S02.E07: The Red Sowing

[SeanC]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think it was Larys' vengeance to keep information from Aemond.  

That might be Larys' motivation, but Lord Wylde was clearly worried about the reception his information might receive. 

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

No, if someone is preying on people's desperation without giving them adequate warning of what probably will happen, that's on them, too.  Rhaenyra didn't give a shit that most of these bastards were going to die and didn't adequate prepare them precisely because they were lowborn.  Had they been members of even small houses, she'd have done more.  And she certainly wouldn't have had her guards blocking their only route of escape.

Not that I think Rhaenyra is over-concerned about the smallfolk, but she didn't know that most of them were going to die; for all she knew, the first or second guy up might succeed.

[Stardancer Supreme]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If that was an ambush plan by Rhaenyra at the end without her being on her dragon, she's an idiot. That scene could've really turned out badly if Aemond was a crazy as everybody thinks he is. I believe Ulf lacks experience, so Silverwing basically went wherever she wanted to go.

It wasn't a plan; Ulf went deeper in the Dragonpit to escape Vermithor's carnage. In stumbling onto Silverwing napping, he was immediately stunned to not die by dragon. Ulf didn't even have a saddle; he was hanging onto Silverwing's back!  Rhaenyrs was probably occupied with Vermithor and Hugh and then noticed a dragon leaving the caverns. Silverwing reacted the same way Vhagar did when Aemond was claimed; immediate joyride hoping their new rider doesn't fall off.

[baldryanr]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not that I think Rhaenyra is over-concerned about the smallfolk, but she didn't know that most of them were going to die; for all she knew, the first or second guy up might succeed.

She JUST saw Seasmoke roast a potential dragonrider (along with the poor person standing next to him), and that was with the dragonkeepers there to try and keep him calm.  Plus as we have been constantly reminded of, even someone with a strong Targ bloodline (Rhaena) was almost killed trying to do this.  She had to have known a roasting was a strong possibility or she's a moron. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 minute ago, baldryanr said:

She had to have known a roasting was a strong possibility or she's a moron. 

We have known that she is a moron ever since her since jaunt to King's Landing to talk to Alicent, so I would say the characterization is consistent, if probably unintentional. ;)

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Unprovoked? Killing traitors is very much within the purview of feudal lords. Of course, everyone is a traitor to somebody in civil war but that's exactly why it's easier to get away with all sorts of atrocities once such a war has broken out. The Greens use the "Bend the knee or die" method, albeit without dragons and no one thinks that this is beyond the pale. If Daemon had burned "just" a few, chances are the rest would have bent the knee anyway because they were going for a power play and weren't some Green fanatics daring him to kill them. Of course, this would have required Daemon to have the first clue about politics or reading people... :)

And why are the river lords more trustworthy now when they have just proven that they enjoy disobeying their king (consort) and blackmailing him to do stuff? For all Daemon knows, they might switch sides the next time they disapprove of his ideas and considering his track record in gaining followers, this will probably be pretty soon.

There is a difference between "We will never follow you, never yield, long live your enemy!" (which is where the people Team Green has attacked were) and where the Riverlords were. 

Most of the Riverlords were undeclared in Team Black vs. Team Green. Some had sided with Team Black, a few had sided with Team Green, most were undecided. Some had said that they wouldn't follow Team Black if Team Black proved itself run by a tyrant by condoning atrocities.

If Daemon had burned just a few of the Riverlords to show that he was serious, chances are that move would have backfired and the remaining Riverlords would at best obey passive-aggressively or more likely actively rebel and send word that Daemon burned nobles largely on a whim.

The Riverlords aren't "more" trustworthy now than before. They have been depicted/are being depicted as generally keeping their oaths. Hell, even Walder Frey, king of the oathbreakers, could rationalize his actions as justified because Robb broke his oath first.

Yes, the current Riverlords could forswear their oaths at any time hypothetically, but there's no particular reason to think that they will break their oath to Lord Oscar, who has agreed to follow Daemon. 

[paigow]

6 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

She just wants to lay on a beach drinking pina coladas.

If by pina colada, you mean buckets of blood...

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

She JUST saw Seasmoke roast a potential dragonrider (along with the poor person standing next to him), and that was with the dragonkeepers there to try and keep him calm.  Plus as we have been constantly reminded of, even someone with a strong Targ bloodline (Rhaena) was almost killed trying to do this.  She had to have known a roasting was a strong possibility or she's a moron. 

I suppose she could have thought that Verm would have been willing/able to pick one person out of the crowd to be their rider and leave the rest mostly alone. Naive, maybe, but not exactly stupid.

[Jack Shaftoe]

23 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Most of the Riverlords were undeclared in Team Black vs. Team Green.

If they refuse to obey Daemon they automatically become declared, that's the cool thing about civil wars if you are itching to commit some atrocities (assuming Daemon is recognized as Rhaenyra's representative, of course). Being undeclared is no protection, otherwise most lords would have remained undeclared throughout and let those inbred idiots fight it out.

Edited July 29 by Jack Shaftoe

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Oscar and the Riverlords (whose new album is due to drop next Autumn, btw)

Somebody out there needs to make this happen.

[Stardancer Supreme]

52 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not that I think Rhaenyra is over-concerned about the smallfolk, but she didn't know that most of them were going to die; for all she knew, the first or second guy up might succeed.

 

34 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

She JUST saw Seasmoke roast a potential dragonrider (along with the poor person standing next to him), and that was with the dragonkeepers there to try and keep him calm.  Plus as we have been constantly reminded of, even someone with a strong Targ bloodline (Rhaena) was almost killed trying to do this.  She had to have known a roasting was a strong possibility or she's a moron. 

I think that at this point, Rhaenyra is just basking in shellshock by watching dragons be dragons. She is so stuck on trying to have a bloodless war plus trying not to kill anyone needlessly and she just cannot compute why the roasting of people keeps happening in her Dragonpit.  I think Emma D'Arcy needs to see how their face really looks after a scene is shot to see if that is what they wanted to come across in these scenes.

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Nobody forced these people to sign up for this. Word spread that Rhaenyra was offering up the chance to claim a dragon to any Targaryen bastards. If you're dumb/brave/desperate enough to try it, that's on you.

I don’t think they had any real concept of what they were signing up for. These are people that don’t know much about dragons except that dragons are dangerous to people who aren’t Targaryens.

If they were given a full description of just how wrong this could go or just how unpredictable dragons could be when trying to claim one, and they still sign up for it… cool. I would agree with you.

