S04.E07: Valley of the Dolls

[Affogato]

Just now, peeayebee said:

Maybe Oliver and Billy had a falling-out over dating Loni Anderson. :D

Actually, I think he was just tired of hearing the same musical notes over and over again.

You mean I don't get a gazillion points for suspecting everyone?

While I can see Howard being the murderer (and everyone else, for that matter), I really hope he's not. I want him to continue on the show forever. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the trio suspect him at some point.

Yeah, I like Howard. 

[Ohiopirate02]

Another thing that cracked me up in this episode is our trio's wardrobe. Somehow both Mabel and Oliver are in what appears to be their regular clothes including PJs + robe for Oliver, but Charles is in a Can-Can hoodie and Can-Can sweatpants complete with the joint's logo spread across the butt. 

[Affogato]

47 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Another thing that cracked me up in this episode is our trio's wardrobe. Somehow both Mabel and Oliver are in what appears to be their regular clothes including PJs + robe for Oliver, but Charles is in a Can-Can hoodie and Can-Can sweatpants complete with the joint's logo spread across the butt. 

Charles may still have been avoiding his apartment. Not sure where the majority of Mabel’s stuff would be, perhaps un a storage area for Oliver or Charles apartment? 

[Ohiopirate02]

44 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Charles may still have been avoiding his apartment. Not sure where the majority of Mabel’s stuff would be, perhaps un a storage area for Oliver or Charles apartment? 

I truly do not need an explanation on this, nor do I think there's any hidden meaning other than the props department went ham on the Can-Can theme and the show loved it enough to use it all. 

ETA-that is one thing I love about this show. The whole production gives it their all. They don't stint on set design or wardrobe or lighting.

Edited October 9 by Ohiopirate02

[Affogato]

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I truly do not need an explanation on this, nor do I think there's any hidden meaning other than the props department went ham on the Can-Can theme and the show loved it enough to use it all. 

ETA-that is one thing I love about this show. The whole production gives it their all. They don't stint on set design or wardrobe or lighting.

I think it is kind of cool because really Charles wouldn’t be able to pack and the others would. It is consistent. 

[Ilovepie]

My favorite moment this episode was when Oliver and Melissa Mcarthy were behind the bar and she made him the "cocktail" of vodka and a packet of Crystal Light. I am ashamed to say I have done something similar, although I actually made the lemonade first and put the vodka in; dumping the powder straight into the vodka is hardcore! 🤣

I also loved all of the callbacks to unanswered questions going back to Season 1. I need someone to list all of the things they put on their murder board. It was so fast I couldn't catch it all!

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

My favorite moment this episode was when Oliver and Melissa Mcarthy were behind the bar and she made him the "cocktail" of vodka and a packet of Crystal Light. I am ashamed to say I have done something similar, although I actually made the lemonade first and put the vodka in; dumping the powder straight into the vodka is hardcore! 🤣

 

I am not ashamed for mixing one of those lime flavored drink packets in with my gin, but serve it over ice to water it down a bit. Doreen was mixing up ounces of room temperature vodka with that Crystal Light packet which is why Oliver grimaced after his first sip.

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Another thing that cracked me up in this episode is our trio's wardrobe. Somehow both Mabel and Oliver are in what appears to be their regular clothes including PJs + robe for Oliver, but Charles is in a Can-Can hoodie and Can-Can sweatpants complete with the joint's logo spread across the butt. 

I completely missed that! I assume since the trio hightailed it out of town that they didn't get a chance to pack, so Charles was wearing some of Big Mike's clothes? How many days did they stay at Doreen's?

[JenE4]

I thought Doreen drugged Big Mike’s pizza when Bev came in acting all crazy after going out to scavenge for driveway pizza crust, and at that point we’d yet to see Mike. But we also heard Bev drank Zac’s painkiller IV like a Capri Sun, so I think it might be a mix of Bev potentially having “a dark personality” that comes out from drinking/drugs (since she was also holding a beer)…or maybe it’s just whatsherface from SNL just way over-acting. 

