S01.E09: Maiden, Mother, Crone

[Sakura12]

The truth about Agatha Harkness and the Witches Road.

 

 

So it was actually Agatha and Billy all along.

She wrote the Witches Road song with her son and Billy made it real. 

I guess she did know who he was the whole time since she said after Sharon died that she didn't think he had in him.  He reminded her of her son, she never thought he was him. Her son was just born sick and she couldn't save him.

Although I guess she cheated Death since she became a ghost and Death hates ghosts. Probably because they don't move on. 

And we got to see comic accurate Billy in his Wiccan outfit and white haired Agatha. 

I hope we get to see Billy and ghost Agatha in VisionQuest. 

We also got to see Agatha go from Maiden to Mother to Crone.

 

Edited October 31 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

That was not the ending I expected but I enjoyed it. I really liked the flashback to Agatha and Nicholas creating the song...I don't understand why she was killing witches, was it to feed/heal Nicholas temporarily?

I like that Agatha died and became a ghost, although I half expect she'll be corporeal at some point in the future.  

I liked this version of Death, not evil or scary just a fact of life and with Nicholas/Agatha she was caring.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I guess Agatha and Wanda had more in common than we thought. Am I to understand that Agatha created Nicky all on her own? The Witches' Road was a scam to rob other witches of their power to what ends? Was Agatha like Galactus and needed a steady supply of magic to survive? Since Nicky wasn't meant to be there, her magic was unable to heal him. Rio didn't take the boy per se, because he was going to die anyway. Agatha got 6 years.

Now on to the start of the Search for Tommy!

[magdalene]

I thought the finale was beautiful to watch. I am still trying to work out in my mind how I actually feel about it.  For a Disney show this turned out to be quite lets say morally nebulous.  Agatha killed a lot of innocent women through the centuries and certainly not for altruistic reasons. Her doomed relationship with her son made me want to weep. Who was the father of the boy? Did she create him from scratch?

And then there is Billy - he had a body count too. He killed people I really liked and who didn't deserve their fate.  How did he actually save Jen, the one that got away?

The show did stick the landing for me.

 

Edited October 31 by magdalene

[Snapdragon]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That was not the ending I expected but I enjoyed it. I really liked the flashback to Agatha and Nicholas creating the song...I don't understand why she was killing witches, was it to feed/heal Nicholas temporarily?

 

I think it's just cuz, in the end, Agatha's evil.  She's been killing witches for centuries, including her own mother, just to increase her own power.  And as she admitted, she was about to kill Alice, Jen and Lilia (poor Sharon would have actually lucked out, since she had no magic to steal) when Billy came down and hexed up the place.  I liked the series overall (and good for youtuber Emergency Awesome. I posted his video in last week's thread, but he totally figured out that the road was really Billy's hex and that everything in it was inspired by Billy's room), but I am a bit bothered that now Billy and Agatha are hanging out, as if she's not crazy evil.  I get that the character is popular (heck, I even own her Funko Pop from WandaVision), but I'm not a fan of turning bad characters gray.  

6 minutes ago, magdalene said:

And then there is Billy - he had a body count too. He killed people I really liked and who didn't deserve their fate.  How did he actually save Jen, the one that got away?

I think because Agatha was going to kill all the witches in the basement but because Billy (unknowingly) made the fake road, she ended up living.

What I am questioning in regards to Jen is that Lilia told her she was the way forward (or something like that), but I don't recall her leading them through anything.  I mean, this show had a better ending than the majority of Marvel Disney+ shows, so I'm not bothered too much by it, but it is a bit of a plot hole.

 

Edited October 31 by Snapdragon

[PurpleTentacle]

I feel a bit dense. Usually I'm pretty good at picking up on these things but they fully had me. I never considered that the road might not be real. Even though the signs were there. People saying it wasn't real, Agatha clearly angeling to drain the other witches, the powers in Billy's family being known to create alternate realities, the road looking like a studio set, the aspect ratios changing for the trials. Though I have to say it is a bit mean that the door to the road only had five corners. If it had had six, we might have clocked the road as a hex sooner.

