S01.E07: The Wedding

[bluebonnet]

BANANAS??? The look on my face right now would make for a funny meme.

I don't want to give a link to an example because I'm at work and really don't want to have to discuss with my supervisor why I was looking up pictures of breasts but you can google some images.  They swoop down, like a banana.  

 

 I am not "body shaming" by noticing. Just because there are "norms" doesn't mean everybody fits them, but indeed, having your nipples that low at that age is not the norm (you can look it up if you think I'm just pulling this out of my butt; I did some research last year when my own started changing). clearly, the show is set up that we all say oooooh, beautiful... and I'm just like, meh.  Again: actors put their looks on display. It's fair game. Just because something is natural doesn't necessarily make it beautiful. Obviously, mileage varies. I have seen lots of natural breasts (I go to the gym, went to girls camp, etc. and so on), I don't work in Hollywood, I'm not too tainted by Modern Life to see that hers are Beautiful. To me, they just aren't. I'm entitled to that opinion. 

I don't disagree.  You are entitled to an opinion.  These are artists and their bodies are their instruments.  We can't help but critique something that is on display.  However, there's a difference between stating an opinion and using an opinion in order to mask what is very obviously body shaming.  There are lots of comments on here discussing the bodies of the two leads that aren't getting negative feedback simply because they aren't using shaming language.  There has been a lot of commentary on body hair - or rather lack of it.  A few weeks ago, Colum's butt was the topic of the day.  In several different threads, Sam's muscle gain has been discussed, with both negative and positive opinions being offered.  

 

If you don't like a pair of breasts, then you don't like them.  We all have different tastes and that's fine.  Claiming that a pair of breasts are abnormal simply because you don't like them is an example of body shaming.   And I'm going to follow another poster's example and just not respond to this anymore because it feels like it's turning particularly nasty.

[peacefrog]

Well I just watched again...when does Jamie take off his boots?!!! :)

Last you see them he is wearing them with his shirt, goes and sits on bed with Claire, Claire gets up, turns around and tells him to take off his shirt. She does her circle, she takes off her shift, then Jamie is lifting her up with No boots!

Edited September 23, 2014 by peacefrog

[nodorothyparker]

You see him start pulling at them when she's admitting to being hungover that morning and he asks her if she remembers anything at all about the wedding.  I didn't catch it my first or second time through either.

[lucindabelle]

I think most of the people here are women, who don't take it personally when someone comments on some facet of a man's body. In contrast, a few seem to be taking my comments about Claire's breasts personally, comparing them to their own, their own issues with breasts etc. That is not my intent and I can't help that.

 

Also, I stand by what I wrote that there are norms, of course there are, and that people don't always fit them doesn't mean they don't exist. Similarly, if her jaw was slack, that would be unusual for her age and my noticing it would not be "shaming."

 

Frankly, I'm kind of happy to see the droopy breasts, startled in fact, but they do seem droopy to me, compared to breasts I've seen in my life, and my own at that age. I'm entitled to that observation; droopy is an adjective, it's not shaming. Flowers droop. Etc. It's nice to see a variety of shapes onscreen. But I really felt manipulated to ooh and aah over them and I hate that. The whole show seems to be pushing me in the direction of Reverence for Claire and Jamie and I resent it.

 

I found the cats adorable, not disgusting, as you did, so we obviously appreciate different things about the show.  I'm a cat owner who sometimes lets cats eat off the table. There. I've said it. I'm prepared to be shamed.

[CatMack]

 I am not "body shaming" by noticing. Just because there are "norms" doesn't mean everybody fits them, but indeed, having your nipples that low at that age is not the norm (you can look it up if you think I'm just pulling this out of my butt; I did some research last year when my own started changing). clearly, the show is set up that we all say oooooh, beautiful... and I'm just like, meh.  Again: actors put their looks on display. It's fair game. Just because something is natural doesn't necessarily make it beautiful. Obviously, mileage varies. I have seen lots of natural breasts (I go to the gym, went to girls camp, etc. and so on), I don't work in Hollywood, I'm not too tainted by Modern Life to see that hers are Beautiful. To me, they just aren't. I'm entitled to that opinion. 

