S24.E04 The Meaning of Life

[Xeliou66]

Episode description-

When a bomb goes off in a brownstone, Shaw and Riley must determine which of its inhabitants - an author or fertility doctor - was the target; Price and Maroun try to bring murder charges against the suspect, even though the victim is still alive. 

[Spartan Girl]

Wow, a whole episode where I didn’t hate Maroun. It’s a miracle.

[Raja]

Was it supposed to be a big twist that the defense would have an expert to say the victim can come back to life? The entire gallery gasp because of the expert and the prosecutors show full panic mode.

I don't know if I would have did the Nolan epilog with his dad and would have preferred the old school opening without the bomb blast.

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Wow, a whole episode where I didn’t hate Maroun. It’s a miracle.

I don't know.  She had a guy pull the plug on his wife solely to save the case from her screw up. 

 

36 minutes ago, Raja said:

Was it supposed to be a big twist that the defense would have an expert to say the victim can come back to life?

It was so weird.  It felt like the way to go with the guy was to point out that he never examined this woman, never reviewed her records, and that just because some other person "woke up" from brain death, that's meaningless in terms of this woman.  Instead, Nolan set the guy up for a theological debate and let him drone on with an emotion laden hypothetical.

Edited October 25 by txhorns79

[Xeliou66]

Interesting concept and premise but it was kind of bogged down by personal crap - I wish they would ditch the personal stuff, original L&O is best when it’s very minimal, and Price’s judgment being compromised because of his dad’s condition as revealed at the end was just too melodramatic. And once again we have Maroun behaving like more of an activist than an ADA - shades of St Olivia Benson there, and I don’t like it even if she made valid points. I was glad the husband decided to have his wife taken off of life support, it’s what she wanted and what I imagine most people would want - I for one certainly wouldn’t want to linger in that condition. And then the whole idea that Price/Maroun were shocked that the defense brought in an expert to testify to their theory was weird, what the hell did they expect? Baxter’s scenes were once again the highlight of the legal side, the rest was too filled with Price/Maroun melodrama. 

And the revelation about Riley’s wife having a miscarriage was weird and tacked on, again it felt too melodramatic, and there’s a big difference between having a miscarriage and the IVF/embryo stuff so it was weird. On the positive side at least they didn’t have anyone be an obnoxious prick or make anti abortion arguments the way Greevey did in Life Choice or Bernard did in the season 20 episode about abortion, and Riley’s knowledge of religion helping the case worked okay even if this was the first mention of him having a religious upbringing, I was worried they would have Riley sympathize with the perp like Greevey did in Life Choice and I was relieved they didn’t go there - I take it Riley is sort of a lapsed Catholic like several other characters on the franchise. 

The detective side flows much better than the legal side still, maybe because I like Shaw/Riley much better than Price/Maroun and maybe because it’s just better written and more compelling. It was obvious the girl’s boyfriend would be the perp the minute they lingered on his picture. I liked the investigation and I really liked seeing them go to the forensics lab. The LT didn’t annoy me this time but she didn’t have much of a role.

This episode could’ve been much better if they hadn’t infused personal melodrama and if the legal side had been more compelling somehow - I found myself zoning out at times during the legal portion because it just felt boring.

I still greatly enjoy L&O but they are infusing way too much personal melodrama into this season - episode 1 had Maroun’s melodrama, episode 3 had Riley’s loser brother, and this episode had the stuff I referenced above. I wish they would cut this out and get back to focusing almost exclusively on the cases - L&O is feeling too much like SVU at times now with the personal crap. 

[buckboard]

Also, the prosecution had no knowledge of the Lazarus witness, who  just popped up all of a sudden?  Wouldn't they have had plenty of time to bring in their own experts to dispute that testimony?

[Andyourlittledog2]

56 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

She had a guy pull the plug on his wife solely to save the case from her screw up. 

Yeah, she was practically twisting his arm, psychologically. I don't like when either side of an issue like this intrudes on the actual family going through the thing.

I wish they'd get rid of Maroun or pair her up with assertive ADAs that really push back at her activist/melodramatic tendencies.  She annoys me no end.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  She had a guy pull the plug on his wife solely to save the case from her screw up.

She left him alone until she discovered the wife had a DNR.  She advocated for the victim. Yes, it helped the case but I don't think it's the only reason she did it.  Nor was it her screw up.  She made the case to Baxter and Price and Baxter made the (right) call. 

1 hour ago, buckboard said:

Also, the prosecution had no knowledge of the Lazarus witness, who  just popped up all of a sudden?  Wouldn't they have had plenty of time to bring in their own experts to dispute that testimony?

This was the worst part of the episode and made Price look incompetent.  Once the guy appeared on the witness list, the defense's angle would have been apparent and the prosecution should have been ready to counter it. 