I said after watching the last episode that I thought the Westies were guilty of hiding Dudenoff’s body for the rent control (and now we know SS checks), but I still maintain they’re innocent of murder. This episode had me questioning Doreen, as it sounds like listening to Charles’s podcast was the one way she felt close to him, and she’s obviously very bored and lonely. But now I have a new theory—or back to an earlier suspect from this season, actually.

i think the movie writer could have been an early fan of the podcast. I mean, he obviously is if he wrote a screenplay about them! But remember early on season 1 the few fans they had that were milling about? I could see him being an obsessive fan, helping to give the trio material for their podcast so he could then get material for his fanfiction, which ultimately became a screenplay. He’s in disguise with that fake beard. I can see it ultimately coming off and the trio suddenly recognizing him as someone was in/around the building, like a friend of Tim Kono’s, a relative of the lady who took over as building manager, a busboy at the diner across the street, etc. He doesn’t really have any motive other than helping to create a story that will ultimately turn him into a famous writer, just like Loretta wanting to be a famous actress, Glenn wanting to be a stunt man, etc. Basically like every character on this show—Cinda’s assistant killing for the podcast, the producer son killing for his production. Yeah, it’s almost too obvious following along with those motives, but why not? Heck, kill the trio during the production of your first big movie, and since the studio has lifetime rights, you’re guaranteed to get a sequel out of it!

[mledawn]

On 10/8/2024 at 5:18 PM, Chit Chat said:

I just love the opening music to this show.  This YouTube video on the making of it is pretty interesting.  I'm sure that's already been posted, but if not, enjoy!  

I really enjoy the theme song. It is one of the few shows - if not the only show - where I watch the entire opening sequence. I hadn't seen the video, thanks for sharing. 

[Chit Chat]

19 hours ago, cardigirl said:

The trio had braids. 

I missed it on the first watch, but I went back and saw it.  Good catch!!

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

On 10/8/2024 at 1:09 AM, dwmarch said:

Line of the episode goes to Mabel with her laser-guided snark "Hollywood did this to you in two weeks?"

Bev telling the actors off was also hilarious as was their non-reaction to it. Also Charles' sister asking "who the fuck is that woman?" after encountering Bev for the first time.

My favorite line was an off camera Bev Melon yelling "3 for 3 Fuckers!" after the actors analyzed her..

Definitely caught Selena breaking during Bev's kitchen scene.  At one point she is in the background and has her face turned away from the camera and you can see her shaking with laughter.

I'm glad Charles and Doreen made up.  I like that Charles isn't completely alone in the world - aside from Mabel and Oliver.

 

[cardigirl]

8 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I very much hope it's not who the article thinks it is.  No Spoilers.

What article?

[KittenPokerCheater]

27 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

What article?

It's posted on this thread.  Scroll up.  :)

[Quilt Fairy]

To be clear, that article (from the Daily Beast) only had the author's speculation.  There were NO spoilers. 

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

It's posted on this thread.  Scroll up.  :)

I think the post must have been removed. I don't see it. 

[Dixie Sugarbaker]

Could Dudenoff be the drama teacher that knocked up a young Loretta? She killed him in revenge when he did not recognize her, especially in her alt-personality as Helga, killing him in a way that made his death appear natural thereby getting her Westie buddies to help dispose of the body.  When she was hired for the musical, she ingratiated herself with Oliver to make sure her secret was safe. Loretta set off Sazz’s Spidey sense so she investigated Loretta and figured out Loretta was not what  she seemed so Loretta killed her, remembering the old boiler when she had to dispose of Sazz’s body, with the help or Charles’ old girlfriend/makeup artist who blamed Sazz for the ending of her and Charles’ romance.

Too far fetched?

[mledawn]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I think the post must have been removed. I don't see it. 

