S24.E02 The Perfect Man

[Xeliou66]

Episode description 

When the founder of an AI-infused dating app is murdered, Shaw and Riley delve into who would want the love-obsessed man dead; Capt Benson surprises Price and Maroun when she becomes a witness for the defense. 

[MerBearHou]

Ugh, go away, Olivia Benson…

[Spartan Girl]

Well, all of Liv’s meddling was for nothing. I wish she would have gotten reprehended for all her dirty tactics, but she didn’t get her way about Laura, and Price put her in his place, so I’m satisfied with that. Serves her sanctimonious ass right.

Edited October 11 by Spartan Girl

[dttruman]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Episode description 

When the founder of an AI-infused dating app is murdered, Shaw and Riley delve into who would want the love-obsessed man dead; Capt Benson surprises Price and Maroun when she becomes a witness for the defense. 

IMO, Benson testimony is so tainted and she uses the perfect description of the defendant's thoughts when she said "Her Truth", not  "the truth'. Benson is becoming an advocate for every victim and  tries to justify every victim's act of revenge.

[txhorns79]

I laughed for what must have been a full minute at the idea of Olivia Benson as a globally recognized expert in anything.  

[MerBearHou]

They have written this character to be one who thinks she’s better at your job than you are, and her manner is sanctimonious and smug and I absolutely cannot watch her sometimes.  A big, big part of that is how Mariska plays the role.  

[Xeliou66]

This was a very good episode overall - yes Benson was as sanctimonious and as annoying as I expected but the case itself was really interesting and strong.

Benson was of course more of an advocate than a police officer and she was out of bounds trying to get the killer off because she was a rape victim - this is in character for Benson though - she believes being assaulted gives a woman a right to take the law into her own hands, we’ve seen it over and over. I throughly enjoyed Price cross examining her and knocking her down a peg. Benson needs to be fired for interfering in other cases and going against protocol repeatedly, but we all know that won’t happen. Still it was nice seeing other “good guys” disagree with her.  

The victim was a weirdo and creepy, but the killing wasn’t justified, he wasn’t violent and he was pretty far from the perp when she shot him, she didn’t have to kill him, she could’ve walked away, or called someone for help, or used a non lethal weapon such as pepper spray if he got close to her. And she staged the scene to make it look like a robbery instead of calling for help and she covered up evidence. Price’s closing did a good job of laying out why she was guilty and the jury got the right verdict. But I also think Baxter was right to offer a man 1 plea, there were mitigating factors and the defendant was really dumb to ignore Benson’s and Calhoun’s advice and go to verdict.

The DNA database stuff was interesting and I thought Benson for once made valid points about it, the ethics surrounding that are just too murky and Baxter was right to shut it down IMO. This was an interesting debate about a relevant issue.

I’m really enjoying Baxter, he’s a strong DA and I like how he approaches cases with an open mind and can see all sides. It was interesting that Benson called him “Nick”, there was nothing to suggest they had ever had much interaction before so that was notable. Price also used Baxter’s first name for I believe the first time tonight, they are getting more comfortable with each other. Baxter’s scenes are highlights for me.

The investigation was good as usual and Shaw/Riley were good, they have a nice easy dynamic. I liked the scenes of them in the drug den and in the abandoned building, good L&O detective stuff and a good investigation that progressed nicely. I liked Brady better this week as well also.

Overall this was in fact one of the best episodes of the revival in spite of Benson being her usual condescending, preachy, irritating self. The case was interesting, both legal and detective stuff were good, the issues raised were handled pretty well and we had characters discussing different points of view without vilifying anyone. All characters were used well. Strong episode!! 

[Irlandesa]

I didn't think I'd enjoy the episode but I did.  There was a lot more nuance in general to the case, from bringing in the local database to Baxter's decision-making. I continue to be a Baxter fan.  Not only do I like Tony Goldwyn but the writing is serving the character well and giving a much needed boost to the legal side of the show.

I was actually surprised Benson didn't come out on top.  She's almost never wrong on SVU so this might have been the best episode her character has had in a while.  (Although I'm only an occasional viewer.)

[shapeshifter]

Was the murder victim supposed to be a type of Elon Musk? Or a type of some other known tech personality? Or a composite of 2 or more? He actually seemed as fictional as the AI personality. I guess that was on purpose as a kind of meta commentary — almost scifi-ish.