But other than that, I actually liked this episode a lot because of the legal questions it introduced (when is death?) and because it didn't turn into a disasterfire of needing the cops to have a moral stance.  Even Riley's sharing of his miscarriage didn't bother me because it did highlight how the same thing can mean different things in different contexts.  Riley and his wife were likely grieving a 'could have been' more than just the actual cells but I found it to be appropriate. 

I am a little annoyed that he's another Catholic boy.  L&O just loves their one Catholic detective. 

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Yeah, she was practically twisting his arm, psychologically. I don't like when either side of an issue like this intrudes on the actual family going through the thing.

I wish they'd get rid of Maroun or pair her up with assertive ADAs that really push back at her activist/melodramatic tendencies.  She annoys me no end.

That was bad, but at the same time, the victim’s living will explicitly said she didn’t want to be kept alive and there was no hope for recovery. I understand why the husband wanted her alive, and I felt terrible for him, but Maroun was right, there was no way for her to live and the killer was about to go free. So while I hate her, this didn’t piss me off as much as all the other shit she pulled.

[Madding crowd]

It wasn’t Maroun’s place to go to the hospital and try to force the husband into ending life support; that’s for the doctors and family members. In fact I think the defense would have something to say about an assistant DA putting pressure on the victim’s husband. Maroun should work for the defense or be a victim advocate-she is too emotional to be a prosecutor. 

[Ohiopirate02]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I am a little annoyed that he's another Catholic boy.  L&O just loves their one Catholic detective. 

I was annoyed that he knew the Bible verse. Catholic's approach the Bible differently than American Protestants and do not prioritize knowing chapter and verse. That particular Bible verse is well-cited in anti-choice circles, but not something taught in a typical religion class in a Catholic school.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

It wasn’t Maroun’s place to go to the hospital and try to force the husband into ending life support; that’s for the doctors and family members. In fact I think the defense would have something to say about an assistant DA putting pressure on the victim’s husband. Maroun should work for the defense or be a victim advocate-she is too emotional to be a prosecutor. 

Agreed. But at least she didn’t actually pull the plug herself—hi, Barba.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

And the revelation about Riley’s wife having a miscarriage was weird and tacked on, again it felt too melodramatic, and there’s a big difference between having a miscarriage and the IVF/embryo stuff so it was weird.

It's also not the same thing as deciding to have an abortion. I didn't like the implication that Riley and his wife mourning a miscarriage was unusual.

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The LT didn’t annoy me this time but she didn’t have much of a role.

I'm getting tired of her having some arcane bit of information that just happens to be pertinent to the current case, along with some winking reference to her "misspent youth" (my interpretation).

Another thing that annoyed me was Nolan bemoaning setting a precedent for what is death if someone is being kept alive only by mechanical measures and that opens the door for "angels of death" to pull the plug. Does it, though? It's not up to a random hospital employee to make that decision regardless of the condition of the patient. I sort of get what they were going for, but it wasn't persuasive to me at all.

There was a lot about this episode that made me scream in frustration.

[buttersister]

Quote

Maroun should work for the defense or be a victim advocate-she is too emotional to be a prosecutor. 

Baxter should pull an Arthur Branch and suggest she take her advocacy somewhere else.

[The Wild Sow]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The LT didn’t annoy me this time but she didn’t have much of a role.

I'm getting tired of her having some arcane bit of information that just happens to be pertinent to the current case, along with some winking reference to her "misspent youth" (my interpretation).

Yeah. Sorry, I've never been a fan of Maura Tierney, dating back to her ER days. She's just so one-note, in my opinion.

 

[blackwing]

I thought this was an interesting episode.  Asked a lot of good questions for which I'm not sure there is a correct answer.

I would still like Show to give us an explanation for the disappearance of Detective Violet Yee.  There are still supporting characters in every episode (bomb tech lady was featured in this one with the type of lines that Yee would have had) so what happened to her?  What happened to the actress?  Was she fired for budget reasons?  Did she get another gig?  Where is Yee?

18 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Wow, a whole episode where I didn’t hate Maroun. It’s a miracle.

14 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Yeah, she was practically twisting his arm, psychologically. I don't like when either side of an issue like this intrudes on the actual family going through the thing.

I wish they'd get rid of Maroun or pair her up with assertive ADAs that really push back at her activist/melodramatic tendencies.  She annoys me no end.

7 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

It wasn’t Maroun’s place to go to the hospital and try to force the husband into ending life support; that’s for the doctors and family members. In fact I think the defense would have something to say about an assistant DA putting pressure on the victim’s husband. Maroun should work for the defense or be a victim advocate-she is too emotional to be a prosecutor. 

2 hours ago, buttersister said:

Baxter should pull an Arthur Branch and suggest she take her advocacy somewhere else.