Perhaps this is the post conatining the article link?

https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/149749-s04e07-valley-of-the-dolls/?do=findComment&comment=8476305

 

[Yeah No]

16 hours ago, Affogato said:

I don’t think anyone gets points for suspecting so and so or so and so because I think there are a lot of red herrings being laid. We can be fairly sure it isn’t our podcasting trio and that is it. 
 

i feel it is like a six degrees thing where, for example, the Hollywood crowd are connected through Dudenoff and Sazz,  the stunt peole are connected through Sazz, and it is generally a very complex way to get everyone together. I suspect Sazz is the ‘Kevin Bacon’ of the group. Hence, many hams , right?( And prosciutto goes well with melon. Or is that too much?)

Howard is the building busybody. He has lost 7 cats and won’t get more at the shelter. If there were more episodes I would wonder if he would steal bodega cat. Seriously does he hate cats or does someone else hate cats?  I really think he could be involved in something, but not necessarily murder. 

And maybe that's just the point - maybe everything is a red herring and everyone is a suspect this season because there hasn't been any murder in the building, at least not yet. This entire season may be one big ruse controlled by Bev Melon to totally confound our trio (and the audience!) and she enlisted the help of the Brothers Sisters to do it. All the other sub-plots with Dudenoff, Sazz, the Westies and even Howard may be real but are still not necessarily leading to murder. Like we have suspected, maybe Dudenoff died a natural death which was covered up years ago and Sazz was a part of the ruse to fake her own death to protect herself from some real or imagined threat. OR someone faked her death for her and has her hidden away as a prisoner for now.

The way Bev Melon was acting in this episode got me a little suspicious of her and what her motives are, but like the Brothers Sisters she may be another eccentric super fan that is getting off on controlling the marionette strings of our trio and the police to solve a "murder" that never happened. I know that might be an unpopular suggestion because we have to have a murder in the building, but just like Dudenoff's "remains" suddenly became a thing in the incinerator someone else's ashes might turn up there or remains somewhere unbeknownst to anyone so far and become the murder in the building. A little late, perhaps but they can always pull a rabbit out of a hat at the last minute or someone will actually confess to it.

And as to Galifinakis' getting hit in his "fat" - despite having been in the hospital I'm still side eyeing that whole shooting. We haven't seen the stunt man since then and that's another thing I'm wondering about. The whole thing doesn't feel for real to me somehow. It's a little too convenient that Oliver didn't get hit while the other two did.

I feel like all these cameras spying on our trio and capturing everything IS the movie that Bev and the Brothers sisters are making and everyone else is acting a part in this, but maybe nothing is as it seems or is even real. The lines between reality and fiction/drama are being crossed and blurred and that's just what the theme has been all season long.

Edited October 10 by Yeah No

[cardigirl]

10 hours ago, mledawn said:

Perhaps this is the post conatining the article link?

https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/149749-s04e07-valley-of-the-dolls/?do=findComment&comment=8476305

 

Thank you, I think you're right. 

And now back to discussing the episode!  

 

I was disappointed to not see Theo this episode. He has been in every episode 7 since the first season. So maybe he won't be in this season. Sad.

[shapeshifter]

11 hours ago, Dixie Sugarbaker said:

Could Dudenoff be the drama teacher that knocked up a young Loretta? She killed him in revenge when he did not recognize her, especially in her alt-personality as Helga, killing him in a way that made his death appear natural thereby getting her Westie buddies to help dispose of the body.  When she was hired for the musical, she ingratiated herself with Oliver to make sure her secret was safe. Loretta set off Sazz’s Spidey sense so she investigated Loretta and figured out Loretta was not what  she seemed so Loretta killed her, remembering the old boiler when she had to dispose of Sazz’s body, with the help or Charles’ old girlfriend/makeup artist who blamed Sazz for the ending of her and Charles’ romance.

Too far fetched?

Ooo! Good specs!

 

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

The way Bev Melon was acting in this episode got me a little suspicious of her and what her motives are

Likewise, but also stuff about her like:

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

but like the Brothers Sisters she may be another eccentric super fan that is getting off on controlling the marionette strings of our trio and the police to solve a "murder" that never happened.

OTOH:

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I feel like all these cameras spying on our trio and capturing everything IS the movie that Bev and the Brothers sisters are making and everyone else is acting a part in this, but maybe nothing is as it seems or is even real. The lines between reality and fiction/drama are being crossed and blurred and that's just what the theme has been all season long.