 

You phrased your initial observation in the form of a question.  We answered that question.  I'm sorry we don't agree with you, but nobody was really attacking you.  You're entitled to your opinion.  We're entitled to disagree.  It's not a personal attack against you.

Edited September 23, 2014 by CatMack

[mybabyaidan]

I may (or may not have) watched the episode again....But I forgot another moment that made me laugh:

 

When Jamie is reciting his name to Claire for the first time, Dougal's FACE in the background slays me.  He is thinking to himself, "Damn it, the lad has like 18 names, we don't have TIME FOR THIS"   I may not be keen on Dougal, but Graham is fantastic.

 

I also forgot to point out how much I liked Willie.  His annoyance at the priest sneezing on him made me laugh as well.

[Athena]

Hopefully, the corset has been loosened on this topic. You can say your opinion and if you disagree, respectfully move on. I'd also like to remind posters that there is an Ignore feature if you ever want it. Thank you!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Someone posted a link to the Jamie appreciation tumblr in the Jamie thread and you can see in some of those pictures (from pre-Wedding episodes) that he does have some visible body hair. I am not sure if it was less obvious in this ep due to the lighting or if the show decided it would be better not to have any for sexy times. Feel free to rewatch the episode for research purposes!

[Sasha]

I think Claire is beautiful and I like her droopy boobs. I was hoping to see if Jamie's curtains matched the drapes so to speak but too much manscaping. Maybe next week?

[Rekilt]

Someone posted a link to the Jamie appreciation tumblr in the Jamie thread and you can see in some of those pictures (from pre-Wedding episodes) that he does have some visible body hair. I am not sure if it was less obvious in this ep due to the lighting or if the show decided it would be better not to have any for sexy times. Feel free to rewatch the episode for research purposes!

It's moments like this that makes me wish we had a zoom in button on the tv remote. Purely for research purposes of course.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

This is about data collection. We need to be able to see these things in great detail. For research.

Watching procedurals on tv taught me that you should be able to say "enhance" and "zoom" to get a perfectly clear still from a video!

Edited September 23, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[annlaw78]

 

I am not sure if it was less obvious in this ep due to the lighting or if the show decided it would be better not to have any for sexy times.

Maybe the actor groomed, out of courtesy to Balfe, who was going to be licking/biting his torso for the better part of a week's filming!

 

 

I was hoping to see if Jamie's curtains matched the drapes so to speak but too much manscaping. Maybe next week?

I think it was in the Vulture article posted, above, that Moore indicated that full-frontal wasn't off the table. He just thought it wasn't necessary for the wedding night. For those who are so interested.

Edited September 23, 2014 by annlaw78

[vesperholly]

So it sounds like Randall knows who Claire married (Colum's nephew), so how come the Mackenzie's aren't in trouble for harboring a fugitive? Why isn't Randall demanding Dougal hand over the bridegroom? I'm confused...

Randall doesn't know that Jamie Fraser is in the protection of the Mackenzies, nor does he (probably?) know that Colum's nephew = Jamie Fraser = the dude he whipped. Jamie has laid low when redcoats appear and is going by an assumed name — hence the "I don't even know your name!" bit at the wedding. Though none of those points are made very clear by the show.

[Nidratime]

I was hoping to see if Jamie's curtains matched the drapes so to speak but too much manscaping. Maybe next week?