I loathe Maroun and as soon as she started in with that whiny flinty assertive voice in the opening moments of her appearance, I knew we were going to be in for yet another week of Activist Sam.  The past two episodes where she was backburnered were so uplifting.  Then she was back.  Ugh.

She was correct of course.  The patient had a DNR in her living will.  But the way she went about it was wrong.  She didn't care at all about the patient or her living will.  She only used it as a way to win the case.

Shouldn't the doctors have asked about a living will as soon as the patient was in that condition?  The husband would have looked for it or called their estate planning lawyer.  The doctors and the family should have made this decision.  The husband shouldn't have been browbeaten into it by Maroun.

 

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Interesting concept and premise but it was kind of bogged down by personal crap - I wish they would ditch the personal stuff, original L&O is best when it’s very minimal, and Price’s judgment being compromised because of his dad’s condition as revealed at the end was just too melodramatic. And once again we have Maroun behaving like more of an activist than an ADA - shades of St Olivia Benson there, and I don’t like it even if she made valid points. I was glad the husband decided to have his wife taken off of life support, it’s what she wanted and what I imagine most people would want - I for one certainly wouldn’t want to linger in that condition. And then the whole idea that Price/Maroun were shocked that the defense brought in an expert to testify to their theory was weird, what the hell did they expect? Baxter’s scenes were once again the highlight of the legal side, the rest was too filled with Price/Maroun melodrama. 

I thought the reveal of Price's dad was well done.  Throughout the episode, he's advocating for giving patients a chance to wake up even in the face of insurmountable odds.  Even if it was detrimental to his case.  I had thought he was just following the law.  Then we learn at the end that his dad is in a coma and it makes sense.  However, despite his personal situation, I never felt like he was arguing the way he did solely because of his personal feelings.  Unlike how Maroun usually does it, when her personal feelings and relation to her personal situation are obvious.

19 minutes ago, The Wild Sow said:

Yeah. Sorry, I've never been a fan of Maura Tierney, dating back to her ER days. She's just so one-note, in my opinion.

I've never liked her either.  There's something about her that really just rubs me the wrong way.  I think it's that wrinkled brow, pinched face, quiet "my shit don't stank" mannerisms.

[Theli11]

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I still greatly enjoy L&O but they are infusing way too much personal melodrama into this season - episode 1 had Maroun’s melodrama, episode 3 had Riley’s loser brother, and this episode had the stuff I referenced above. I wish they would cut this out and get back to focusing almost exclusively on the cases - L&O is feeling too much like SVU at times now with the personal crap. 

I think I disagree, this season feels like Seasons 7-8 which was notorious for it's look into the personal life of detectives and lawyers. The personal crap wasn't so overdone here and actually does make sense why Nolan is acting the way he is. The conflict between the Sam & Nolan is so good because it wasn't over done. I think this season is really going to be about characters and just working on their characterizations and I think it's the right place to go here. The legal stuff was interesting this episode I thought, Samantha frustrated me but I've said this before.. it was a good frustration. 

 

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Another thing that annoyed me was Nolan bemoaning setting a precedent for what is death if someone is being kept alive only by mechanical measures and that opens the door for "angels of death" to pull the plug. Does it, though? It's not up to a random hospital employee to make that decision regardless of the condition of the patient. I sort of get what they were going for, but it wasn't persuasive to me at all.

With the final events of the episode (his father's attached to tubes), there's probably a personal reason for why he said this, and something he might fear. But also the point he's making is whether or not taking someone off life support is murder if they're already brain dead. He's saying it can set a slippery slope, Samantha's saying that she doesn't care as long as the bomber goes to prison. 

 

14 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I wish they'd get rid of Maroun or pair her up with assertive ADAs that really push back at her activist/melodramatic tendencies.  She annoys me no end.

The reason Nolan isn't pushing back is because of the ending which is why it's so important. It contextualizes everything and Nolan doesn't seem to have much of a fight against what Samantha's doing. I think if it was another topic Nolan would push back hard (episode 1, Nolan literately gets in a cab to stop Samantha from fucking up)

3 hours ago, buttersister said:

Baxter should pull an Arthur Branch and suggest she take her advocacy somewhere else.

She won the case for them, she's a good lawyer. Besides, there was all sorts of shit Adam let Jack get away with, and in turn we as the audience.

15 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  She had a guy pull the plug on his wife solely to save the case from her screw up.

Did she screw up? She pulled the plug to win the case, but in the end, it wouldn't be healthy for the husband to attach onto a body and keep her alive. 


Honestly 9/10, I think the police side was a little off, and I think they got the Legal side to be a lot better. Overall everyone's good this time around and this cast is doing well for this season.

Notes on the opening: was the explosion CG? 

 

 

[txhorns79]

56 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Did she screw up? She pulled the plug to win the case, but in the end, it wouldn't be healthy for the husband to attach onto a body and keep her alive. 