Instead, they signed up for something they were pretty ignorant about and weren’t probably informed once they got to Dragonstone. Again, these people had no real concept of what they were signing up for. These are a group of people that know nothing about dragons. These are a group of people that have been fed propaganda about dragons being gods their entire lives. They don’t know shit.

Ultimately, when they tried to leave (which tells me some minds were changed), Rhaenyra’s guards blocked them. Rhaenyra was desperate to the point where she wouldn’t even let them leave. Why not let the people who no longer wanted to be there leave? At the point where Rhaenyra is not letting them leave, is it still on them? IMO, no. 

I would definitely not be #TeamBlack if she blocked people from leaving and willingly let them die when they didn’t have to.

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I would definitely not be #TeamBlack if she blocked people from leaving and willingly let them die when they didn’t have to.

Any survivors would tell their friends... Dragon food is people

 

Edited July 29 by paigow

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Well, it's a dragon. A giant, fire-breathing dragon. You had to have had at least an inkling you might get roasted.

If they actually believed they were of Targaryen descent, they might not have that inkling considering that all of the prominent Targaryens have not been roasted.

Aegon the Usurper has a dragon and he's not roasted. Aemond has a dragon and he's not roasted. Rhaenys had a dragon and she wasn't roasted. Jahaerys had a dragon and he wasn't roasted (if they were old enough to remember Jahaerys). Rhaenyra's sons have dragons and they weren't roasted. I could go on obviously. There is no example they can point to where a Targaryen gets roasted when attempting to claim a dragon.

If they actually believed they had Targaryen ancestry, they might think otherwise based on the examples they know about.

Edited July 29 by AntFTW

[bluvelvet]

9 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

If they actually believed they were of Targaryen descent, they might not have that inkling considering that all of the prominent Targaryens have not been roasted.

Aegon the Usurper has a dragon and he's not roasted. Aemond has a dragon and he's not roasted. Rhaenys had a dragon and she wasn't roasted. Jahaerys had a dragon and he wasn't roasted (if they were old enough to remember Jahaerys). Rhaenyra's sons have dragons and they weren't roasted. I could go on obviously. There is no example they can point to where a Targaryen gets roasted when attempting to claiming a dragon.

If they actually believed they had Targaryen ancestry, they might think otherwise based on the examples they know about.

Interestingly along these lines, I wonder if the dragons know if someone has royal blood. We’ve seen what happens when the dragons don’t like their would be claimant. They roast them lol. And we have heard that Rhaena tried and failed they said she almost got eaten but Rhaena doesn’t seem worse for wear and is running to try and claim another dragon.  Also when Daemon went in search of Vermithor in S1 and young Aemond came across Dreamfyre, in both of those instances the dragons just blew fire into the air instead of roasting Daemon/Aemond. 

[paigow]

Any candidate still alive should get hired as dragon zoo keeper

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Ulf didn't even have a saddle; he was hanging onto Silverwing's back! 

He looked like he was holding on to a saddle. Two wooden sticks. I don't think those saddles come on and off like a horse. 

 

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

had to have known a roasting was a strong possibility or she's a moron. 

She's not stupid. She just needs riders and is willing to let a lot of people die to find them. I vaguely prefer her as a leader but she's not especially kind or good. Remember how she killed that boar to survive? And lied to her close friend about having sexual relations,  and lied to the realm boldly about her sons? She's a survivor. And if she needs to kill 100 people to find 2 riders, she will. Just like Christian Cole killed 100s of soldiers with his trap. 

33 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Also when Daemon went in search of Vermithor in S1 and young Aemond came across Dreamfyre, in both of those instances the dragons just blew fire into the air instead of roasting Daemon/Aemond. 

I think they knew what to do as well. Knew how to run or where to duck and I assume dragon keepers were there for the kids. Daemon probably did what Rhaenyra did--called the dragon but didn't try to claim.

[TidalCreek]

During the Vermithor auditions, I kept thinking about the meme: "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons ... for you are crunchy and good with ketchup." Heh.

When Oscar Tully walked into the godswood and turned around to talk to his contingent, his outfit (not quite armor or chainmail, what's the term I'm looking for?) reminded me of the Blackfish -- who'd be one of his descendants, right? It had those fishscale-looking pieces up around his shoulders. Then after that moment of recognition, I swear he started to look and sound like the Blackfish. Anyone else notice? Or just me wanting it to be so? (I loved the Blackfish.)

 

[Stardancer Supreme]

43 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

He looked like he was holding on to a saddle. Two wooden sticks. I don't think those saddles come on and off like a horse.

Upon rewatch, I did see a saddle on Silverwing! And yes, the dragonriders do have saddles that come on and off. That's part of the duties of the dragon keepers. Now, having seen the saddle when Silverwing woke up from her nap (Did Ulf step on a live dragon egg or a dead one?), am I to understand that that saddle from her previous rider was never removed? Damn, can you imagine not allowing the keepers to remove the saddle of your dead rider...

[scarynikki12]

Back from vacation let’s do this.

Oscar The Lord getting in Daemon’s face is great. I think Daemon wanted to adopt him in that moment.

I hope Oscar names his children Birdie, Hooper, and Cookie.

Aegon is a great demonstration of being able to feel bad for someone while finding them repulsive. Love ya Tom.

My opinion has always been the dragons are the ones who choose their riders for their own reasons and the Targs just did a mix of really good propaganda and then falling for their own BS.

Put Rhaenyra’s handmaiden on her council and this war ends tomorrow. She’s getting shit done and in record time.

I know she was in a lake but it would’ve been funny if a shark had eaten Alicent as she floated on the water.

Vermithor came out of the shadows like a badass. And then killed a bunch of people. And then found his new human. Guy went from badass to terrifying to cuddly doggy in a few minutes. Dragons are wild.

Ulf stepped on (I think) a dragon egg and didn’t get burned? Silverwing must’ve really missed having a human.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

She JUST saw Seasmoke roast a potential dragonrider (along with the poor person standing next to him), and that was with the dragonkeepers there to try and keep him calm.  Plus as we have been constantly reminded of, even someone with a strong Targ bloodline (Rhaena) was almost killed trying to do this.  She had to have known a roasting was a strong possibility or she's a moron. 

 

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don’t think they had any real concept of what they were signing up for. These are people that don’t know much about dragons except that dragons are dangerous to people who aren’t Targaryens.

If they were given a full description of just how wrong this could go or just how unpredictable dragons could be when trying to claim one, and they still sign up for it… cool. I would agree with you.