 

 

Well, even though he looks like a natural redhead, I believe Sam Heughan is a blonde or blondish and they've dyed his hair reddish. So, no the carpet probably doesn't match the drapes. ;-)

Edited September 24, 2014 by Nidratime

[annlaw78]

 

Randall doesn't know that Jamie Fraser is in the protection of the Mackenzies, nor does he (probably?) know that Colum's nephew = Jamie Fraser = the dude he whipped. Jamie has laid low when redcoats appear and is going by an assumed name — hence the "I don't even know your name!" bit at the wedding. Though none of those points are made very clear by the show.

This all hinges on Randall's not asking the very basic question of: who did this Englishwoman I'm obsessed with marry?  What is the name of this nephew?  I want to see the contract (which bears Jamie's real name).  Ned admitted this whole scheme was "made of paper," presumably because Randall would demand/have a right to see the paper.  The idea that Randall doesn't know Jamie's name is silly and, regardless, there are records regarding the charges against Jamie that are going to bear his name.  Again, the idea that Randall has never read them strains credulity.  None of this makes any sense!

[Firebunny]

Someone posted a link to the Jamie appreciation tumblr in the Jamie thread and you can see in some of those pictures (from pre-Wedding episodes) that he does have some visible body hair. I am not sure if it was less obvious in this ep due to the lighting or if the show decided it would be better not to have any for sexy times. Feel free to rewatch the episode for research purposes!

My head canon is there were more wedding demands that Jamie didn't mention to Claire and obviously he made Dougal wax him.  As revenge Dougal propositioned Claire ("You made me wax your butt, I'm gonna eff your wife.")

 

I don't mind some manscaping, because sometimes hair can obstruct the view of all those nice muscles.  But I do like me a happy trail and was disappointed Jamie didn't have one.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I will never forget the episode of MTV's True Life where this wannabe bodybuilder called his dad into the bathroom to shave his back and butt the night before a competition. I am now picturing Dougal and Jamie standing in a Jersey bathroom doing the same thing.

The other issue with the idea that marrying Jamie saves Claire is that Randall should not only ask to see the paperwork but wouldn't he want to talk to this husband in person as well to make sure that they didn't just forge some paperwork to create an imaginary Scottish husband for her? Once he sees that her husband is the same guy he flogged like crazy, he is just going to want to arrest both of them instead of one of them.

[vesperholly]

Well, they didn't read banns, so it's not like Randall knows yet that one James AMM Fraser, whipping boy, has married Claire. The paperwork was done that day — did they really send a rider to give the Scottish middle finger to Randall immediately?

 

The situation escalates in the books before the question even comes up, so hole closed.

Edited September 24, 2014 by vesperholly

[nara]

Well, they didn't read banns, so it's not like Randall knows yet that one James AMM Fraser, whipping boy, has married Claire. The paperwork was done that day — did they really send a rider to give the Scottish middle finger to Randall immediately?

 

The situation escalates in the books before the question even comes up, so hole closed.

When Dougal propositioned Claire, he said he'd just come back from visiting BJR.  He gave him the finger in person.

[absnow54]

I just can't imagine after last week's episode, Dougal going up to Randall and saying "Show's over, she's married now," without him going "to whom?" Like 95% of Claire's cover stories have been burst by Randall simply asking for a name. Dougal plays a far better game than Claire though, so I can hand wave that he talked his way out of it without revealing the name of the bridegroom or showing any papers, but that the arrangement will blow up in their faces eventually. If anyone can throw down in an epic bull shit match against Randall and come out with their secrets still intact, it's Dougal. Claire legally marrying Jamie was more for the Clan's benefit, I think. You want our protection, prove it, you're one of us now. (And you know, all the political gains Dougal gets from marrying off Jamie to a Sassenach. But that's not a point that Dougal would be broadcasting.) I think I've finally come to terms with the plot point.

[Keeta]

I may (or may not have) watched the episode again....But I forgot another moment that made me laugh:

 

When Jamie is reciting his name to Claire for the first time, Dougal's FACE in the background slays me.  He is thinking to himself, "Damn it, the lad has like 18 names, we don't have TIME FOR THIS"   I may not be keen on Dougal, but Graham is fantastic.