She recommended an untested case strategy of proclaiming a brain dead woman to be fully deceased so the DA could bring a murder charge instead of attempted murder.  Absent her last minute action in convincing the husband to pull the plug, it sounded like there was a good chance they were going to lose. 

As to whether it would be healthy for the husband to keep his wife alive, that's an issue, but not one for the ADA to be addressing. 

[Theli11]

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

She recommended an untested case strategy of proclaiming a brain dead woman to be fully deceased so the DA could bring a murder charge instead of attempted murder.  Absent her last minute action in convincing the husband to pull the plug, it sounded like there was a good chance they were going to lose.

For the safety of the public, he shouldn't be getting a chance of parole at all. Samantha's just doing her best to ensure that.

 

[dubbel zout]

When we saw the guy who delivered the first bomb hanging outside the bodega, I thought, "Here we go, foot chase!" I'm glad the show has made those shorter.

2 hours ago, Theli11 said:

Notes on the opening: was the explosion CG? 

The flames were kind of cheesy and blurry, so yes. 

Edited October 25 by dubbel zout

[illdoc]

What about the "attempted murder" charges for (a) potentially killing the husband (b) trying to kill the other doctor (c) the other doctor's family?? 

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, illdoc said:

What about the "attempted murder" charges for (a) potentially killing the husband (b) trying to kill the other doctor (c) the other doctor's family?? 

Presumably the collection of charges wouldn't lead to a life sentence in New York without a completed murder 

[Theli11]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

When we saw the guy who delivered the first bomb hanging outside the bodega, I thought, "Here we go, foot chase!" I'm glad the show has made those shorter.

I thought we were gonna get 2 in one episode before the hostage scene started

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Theli11 said:

For the safety of the public, he shouldn't be getting a chance of parole at all. Samantha's just doing her best to ensure that.

Yes.
But I hate the writing for her character.
Is there a word that means Hero Villain?

 

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

I thought the reveal of Price's dad was well done.  Throughout the episode, he's advocating for giving patients a chance to wake up even in the face of insurmountable odds. 

I hated it for personal reasons.  
I can appreciate that it was intended to point out that there are lots of other sides to the coin.
But most viewers won't have any idea.

 

[Raja]

57 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Is there a word that means Hero Villain?

The Antihero, but it would usually be reserved for the vigilantes. Going the next step if ADA Maroun had snuck in to pull the plug

[shapeshifter]

57 minutes ago, Raja said:

The Antihero, but it would usually be reserved for the vigilantes. Going the next step if ADA Maroun had snuck in to pull the plug

Yeah. Not quite it.

We'll come up with something that fits. 

[Sake614]

On 10/25/2024 at 3:26 PM, blackwing said:

his dad is in a coma

He wasn’t in a coma. He moved his legs when Nolan said ‘hi dad’ and there’s a Wheelchair in his room. That was the first thing I noticed about the scene. He’s in a nursing home and on oxygen but still alive so I really didn’t understand why they included it. 

Also re the Bible quote, I’m Jewish and have no knowledge of bible verses, but even I picked up on it being a bible verse 🤣

Edited October 26 by Sake614

[shapeshifter]

37 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

He wasn’t in a coma. He moved his legs when Nolan said ‘hi dad’ and there’s a Wheelchair in his room. That was the first thing I noticed about the scene. He’s in a nursing home and on oxygen but still alive so I really didn’t understand why they included it. 

That was a dagger-through-the-heart scene for me. 
Both my parents dealt with similar situations as they waited to die, even though they had signed Do Not Resuscitate and No Extreme Measures statements — which would apply to Nolan's Dad's being on oxygen if it's required to keep him alive.

[Cotypubby]

On 10/25/2024 at 6:31 PM, illdoc said:

What about the "attempted murder" charges for (a) potentially killing the husband (b) trying to kill the other doctor (c) the other doctor's family?? 

And the guy he took hostage with a giant drill to his neck! One slip of the finger and the guys neck is chopped open.

[me5671]

My, oh my… the courtroom half of this episode was bonkers. I get that the writers wanted to address the ambiguities of where life begins and ends, but that debate would never occur in front of a jury in the middle of a first degree murder trial. No sane defense attorney would make that argument to a jury and expect to win in these circumstances.

If your only defense to the crime is “my victim isn’t completely, 100% dead quite yet”, you might as well take a plea deal. No jury is going to acquit on that basis and split hairs about what “death” means. Not after hearing the apparently uncontested testimony that he made a pipe bomb, paid for someone to deliver it to the victims home, intended for her to die and did in fact put her in the hospital brain dead, unconscious and only being kept physically alive by machines.  Oh, and he also did the same thing to another person but the police were able to stop the bomb from going off in the nick of time. Oh, and also took a hostage when police came to arrest him. But, hey, they presented a dr who says there’s a 0.0001% chance that the victim may one day regain consciousness, so let’s ignore all that and acquit this monster. No jury would ever do that!  Ridiculous to expect that defense would ever work in front of a jury. In reality, once the defense lost the motion to dismiss on the issue of whether or not the victim was dead in the eyes of the law they would pursue other defenses. And preserve the issue regarding the victims death for appellate purposes but they would never ever put all their eggs in that basket. Just bad and unrealistic writing IMO. 