Instead, they signed up for something they were pretty ignorant about and weren’t probably informed once they got to Dragonstone. Again, these people had no real concept of what they were signing up for. These are a group of people that know nothing about dragons. These are a group of people that have been fed propaganda about dragons being gods their entire lives. They don’t know shit.

 

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

If they actually believed they were of Targaryen descent, they might not have that inkling considering that all of the prominent Targaryens have not been roasted.

I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around any of these people not understanding that they're risking death by getting near a dragon, much less trying to claim one. Or thinking their Targ blood will protect them for some reason. How could they be confident at all that the giant fire-breathing maneating monster they were volunteering to get close to wouldn't breath fire on them and eat them? It's pretty much all they do. 

The point of the whole test as presented was that these people thought so little of their lives they were willing to risk them for a chance to win the dragon lottery. The two guys we know both seemed to know how dangerous this was. 

Of course Rhaenyra knew people were going to get roasted in some fashion, even if she couldn't predict the dragon going after the whole room the way he did. But I don't think she would have saved any lives by testing people in private to be burned one by one. 

Nothing about this makes Rhaenyra seem stupid to me. Ruthless and having a noble person's attitude about smallfolk being red shirts, but not stupid, since she got exactly what she was after in an efficient manner and predictable casualties. A lot of those smallfolk will never come home, and everyone will know they died by dragon. Two flew out with dragons. Those who escaped will run home traumatized and singed with tales of how fucking terrifying those things are, and so how awe-inspiring and god-like people like Rhaenyra must be for being able to ride them.

[AntFTW]

My prediction is that the Greens will eventually recruit the Triarchy to their side. Aemond mentioned using the Triarchy in a previous episode to break the blockade.

Up until now, all of the players on the board have been sticking by the rules of seeking the aid of the Great Houses of the seven kingdoms. There has been a "normal order" or a convention that no one has broken. Rhaenyra seeks out the help of the lowborn to ride dragons to serve her cause, which seems to be outside of that normal order... or rather it's unconventional.

That gives a type of permission for the Greens to be unconventional as well and enlist the help of the Triarchy.

Not sure why those two things connected in my brain... but here we are.

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around any of these people not understanding that they're risking death by getting near a dragon, much less trying to claim one.

There is a risk of death, yes. I think they are aware that they could die. I don't think they were aware of how likely that would be. I don't think they knew enough to measure the risk of death. They don't know enough to mitigate that risk.

The Targaryens are educated on dragons from the time they are born. They are taught how to mitigate the risk of harm or death with a dragon. They are taught about the unpredictable nature and danger of a dragon. They are taught how to approach a dragon; how to appear less threatening to a dragon; why you shouldn't panic and/or flee; and so on. Maybe, they are taught the signs of a dragon's rejection. They take the risk of claiming a dragon with all the knowledge of dragons that has been acquired over the generations.

The lowborn Targs don't have that. I assume that knowledge is why Rhaena survived and that lack of knowledge is why most of these lowborn Targaryens didn't.

Overall, yes, there is a risk of a death. To compare - Rhaenyra and Daemon, being knowledgeable of dragons and experienced dragonriders, has less risk of death being around Vermithor than the lowborn who know nothing about dragons. Rhaenyra and Daemon can more accurately judge when to step back before Vermithor starts spitting fire versus the lowborn who wouldn't know that. Daemon and Rhaenyra enters the Dragonmont to come face-to-face with Vermithor exercising their own judgment that they could, with a reasonable degree of confidence, come out of that encounter alive. That's the kind of judgment that "the seeds" don't quite have because they don't know enough about what they're walking into.

In other words, they may have gone into this thinking there was a 50% chance of death when it was more like 99.99% if they had more knowledge about the nature of dragons. If they thought their chance of death was 99.99%, would they have still gone? Maybe not.

Edited July 30 by AntFTW

[aghst]

That's what it looked like, Alicent went camping after being abandoned by Amond.  That old knight was all, "when can we go back to the city?"

So Larys is trying to speed up Agon's rehab to do what, challenge Aemond, the guy who disfigured him?

Even when healthy Agon was probably no match for Amond, even before Vhagar.  But Larys told Agon in the last episode that people will underestimate him because of his disability.  So Agon may become some devious and more ruthless villain?

Raynera now has more power or dragons.  But Team Green isn't giving up because of the deterrence factor.  Otherwise, they could wrap up this series in a couple more episodes if there isn't going to be a war.

So now bastards have 3 dragons.  Bastards were a force in GoT too so maybe all this stuff about noble houses and being high-born is all a bit overrated.

It makes sense that kings and princes take advantage of privilege and go around fathering bastards all over the realm.  Why is it that Westeros had this thing about lineage and monogamy?  Why wasn't there more like the Dothraki, which had harems with princes and kings recognized as having dozens of heirs by dozen mothers?

 

 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

That gives a type of permission for the Greens to be unconventional as well and enlist the help of the Triarchy.

Aemond: We share a common enemy. The Sea Snake. Join us so we can kill him.

Triarchy Boss: How many dragons have you?

Aemond: 2 or 3

Triarchy Boss: Call me when you have 5

[steph369]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:23 PM, peridot said:

I loved the scenes with Lord Tully.  I kept laughing at his contempt of Daemon.

Poor Daemon internally fuming but not able to act on it because he needs the Tully men. What a great little actor playing Oscar Tully. I haven’t seen him before. It was odd hearing such a deep voice on a young body. Either he’s older than he looks or his voice changed really early. 😉

 

[DigitalCount]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

So Larys is trying to speed up Agon's rehab to do what, challenge Aemond, the guy who disfigured him?

Even when healthy Agon was probably no match for Amond, even before Vhagar.  But Larys told Agon in the last episode that people will underestimate him because of his disability.  So Agon may become some devious and more ruthless villain?

The thing is, Aegon doesn't really have to challenge Aemond in hand to hand. As Alicent once said about him with regard to Rhaenyra, Aegon's mere existence is his strongest challenge. As soon as he's well enough to sit the throne, he is the king. Aemond is merely the Prince Regent because Aegon is unable to get out of bed for long periods of time, though theoretically he could probably hold council in his room if he so desired. Now, obviously once someone takes power it's hard to get them to relinquish it, but that's a different issue. But if Aegon is well, he has the legitimacy of being the king on his side against Aemond.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I keep wondering if the writers are trying to depict Rhaenyra, Daemon, Viserys and well, everybody of importance really, as terrible leaders on purpose or they are just bad at writing politics and especially political intrigue. I am leaning towards the latter option because they still have Rhaenyra speechifying about bloodless victories and no one gainsaying her. 