 

I also forgot to point out how much I liked Willie.  His annoyance at the priest sneezing on him made me laugh as well.

 

This is one aspect of the show that makes it really special (and rewatchable). All the subtle expressions and actions by the characters in the background really help to bring it to the next level. Yet more proof that all the actors are bringing it, on the regular.

 

P.S. Athena what is this Ignore feature you speak of? 

[Athena]

P.S. Athena what is this Ignore feature you speak of? 

 

Sometimes when you disagree with another poster but they aren't being a jerk that you can report them to the Mods, you can put them on your ignore list. Click "Manage Ignore Prefs" under the person icon beside "MyShows" or go to "My Settings" > "Ignore Preferences". Add the poster's name, check off "Posts", and you won't be able to see their posts anymore. Hope this helps! 

[Keeta]

It does, thank you!

[WatchrTina]

I think all the wondering about the conversation between BJR and Dougal is legitimate but there is one more thing we haven't touched on. Dougal likely didn't go Ft. Williams alone. Rupert has just come from checking the horses when Dougal punches him. It's likely that Dougal took Angus and Rupert and a few other fighting men with him to Ft. Williams. He could easily say "The woman's married one of my nephews. I've a half dozen men here with me who witnessed the wedding and the bedding. If called upon I can produce a marriage contract, drawn up by my personal lawyer, as well as the priest who performed the ceremony, but you're not going to insult the war-chief of the MacKenzie clan by calling me a liar are ye?" I'm going to assume BRJ will be able to read Dougal well enough to know he's telling the truth, so that nit-picking the details isn't worth the effort. Also, it won't only be up to BJR -- a higher ranking officer may be there and he may be even less willing to insult Dougal to his face by demanding to see the bona fides. Especially when the woman in question is not actually suspected of any particular crime.

ETA: The other thing is that the officers at Ft. Williams have to know what BJR is. And Dougal probably wasn't the only one who heard BJR yell "Kick her!" Certainly many people saw what Claire looked like when she came out of that room. So the other officers at Ft. Williams may be very happy that they've been given a face-saving way to let the matter drop and a way to call BJR off the hunt. They may also be much less interested in ever seeing their "English Rose" again, now that she's been despoiled by a local "savage."

Edited September 25, 2014 by WatchrTina

[peacefrog]

I have to say I loved the idea of the visual of Dougal just riding up and giving BJR the finger. I'll use that the one!

[taanja]

I must say you have all given much more thought to this whole forced/arranged marriage between Jamie and Claire. Me? I just go with the flow.

If the show says : this is this and that is that ---I don't even think to question!

 

This is one aspect of the show that makes it really special (and rewatchable).

 

 I am really appreciating some of the actors facial expressions and subtle acting choices! I agree. It makes it re-watchable for sure!

[MaryMitch]

I think all the wondering about the conversation between BJR and Dougal is legitimate but there is one more thing we haven't touched on.  Dougal likely didn't go Ft. Williams alone.  Rupert has just come from checking the horses when Dougal punches him.  It's likely that Dougal took Angus and Rupert and a few other fighting me with him to Ft. Williams.  He could easily say "The woman's married one of my nephews.  I've a half dozen men here with me who witnessed the wedding and the bedding.  If called upon I can produce a marriage contract, drawn up by my personal lawyer, as well as the priest who performed the ceremony, but you'r not going to insult the war-chief of the MacKenzie clan by calling me a liar are ye?"  I'm going to assume BRJ will be able to read Dougal well enough to know he's telling the truth, so that nit-picking the details isn't worth the effort.  Also, it won't only be up to BJR -- a higher ranking officer may be there and he may be even less willing to insult Dougal to his face by demanding to see the bona fides.  Especially when the woman in question is not actually suspected of any particular crime.  