And was the victim supposed to have a mental illness on par with schizophrenia?
Both the victim and the murderer seemed to have lost their grips on reality.
Shouldn’t someone have suggested an insanity defense, even just to have it dismissed with a throwaway line? They could’ve even had someone make a jokey remark in response to the suggestion of an insanity defense about how it was too bad the perp didn’t see the victim as having an insanity defense. I guess they would have to have Lennie Briscoe or Mike Logan to deliver the line.

[Irlandesa]

57 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Shouldn’t someone have suggested an insanity defense, even just to have it dismissed with a throwaway line?

Yes!  I forgot to mention that was one of my gripes as well--that her defense lawyer didn't argue for some sort of diminished capacity defense.

[Raja]

With Price watching the interrogation and taking the ADA's role in the show  I said to myself why bother giving Maroun a line during the suppression hearing.

So  Captain Benson is a globally recognized expert. She might as well retire as defense attorneys well dominate her time calling her in to justify revenge murders. 

[dttruman]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I laughed for what must have been a full minute at the idea of Olivia Benson as a globally recognized expert in anything.  

What the HELL, they don't believe a noted shrink can testify. it has to be bias SVU officer to get their point across?

[GiandujaPie]

At first I thought the perp, the rape victim, was being stalked by the app, as it was mentioned that once you started "dating" Eli, if you tried to break up with him he would follow you around on all your social media and try to get you back together. I guess it's kind of like the way ads for items you searched for pop up on all your other internet activity. So I thought that she got confused and thought she was being stalked by the guy in real life when she saw him even though they had never actually met, he was just the face of the app. But it turns out they actually were dating in real life! LOL 

I don't understand the point of the app. So you get to have a pretend AI boyfriend who will text you and call you? If he sends you gifts, is the cost of the gifts included in the app's fees? Why would anyone pay for something like this? Just so you can get daily texts as if you had a real boyfriend? 

She absolutely should have taken the deal. Not sure why Olivia blames Price for charging her the way he did, and it's not his fault the defendant didn't take the deal. 

[shapeshifter]

53 minutes ago, GiandujaPie said:

Olivia blames Price for charging her the way he did, and it's not his fault the defendant didn't take the deal. 

I think it was kind of a "You should know better; we've already been through this."
Maybe someone else posting here can recall the episode where it was established that they would not use the rape-victims' DNA database anymore to identify perp DNA?

[KittyKat425]

I basically stopped watched SVU and only Law and Order because of Olivia Benson and yet, there she is. Please make her stay in her own lane.

[watcher1006]

 

13 minutes ago, KittyKat425 said:

I basically stopped watched SVU and only Law and Order because of Olivia Benson and yet, there she is. Please make her stay in her own lane.

I gave up on SVU a few years ago when I decided it had become too much of an individual star vehicle for Mariska Hargitay in her role as Olivia Benson. I like Mariska Hargitay, but I enjoyed the show when it was more of an acting ensemble rather than being too focused on a central character, which is what it had become.

The murderer had to pay some price, and she did decline the deal. Short of killing the Eli guy, she could have pursued another option. She didn't trust the police or the criminal justice system to protect her but didn't she have a personal tie to the captain? I was thinking she could have turned directly to Olivia for help.

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I liked the scenes of them in the drug den

It cracked me up that Shaw and Riley were prowling around the drug den wearing vests emblazoned with POLICE and they were miffed no one would talk to them. At least this week's chase scene was extremely short, ha!

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe someone else posting here can recall the episode where it was established that they would not use the rape-victims' DNA database anymore to identify perp DNA?

Was it ever explicitly established, or did using it cause enough trouble that there was informal agreement not to use it? Either Shaw or Riley said that the previous LT didn't like them using it because defense attorneys had a field day with it, and this LT said she didn't care, she wasn't the previous LT and they had to use the tools they had.

1 minute ago, watcher1006 said:

I was thinking she could have turned directly to Olivia for help.

During the plea deal discussion, Olivia said exactly this.

There was a lot going on in this episode, and I'm not sure I really like how the show tries to cover a lot of issues at once. The app stuff was ignored once they arrested the young woman; why bring it up at all? The guy didn't need to have created it to be a creep.

 

[dttruman]

15 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

They have written this character to be one who thinks she’s better at your job than you are, and her manner is sanctimonious and smug and I absolutely cannot watch her sometimes.  A big, big part of that is how Mariska plays the role.  

Well Said!!!

[Madding crowd]

I didn’t understand the app. So women find it romantic for an AI boyfriend to send memes and pep talks throughout the day? Sounds more like a therapy app. And does everyone get Tyler’s face? What if he isn’t your type? I thought Olivia was being ridiculous to suggest someone who is traumatized by an assault could be triggered to kill at any time and can’t be held responsible. I did think the defense attorney should have pushed harder on the stalking angle but it seemed they didn’t have any actual threats.