Only thing I'm a bit iffy about is that Billy created the road, but the road clearly followed rules he knew nothing about. Specifically the Tarot. When he tried to do it, it rained swords and only when Lilia did it correctly, was the trial completed. How did the road know how to read Tarot correctly if Billy didn't know. Oh well, minor inconsistencies. Not that important. I guess I can even fanwank that he unconciously, psychically pulled the rules from Lilia's and Jen's (for the potion trial) minds. Yeah, I think that works.

Nice twist that Agatha and her son came up with the ballad and we saw the process of them creating it.

This show was great. I'm sad it's over, but also glad it ended amazingly. There were some stellar performances by Kathryn Hahn in this episode. I'm always baffled how some people don't seem to get that Agatha, most of the time, is putting on a performance and she isn't a great actress, though seemingly good enough to trick a bunch of witches, but when that persona drops and you see the real Agatha, there is no doubt that unlike Agatha, Hahn is an outstanding actress. Speaking of great actressses, in the few short scenes she was in this episode, we got a glimpse of what Aubrey Plaza is capable of, when she isn't asked to play over the top.

Wondering where this goes from here. Marvel always says you don't have to have seen their shows to get the movies. I guess they can just introduce Wiccan, like they introduced the new Captain America, but will he just have his ghost-pal Agatha Harkness with him? Seems a bit weird. Though if they decide to do that, I'll go with it. Speaking of, I'm a bit surprised that Rio let Agatha get away and just roam around as a ghost. But I guess Agatha is slippery.

I would have liked to get a bit more information about why Agatha's coven tried to kill her. What was the initial incident that kicked all these witch killings off? I mean how many witches could still be alive if that hadn't happened. We have some good specualtions, but I'd really like to know for sure and I kinda doubt we'll get that when/if she and Billy show up in a movie. There is going to be too much else going on. In any case, I hope we won't have to wait too long till we see them again.

[PurpleTentacle]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I hope we get to see Billy and ghost Agatha in VisionQuest. 

Just looked it up. That's slated for 2026. Uff, a long wait again. That's half a decade after he flew off in Wandavision. What is Marvel doing over there. They cranked out like 3 films and multiple shows a year until recently and still couldn't keep up with their storylines? Is it just me or was that a lot tighter before infinity war?

2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Am I to understand that Agatha created Nicky all on her own?

I don't think so.

2 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

What I am questioning in regards to Jen is that Lilia told her she was the way forward (or something like that), but I don't recall her leading them through anything.  I mean, this show had a better ending than the majority of Marvel Disney+ shows, so I'm not bothered too much by it, but it is a bit of a plot hole.

Pretty sure it's meant like "she is the way foreward for witch kind". She is going to be a great leader. That was the imagery that was conveyed at that moment.

[PurpleTentacle]

I just have to say one more time what a banger The Ballad of the Witches Road is. All versions are great, but particularly the Lorna Wu version I've listened to a bunch of times since the episode with it in it came out.

The Agatha Through Time version from this week is a close second.

Interistingly, the True Crime Version has "down the winding road", so is closer to the original.

Edited October 31 by PurpleTentacle

[thuganomics85]

The montage of Agatha killing covens throughout different decades was some great stuff.  The idea that not only was the Witches Road a scam but she even used the ballad she sung with Nicholas/her son was insane.  Wasn't sure what was going to play out at first with the flashback since it went on for a bit, but it ended up landing with me.  I liked that it showed a more sympathetic side of Agatha; one who truly did love her son; but also showed that at the end of the day, she really is/was a self-centered witch who would kill with ease and never looked back.  Definitely one of the more nefarious leads out of the Disney+ series.

Billy actually creating the Witches Road itself was also a surprise.  It sounds like he wasn't even aware of it, so I don't know if I can fully blame him too much for the deaths of Alice, Lilia, and Mrs. Davis (remember her name, Agatha!)  But I can understand why he has guilt over it and it will likely haunt him for the rest of his time going forward.  Which currently looks like it will consist of him teaming up with Ghost Agatha to try and find Tommy.  Fun!

Glad Jen made it out at least and still has her powers.  Hope we see her again.

"The Ballad of the Witches Road" is definitely going to be sticking with me for a while.  A hell of a song right there!