Edited October 27 by me5671

[Sake614]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

That was a dagger-through-the-heart scene for me. 
Both my parents dealt with similar situations as they waited to die, even though they had signed Do Not Resuscitate and No Extreme Measures statements — which would apply to Nolan's Dad's being on oxygen if it's required to keep him alive.

I’m sorry for your loss. My mom is in hospice now but is holding on. ❤️ There are several women at my mom’s facility who are on O2 and still play bingo and attend other activities, so it doesn’t necessarily indicate they’re at death’s door. there could be many reasons his dad was on O2. We’re probably supposed to think he’s at end of life so it ties into the story, but he didn’t look that bad to me. He definitely responded when Nolan said hello.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, me5671 said:

My, oh my… the courtroom half of this episode was bonkers. I get that the writers wanted to address the ambiguities of where life begins and ends, but that debate would never occur in front of a jury in the middle of a first degree murder trial. No sane defense attorney would make that argument to a jury and expect to win in these circumstances.

If your only defense to the crime is “my victim isn’t completely, 100% dead quite yet”, you might as well take a plea deal. No jury is going to acquit on that basis and split hairs about what “death” means. Not after hearing the apparently uncontested testimony that he made a pipe bomb, paid for someone to deliver it to the victims home, intended for her to die and did in fact put her in the hospital brain dead, unconscious and only being kept physically alive by machines.  Oh, and he also did the same thing to another person but the police were able to stop the bomb from going off in the nick of time. Oh, and also took a hostage when police came to arrest him. But, hey, they presented a dr who says there’s a 0.0001% chance that the victim may one day regain consciousness, so let’s ignore all that and acquit this monster. No jury would ever do that!  Ridiculous to expect that defense would ever work in front of a jury. In reality, once the defense lost the motion to dismiss on the issue of whether or not the victim was dead in the eyes of the law they would pursue other defenses. And preserve the issue regarding the victims death for appellate purposes but they would never ever put all their eggs in that basket. Just bad and unrealistic writing IMO. 

Even if New York dropped the death penalty again it seemed the defense was just fighting the 1st degree murder charge. Is that life without the possibility of parole now?

But you are correct it was weird that no plea deal was included as if Mr Baxter wanted the confrontation on the issue and was willing to risk a lower sentence for the murderer.

[Irlandesa]

On 10/25/2024 at 10:28 AM, dubbel zout said:

It's also not the same thing as deciding to have an abortion. I didn't like the implication that Riley and his wife mourning a miscarriage was unusual.

It's not the same but I do like how they compared how people feel about a cluster of cells.  For a couple hoping to have a baby, they mean everything when it implants in a uterus.  Losing them can be devastating.  For those seeking fertility treatments, those embryos can mean everything but once a couple has a baby or two from those treatments, the remainder may have less importance to the couple.  They go from potential children to just a bunch of cells. 

I kind of felt this was a bit of a spiritual successor to S9.E6 Scrambled where an ex-wife and a widow fight over the remaining embryos that the now deceased ex-husband "owned" upon his death. 

On 10/25/2024 at 1:55 PM, The Wild Sow said:

Yeah. Sorry, I've never been a fan of Maura Tierney, dating back to her ER days. She's just so one-note, in my opinion.

 

I've always found her dour as an actress which works for some roles and not for others.  So far, I think she's okay here but not better than Dixon.  I would still prefer her.

On 10/25/2024 at 2:59 PM, Theli11 said:

I think I disagree, this season feels like Seasons 7-8 which was notorious for it's look into the personal life of detectives and lawyers. The personal crap wasn't so overdone here and actually does make sense why Nolan is acting the way he is.

I didn't mind the personal stuff in this episode either.  It's better than last week's which was more like a SVU story.

On 10/25/2024 at 4:06 PM, txhorns79 said:

She recommended an untested case strategy of proclaiming a brain dead woman to be fully deceased so the DA could bring a murder charge instead of attempted murder.

Making recommendations based on case law is her job.  She presented her case. Nolan presented his.  Baxter made the call, as it's his job, and he'd suffer the political consequences of the decision. Baxter would be a terrible boss if he turned around and blamed his underlings for his decisions.  If she had lied or presented an underdeveloped argument?  Sure but it doesn't sound like she did.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

Making recommendations based on case law is her job.  She presented her case. Nolan presented his.  Baxter made the call, as it's his job, and he'd suffer the political consequences of the decision. Baxter would be a terrible boss if he turned around and blamed his underlings for his decisions.  If she had lied or presented an underdeveloped argument?  Sure but it doesn't sound like she did.