 

ETA:  The other thing is that the officers at Ft. Williams have to know what BJR is.  And Dougal probably wasn't the only one who heard BJR yell "Kick her!"  Certainly many people saw what Claire looked like when she came out of that room.  So the other officers at Ft. Williams may be very happy that they've been given a face-saving way to let the matter drop and a way to call BJR off the hunt.  They may also be much less interested in ever seeing their "English Rose" again, now that she's been despoiled by a local "savage."

I like this; it explains a lot.  I wish we'd get to see it.. maybe we will?

[VegetasMom]

When Dougal propositioned Claire, he said he'd just come back from visiting BJR.  He gave him the finger in person.

 

And I would have loved to have seen THAT conversation! 

[ihartcoffee]

I like this; it explains a lot. I wish we'd get to see it.. maybe we will?

They seem to like to show things out of order so anything is possible....

Edited September 25, 2014 by ihartcoffee

[nara]

I must say you have all given much more thought to this whole forced/arranged marriage between Jamie and Claire. Me? I just go with the flow.

If the show says : this is this and that is that ---I don't even think to question!

Then how do you pass the time between episodes? Overanalyzing the episodes is the only thing keeping me from going nuts!  ;)

[Nidratime]

Then how do you pass the time between episodes? Overanalyzing the episodes is the only thing keeping me from going nuts!  ;)

 

 

Uh oh. Are we going to have to commit you over the hiatus?

[nara]

Uh oh. Are we going to have to commit you over the hiatus?

 

Nah!  I'll pull out the crackpot theories, wear a theme Halloween costume, and dress in Claire-inspired clothes for the winter to get by!

[taanja]

HaHa!!! I see I am going to have to give into my full blown obsession and nit-pick every detail huh?

 

I do have a question and I hope this is the appropriate place....????

 

After Saturday's ep ---Outlander goes on some kind of hiatus? For how long? Will it resume where they left off? I mean they won't leave us hanging ? right?

 

Editing to say ---I mean they won't do some kind of time jump?

Edited September 25, 2014 by taanja

[peacefrog]

They have not announced when it is coming back yet, other than "early 2015" which can mean anything from January to April I guess. They just finished filming yesterday!

[Bort]

taanja, I answered you in the All Episodes Talk thread.

[Mei]

I thought you all might also enjoy the "blurtlander" recaps (I haven't seen any links to them so far)-- they're pretty racy and absolutely hilarious!

 

http://thats-normal.com/2014/09/things-husband-says-durng-outlander-wedding/

 

 

Peacefrog, I heard that we should expect an April return from hiatus.

 

 

ETA: Actually, I think I found last week's blurtlander funnier, but YMMV.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mei

[magdalene]

I think most of the people here are women, who don't take it personally when someone comments on some facet of a man's body. In contrast, a few seem to be taking my comments about Claire's breasts personally, comparing them to their own, their own issues with breasts etc. That is not my intent and I can't help that.

 

Also, I stand by what I wrote that there are norms, of course there are, and that people don't always fit them doesn't mean they don't exist. Similarly, if her jaw was slack, that would be unusual for her age and my noticing it would not be "shaming."

 

Frankly, I'm kind of happy to see the droopy breasts, startled in fact, but they do seem droopy to me, compared to breasts I've seen in my life, and my own at that age. I'm entitled to that observation; droopy is an adjective, it's not shaming. Flowers droop. Etc. It's nice to see a variety of shapes onscreen. But I really felt manipulated to ooh and aah over them and I hate that. The whole show seems to be pushing me in the direction of Reverence for Claire and Jamie and I resent it.

 

I found the cats adorable, not disgusting, as you did, so we obviously appreciate different things about the show.  I'm a cat owner who sometimes lets cats eat off the table. There. I've said it. I'm prepared to be shamed.

I think it's very sad to what extent in our culture womens bodies get shamed and criticized. If a beautiful woman and ex-model like Caitriona Balfe gets called out for having "droopy" breasts the average woman must surely despair looking at herself naked in the mirror. 