 

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But from what we've shown so far, what is required to claim a dragon is not always boldness or intelligence. Indeed, sometimes/most times it's the dragon that claims the rider. Seasmoke claimed Addam, not the other way around. And Silverwing claimed Ulf not because Ulf was the least bit bold or bright...he even seemed to step on one of her eggs.

I was calling Aemond foolish for considering making a deal with pirates because a) pirates in general are not trustworthy folk b) these particular pirates are, as the council members pointed out, are likely to backstab and be a difficult problem even if they accomplish their task but most importantly c) Aemond has a ready and available alternative to turning to the pirates -- hopping on Vhagar and burninating the heck out of the blockade either as a one time thing or in a series of hit-and-run tactics.

I agree that Rhae isn't thinking through the potential consequences of giving the keys to dragons to randos. It would be fairly easy for a traitor to kill Rhae or defect to Team Black or fly the f--- off to Essos with their dragon or do any number of other things.

Rhae may or may not be insulated from the consequences of her decisions here by plot armor or luck or by the fact that the dragonriders only have the illusion of mastery over their dragons, and presumably these noob half-bloods have less mastery than the rest of Team Black.

I would imagine it's inevitable that either Hugh or Ulf turns traitor/rogue.

[I listened to the audiobook ages ago and honestly can't remember what may have happened in it vis a vis that point, plus it is possible that the HOTD writers go in a different direction. Also it should be pointed out that the book was replete with its conceit of being a scholar's account that pulled from different historical sources, so it would often say "The sources differ as to this point. One person says X happened. But another says Y. A third says Z, then X."] 

But in any case, Rhae's stupidity here in trusting the Targaryen is more condonable than Aemond's for a few reasons (which of course doesn't necessarily make it right or not stupid).

First, there is nothing inherent in being a bastard or a poor person that makes someone untrustworthy the way that being a pirate is by definition.

Second and most importantly, Rhae does not have other viable and obvious options to achieve her goals of a) retaining her crown and b) minimizing bloodshed. She might be naive in thinking that Team Green will surrender once they know the dragon score is 7 (Syrax, Caraxes, Vermax, Moondancer, Seasmoke, Verimthor, and Silverwing)  to 4  (or more like 1.6 since Sunfyre is dead/down, Daerion's dragon has just taken wing as of this episode, and Dreamfyre is unlikely to be a battle asset) in favor of Team Black.  But she has no army and cannot hold territory without a dragon advantage. But even if that advantage doesn't result in a quick Team Black win (and I don't think it's a spoiler alert to say it won't) she's not stupid for thinking that it will, or at a minimum if it doesn't, they should be able to press that advantage to off Vhagar, the only truly battle-ready dragon Team Green has.

- -

I don't know if Rhae is going to ultimately be betrayed by Myseria (this being the GOT universe, there's a good chance of it), but so far, every bit of advice Myseria has given was pretty successful. For now, I think the only way she will be getting screwed by Myseria is in the fun between-the-sheets way.

- -

Oscar and the Riverlords (whose new album is due to drop next Autumn, btw) aren't randos. They are pretty important people to the Team Black strategy of taking back King's Landing. You can't just burninate King's Landing without doing massive damage to both your future seat of power and to the smallfolk you hope to rule. So you need foot soldiers. The only ones aligned to Team Black are in the North and the Vale. The Vale's support has not yet seen them put soldiers on the march. Presumably, the Starks have called their banners because they're as good as their word. But to get to King's Landing, the Northern soldiers will have to go through the Riverlands. So getting the Riverlands on their side is crucial. Daemon has been exposed as harmless in the short term because he's not willing to just burn or otherwise kill lords of the lesser houses until he gets one to bend the knee. So coming to Harrenhal posed little risk for the Riverlords. As impulsive and crazy as Daemon might be, if he changed his mind and burninated the Riverlords, none of the heirs would follow him or Rhae, or at least, they could be trusted to backstab in favor of Team Green at the soonest opportunity. Indeed, such an unprovoked act would probably be spun by Team Green and lose Team Black the support of the Starks and the Vale. If Rhae permitted Daemon to commit such an atrocious act, or worse, can't keep him in line, how could anyone want her for queen?

Even for Westeros, brutality has limits. We have seen murdering babies is still considered vile. Killing kin, the same. And apparently the person who was Team Black exceeded them. Keep in mind: the land has been peaceful for centuries. So this is a Westeros that is largely a stranger to the atrocities that come with all-out war. 

The way the feudal system works is that they hypothetically owe allegiance both to the Crown and to the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. So it's not really a question of "Do we back Oscar or do we back Rhae/Dae?" There's no question that they owe Oliver their allegiance. The question is: are they going to follow Oscar's decision as to which is the true ruler of Westeros or not? It would be conceivable for Oscar to have said, "I side with King Aegon because he's got a pee-pee" or "I side with King Aegon because he promised that I would marry his daughter when he comes of age" or "I side with King Aegon because Daemon is a dirtbag who caused atrocities to be committed by his minion and that's a foreshadowing of life under Queen Rhae" or "Imma pull a Frey and stay neutral" or a number of other things. 

Oscar managed to come to the best course: assert why the Riverlords should follow Rhae/Dae despite how distasteful Dae is and put Dae in his place. 

Also, even if it were a question of Oscar vs. Daemon, it seems you have answered why it would probably be better to side with the untested insider from the Riverlands who knows the local ways and abides by them than the known crazy outsider who has set in motion a number of atrocities and is just as likely to burn you to death or slice your head off with a Valaryian steel sword as he is to say hello to you. 

- -

I would quibble with your analogy. Daemon doesn't have a short stack. He's got a dragon, personal riches, etc. He's pretty much the chip leader in this situation. As much as he might want to, there's no reason for him to deploy his chips or to call when he knows a) his opponents have a 100 percent read on him and b) he has no read on his opponents.

I was really impressed how Oscar Tully handled the situation. It's obvious he has followed closely his grandfather's action and learned from them. Like Alys said to Daemon, Tully isn't the strongest family (i.e. they can't force others to do what they want), but others have always followed them voluntarily. On the basis of the this scene, I think the reason is that the they, and now Oscar, have an ability to find a solution that is could be accepted by all because it follows their morality and common sense. 

Oscar is the only one who in the show had shown leadership qualities.        