I know most MCU shows shoot in the Atlanta area and I could definitely tell that in the flashback, because I'm pretty sure I've seen that lake in almost every series filmed around there.

Will think on it some more, but I think this show has a solid shot at being in my top tier list of the MCU shows: along the likes of Wandavision and the Loki seasons (granted, Secret Invasion really is the only MCU series that I think arguably goes into bad territory for me.)  It was just an enjoyable watch with characters that I grew to love, and unpredictable in ways that felt earned and not just cheap.  Kathryn Hahn was excellent as expected and continues to make Agatha a compelling character, and the rest of the gang; Joe Locke, Aubrey Plaza, Sasheer Zamata, Debra Jo Rupp, Ali Ahn, and especially Patti LuPone; more than deliver and picked up what she was putting down. 

Just another reason why I still love the MCU: even if can be in a slump or take a stumble elsewhere, it can still bring something unique and unexpected to the table.

[Sakura12]

It's interesting that Billy is more like Agatha, while Nicky was more like Wanda being a reluctant Magik user. 

If Wanda comes back I wonder how she'll feel that her son covened up with the ghost of Agatha. 

I saw someone mention that reason Agatha died kissing Rio is because she took some of her power so she could use to become a ghost. They had to have kissed in their relationships so taking her power is what killed her. 

I liked Death being offended when Agatha called her evil. She's just doing her job and we saw she can be gentle like she was with Nicky and Alice. Agatha kept trying to cheat her so she got mad. And Agatha manged to cheat her again by becoming a ghost. 

 

It's funny that we have two shows going on now showing us sympathetic villians with Agatha, Penguin and Sofia. 

[Keywestclubkid]

In her mind Agatha was killing witches before they could kill her ... it was a survival thing for her ... thats the whole point death was always around her

Edited October 31 by Keywestclubkid

[Keywestclubkid]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

 

I don't think so.

 

I mean you can infer that yes she did "I spoke no spell, I said no incantation" yet he appeared from "scratch" so unless she was having sex with some random dudes  it would have had to been "magic"

Edited October 31 by Keywestclubkid

[Keywestclubkid]

I wanna know know how she got her hands on the Darkhold now tho .. if she didn't trade her sons life for the book where did she run across it to have it

[QuantumMechanic]

9 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Am I to understand that Agatha created Nicky all on her own?

Just the opposite, I think.  She specifically said she "spoke no spell" and the like.  So I believe she "created" Nicky the old-fashioned way.  That he was "from scratch" precisely because she didn't use spells, etc. to conceive him.

[Jediknight]

I thought that Agatha never walked The Road, not that Agatha and Nick wrote the Ballad, and the Road was never real till Billy.  Nice twist there.

I did know that Agatha didn't trade Nick, her reaction earlier in the year when Billy went to drink the poison let that be known.  And I was a big fan of Agatha and Billy's relationship, she's trying to encourage him and guide him.  And he loves her as a mentor and mother figure.

The witches she was killing were sacrifices/presents to Rio to keep her son alive.  The first night they didn't kill witches, Rio came for him.

[Sakura12]

I think she kept on killing Witches to keep Rio from taking her. She fed her bodies and Rio accepted those terms and that was her special treatment. 

Rio has it bad for Agatha. She even asked why don't you want me when Agatha started the deliver me from evil spell. 

Edited October 31 by Sakura12

[Cattoy]

8 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Pretty sure it's meant like "she is the way foreward for witch kind". She is going to be a great leader. That was the imagery that was conveyed at that moment.

She was the High Priestess in Lilia's visions, so that's the vibe I got from it.

[Enigma X]

Episodes 8 and 9 of Agatha All Along were packed with incredible twists, and I absolutely loved them! The complexity of the storyline was gripping, and watching Billy begin to question his own actions added so much depth to his character. His powers are formidable, but realizing their darker consequences—especially in conjuring new life and impacting his fellow witches—forces him to confront the moral weight of his choices. This shift in Billy, where he's no longer blindly using his power but pondering its repercussions, makes his character even more intriguing.