 

The only thoughts I have regarding Balfe's breasts  are how courageous of her to expose herself with such honesty in such intimate and raw scenes, and good on her for not mutilating her body with breast implants.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I wish more actresses would leave their breasts natural!

One thing I loved about this episode is that you got to see how you can take natural average sized breasts and make them look like they're popping out when you use a corset. I feel bad for some female celebrities who are accused of having boob jobs when it's possible that some of them just have really good bras (side note: I learned from a photo shoot that if you wear two padded push up bras at the same time, even the smallest boobs can look pretty impressive!).

Edited September 26, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[lucindabelle]

Oh I would call out a man just the same. Again: actors put themselves on display.Always found Brad Pitt pudgy looking.

You write that she is an "ex model" so you're inherently buying into a culture of looks ism, in which fashion models determine what is pretty.... and using societal approval as an arbiter for what is beautiful.

I know many average women whose breasts are less droopy than hers, and I don't actually find average women less attractive than models (many models are weird looking in real life). Obviously mileage varies, but color me unimpressed that she once made money out of being tall and photographing well. I don't find her ugly, mind you, just it doesn't alter my opinion to have anyone tell me but she was a model!

Again, my remarks are not meant to be taken personally by you or any other women here,the leap from a critique of an actress who is putting her looks specifically on display in a specific scene in which we are supposed to find her beautiful, to "average women must feel"- kind of makes my point.

Athena asked us to move on, so I will.

[ToniG]

Sometimes when you disagree with another poster but they aren't being a jerk that you can report them to the Mods, you can put them on your ignore list. Click "Manage Ignore Prefs" under the person icon beside "MyShows" or go to "My Settings" > "Ignore Preferences". Add the poster's name, check off "Posts", and you won't be able to see their posts anymore. Hope this helps!

I had no idea-thank you!

[kryss]

I haven't weighed into the breast debate yet but just took another look at the 'droopy' breasts - small, yes; droopy, NO!  I have to wonder if the person describing them as 'droopy' is either very young or incredibly genetically blessed.  Either way, enjoy ;) .  I often examine women's breasts (women's health) so have the perspective of just how broad the range of normal can be.  Caitriona is very much on the perky side, no doubt whatsoever.

[SoWindsor]

I think she and her breasts are quite sexy.

[Tif]

I'm watching this AGAIN and I'm telling you the facial expressions from these actors are flipping fantastic. Rupert and Angus say more with their faces and hands than words. I laugh out loud every time I watch them arranging for the ring.

Willie and Dougal with the priest.

Yes, I'm a fan of the nekkid times but there's so much more in this episode.

[taanja]

 

I'm watching this AGAIN

Yup. me too. I watched again last night --- both eps that aired back to back. So much better that way I must say!

 

I too love everyone's facial expressions and all the little side stuff going on besides the sex. It still makes me laugh when Claire admits to drinking all day and having a massive hangover during the ceremony. I mean ---I kind of Love Claire for that! Never change girl!

 

The other scene I find intensely fascinating is that final scene of Claire and Dougal in the (kitchen?) and he makes his desire for her known. He says she is the most singular woman he's ever met -- Ha! What the hell does that even mean? But the look on his face after Claire says very simply that she is married to Jamie--- is just ---- powerful. It is like in that moment he sees that she is even more "special" than even he originally suspected. I think when he punches Rupert in the face for his crude remark it is a combination of jealousy and the realization/ regret that he let such a prize slip through his fingers.

 

So it leads me to speculate that he must indeed be married. Because that whole little scene tells me as a viewer that Dougal desires Claire but for whatever reason was unable himself to marry her. And he does not strike me as the kind of man that would give the object of his desire to someone else---especially his nephew Jamie.