   

Edited July 30 by Roseanna
it was twice - I took second away

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Unprovoked? Killing traitors is very much within the purview of feudal lords. Of course, everyone is a traitor to somebody in civil war but that's exactly why it's easier to get away with all sorts of atrocities once such a war has broken out. The Greens use the "Bend the knee or die" method, albeit without dragons and no one thinks that this is beyond the pale. If Daemon had burned "just" a few, chances are the rest would have bent the knee anyway because they were going for a power play and weren't some Green fanatics daring him to kill them. Of course, this would have required Daemon to have the first clue about politics or reading people... :)

And why are the river lords more trustworthy now when they have just proven that they enjoy disobeying their king (consort) and blackmailing him to do stuff? For all Daemon knows, they might switch sides the next time they disapprove of his ideas and considering his track record in gaining followers, this will probably be pretty soon.

 

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is a difference between "We will never follow you, never yield, long live your enemy!" (which is where the people Team Green has attacked were) and where the Riverlords were. 

Most of the Riverlords were undeclared in Team Black vs. Team Green. Some had sided with Team Black, a few had sided with Team Green, most were undecided. Some had said that they wouldn't follow Team Black if Team Black proved itself run by a tyrant by condoning atrocities.

If Daemon had burned just a few of the Riverlords to show that he was serious, chances are that move would have backfired and the remaining Riverlords would at best obey passive-aggressively or more likely actively rebel and send word that Daemon burned nobles largely on a whim.

The Riverlords aren't "more" trustworthy now than before. They have been depicted/are being depicted as generally keeping their oaths. Hell, even Walder Frey, king of the oathbreakers, could rationalize his actions as justified because Robb broke his oath first.

Yes, the current Riverlords could forswear their oaths at any time hypothetically, but there's no particular reason to think that they will break their oath to Lord Oscar, who has agreed to follow Daemon. 

I agree with Chicago Rivershirt. 

In real history, the feudal system was due to the weakness of the central power. If the king wanted to go to war, he sent the word to his vassals who then gathered their soldiers. In this alt-world, there are dragons, but otherwise it's of the same kind.  

Also, the feudal system was based on the two-sided agreement: not only vassals have duties, but their lord also had. He must use his power justly. If he didn't, the lords could force him even to abandon his favorite, give him a death sentence or simply kill him without punishment. 

Most of all, the ruler just can't make a lord to obey with force, as Daemon thinks. There is an elemental difference if a lord want to fight or not - in the latter case his army f.ex. can arrive "late" and wait until the struggle's decisive time and then decide which side to help. 

Justice in the medieval times didn't always mean punishment. There was also a possibility of mercy. Many traitors were given mercy by the king in the cases he thought they had learned their lessons and/or he evaluated the solution more useful to himself (i.e. he badly needed their resources).

On the basis of our information about Riverlords, they will keep their oaths - provided they are treated with justice and on the basis of their own traditional habits. Oscar Tully knows it.  

[Oscirus]

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I was calling Aemond foolish for considering making a deal with pirates because a) pirates in general are not trustworthy folk b) these particular pirates are, as the council members pointed out, are likely to backstab and be a difficult problem even if they accomplish their task but most importantly c) Aemond has a ready and available alternative to turning to the pirates -- hopping on Vhagar and burninating the heck out of the blockade either as a one time thing or in a series of hit-and-run tactics.

I agree that Rhae isn't thinking through the potential consequences of giving the keys to dragons to randos. It would be fairly easy for a traitor to kill Rhae or defect to Team Black or fly the f--- off to Essos with their dragon or do any number of other things.

Rhae may or may not be insulated from the consequences of her decisions here by plot armor or luck or by the fact that the dragonriders only have the illusion of mastery over their dragons, and presumably these noob half-bloods have less mastery than the rest of Team Black.

I would imagine it's inevitable that either Hugh or Ulf turns traitor/rogue.

[I listened to the audiobook ages ago and honestly can't remember what may have happened in it vis a vis that point, plus it is possible that the HOTD writers go in a different direction. Also it should be pointed out that the book was replete with its conceit of being a scholar's account that pulled from different historical sources, so it would often say "The sources differ as to this point. One person says X happened. But another says Y. A third says Z, then X."] 

But in any case, Rhae's stupidity here in trusting the Targaryen is more condonable than Aemond's for a few reasons (which of course doesn't necessarily make it right or not stupid).

First, there is nothing inherent in being a bastard or a poor person that makes someone untrustworthy the way that being a pirate is by definition.

Second and most importantly, Rhae does not have other viable and obvious options to achieve her goals of a) retaining her crown and b) minimizing bloodshed. She might be naive in thinking that Team Green will surrender once they know the dragon score is 7 (Syrax, Caraxes, Vermax, Moondancer, Seasmoke, Verimthor, and Silverwing)  to 4  (or more like 1.6 since Sunfyre is dead/down, Daerion's dragon has just taken wing as of this episode, and Dreamfyre is unlikely to be a battle asset) in favor of Team Black.  But she has no army and cannot hold territory without a dragon advantage. But even if that advantage doesn't result in a quick Team Black win (and I don't think it's a spoiler alert to say it won't) she's not stupid for thinking that it will, or at a minimum if it doesn't, they should be able to press that advantage to off Vhagar, the only truly battle-ready dragon Team Green has.

 

 

Id argue that Rhaenyra's decision is much worse.

1. Vhagar can't be in all places simultaneously, and that blockade must be broken. The best course of action would be to use the Greyjoys, but they're not answering calls. They have no choice but to use the triarchy.

2. The likelihood of the triarchy defecting to the side with Corlys and Damon is extremely low. At worst, the triarchy will be an annoyance that must be dealt with later. Compare that to the dragon riders who are legit mercenaries with no real loyalty to Rhaenyra. There are no safety measures in place to stop them from defecting. Adding Grey wing and/or vermithor to the Greens would be extremely... problematic.

3. This one is less likely but still something to consider. If Vhagar goes down, Hugh Hammer will have the biggest dragon in the land. Since he has a claim to the throne through his mother, what's to stop him from using bully tactics to push his claim?

Honestly, at this point in the war, they really don't even need those extra dragons. The blockade is currently working, and their armies are slowly marching in from the north. Also, Damon just needs one other dragon with him, and he'll be able to take Viagra, I think.  It's pretty much a waiting game and Rhaenyra shall be easily ready to take the throne.

[Roseanna]

Unlike some here, I don't resent Rhaenyra not "warning" the bastards about dragons. They were volunteers who had chosen ambition to become a dragonlord over staying in poverty. And as smallfolk who she didn't even know they were replaceable to her.