Agatha’s duplicity was on full display, and I’m thrilled she stayed true to her cunning and calculated nature. Her relationship with her son, Nicholas, parallels Wanda’s love for Billy and Tommy in fascinating ways.  I suspected Billy created the road but did not see Agatha creating the road as a con. Well done!

Then there's Jen. Her fate is left hanging in an interesting way, especially since Agatha was behind her binding all along. Where does Jen go from here? She has a resilience that could lead her anywhere, yet she’s clearly vulnerable in Agatha’s twisted world. As for Death, the rules around her are still baffling. If she claims death as the "natural order," then why doesn’t she wait for people to die naturally? And while she’s supposedly only able to collect souls, she certainly seemed to be on the verge of ending Agatha herself! The boundaries around Death’s powers are still murky.

Overall, these two episodes delivered everything I love about the show: complex characters, moral ambiguity, and an incredible story that leaves me wanting more. I can’t wait to see how these elements develop in the MCU.

[Vikitty]

Oh, this was wonderful. A bittersweet ending tinged with hope. Agatha is, at her core, evil, but she is also a mother and her love for Nicky -- though twisted -- is something human beneath all that.

Loved the different versions of the ballad that we got to see her and Nicky giggling through as they created it.

The costumes on this show are exceptional.

 

[Sakura12]

55 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

As for Death, the rules around her are still baffling. If she claims death as the "natural order," then why doesn’t she wait for people to die naturally? And while she’s supposedly only able to collect souls, she certainly seemed to be on the verge of ending Agatha herself! The boundaries around Death’s powers are still murky.

I think Death can't kill anyone outright. She can cause mayham and wound until you beg to be taken. Then she can take you. 

I wonder if Billy will have to give another life to keep Tommy around. Death took Agatha in his place. 

People have been murdering each other since the beginning of time, it's not always natural. In the comics she can give life but she rarely does. She gave Nicky more time because she loves Agatha. But all roads eventually lead to her. 

They introduced Death's brother Eternity in Thor Love and Thunder. He's life. 

 

Edited October 31 by Sakura12

[Snapdragon]

2 hours ago, Jediknight said:

 

The witches she was killing were sacrifices/presents to Rio to keep her son alive.  The first night they didn't kill witches, Rio came for him.

I don't know.  I've seen this theory a few places but in WandaVision, Agatha kills her whole coven in 1693 and she doesn't have Nicky until 1750.  So she's been killing witches and absorbing their powers for at least fifty years at that point, so I don't think it had anything to do with keeping Nicky alive.  And it's not as if they'd be able to kill a coven of witches daily.  They probably did it once to a few times a year, because honestly, there couldn't have been that many witches just hanging around.  I think it was just to show that Agatha is power hungry and a killer and wasn't going to change for her son.  So while she loved him, it didn't inspire her to be a better person or anything.

[Orbert]

I agree.  They made a point of showing him coughing a bit for (maybe?) a few days before Rio came to get him.  As soon as he started coughing, I figured his time was running out.

[Bruinsfan]

16 hours ago, magdalene said:

Agatha killed a lot of innocent women through the centuries and certainly not for altruistic reasons.

I'm not so sure. Agatha revealed she can only drain powers/life if the other witch(es) blast her, and all the ones we saw in flashback seemed pretty damn quick to resort to violence after being insulted. Agatha's attitude toward witches was a result of trauma from her first experience with her mother's coven, but I don't think she was necessarily wrong about most of the ones she killed. Alice and Lilia are the only two we've seen that I feel confident about being benevolent. (Jennifer may lean in that direction, but she has some edge and the hundreds of people suing her over her products probably wouldn't see her that way.)

Edited October 31 by Bruinsfan

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'm not so sure. Agatha revealed she can only drain powers/life if the other witch(es) blast her, and all the ones we saw in flashback seemed pretty damn quick to resort to violence after being insulted.

That's true of the Witches' Road witches. But the years with Nick showed that she used him to bait witches into her home and then attacked them to steal their power.

It was unclear why she was doing that rather than simply living her life. I would have liked a better understanding of her motivation for collecting power even when not under any particular threat. 