[dubbel zout]

...

Edited October 11 by dubbel zout

[paigow]

L & O has a cluster of arrogant defendants who roll the dice with a jury verdict instead of making a deal...

[Theli11]

I found this episode really good, Benson not withstanding, it did use her pretty well for a legal argument and it makes sense she's not happy with them using the rape kit to get DNA (then victims will be more hesitant to get DNA). Olivia is frustrating in a good way this time around. One thing I wasn't a fan of is when Olivia says that she's an advocate for woman.. which like okay, but SVU gets male victims too.. If she said she's an advocate for rape victims then I'd be a little more fine with it. Price is right when he says that Tyler is a victim too and he didn't do anything illegal... 

[illdoc]

Anyone else think "The Perfect Man" wasn't actually all that good looking? Or was that the point? BTW, it seems like they took away most of Elizabeth Marvell's (the defense attorney) lines and gave them to Benson. She (EM) seem to say very little. She said, what one word?, during the "take the deal" meeting. She was the attorney, not Benson! She should have been the one pressing to take the deal! The defendant didn't even bother consulting her attorney, just Benson.

[babyrambo]

Didn’t feel bad for the app creator in the least, it seemed like a clear case of stalking and when people say to leave them alone, it’s wise to listen. But though I got where the victim was coming from, I think she should have taken the deal. 10 years after all she’d been through is a lot, but a sure thing is better than hinging hope of the jury, at least in this case.

And I’m one of the few who doesn’t mind Benson—I’ve only caught a few SVU episodes since they let Kat go but I actually love how hard Liv goes for victims and didn’t notice the shift in screentime until reading this board—I see it now but it still doesn’t bother me. She’s always felt like the main character of SVU to me so the Law and Order: LIV feels like a natural continuation to me lol. Plus it’s not like the others are all that riveting. Although that might be due Benson sucking up their screentime so I see the point there. 

Outside of the Liv of it all, this episode actually reminded me of seasons 8-10 of the original run in tone and complexity, especially the Green/Lennie - McCoy/Abbie era. The writing got a lot more ridiculous and flashy during that time but it was a good run. 

[preeya]

"globally recognized authority in this field"

I almost fell out of my chair when I heard this B.S.

Also, what happened to Elizabeth Marvel; she looks terrible. Is she ill?

Edited October 12 by preeya

[dttruman]

17 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The DNA database stuff was interesting and I thought Benson for once made valid points about it, the ethics surrounding that are just too murky and Baxter was right to shut it down IMO. This was an interesting debate about a relevant issue.

Wasn't this question raised last year on an episode of SVU? IMO, when the victim of a rape submits her blood (or DNA) in order to determine the rapist DNA, she can't plead the 5th. if her blood (or DNA) is found to be identified in another felony.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, illdoc said:

Anyone else think "The Perfect Man" wasn't actually all that good looking? Or was that the point?

Yes.✋
But I think his AI version was a bit more attractive, so maybe that was the point?

I also thought it was interesting that the perp was not classically good looking either. 

It was almost like: In another version of the story they would have lived happily ever after.

[paigow]

34 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I also thought it was interesting that the perp was not classically good looking either. 

Guy creates AI... Realistic placement on the Zuckerberg - Clooney spectrum

[MarylandGirl]

17 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Yes!  I forgot to mention that was one of my gripes as well--that her defense lawyer didn't argue for some sort of diminished capacity defense.

Agreed! And I think the fact that she just put her hands out for the cuffs when they found her would be more evidence for this. (I actually was expecting it to go in a different direction due to that, like she was trying to take a stand against AI and was proud of what she'd done. Though then Olivia wouldn't have had a reason to be there.)

[shapeshifter]

They *almost* went for the different Olivia-angle near the end with:

• [BENSON] And if you would have called me when he was stalking you, I could have done something to help you.

I wish they could have had a few more lines between Olivia and a DA or ADA or even the perp's lawyer about the conundrum of using a flawed case to make the point that the database of DNA records of rape victims should not be used for criminal investigations. 

[paigow]

23 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

They *almost* went for the different Olivia-angle near the end with:

• [BENSON] And if you would have called me when he was stalking you, I could have done something to help you.

would have shot him

[EtheltoTillie]

Who played the defense attorney?  I can’t find it on IMBD in the episode listing 

The ethics issue of using the DNA was really interesting. 