Ooo. Right! Like those reality shows!

 

[Yeah No]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

Ooo. Right! Like those reality shows!

Yes, and we all know how scripted, manufactured and unreal they can be!

[cardigirl]

11 hours ago, Dixie Sugarbaker said:

Could Dudenoff be the drama teacher that knocked up a young Loretta? She killed him in revenge when he did not recognize her, especially in her alt-personality as Helga, killing him in a way that made his death appear natural thereby getting her Westie buddies to help dispose of the body.  When she was hired for the musical, she ingratiated herself with Oliver to make sure her secret was safe. Loretta set off Sazz’s Spidey sense so she investigated Loretta and figured out Loretta was not what  she seemed so Loretta killed her, remembering the old boiler when she had to dispose of Sazz’s body, with the help or Charles’ old girlfriend/makeup artist who blamed Sazz for the ending of her and Charles’ romance.

Too far fetched?

I have been suspicious of Loretta from the beginning, but in this episode she encouraged Mabel to work with the actors because actors are like detectives in that they try to figure out their characters' motivations, etc. And darned if they didn't come through for our trio.  I don't think Loretta would want to be helpful in the investigation if she were involved. (Although, Jan inserted herself into the investigation in season 1 and tried to point them toward Howard.  Hey, wait a minute ...)

I guess anything is possible with this team of writers, but I guess I'm moving Loretta to the bottom of my suspect list. For now.

[peeayebee]

11 hours ago, Dixie Sugarbaker said:

Could Dudenoff be the drama teacher that knocked up a young Loretta? She killed him in revenge when he did not recognize her, especially in her alt-personality as Helga....

I kinda like this theory. I had forgotten about Loretta having gotten pregnant, so I just read thru an Only Murders wiki. It said that a director had impregnated Loretta. I suppose it's possible, to go with your theory, that Dudenoff used to be a director. Do we know what he was before being a professor?

One thing that supports this theory is that Oliver and Loretta are now engaged. I doubt the show will add her to the show as his wife. A way out of this is for her to be the killer. Her meek-and-mild persona might just be an act -- Hey! She's actually a great actress! (meta joke) -- to cover up her malevolent personality. 

And yet, I'm vacillating. She has always come across as sweet, right? Also, when you say that Dudenoff didn't recognize her, when did that happen? Eugene Levy didn't recognize her, and that has to be significant.

[Yeah No]

17 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I guess anything is possible with this team of writers, but I guess I'm moving Loretta to the bottom of my suspect list. For now.

Yes, me too for similar reasons, but I can't help but feel that the whole plot with her and Oliver getting engaged is fraught and doomed somehow. I don't want that to happen but it would be Oliver's bad luck for it not to last. In the back of my mind I fear for her somehow, like something bad might happen to her to repeat that pattern. If she turned out to be a bad person that would also suck. I hope not and the fans would revolt because I hear the audience LOVES these two together - the actors have a great chemistry together and are beloved by many.

[Snapdragon]

I think the longevity of the Loretta/Oliver relationship depends on how many seasons they plan on the show going.  If they're only planning on four (which would mean one more to go), then the last season could center around their wedding and Meryl Streep could just cameo in an episode or two.  

I'm curious to know whether the writers planned for the note on Jan's door and Winnie's poisoning to be hanging threads for a later season or if they just decided to link the seasons due to fans pointing out the plot holes. 

Count me in with everyone who doesn't think that the Westies killed Dudenoff and are just cashing his checks after he died from natural causes (or an accident).

I'm hoping that Howard doesn't end up being the killer.  One, because I like him and two, it would make no sense.  Who else it would be though, I have no idea, since all the other residents of the building have either died or disappeared in the past few seasons.  The doorman?  He's the only one who's consistently been around.  Or Theo, I guess, but that would also be disappointing.  There's also Nathan Lane, but that also doesn't make much sense.  So yeah, I'm going the doorman, since I think he'd have access to the apartments and could have installed cameras, for whatever reason.