Even with the Witches' Road witches, though certainly going DefCon1 based on relatively minor provocation, Agatha still set them up.  It may have been alarmingly easy to bait them. But they were baited. 

[TheOtherOne]

5 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I'm not so sure. Agatha revealed she can only drain powers/life if the other witch(es) blast her, and all the ones we saw in flashback seemed pretty damn quick to resort to violence after being insulted.

I actually wondered if that wasn't a lie she told Lilia just to get her to come (just like she was lying about the road in the first place). She was intending to kill Lilia/Jen/Alice all along, so it doesn't make sense that she would tell Lilia not to blast her and she would be fine if she needed Lilia to blast her for the plan to work? Or was she really counting on Lilia to lose it when provoked (which she seemed to be attempting when she demanded to know if there were any real witches there, before Teen burst in to interrupt)?

[Sakura12]

I wonder what would happen if they walked away instead of attacking her. Would she have let them go? I don't think she could, although some may have and that's why she's a known witch killer. 

[RachelKM]

33 minutes ago, TheOtherOne said:

I actually wondered if that wasn't a lie she told Lilia just to get her to come (just like she was lying about the road in the first place). She was intending to kill Lilia/Jen/Alice all along, so it doesn't make sense that she would tell Lilia not to blast her and she would be fine if she needed Lilia to blast her for the plan to work?

Agatha also said it to Rio in the first episode. And we never saw Agatha steal power that wasn't being used on her, so it appears to be true. (Otherwise, why not just snatch at least some of Billy's?) It is also true that Agatha could resort to forcing someone to use their power by physically attacking them.

That might be what she was doing when using Nick as bait to get witches to come to her, attacking them when they came in to shock them into using their magic on her in self-defense so that she could steal their power

[TheOtherOne]

52 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Agatha also said it to Rio in the first episode. 

I just checked a few transcripts of the first episode and don't see that?

Edited October 31 by TheOtherOne

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Even with the Witches' Road witches, though certainly going DefCon1 based on relatively minor provocation, Agatha still set them up.  It may have been alarmingly easy to bait them. But they were baited. 

Agatha loved her son.  She was also a horrible person who deliberately set up all of those coven witches.  You know the show has done a good job if fans are trying to excuse the protagonist's actions, especially when she snagged power for the sake of power.  I goaded you into attacking me, so it's really just self defense!  She's not that bad at all! 

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, TheOtherOne said:

I just checked a few transcripts of the first episode and don't see that?

I could swear it was referenced, even if not directly stated in the way it was later. But the remainder of my post stands. We didn't ever see her steal power that wasn't being used on her* and if she could, why wouldn't she?  Why bait a coven into acting out the charade with the Witches Road and then yell at them if she could just suck them dry without going to such lengths.  Just meet a witch or witches, corner one or two alone, drain them, and carry on your merry way. Agatha may be a sociopath, but she doesn't seem to be a sadist. She didn't seem the time to play with her food for amusement. I would actually think she might find it to be a colossal waste of energy.

*We didn't see much of her interactions when she was baiting witches into her home. But there was screaming and then power flares. So, Agatha could have attacked to goad them into self-defense and then stolen power.

[Sakura12]

I do think they have to use their powers on her for her to absorb them.  Otherwise why make a con. Just sneak up on witches and take their power. 

I don't think it was self defense she was counting on them attacking her. She wanted power thats all that mattered. The only heartbreaking thing was knowing her son could die at any moment.  

I wonder if Rio was visiting Nicky since he quickly went with her like he knew her. It was sweet that she told him to kiss Agatha goodbye first.

It also looked like Death was mourning Agatha. Her outfit changed when she was burying her and making the flowers grow.

Then Agatha ghosted her. 

Edited October 31 by Sakura12

[Stardancer Supreme]

20 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

What I am questioning in regards to Jen is that Lilia told her she was the way forward (or something like that), but I don't recall her leading them through anything.  I mean, this show had a better ending than the majority of Marvel Disney+ shows, so I'm not bothered too much by it, but it is a bit of a plot hole.

Lilia called Jen "The Path Forward". Witches still exist in the Marvel comics world so it doesn't make sense to kill all of these witches in this coven. Alice was at the end of her life and so was Lilia; Jennifer Kale has a deeper purpose. She may well create a new coven in the MCU. 