Yes, the screw up ultimately belongs to all of them, but it was her idea.  She's also the one who ran over the hospital when the strategy appeared to be failing to get the husband to pull the plug so the victim could be officially dead before the case went to the jury.  I don't recall Nolan or Baxter giving her their blessing to do that, nor am I impressed by that kind of behavior.

[paigow]

McCoy [or maybe Cutter] had a case where a comatose victim was deported and the parents were pressured by McCoy into disconnecting life support 

[CrystalBlue]

On 10/24/2024 at 9:29 PM, buckboard said:

Also, the prosecution had no knowledge of the Lazarus witness, who  just popped up all of a sudden?  Wouldn't they have had plenty of time to bring in their own experts to dispute that testimony?

Not to mention that the prosecution only found out about the victim's living trust and DNR toward the end of the trial.

On 10/24/2024 at 10:12 PM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

Yeah, she was practically twisting his arm, psychologically. I don't like when either side of an issue like this intrudes on the actual family going through the thing.

I wish they'd get rid of Maroun or pair her up with assertive ADAs that really push back at her activist/melodramatic tendencies.  She annoys me no end.

Maroun's big googly-eyed looks and batting her eyelashes annoys me no end.

[Theli11]

9 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Not to mention that the prosecution only found out about the victim's living trust and DNR toward the end of the trial.

I'd reckon with the case Nolan wanted to do, it wasn't necessary. Sam found it because she was actually looking for it and a way to make murder more digestible for the Jury. 

 

13 hours ago, paigow said:

McCoy [or maybe Cutter] had a case where a comatose victim was deported and the parents were pressured by McCoy into disconnecting life support 

Both of them pull this kind of stunt a lot. With Cutter it was like once every 5 episodes where he oversteps to make a case. 

 

17 hours ago, me5671 said:

My, oh my… the courtroom half of this episode was bonkers. I get that the writers wanted to address the ambiguities of where life begins and ends, but that debate would never occur in front of a jury in the middle of a first degree murder trial. No sane defense attorney would make that argument to a jury and expect to win in these circumstances.

If your only defense to the crime is “my victim isn’t completely, 100% dead quite yet”, you might as well take a plea deal. No jury is going to acquit on that basis and split hairs about what “death” means. Not after hearing the apparently uncontested testimony that he made a pipe bomb, paid for someone to deliver it to the victims home, intended for her to die and did in fact put her in the hospital brain dead, unconscious and only being kept physically alive by machines.  Oh, and he also did the same thing to another person but the police were able to stop the bomb from going off in the nick of time. Oh, and also took a hostage when police came to arrest him. But, hey, they presented a dr who says there’s a 0.0001% chance that the victim may one day regain consciousness, so let’s ignore all that and acquit this monster. No jury would ever do that!  Ridiculous to expect that defense would ever work in front of a jury. In reality, once the defense lost the motion to dismiss on the issue of whether or not the victim was dead in the eyes of the law they would pursue other defenses. And preserve the issue regarding the victims death for appellate purposes but they would never ever put all their eggs in that basket. Just bad and unrealistic writing IMO. 

I think it made sense. For the defense it's more of a, it can't be murder if they come back to life kind of thing. That's why they brought the Lazarus guy to testify. 

15 hours ago, Raja said:

But you are correct it was weird that no plea deal was included as if Mr Baxter wanted the confrontation on the issue and was willing to risk a lower sentence for the murderer.

They weren't fighting for acquittal here, they were fighting to give him a life sentence and the defense is fighting for a chance of parole. Sam was very strong on wanting to throw the book at him. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Early bet: the victim's husband was the perp. Publicity surrounding his wife's death would increase his book sales. (Later: nope, not him. Oops!)

The murdered wife was a reproductive endocrinologist. So maybe the perp was a pro-life fanatic. (Later: called it on the second try!)

Riley being able to cite a random Bible verse off the top of his head was unexpected. Especially an Old Testament verse.

Sending a bomb in a Tiffany's-colored gift bag in NYC is extra diabolical. I think people would naturally assume the bag contains something fancy and not hesitate to open it immediately.

Andrea at the pro-life organization looked like she cosplays a character from The Handmaids Tale after work hours.

Wow, Riley coming through with his Catholic school catechism learning in order to disarm the religiously misguided murder suspect. I wonder if the writers really wanted Shaw to be the one quoting the Bible due to upbringing in an A-A Christian church, but decided against it to avoid using a possible stereotype.

The brain-dead wife's husband said he'd do what he needed to when he  testified against the murder defendant. That almost sounded like a threat and I was halfway expecting him to lunge at the defendant after leaving the witness stand.