[Nidratime]

singular [sing-gyuh-ler]

adjective

 

1. extraordinary; remarkable; exceptional: a singular success.
2. unusual or strange; odd; different: singular behavior.
3. being the only one of its kind; distinctive; unique: a singular example.
4. separate; individual.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/singular

[Athena]

The other scene I find intensely fascinating is that final scene of Claire and Dougal in the (kitchen?) and he makes his desire for her known. He says she is the most singular woman he's ever met -- Ha! What the hell does that even mean? 

 

Objectively, Dougal is skeevy and a bit creepy, but Graham McTavish is doing so well in this role. I love to hate him really. From his point of view, she is singular and extraordinary. He knows she's escaped confrontation with BJR twice now. She has seen men die in a violent way and he knows she is clever. As a time traveler, she is a unique person and displays characteristics he does not see in women of his time.  

[taanja]

 

Objectively, Dougal is skeevy and a bit creepy

 

In the same way that ---objectively -- someone like Angus is skeevy and creepy.

 

The character Dougal is fascinating to me. And I seem to be developing a crush on the actor who  pays him. So objectively --- there could be a scene where he is eating puppies and killing kittens and I would be all ---Ahhh! Isn't he amazing with his murdering ways!  ;-)

[BizBuzz]

Late to the party ... had to wait till I got back from vacation to watch this episode. 

 

I am not a prude, but I have never been fond of watching other people have sex, so normally, I turn my head when things start to get heated up to that point (now, I don't mind watching the foreplay!) ... but this was some of the most beautiful filming I have ever seen.

 

What struck me as extraordinary is that there was NO MUSIC playing, all you could hear during the first sex scene where the sounds of the night.  I felt like I was holding my breath, watching something I wasn't supposed to watch, something so intimate that was not my place, but being privy to a lesson in how it is supposed to be done.  I know that sounds weird, but that was in my head.

 

Jamie was incredibly hot BEFORE the wedding, did not think he cleaned up all that nicely.  ::giggle::  Give me Jamie rugged, and I am ok.  Dougal, get a grip.  If Claire's eyes were daggers, Dougal would be dead.  Loving the actor still, but the character is a bit swarmy.  Ugh. 

 

I felt the getting to know each other was very well played, I enjoyed that immensely. 

 

Claire drinks too much.  But so would I if I found myself in her world.  And it's Scotch Whiskey after all.  And some people tell me that is smooth although I haven't had it. 

 

I was actually a little concerned about watching this, thinking it would be too much, but it was just right.  Just perfect.  Rewatch coming tonight.  LOL

[paramitch]

I enjoyed this episode, and appreciated the ways the sex scenes were handled, with the palpable idea that these two people are discovering each other, that there is not one trite, tired, male-oriented way to handle that fact. While I adore "Game of Thrones," as others have commented, those sex scenes are all too often stripped and almost harsh, prurient, and of course are blatantly all about the male, versus the female gaze. Yet these scenes felt like great theatre, and that's a compliment to the show's creative team and the actors. I was riveted not because it was sex, but because I was watching two people given a certain time and space in which to discover each other and was fascinated.

 

lucindabelle: Just me, or are Katrina's breasts a little droopy for a young woman? When she is 40 those things are going to sag big time.

 

My answer to your first question is simple: "No." I cannot imagine a lovelier woman's body than Caitriona, who is incredibly beautiful by my judgment -- if that's "droopy" and substandard, then good luck to the rest of us. MMV, but the idea that Caitriona is being criticized for "drooping" breasts is just mind-boggling to me. No wonder women flock to plastic surgery to try to meet impossible ideals if these are the standards they are asked to meet by viewers.

 

Taanja: I am still on Team Frank --what can I say? The show hasn't convinced me yet to feel otherwise.

THANK YOU. Beautiful posts -- thanks for joining a lonely table! Because I'm just not sitting here sighing and swooning over Jamie. I'm just not. And honestly if there is a relationship on this show I'm invested in, it's in Claire and Frank. Two months ago, she was on her honeymoon with a good, gentle man that she was deeply in love with, and who loved her so much that he flat-out told her, "Nothing you could do could ever affect my love for you." And I believed him.