[Phebemarie]

I think there was some symbolism  in Jen crawling out of the grave and walking towards the sunrise.  

[arc]

Gotta say, I wasn't expecting the twist that the Road was never real until Billy made it real. Wait, but then in what part of his subconscious did the grow-lights-morgue come from? Do the Kaplans run a grow-op?

I still feel like the aspect ratio changing throughout the series didn't feel nice and cleanly delineated as it was in Wandavision or She-Hulk. I guess I can fanwank that this ties into the somewhat slapdash nature of a pocket reality created without Teen's conscious design.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

16 hours ago, Enigma X said:

As for Death, the rules around her are still baffling. If she claims death as the "natural order," then why doesn’t she wait for people to die naturally?

She does, but before she could get William, Billy took him over.  Therefore, she's owed a soul. 

16 hours ago, Enigma X said:

And while she’s supposedly only able to collect souls, she certainly seemed to be on the verge of ending Agatha herself! The

If you remember, in Episode 1, when they were fighting,  Agatha actually said that Rio couldn't kill her, to which Rio replied that she could make her suffer. She hasn't attempted to kill anyone that we've seen.  Nicholas was supposed to either be stillborn, or die right after being born.  She was simply waiting for him to emerge.

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think Death can't kill anyone outright. She can cause mayham and wound until you beg to be taken. Then she can take you. 

That appears to be correct.

[Enigma X]

I still find the rules surrounding Death somewhat unclear. While "soul" and "body" are often used interchangeably, it appears that Death’s focus is on claiming the soul rather than the body, as she frequently leaves the body behind. It seems that when William died, Billy’s soul took over that body. This implies that Death would have already claimed William's soul at the time of his death.

As I think more about this, I can see how it could be argued that Death still needs Billy’s soul and Tommy’s. (Which seems like the piece up until now that I may have been missing in the conversations across the internet. I was only focused on William Kaplan's soul. Mea culpa!)  Since their souls were created by the Scarlet Witch, an interesting question arises about whether Death’s rules would apply differently to magically created souls.

Returning to the question of whether it’s Billy, William, or some fusion of both in that body, I think the evidence points to William having died. For instance, Billy contemplates, “Am I killing this boy so that my brother can live?” This line suggests that, ultimately, it’s the twins’ souls, not their bodies, that matter in their survival. This cements for me that Billy and Tommy are the only ones fully present in the bodies they inhabit. But can see others' arguments of having a different take on this.

[jacehan]

I dunno, I actually think Rio's comment implies that William is, in fact, still in there - she couldn't take William's soul because Billy rushed in and revived the body, and so it's some fusion of the two.

[Sakura12]

I understood it as Death reaps the souls and gives the bodies back to the Earth. So she needs both to keep the balance. She takes the souls, buries the body if it isn't done by someone else and takes them to afterlife.  

It looks like she'll take trades though. If you give her a body, she'll let you go. Or maybe she only does that for Agatha and Billy gets to live because Agatha gave her body for his. Death is still in love with her. 

Agatha told her stop following her and to leave her alone. Death is Agatha's clingy ex. Lol

 

[Mvnl]

Now I'm wondering which part of a person dies.

Like if only Williams soul was still alive, did Billie occupy a dead body? How could he make something live that William's soul couldn't?

[Sakura12]

26 minutes ago, Mvnl said:

Now I'm wondering which part of a person dies.

Like if only Williams soul was still alive, did Billie occupy a dead body? How could he make something live that William's soul couldn't?

Magik.

Billy was created with Magik so it makes sense he can put his soul in another body and do the same for his brother. 

I also think Rio kept saying bodies instead of souls because the souls are not hers, they move on. The bodies are hers since she is The Green Witch.

 

[baldryanr]

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

If you remember, in Episode 1, when they were fighting,  Agatha actually said that Rio couldn't kill her, to which Rio replied that she could make her suffer. She hasn't attempted to kill anyone that we've seen.  Nicholas was supposed to either be stillborn, or die right after being born.  She was simply waiting for him to emerge.

