment. Happy but at the same time not. It doesn't change anything. Her baby is still dead. I don't think Matty picked up on it. But maybe it's too soon.

Matty definitely picked up on it. It's basically what triggered her panic attack. They continue to show that Matty has moments of realization that what's she's doing is not necessarily right but her desire to make someone pay for her daughter's death overtakes it every time so far.

On 11/15/2024 at 6:35 PM, Percysowner said:

I think the show is being very clear that Matty, while being the protagonist, is not really "the hero". She has a very clear cause. The emotions behind her actions are very understandable and in many ways relatable. People do want to bring those who hurt a loved one to justice, or at least to bring the people they BELIEVE hurt their loved one to justice. Matty is also doing a lot of underhanded and wrong things to achieve her goals. The show is doing a good job of showing that and criticizing her and her actions. Her husband has real doubts about her mission. We have seen how this has already affected Alfie and, I suspect, will continue to affect him negatively. We see that at least some the people she is targeting are basically good people, not perfect, but not evil either. I will not be surprised if her brushing off Stanley has bad consequences, either by his son dying, or Stanley being hurt trying to find his son. The show portrays a LOT of moral ambiguity. I like the moral ambiguity of it all.

I also know that they needed an actress of Kathy Bates' ability to pull it off. She embodies Matty making her understandable, likable (mostly), driven, grieving, angry and unlikable at times. This show rests on having an actor of her quality to make it work and for me, it really works.

Fantastic post.

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

... I try not to scratch much beneath the surface on the reality of the legal stuff as that's historically a very quick way to make me quit watching a show and I'm finding this one increasingly appealing because of the characters.

It is very rare for me to give really any shit at all about the plots of shows tbh. I'm in it for the characters every time. And this show is doing a great job with it's characters imo.

Edited Sunday at 02:54 PM by peachmangosteen