 

So I just can't jump over all Team Jamie here. And to be fair, I think the show is doing a far, far better job than the book in remembering that fact -- and in keeping it foremost for us in Claire's mind.

 

For those wondering why Claire drank heavily all day -- or why Claire didn't "smile more for Jamie" on her wedding day -- or why Claire looked sad or conflicted despite poor Jamie's sweetness, I just do not understand this at all. I'm totally befuddled.

 

If we're taking "Outlander" as a real story with richness and complexity, then Jamie is not the waiting-in-the-wings Ken Doll Claire has always secretly wanted. Instead, he's a cute and admittedly charming boy who's crushing on her while she's trying to get back to her real life, her real husband, her real family. I thought her wedding with Frank was not a sign of Frank's unworthiness but that they'd waited years (through an entire war) and he simply couldn't wait one moment more to marry her. I also loved that the only approval he wanted was hers, that his family didn't matter. I just didn't see it as a portrait of a 'lesser' wedding. No matter how Jamie dressed it up -- and he definitely tried to do so -- he was trying to sugarcoat a forced marriage. I thought the disparity was startling and deliberate -- between Claire's radiant happiness in the impromptu wedding with Frank, in comparison with her rigid control and palpable unhappiness during the formal, forced marriage to Jamie. (She looked, understandably, like she was going through the motions in a nightmare.)

 

I get that Jamie's hot and cute and brave and blameless and increasingly smarter and more complex than he seems (all wonderful things), but Claire is being coerced into marriage and sexual congress in a 24-hour period with a guy she barely knows, purely to save herself from terrible torture, imprisonment and possibly death. And just to repeat: Two months ago she was on her freaking honeymoon.

 

So I'm fine with Claire not being Mary Sunshine on her wedding day. I savored every moment in which she looked conflicted -- it was appropriate. If I am to continue to take this story seriously at all, then I'm very happy for those little moments. Because otherwise, why have Claire be married at all storywise? (And FWIW, I was not a fan of the book or of Book Frank, who was barely paper-thin -- the show and Tobias Menzies have made him so much richer and sweeter and more interesting).

 

I was disappointed in the ham-handed Dougal scene in which he propositioned Claire directly from her newfound husband's bed, and while the actor who plays him is fantastic, I'm really divided on how the show's choosing to interpret the character. I felt that scene was completely unnecessary.

 

Anyway. I thought it was a great episode overall, and I enjoy both Jamie's beauty and sweetness as well as the disparity between his feelings and Claire's. I loved the sophistication of the wedding night progression and how the intimacy and sex changed between them with the passage of time and secrets. And I like that the show never forgets the two viewpoints -- Jamie may feel like he's just lucked into the best thing ever, marrying the beautiful woman he's sweet on, but Claire is in a different place entirely.

 

No matter how beautiful Jamie is, no wonder it took her a few bottles of liquor to get through it all. I loved this episode even while feeling incredibly sorry for Claire throughout.

Edited December 14, 2014 by paramitch

[Nidratime]

I thought her wedding with Frank was not a sign of Frank's unworthiness but that they'd waited years (through an entire war) and he simply couldn't wait one moment more to marry her.

 

 

To clarify, though, Frank and Claire were married before the war. I don't know how long before the war they were married -- whether they were together for less than a year or more -- but they were separated through the war as a married couple. So, that scene of them getting married happened years before their second honeymoon, which is where they were when the show begins. Plus, there's another issue that highlights some length to their marriage, but the show hasn't brought it up, so I'll put it in spoiler tags.

 

In the book there was some discussion of adoption and the possibility that they couldn't have children. Surely, they had to have tried for more than a honeymoon for them to come to that conclusion, unless they went into the marriage knowing that one of them couldn't reproduce.