We've seen Rio be quite the jerk, but only in the context of dealing with Agatha.  She seems more neutral in general - it's not like she told Alice to prepare for an eternity of torture, just come along because it was time.

It does make me wonder how some our other deceased heroes reacted when she showed up (assuming she doesn't limit personal appearances to witches).  Did Tony openly wonder why Death was an attractive woman? 

Edited November 1 by baldryanr

[Sakura12]

Now I want to see a Marvel short where Death collects the fallen Avengers. I want to see how Nat, Gamora and Tony reacted to her. 

[tennisgurl]

Looks like it really was Agatha (and Billy) all along. I'm impressed, the show really got me on Billy being the one creating his own Hex, it makes a ton of sense but I didn't at all see it coming. I had an idea that maybe Agatha was lying about being on The Road, but not that she invented it all as a con and wrote the song with her cute little son! Well played show, you got me. 

So while Wanda's Hex was through a lens of the sitcoms that she watched as a kid, Billy's Hex is based around his interest in witchy stuff, you can see in his bedroom posters for witch movies, The Wizard of Oz, I am going to have to go back to see if I see any more references. I am confident that he really didn't know what he was doing, until now he hasn't had much control over his powers or even an understanding of who he was, it seems like it was all subconscious, although I am sure he will have a lot of guilt moving forward. It was sweet that he left a marker for Sharon, Lilia, and Alice, honestly if Agatha was just going to try and kill them, he did at least let Alice and Lilia deal with their issues before death, and Jen survived and got her powers back. And Sharon at least got a very eventful day. 

I respect that the show kept Agatha pretty evil all throughout, even if she's the main character. She's fun, she can be very likable, and we see a more sympathetic human side to her, but she's still a villain at the end of the day. Its a credit to the writing and to Katheryn Hahn's performance that I was able to feel so sad for Agatha when Nicky died while also being horrified watching her murder countless people for power just minutes before. She truly loves her son, really has feelings for Rio, and by the end of the show found some latent maternal feelings towards Billy, but at the end of the day she's still selfish and power hungry. I think that part of her reason for wanting so badly to extend her life is that she never wants to die and have to face her son after everything she's done, but even before she lost Nicky, she wanted power. 

Its interesting that when Death is Rio she's this creepy wild agent of chaos, while when she's "on duty" as Death she's quite a bit kinder and more dignified, she shows a lot more sympathy towards the dead than the living in general what what we've seen. Despite what Agatha might say, she really isn't evil, she's just doing a job that needs doing. 

Agatha couldn't keep Death (who's also her ex, which is still hilarious) at bay forever, but now she's a ghost who can also be Billy's spirit guide. If/when Wanda returns to find her sons, that's certainly going to be a hilarious reunion. 

I think that this show really stuck the landing, for me its one of the best things the MCU has done in ages, and I have really liked even the stuff that other people think are bad or mediocre (except for Secret Invasion, screw that show). I am sure that we will see Billy when they finally get around to Young Avengers, but I hope that this isn't the last we see of Agatha, Jen, or even Rio. The show did a great job going between spooky, funny, moving, and creative, its been a great journey down the road. 

[Sakura12]

Do we think Rio is Nicky's other parent? In the comics Death is a shapeshafter that chooses to present as a woman but can turn into a man.  Nicky seemed to know Rio. His my mother needs me at home could've been for Rio not Agatha. 

[Cattoy]

Deadline has a couple articles up about the show. In one, the showrunner explains that Agatha used the lure of the Witches' Road to kill other witches out of grief. (I'm not sure that was conveyed well.) It also said Nicky had a father, but who he was wasn't important to the story.

Death and dying are two different things. Dying is the act of your life playing out. Death isn't what kills you; it's the state after dying. The MCU hasn't really established much about their Death, but it's something of a literary convention that Death is what ushers you to whatever awaits you.

In the Vertigo/DC stories, Death visits everyone when they are born, so she is the first face they see. That way they recognize her as a friend when she comes for them, and they are comforted. Terry Pratchett's Death actually is very fond of humans, even if can't understand them. And his Death collects stray cats to live in his domain because he likes them.