To Rhaenyra, it was a decision between sacrificing dozens of people in the hope somebody of them would succeed and thus give her more dragons in order to make the Greens to surrender OR to let tens of thousands die in the war and lose her throne and life and probably also Jace's life. 

Of course, she could earlier have prevented the war by accepting Aegon as king and keep Dragonstone. But being as the Queen was more important to her - which is of course natural in her position.

Also now, she is unrealistic to believe that Aegon and Aemond would ever surrender - both will fight until death. And the Blacks can't let them live, either.

About Daemon: whereas Alys said earlier that the crown should be given to one who doesn't want it, now we hear Viserys admit that he was crushed by the crown - but was it just because he didn't want it *and* wasn't suited to be the king (he didn't do what was necessary)? 

[Roseanna]

It seems that there are only two episodes left. What's your opinion what would happen? I guess the end will be some kind of catastrophe - but what?

(Should we have a thread for speculation?)   

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

It seems that there are only two episodes left. What's your opinion what would happen? I guess the end will be some kind of catastrophe - but what?

(Should we have a thread for speculation?)   

 

Only 1 actually next week is the season finale

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Id argue that Rhaenyra's decision is much worse.

1. Vhagar can't be in all places simultaneously, and that blockade must be broken. The best course of action would be to use the Greyjoys, but they're not answering calls. They have no choice but to use the triarchy.

2. The likelihood of the triarchy defecting to the side with Corlys and Damon is extremely low. At worst, the triarchy will be an annoyance that must be dealt with later. Compare that to the dragon riders who are legit mercenaries with no real loyalty to Rhaenyra. There are no safety measures in place to stop them from defecting. Adding Grey wing and/or vermithor to the Greens would be extremely... problematic.

3. This one is less likely but still something to consider. If Vhagar goes down, Hugh Hammer will have the biggest dragon in the land. Since he has a claim to the throne through his mother, what's to stop him from using bully tactics to push his claim?

Honestly, at this point in the war, they really don't even need those extra dragons. The blockade is currently working, and their armies are slowly marching in from the north. Also, Damon just needs one other dragon with him, and he'll be able to take Viagra, I think.  It's pretty much a waiting game and Rhaenyra shall be easily ready to take the throne.

Vhagar doesn't have to be all places at once to break the blockade. It should be able to do it in several sorties, and possibly just one. As far as we know, Vhagar has only been deployed the one time to kill Melys. I'm not sure  how far the blockade goes, but there is no practical in-universe reason why Vhagar can't go on a daily run to roast a couple ships a day. Given that the blockade is so detrimental to Team Green's rule. one would think that it should be as big a priority as whatever else Vhagar is doing.

The Greyjoys are IIRC en route along with the Lannister navy. The issue is it takes too long to sail from the west of Westeros to confront the blockade and the Triarchy could get there faster. Know what could get there even faster? Vhagar. 

The issue isn't so much the likelihood of the Triarchy defecting to Team Black (although that is certainly a possibility that if paid/promised enough by Team Black they will supplement the blockade rather than help break it). The issue is them using their influence and positioning to extract a price Team Green either doesn't anticipate or isn't willing to pay. The philosophy of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" can only go so far. What happens when your mutual enemy is removed from that equation? Aemond isn't thinking about that possibility or anything more than one or two steps ahead. 

Obviously, the game has changed now that Team Black has not just additional dragons  than the ones they started with but one that could viably challenge Vhagar head-to-head. But of course, this isn't a factor in Aemond/Team Green's decision-making because they didn't know till now about Vermithor or any of the other dragons being under Team Black's control. 

That said, just having the biggest dragon doesn't win you the Game of Thrones. There's also willpower, ruthlessness, cunning, political savvy and connections, and a number of other factors. Some of that an upstart Hugh could possibly develop or even has at the moment. But as Daemon showed in this very episode, you can't just show up with the biggest dragon around and expect everyone to do your bidding.

Also, Daemon "take Viagra" is a hilarious typo considering his troubles in Season One.

Anyway, I don't think the waiting game favors Team Black all things considered. The longer Team Green holds onto power, the more legitimate they seem. The blockade is holding as a short-term tactic, but the longer it goes on, the more incentive people will get to pull a Ser Davos and smuggle past it or actually break it. 

Until this episode, it seemed like Team Black was likely losing the war in pretty much every metric other than the number of dragons they control and the propaganda battle over the blockade - control of the capitol, great houses aligned with them, number of fighting men and knights, money. It makes sense that Rhae attempt something to change that momentum, and she doesn't have too many options beyond recruit more dragons and play to a strength that the Greens cannot.

Even if I were to agree with you that Team Black's victory is inevitable without the addition dragons, the sort of victory that Rhae is hoping for -- relatively bloodless and soon -- is not. The march of troops from the north still probably means a month or so at a guess. By that time, ships loyal to Team Green will have arrived to make maintaining the blockade difficult. Trying to take Kings Landing via siege isn't going to be easy. Even less so because there'd be no excuse for not having dragons roast any armies attempting to conduct a siege. Rhae thinks the 7-4 advantage she has in dragons is enough to get Team Green to stand down. In universe, she might be right to think so. Because we know the show has at least one more season coming, we viewers know her logic isn't going to work out.

55 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

It seems that there are only two episodes left. What's your opinion what would happen? I guess the end will be some kind of catastrophe - but what?

(Should we have a thread for speculation?)   

Just one more episode left this season.  

My prediction (based solely on watching the show, no spoilers, no memory of the book on these points): We're going to see a Big Death, and to keep things balanced between Team Black and Team Green, I think that it will be Daemon's swan song. Within the universe, he has already had a witch tell him he's destined to die at Harrenhal, and he's isolated and alone. Also, Aemond has been itching to take on Daemon for years, it seems like. From real-world factors, I think Matt Smith is probably pricey and again, TPTB have an incentive in making this fight an even one so it can be protracted into as many seasons as they can wring out of it. 

 

[Roseanna]

44 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Only 1 actually next week is the season finale

Thank you for correction. I misunderstood. 

[ferjy]

On 7/29/2024 at 6:38 AM, goldilocks said:

Which two dragons were those at the end near Rhaenyra? I guess one was Syrax. Who was the other one? They both seemed to be the same color. 

I can’t tell the dragons apart. Except for Seasmoke, because he’s a distinct ghostly grey, and has a mohawk. 

 

[baldryanr]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

About Daemon: whereas Alys said earlier that the crown should be given to one who doesn't want it, now we hear Viserys admit that he was crushed by the crown - but was it just because he didn't want it *and* wasn't suited to be the king (he didn't do what was necessary)? 