The defendant's mean-mugging at the prosecution witnesses was a lot. Why was he allowed to do that?

Lazarus Syndrome, schlazarus syndrome. The defendant intended to kill the victim and she hadn't miraculously recovered. He basically put a death penalty on her. Plus, he'd already killed or attempted to kill other people. The defense attorney was throwing crap at the wall to see if any of it would stick.

Gosh, that ending. It didn't seem like Maroun or Baxter know about Price's father or they might've suggested he take second chair on this case.

[Theli11]

14 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wow, Riley coming through with his Catholic school catechism learning in order to disarm the religiously misguided murder suspect. I wonder if the writers really wanted Shaw to be the one quoting the Bible due to upbringing in an A-A Christian church, but decided against it to avoid using a possible stereotype.

Catholic Cop is already Law & Order’s favorite, if Shaw said it I’d be more accepting (and would make more sense that a catholic citing Bible verses) See below:

On 10/25/2024 at 9:15 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was annoyed that he knew the Bible verse. Catholic's approach the Bible differently than American Protestants and do not prioritize knowing chapter and verse. That particular Bible verse is well-cited in anti-choice circles, but not something taught in a typical religion class in a Catholic school.

15 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Lazarus Syndrome, schlazarus syndrome. The defendant intended to kill the victim and she hadn't miraculously recovered. He basically put a death penalty on her. Plus, he'd already killed or attempted to kill other people. The defense attorney was throwing crap at the wall to see if any of it would stick.

The law can’t tell the future. The defendant’s actions didn’t kill her right then and there. And if she comes back alive like the defense is implying, it’s a huge problem if he got convicted. 
 

If someone purposefully infected someone with a confirmed 99.999% deadly disease and they haven’t died yet, you’d be imprisoning someone for a crime that has yet to be done/finished if you get what I’m saying. The defense has to do their job at the end of the day. 

[Raja]

28 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Catholic Cop is already Law & Order’s favorite, if Shaw said it I’d be more accepting (and would make more sense that a catholic citing Bible verses) See below:

I guess the problem is that was the Lupo and Bernard relationship. With Lupo more antagonistic while Bernard saying he could be seen in church on Sundays.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The brain-dead wife's husband said he'd do what he needed to when he  testified against the murder defendant. That almost sounded like a threat and I was halfway expecting him to lunge at the defendant after leaving the witness stand.

The way the actor playing "brain-dead wife's husband" delivered the line definitely would have given me pause if he said it to me and I was the attorney, but somehow I didn't think he'd go Rambo or anything; I thought he'd just screw it up for the prosecution somehow, like keeping his wife alive was his main priority?
Looking up the transcript, I see "Suspenseful Music" included, so maybe the music implied something to me, but I haven't rewatched:

• And we are charging the bomber with first-degree murder.
• [HUSBAND] Go after that sick animal with everything you've got. It's just...I'm not ready to disconnect her from life support yet.
• It's all right. You don't have to.
• No, but we will need you to testify. And for that, you can't waver on your acceptance of Sarah's death. Putting Patrick Wayne behind bars will depend on it.
• [SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC (HUSBAND)] I'll do what I need to do.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Theli11 said:

The defendant’s actions didn’t kill her right then and there. And if she comes back alive like the defense is implying, it’s a huge problem if he got convicted. 

It's not as if the crime goes away. He still tried to kill her. There would probably be grounds for some sort of retrial or reduction in sentence or something, but the defendant wouldn't go free just because the wife woke up.

[Sake614]

15 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

It's not as if the crime goes away. He still tried to kill her. There would probably be grounds for some sort of retrial or reduction in sentence or something, but the defendant wouldn't go free just because the wife woke up.

Wouldn’t he thought? He can’t be retried for the same crime. Jeopardy attaches. I guess they could try him for attempted murder but again, it’s against the same person and for the same crime. If she woke up, it isn’t murder and his sentence would be vacated. I think…🤷‍♀️

[dubbel zout]

IANAL, just a spitballing poster.

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Theli11 said:

Catholic Cop is already Law & Order’s favorite, if Shaw said it I’d be more accepting (and would make more sense that a catholic citing Bible verses)

Stone, Greavey & Logan took turns playing the Catholicism card... McCoy not so much

[Theli11]

11 hours ago, Sake614 said:

Wouldn’t he thought? He can’t be retried for the same crime. Jeopardy attaches. I guess they could try him for attempted murder but again, it’s against the same person and for the same crime. If she woke up, it isn’t murder and his sentence would be vacated. I think…🤷‍♀️

Very easy appeal to win. 

 

8 hours ago, paigow said:

Stone, Greevey & Logan took turns playing the Catholicism card... McCoy not so much

Don't know if they were quoting bible verses too much. Greevey had his own explicit prejudices and Logan had trauma. Stone I don't think I remembered any episodes where he was all catholic and righteous

[Xeliou66]

23 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Very easy appeal to win. 