[kittykat]

16 hours ago, Yeah No said:

feel like all these cameras spying on our trio and capturing everything IS the movie that Bev and the Brothers sisters are making and everyone else is acting a part in this, but maybe nothing is as it seems or is even real. The lines between reality and fiction/drama are being crossed and blurred and that's just what the theme has been all season long.

That's a good theory.  I wonder if one the movie episode titles will be The Man Who Killed Don Quixote, a movie where the documentary of the making of the film was more infamous than the film itself.

Not sure I'm sold on Loretta being the killer.  Kind of repeats the whole main character love interest is the murderer and the show is pretty self referencial when they repeat plot points.   I do hope she's not the S5 victim.

[Quilt Fairy]

I'm debating how much weight to give to the fact that Eugene Levy didn't recognize Loretta from 30-40 years ago in a provincial theater somewhere in Canada.  It seems like it could be significant, but last season we got a detailed backstory on Loretta.  The idea that Loretta might not be who she claims to be seems unrealistic in light of that.  It's also very reminiscent of Poppy's story in season 2. 

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

I'm hoping that Howard doesn't end up being the killer.  One, because I like him and two, it would make no sense.  Who else it would be though, I have no idea, since all the other residents of the building have either died or disappeared in the past few seasons.  The doorman?  He's the only one who's consistently been around.  Or Theo, I guess, but that would also be disappointing.  There's also Nathan Lane, but that also doesn't make much sense.  So yeah, I'm going the doorman, since I think he'd have access to the apartments and could have installed cameras, for whatever reason.

There's also Uma, maybe she klepto'ed something that she shouldn't have.

[shapeshifter]

56 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

There's also Uma, maybe she klepto'ed something that she shouldn't have.

Uma's anger at the attention the Murders In The Building podcasts bring could be motivated by her need to hide her own killing(s).

But if Uma did shoot Sazz, who moved the body?

[cardigirl]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Uma's anger at the attention the Murders In The Building podcasts bring could be motivated by her need to hide her own killing(s).

But if Uma did shoot Sazz, who moved the body?

Complaining about security cameras being installed makes her look suspicious, and she has always hated the trio, her first appearance in the show she's flipping the bird at Charles. While I think a lot is going on with her, I don't see her as Sazz's killer, but I do see her as putting the note on Oliver's door. Not sure if I like her for poisoning Winnie though. I also don't know if she would be able to get cameras installed in their apartments. We know the Brothers Sisters installed some, but someone else did too.  Who has easy access to all of the apartments? Oscar's father (not seen since season 1). The doorman. Anyone who knows about the secret passageways.

Another unanswered question from Season 1 was the enormous diamond ring that Tim Kono had shipped to himself, that Charles and Mabel took out of Bunny's apartment. It was never explained who Tim got that for. I know he was buying jewelry to find the ring that Zoe was wearing the night she died, so he could prove Oscar's innocence. But that ring seemed like a separate thing. Could be nothing.

#Fridaymorningramblings

[Affogato]

I have suggested Uma, but as someone mentioned upthread, there are relatively few building residents we know well enough to suspect. I think she has become, mist have become, lonely and embittered. She seems like all of the shenanigans would just irritate her, westies, howard and his animals, our three, mabel somehow not going away when she isn’t living there. Pigs and police, for gods sake. Theater people. 

12 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

There's also Uma, maybe she klepto'ed something that she shouldn't have.

It is possible she also saves the day in some way. Finds and unties someone, something. 
 

i like the idea that some questions will be answered but that maybe there is another murder at the end of the season. I hope Oscar gets some happiness, at least ling distanve, though bit will be heartbreaking if Loretta is the killer or dies. 
 

 

[chediavolo]

This was a nice change of scenery. I love Melissa McCarthy but that was the worst! LI accent I have ever heard. Was she even coached on how it should sound? I mean, she had the master of accents right there, Meryl Streep!😄

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, chediavolo said:

This was a nice change of scenery. I love Melissa McCarthy but that was the worst! LI accent I have ever heard. Was she even coached on how it should sound? I mean, she had the master of accents right there, Meryl Streep!😄

Haha, yeah that was bugging me the whole time. They should have made her watch episodes of "Long Island Medium", LOL. 😄 She did sell the character pretty well, though!