Unless we think Alys can pull his spirit from the afterlife Viserys didn't admit anything. This is Daemon projecting what he thinks his brother would say.  And let's not pretend they knew each other all that well - over the last 20ish years of his life (episode 2 onwards) we likely saw every interaction they had, and there weren't many.

[ferjy]

On 7/29/2024 at 7:10 AM, Roseanna said:

It was a dreadful scene but I supposed they wanted to show that dragons *are* dangerous. 

It did do that! I’d bet the next Red Sowing is a little sparser of claimants once word gets out. 

 

[goldilocks]

32 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I can’t tell the dragons apart. Except for Seasmoke, because he’s a distinct ghostly grey, and has a mohawk. 

 

I think we should have a thread for dragon lessons. I don’t mean just a link to all the dragons, there are plenty of those, but a lesson on ONE of the dragons every day, or week. So it really sinks in. 😀

[Roseanna]

41 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Unless we think Alys can pull his spirit from the afterlife Viserys didn't admit anything. This is Daemon projecting what he thinks his brother would say.  And let's not pretend they knew each other all that well - over the last 20ish years of his life (episode 2 onwards) we likely saw every interaction they had, and there weren't many.

You are of course right. However, I think Daemon has begun to understand something about Viserys and king's job. But maybe too late. 

in any case, understanding isn't enough. One can't change one's character.

[ferjy]

17 minutes ago, goldilocks said:

I think we should have a thread for dragon lessons. I don’t mean just a link to all the dragons, there are plenty of those, but a lesson on ONE of the dragons every day, or week. So it really sinks in. 😀

I’m in! A little project to keep us going until next season. 😁

We finally got so see how formidable these dragons are. It’s easy to forget how dangerous they are when they’re majestically flying in the skies or being all cute and playful. Next thing you know they’re searing you to a crisp.

 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That said, just having the biggest dragon doesn't win you the Game of Thrones. There's also willpower, ruthlessness, cunning, political savvy and connections, and a number of other factors. Some of that an upstart Hugh could possibly develop or even has at the moment. But as Daemon showed in this very episode, you can't just show up with the biggest dragon around and expect everyone to do your bidding.

That. 

These upstart dragonriders can cause trouble, but that can be prevented if they are suitably rewarded by Rhaenyra. I doubt if Hugh and Ulf even get in their heads to claim the throne, but if they did, they would be regarded as laughingstocks by their old comrades.  

Addam is more ambitious, but he would probably be content to become a valued member of Kingsguard.  

Edited July 30 by Roseanna
changing a word

[tennisgurl]

I love when we focus on the dragons, that ending was fist pumping levels of awesome. I definitely think that Rhaenyra asked Ulf to fly around Kings Landing (which he must have been thrilled to do) to call out Aemond and get him to follow Ulf to her castle to flex that she now has more dragons in play again. That was pure "come at me bro!" 

 Its too bad that Rhaenyra had to sacrifice so many innocent people to get her dragon riders, she couldn't have at least let them go one at a time instead of putting everyone in there at once like an all you can barbeque buffet? The guards couldn't even let them get to safety? Vermithor at least was having a great time, he got a delicious meal and a new human, what a day! 

Its hilarious how different the dragons are when it comes to finding their person. Seasmoke goes off to find his person like a cat who decides he lives in your house now, Vermithor picks a human based on his bravery, and Silverwing was like "you look like a cute little messy bitch, I'll keep you." 

I really enjoyed Aemond in the background firing some of Aegon's frat bros and forcing them to take the black, if nothing else that was certainly a good call for Aemond. 

Jace was being a pretty classist jerk about the dragonseeds, but it was clearly also about his insecurity given his own parentage being an open secret, and isn't wrong that this is going to further take away some of the mystique of the Targaryen royal dynasty. First we have the Greens parading a dragons head around Kings Landing, reminding people that dragons animals not gods, and now we have reminders that there are tons of silverhaired people around with that special blood just hanging around being normal people. I still think that bringing in new riders is a good call, but its something to consider. 

Its time for Corlys to formally acknowledge his sons and even legitimize them. Not only is it pretty obvious to everyone who Alyn and Addam are to him, but with his kids dead (to his knowledge) and heir gone as well, legitimizing his two loyal sons, one of whom is a dragonrider, seems like a good call. 

Lord Oscar Tully for the win! By far the best thing coming out of this long ass Harrenhal plot is the amount of people who are just totally over Daemon and his drama. 

[paigow]

On 7/29/2024 at 7:48 AM, Haleth said:

I thought Alicent was going to drown herself. 

Larys would run a marathon through dragon dung to be in that pond...

Edited July 31 by paigow

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But at least some of the river lords should be fearing him because he is a loose canon with a WMD. Or maybe those who do fear him just didn't show up?

I don't think any in the Riverlands fear him because he's showed his hand by not burning the Brackens when they refused to support him.  The river lords know he needs them too much to burn them so they don't fear him.  And really, that's all Daemon has.

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But from what we've shown so far, what is required to claim a dragon is not always boldness or intelligence. Indeed, sometimes/most times it's the dragon that claims the rider. Seasmoke claimed Addam, not the other way around. And Silverwing claimed Ulf not because Ulf was the least bit bold or bright...he even seemed to step on one of her eggs.

Those were dragons used to interaction with humans, though.  I think a wild dragon would be a very different matter.  I guess we'll see.

Basically my problem with the storyline is that Rhaena has been nothing but a whiny, boring drip since the time jump and while I get that they're trying to give her something to make her more consequential, it's just not working for me.

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Oscar and the Riverlords (whose new album is due to drop next Autumn, btw) aren't randos. They are pretty important people to the Team Black strategy of taking back King's Landing. You can't just burninate King's Landing without doing massive damage to both your future seat of power and to the smallfolk you hope to rule. So you need foot soldiers. The only ones aligned to Team Black are in the North and the Vale. The Vale's support has not yet seen them put soldiers on the march. Presumably, the Starks have called their banners because they're as good as their word. But to get to King's Landing, the Northern soldiers will have to go through the Riverlands. So getting the Riverlands on their side is crucial. Daemon has been exposed as harmless in the short term because he's not willing to just burn or otherwise kill lords of the lesser houses until he gets one to bend the knee. So coming to Harrenhal posed little risk for the Riverlords

You put it better than I could, but this is exactly what I meant.

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I take your point about the guards blocking their escape but I have a hard time believing these people were tricked or otherwise misled. It's a goddam dragon.