 

Don't know if they were quoting bible verses too much. Greevey had his own explicit prejudices and Logan had trauma. Stone I don't think I remembered any episodes where he was all catholic and righteous

About religion of characters on L&O -

Stone had several lines about being Catholic throughout his 4 years, I remember his “I’m Catholic, I can feel guilty about anything” line and a few other references to it as well, but I don’t know if he was devout or practicing. The only ones who seemed strongly religious in L&O are Greevey, Curtis, Borgia and maybe Bernard. Logan was raised religious but had strong resentment towards the church because of his abusive mom who was devout and the pedophile priest who molested his friend - I remember in the episode Apocrypha he told Lennie he wouldn’t set foot in a church again. 
About the others - Lupo quoted a Bible verse from memory in an episode similar to how Riley did here, but we never learned if Lupo had a religious education or upbringing and he never seemed religious. We never learned anything about Green’s beliefs or upbringing. Briscoe came from a mixed religious background, one Jewish parent, one Christian, but he didn’t practice either. No idea about Cerreta, Cragen, Van Buren, Fontana or Cassady. 
For the lawyers Jack was of course a lapsed Catholic and didn’t care for organized religion it seemed but didn’t judge it either. Adam was Jewish, Kincaid was agnostic, no idea about Paul, Jamie, Abbie or Serena or Nora, Arthur mentioned believing in god once or twice but no idea what specific denomination he was or what exactly he believed, Rubirosa mentioned attending church when she was young, Cutter was clearly not religious - this was in the episode Rapture when Connie suggested her and Cutter pray with the Reverend who was a reluctant witness, Cutter was visibly uncomfortable, and afterwards was when Connie mentioned she prepared for church just like she prepared for court.

I think this about sums up L&O characters and their religious circumstances. I found it a bit out of the blue that Riley mentioned attending Catholic school since nothing had been mentioned about that until now, and it was kind of unnecessary IMO, I didn’t attend religious school but I immediately deduced the bracelet the guy wore was likely a Bible verse from Jeremiah, though I didn’t know the specific verse. Overall that was handled okay - the stuff from this episode I didn’t like was the melodrama of Price’s dad being ill, activist Maroun, and the reveal of Riley’s wife’s miscarriage which really had nothing to do with the case and seemed just thrown in for melodrama and to give another tragic story for a character. L&O is best with minimal personal stuff, and there’s been a bit too much this year, sort of like how there was too much in season 8 and it really bogged the show down at the end of that season. Leave the personal stuff for the soapy SVU show, and focus on the cases on the Mothership.

This was a lengthy post but I hope it gives people an idea of the characters backgrounds.

[zapper]

a couple of people have commented that the miscarriage was out of place and had nothing to do with the case.

without getting into one side or the other, I think point they were trying to make is that the miscarriage was grieved as the loss of a child - not going to be a child, but already a child because that is what they believed - a person starts before the moment of birth. In the same way the destruction of the 100 cells invisible to the naked eye is seen as the murder of a child.

Again, not taking one side or the other, it's just how I viewed what they were trying to do with the scene.

[Xeliou66]

8 minutes ago, zapper said:

a couple of people have commented that the miscarriage was out of place and had nothing to do with the case.

without getting into one side or the other, I think point they were trying to make is that the miscarriage was grieved as the loss of a child - not going to be a child, but already a child because that is what they believed - a person starts before the moment of birth. In the same way the destruction of the 100 cells invisible to the naked eye is seen as the murder of a child.

Again, not taking one side or the other, it's just how I viewed what they were trying to do with the scene.

I think that’s what they were going for but it just seemed odd - mourning a miscarriage is normal, anyone would have a hard time with that, and there’s a big difference between miscarriage and abortion or IVF issues. It was just clunky and thrown in for melodrama it felt, just like Price’s dad being ill at the end was. I’m just ready for them to dial back the personal stuff I guess. 

[Theli11]

On 10/29/2024 at 6:16 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I think that’s what they were going for but it just seemed odd - mourning a miscarriage is normal, anyone would have a hard time with that, and there’s a big difference between miscarriage and abortion or IVF issues. It was just clunky and thrown in for melodrama it felt, just like Price’s dad being ill at the end was. I’m just ready for them to dial back the personal stuff I guess. 

Eh, I think the point was that Riley didn't necessarily believe in the act that a fetus was just a clunk of cells. I think it's okay for the detectives to talk about it to each other. the Melodrama wasn't as melodrama as Season 8 (they wasn't breaking from the season long plot lines like Season 8 did [or Season 20 for Van Buren]. It stayed relevant to the case, and I don't think the detectives should be blank slates because at the end of the day they're still characters. Price's dad being ill at the end is also still relevant to the case because it's the reason for his feelings.