[Xeliou66]

19 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Who played the defense attorney?  I can’t find it on IMBD in the episode listing 

The ethics issue of using the DNA was really interesting. 

The defense attorney was Rita Calhoun, played by Elizabeth Marvel. The character has been in several SVU episodes, this was her first appearance on the Mothership though. The actress has played several roles throughout the franchise. 

[Irlandesa]

9 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I didn’t understand the app. So women find it romantic for an AI boyfriend to send memes and pep talks throughout the day? Sounds more like a therapy app.

I think it's a little more than that.  I think the app validates a woman's desires.  It "listens" to the women.  It flatters them.  There are apps that will cosplay fictional characters and let you interact with them. It can feel real even though it's all fake.

The one thing that didn't make sense was paying $80/month for it when I think there are free versions out there. 

[Madding crowd]

I get that, I was being a bit facetious. Personally, I would find zero heat or romantic attraction to a dweeb sending me affirmations all day. I don’t buy people dumping an actual boyfriend for this app. I do think it could make a great virtual therapist though.

[EtheltoTillie]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The defense attorney was Rita Calhoun, played by Elizabeth Marvel. The character has been in several SVU episodes, this was her first appearance on the Mothership though. The actress has played several roles throughout the franchise. 

Good lord, she was unrecognizable!   I saw her in the cast list but she didn’t look like herself.  She seemed emaciated. She was recently on Presumed Innocent and looked like her usual self

Edited October 12 by EtheltoTillie

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

The one thing that didn't make sense was paying $80/month for it when I think there are free versions out there. 

It sends you flowers and other gifts. That's probably where the subscription comes in.

[dttruman]

On 10/11/2024 at 11:36 AM, shapeshifter said:

Maybe someone else posting here can recall the episode where it was established that they would not use the rape-victims' DNA database anymore to identify perp DNA?

A girls DNA of a Rape  Database was or wasn't considered admissible or it was unconstitutional because the girl's DNA was identified in some kind of jewelry heist of over $ 100,000. If I remember right, Benson thought this girl should be allowed to get away with that crime.

[marc20]

On 10/11/2024 at 1:58 AM, shapeshifter said:

Was the murder victim supposed to be a type of Elon Musk? Or a type of some other known tech personality? Or a composite of 2 or more? He actually seemed as fictional as the AI personality. I guess that was on purpose as a kind of meta commentary — almost scifi-ish.

And was the victim supposed to have a mental illness on par with schizophrenia?
Both the victim and the murderer seemed to have lost their grips on reality.
Shouldn’t someone have suggested an insanity defense, even just to have it dismissed with a throwaway line? They could’ve even had someone make a jokey remark in response to the suggestion of an insanity defense about how it was too bad the perp didn’t see the victim as having an insanity defense. I guess they would have to have Lennie Briscoe or Mike Logan to deliver the line.

one thing the revival definitely hasn't revived is the humor of the original

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, marc20 said:

one thing the revival definitely hasn't revived is the humor of the original

Agrees I miss some of the dark humor and wisecracks but no one can deliver it like Lennie Briscoe or Adam Schiff could. L&O in the final years of its original run didn’t have as many witty one liners or humorous moments as it did when Lennie and Adam were on. 

[marc20]

was the perp the girl who was in the old episode where the character had left home and helped in a killing but she said she had amnesia the whole time?

1 minute ago, Xeliou66 said:

Agrees I miss some of the dark humor and wisecracks but no one can deliver it like Lennie Briscoe or Adam Schiff could. L&O in the final years of its original run didn’t have as many witty one liners or humorous moments as it did when Lennie and Adam were on. 

glad you mentioned Schiff as on par with Lennie when it came to the humor element...Briscoe always gets credit for it but Schiff could definitely match him

[Xeliou66]

Just now, marc20 said:

was the perp the girl who was in the old episode where the character had left home and helped in a killing but she said she had amnesia the whole time?

Wow, great call it’s the same actress, I just looked it up! I didn’t even notice that! Different character, but it’s the same actress who played Bonnie/Amanda in Steel Eyed Death - the girl who assisted her psychopath boyfriend in the murder of the family but said she had no idea who she was or where she came from. It was kind of left open ended whether she was telling the truth about that - Skoda was skeptical but she did have head trauma that could’ve caused it, and they let her go to a mental hospital for an indefinite period of time. I didn’t piece it together that the perp here was played by the same actress! 

[preeya]

56 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

dark humor and wisecracks but no one can deliver it like Lennie Briscoe

Found this, enjoy!