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Haha, yeah that was bugging me the whole time. They should have made her watch episodes of "Long Island Medium", LOL. 😄 She did sell the character pretty well, though!

I didn't *really* notice the in-and-out accent because the acting was terrific.

6 hours ago, chediavolo said:

This was a nice change of scenery. I love Melissa McCarthy but that was the worst! LI accent I have ever heard. Was she even coached on how it should sound? I mean, she had the master of accents right there, Meryl Streep!😄

Maybe McCarthy sort of deliberately didn't try too hard on the accent because she was in the presence of Streep, The Wonderful Accent Actor? 

[peeayebee]

Melissa and Paul Rudd went to the same dialect coach.

[Realitystarr]

I'm thinking Howard is the killer, anyone else?

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Realitystarr said:

I'm thinking Howard is the killer, anyone else?

Several of us have mentioned him as a possible suspect going back weeks now, although one no one really likes considering.

[MerBearHou]

That Meryl / Melissa fight was one for the ages.  I read a good article where they both read what was choreographed for them by the writers and stunt people, and they essentially said “let us have a go at it”.  And my gosh, they sure did.  Meryl was confident that she physically could handle it which I love.

I’ve been a Melissa McCarthy fan since her Sookie days on Gilmore Girls and adored her quirky, no vanity talent.  But she can and has veered into Will Ferrell-land when she is allowed to ad lib too much and it weakens the script and the story.  She’s especially bad at this when her husband Ben is involved in something as a director or co-star (Bridesmaids was the exception).  It takes a strong director to keep Melissa in the lanes and when she respects the script and does her marvelous character thing — wigs and accents and all — she’s magic.  And I suspect that with the caliber of the other actors on this show, Melissa felt that importance of not veering off.  

 

[Affogato]

Gravey would know how to dispose of a body….

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 10/8/2024 at 1:37 AM, Irlandesa said:

This is random but speaking of Howard, does he still have his boyfriend?

Does the Detective still have her wife (hopefully she still has her baby)?  She repeatedly made comments about how sexy Jonk and Galifianakis were - two very different types of men!  (Yes, she could be bi-but it seems strange after initially seeming to establish her as a happily married lesbian.

On 10/10/2024 at 1:09 AM, Yeah No said:

I feel like all these cameras spying on our trio and capturing everything IS the movie that Bev and the Brothers sisters are making and everyone else is acting a part in this, but maybe nothing is as it seems or is even real. The lines between reality and fiction/drama are being crossed and blurred and that's just what the theme has been all season long.

I agree; I don't think a movie based on a script will ever be made. But that's not something that Bev Melon or the actors know at this point.  They think that a conventional movie will be shot, but it will wind up being cancelled, as Bev is constantly fearing. We are watching bits and pieces of the eventual movie that will be made from the different cameras filming everything at some point after the case is solved.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Does the Detective still have her wife (hopefully she still has her baby)?  She repeatedly made comments about how sexy Jonk and Galifianakis were - two very different types of men! 

She said Zach was her "hall pass" which seems to indicate that she's still partnered. 

[Zaffy]

Next season I hope there are no more ultra famous people as special guest stars.
Only the Arconia residents and new and relatively unknown actors.
This is just too  much. And I love Melissa. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Zaffy said:

Next season I hope there are no more ultra famous people as special guest stars.
Only the Arconia residents and new and relatively unknown actors.
This is just too  much. And I love Melissa. 

So you'd be okay with another visit to/from Charles' sister, right?

But I suspect OMITB's street cred among A-list actors is still hot, especially with Streep in the mix.

[Zaffy]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So you'd be okay with another visit to/from Charles' sister, right?

But I suspect OMITB's street cred among A-list actors is still hot, especially with Streep in the mix.

Nope. As much I like her, I found her character insufferable.
It is like they are trying too much to have all this over the top characters. Over the top cast, directors, producers, neighbors, relatives... 
Quantity usually doesn't equal quality...