[rwlevin]

7 hours ago, baldryanr said:

We've seen Rio be quite the jerk, but only in the context of dealing with Agatha.  She seems more neutral in general - it's not like she told Alice to prepare for an eternity of torture, just come along because it was time.

It does make me wonder how some our other deceased heroes reacted when she showed up (assuming she doesn't limit personal appearances to witches).  Did Tony openly wonder why Death was an attractive woman? 

Rio is I think the fourth variation of death we’ve seen in the MCU. We saw one version in Black Panther, one in Moon Knight and one in the last Thor movie. In Moon Knight, it was even explained how different people have different afterlives and trips to the after life. For all we know, Rio is specific to witches. So who knows who or what Tony may have seen?

Edited November 2 by rwlevin

[Jediknight]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It was sweet that he left a marker for Sharon, Lilia, and Alice, honestly if Agatha was just going to try and kill them, he did at least let Alice and Lilia deal with their issues before death, and Jen survived and got her powers back. And Sharon at least got a very eventful day.

Making the Road real didn't just allow Alice to deal with her issues, she destroyed the curse.  So if there are any more of her family out there, they don't have to worry about the curse.  She died protecting somebody as a protection witch, and protected any more members of her family from the curse.

Lilia was ashamed of having not been able to protect her coven, despite being told it wasn't her fault.  The Road allowed Lilia to protect her coven.

Agatha got another chance to be a mother with her mentoring of Billy, and to spare her "kid's" life and die in his place.

Wanda created the Hex in grief which enslaved the citizens of Westview, and she didn't want to give it up, she granted her own wish.  Billy created something that grants a wish to anybody that survives it, hell it grants a wish to people that die.  And the wishes aren't selfish like "I want to rule the world", it's a wish granted that lets the people deal with trauma.

Edited November 2 by Jediknight

[Sakura12]

Agatha told Lilia how she steals power, Jen is bound and Sharon has no power. So she would only be able to steal Alice's power if her con worked as planned.  So why did she choose those witches? To me it didn't seem like her heart was in this time until Billy made the road real. 

Now Jen and Billy are the only 2 to survive the Witch's Road. 

Edited November 2 by Sakura12

[Ottis]

On 10/31/2024 at 4:09 AM, thuganomics85 said:

The montage of Agatha killing covens throughout different decades was some great stuff.  The idea that not only was the Witches Road a scam but she even used the ballad she sung with Nicholas/her son was insane. 

I don't know why this was a big deal. I knew nothing about Agatha before WV, but I knew she stole power from witches and the witches died, and she did it for a long time. How she lured them in was a minor detail. She could have put a sign in a pile of bird seed, or left cheese. 

Now, WHY she did (and does it) is interesting. And this is where the series flopped for me. One answer is that Agatha is just evil, which, OK. But why was she created evil? Another could be she was mad about losing Nicholas, but she had been doing it before then. The fact she was grieving was unimportant, unless she ramped up her frequency into a mad frenzy or something. In which case this was an offshoot of WandaVision's message, which was one of the most disappointing series I have watched, 

13 hours ago, Cattoy said:

Death and dying are two different things. Dying is the act of your life playing out. Death isn't what kills you; it's the state after dying. The MCU hasn't really established much about their Death, but it's something of a literary convention that Death is what ushers you to whatever awaits you.

See, THIS is what I had hoped Agatha (and WandaVision) would be about. But for some reason they used death as a plot object and instead went off to indulge themselves in grief. Twice, now. Ugh.

 

[BaggythePanther]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Agatha told Lilia how she steals power, Jen is bound and Sharon has no power. So she would only be able to steal Alice's power if her con worked as planned.  So why did she choose those witches? To me it didn't seem like her heart was in this time until Billy made the road real. 

Now Jen and Billy are the only 2 to survive the Witch's Road. 

Agatha was desperate and Jen, Lilia and Alice were on the list Lilia provided. Then those three wouldn’t move forward without a green witch. So Agatha had to recruit the names on the list and grab Sharon to sell the con, even if it meant she could only drain one witch. 
 

Also, Agatha technically survived the Witch’s Road too. She didn’t die until after she got out.