 

[ML89]

On 10/11/2024 at 4:30 PM, babyrambo said:

Didn’t feel bad for the app creator in the least, it seemed like a clear case of stalking and when people say to leave them alone, it’s wise to listen. But though I got where the victim was coming from, I think she should have taken the deal. 10 years after all she’d been through is a lot, but a sure thing is better than hinging hope of the jury, at least in this case.

I was quoting Adam Schiff nonstop in the second half: “make a deal.” 

‘I’m really beginning to like Baxter, surprisingly. Also, surprisingly, Lt Maura Tierney. Shaw and Riley continue to be a good team and the actors must have complained - their last two chases have been about twenty feet!

Interesting that Maroun barely said a word this ep.

[paigow]

Maybe court scenes are too repetitive, so more screen time is allocated for pre-murder victim exposition instead of standard body discovery by standard NYC archetypes...

[Raja]

10 minutes ago, paigow said:

Maybe court scenes are too repetitive, so more screen time is allocated for pre-murder victim exposition instead of standard body discovery by standard NYC archetypes...

Seeing that the franchise went down that path of dropping the "order" to more limited roles with Criminal Intent and SVU. Then Wolf's One Chicago franchise losing Justice meanwhile the FBIs never looked at the US Attorney's suggest he just wants to do a cop show but is stuck presenting the lawyer half.

[Diana Berry]

What’s happened to the lady cop that did all the camera, web searches last season? 

[Raja]

6 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

What’s happened to the lady cop that did all the camera, web searches last season? 

She's not one of the Big 6 and time for a more active Lieutenant had to come from someone. 

I was more shocked at ADA Maroun showing up after Mr. Price took "her role" at the precinct. I was sure that given the large cast Odelya Halevi had the week off when she showed up to give two lines in the judge's chambers.

[wknt3]

On 10/12/2024 at 7:47 PM, marc20 said:

one thing the revival definitely hasn't revived is the humor of the original

 

On 10/12/2024 at 7:50 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Agrees I miss some of the dark humor and wisecracks but no one can deliver it like Lennie Briscoe or Adam Schiff could. L&O in the final years of its original run didn’t have as many witty one liners or humorous moments as it did when Lennie and Adam were on. 

True, but there are many ways that they can deliver some comic relief. And just because nobody can do it like Jerry Orbach doesn't mean you stop trying entirely. The later years still had a lot more humorous moments than the current seasons both wry observations and slice of life comedy where the humor came from people being walking NYC stereotypes or simply dumb and/or self-centered. It is a problem of writing not acting - I mean Ice-T is still on SVU but he doesn't get the same amount of snarky one liners he used to. And they still had Sam Waterston until last season who could deliver a quip, even if he was not Steven Hill.
 

On 10/12/2024 at 10:02 PM, paigow said:

Maybe court scenes are too repetitive, so more screen time is allocated for pre-murder victim exposition instead of standard body discovery by standard NYC archetypes...

 

On 10/12/2024 at 10:17 PM, Raja said:

Seeing that the franchise went down that path of dropping the "order" to more limited roles with Criminal Intent and SVU. Then Wolf's One Chicago franchise losing Justice meanwhile the FBIs never looked at the US Attorney's suggest he just wants to do a cop show but is stuck presenting the lawyer half.

I suspect it's the same thing - the writing not being as good. With a little bit of budget cuts tossed in. It's harder to write a gripping courtroom scene and usually requires exposition in the DA's office to set up which is even more difficult to write compellingly. Also many of the great courtroom twists come from seemingly minor characters who we discover later on are much more important - with significantly fewer witness interviews and side characters it is that much harder to pull off.

Edited October 14 by wknt3

[Sake614]

Color me completely stunned that they allowed Olivia to lose, even just a little bit! All the camera shots of her shaking her head, or nodding her head during the trial had me 🙄.  And when the defendant wouldn’t take the plea, and Olivia came out to tell Price that the defendant is willing to plea to man 2 with a 5 yr sentence, I was like, when did you become her attorney and perhaps it’s time to hang up your badge if you’re no longer interested in upholding the law. I mean, do the show runners really think this is making her look sympathetic? Because I certainly don’t see it. 
 

like others, I thought Tyler was stalking her and that’s how he would end up dead. In which case, she absolutely could have claimed self defense. Especially if the cops didn’t take her seriously as was indicated. Unfortunately for as far as we’ve come, there are still some cops that think women are overreacting or ‘asking for it.’