I don't believe they were tricked but Rhaenyra definitely downplayed the danger of what she was asking them to do for her, and for that, I absolutely judge her.  Because to most of these people, a dragon is still mostly an abstract idea since I can't imagine many of them had much contact with Vhagar or Sunfyre.  Sure, they understand on one level that it's a beast who breathes fire, but they've never seen it happen and don't quite connect the idea of it with the actual horror.  I think that if Rhaenyra was as good a person as she (or probably more accurately, the showrunner & writers) want us to believe she is, she had the responsibility to be very clear about what could happen and she wasn't.

18 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I'm sure that Corlys has some Targaryen heritage as well. 

Does he?  I've tried looking at the wikis but none of them seem to indicate that Corlys' branch of Velaryons has any Targaryen heritage.  Of course that doesn't mean the show won't say that he does.  Which is fine, I'm just curious.

18 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If Daemon had burned "just" a few, chances are the rest would have bent the knee anyway

He didn't because he needs them all and they know it.  The river lords are pretty much the only real source of an army he has within a reasonable distance to Kings Landing.

18 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And why are the river lords more trustworthy now when they have just proven that they enjoy disobeying their king (consort) and blackmailing him to do stuff? For all Daemon knows, they might switch sides the next time they disapprove of his ideas and considering his track record in gaining followers, this will probably be pretty soon.

It's not that the river lords are more trustworthy now.  It's that Daemon is that fucking desperate.  He has no real choice and they know it.

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not that I think Rhaenyra is over-concerned about the smallfolk, but she didn't know that most of them were going to die; for all she knew, the first or second guy up might succeed.

Given what she saw with Ser Steffon, I think she knew damned well that a fair number were going to end up dead.

[iMonrey]

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But "definitely" is too strong as they haven't shown her considering or articulating the consequences of being back-dracrysed by an upstart dragonlord, defections, etc. All we saw on screen was her trying to mollify Jace over the notion that one of these bastards might challenge him or otherwise undermine his legitimacy as an heir after Rhae dies. 

Part of the problem I have with Rhaenyra - and I'm not sure if it's the way she's written or if it's the actress herself - is that she's a cold fish. I just can't really get a read on her half the time. 

Something I noticed on rewatch is that both Hugh and Ulf fell into the water before they were accepted by their dragons. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything but I thought it was an interesting coincidence they were both soaked in black, icky water.

Quote

Rhaenyrs was probably occupied with Vermithor and Hugh and then noticed a dragon leaving the caverns. Silverwing reacted the same way Vhagar did when Aemond was claimed; immediate joyride hoping their new rider doesn't fall off.

There's an interview with Ryan Condal who confirms that Ulf and Silverwing were in fact deliberately sent to Kings Landing to lure Aemond and Vhagar to Dragonstone in an attempt to trap them. Same way Aemond set up a trap for Rhaenys at Rooks Rest. I assume we're meant to understand some time had passed between Ulf stumbling upon Silverwing in the dragon pit and his flight all the way back to the mainland.

Edited July 30 by iMonrey

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, paigow said:

If by pina colada, you mean buckets of blood...

I was referencing something Ewan Mitchell had said in an interview about what Aemond would envision as his happy ending vis a vis Alicent if he won this war for her, but yeah. 

Here's the clip from the Esquire interview.  I don't think it has any spoilers but be forewarned anyway.

https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/tv/a61661265/house-of-the-dragons-ewan-mitchell-breaks-down-aemonds-biggest-scenes/

Edited to note that I think Ewan really doesn't want to eat any more chicken for quite awhile.

19 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If they refuse to obey Daemon they automatically become declared, that's the cool thing about civil wars if you are itching to commit some atrocities (assuming Daemon is recognized as Rhaenyra's representative, of course). Being undeclared is no protection, otherwise most lords would have remained undeclared throughout and let those inbred idiots fight it out.

Most of them said that they were waiting for what the Tullys decided.  Which is pretty much how it's supposed to work in Westeros but very rarely does.

Edited July 30 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I suppose she could have thought that Verm would have been willing/able to pick one person out of the crowd to be their rider and leave the rest mostly alone. Naive, maybe, but not exactly stupid.

Extremely naive and probably stupid.  Certainly hideously careless with other people's lives.

Edited July 30 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

These upstart dragonriders can cause trouble, but that can be prevented if they are suitably rewarded by Rhaenyra.

I think the "if they are suitably rewarded by Rhaenyra" part is extremely important.  They might not have any aspirations regarding the throne, but that doesn't mean they couldn't turn on her if they don't feel they've been rewarded the way they think they should be.

18 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

She is so stuck on trying to have a bloodless war plus trying not to kill anyone needlessly and she just cannot compute why the roasting of people keeps happening in her Dragonpit. 

I think you're giving her too much credit but I agree if we had gotten a shot where we saw some reaction on her face, it would've helped.  Honestly, at this point she's just so incredibly naive about how bloody this war has already been and will continue to be that I'm finding it difficult to believe.

16 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

He looked like he was holding on to a saddle. Two wooden sticks. I don't think those saddles come on and off like a horse. 

Yeah, we've seen that other mature dragons with saddles which seem to have been on them for decades.  Although I'd think at some point they'd need replaced as the dragons grew.  I mean, how long has Vhagar being wearing her saddle?  She wasn't this huge when Visenya first claimed her nearly 200 years earlier.

17 hours ago, AntFTW said:

If they actually believed they were of Targaryen descent, they might not have that inkling considering that all of the prominent Targaryens have not been roasted.

Aegon the Usurper has a dragon and he's not roasted. Aemond has a dragon and he's not roasted. Rhaenys had a dragon and she wasn't roasted. Jahaerys had a dragon and he wasn't roasted (if they were old enough to remember Jahaerys). Rhaenyra's sons have dragons and they weren't roasted. I could go on obviously. There is no example they can point to where a Targaryen gets roasted when attempting to claim a dragon.

If they actually believed they had Targaryen ancestry, they might think otherwise based on the examples they know about.

I wonder how many Targaryens have been roasted by dragons they attempted to claim at this point.  Not that the common folk would have heard about it but it's an interesting question, to me anyway.

16 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I think they knew what to do as well. Knew how to run or where to duck and I assume dragon keepers were there for the kids. Daemon probably did what Rhaenyra did--called the dragon but didn't try to claim.

Daemon is a trained dragon rider.  Aemond had the benefit of watching his brother and nephew receive training with their dragons.  Both probably had a very good idea of how to avoid getting flamed.  And it certainly seemed like Dreamfyre at least would've followed up on her warning shot if Aemond hadn't backed off when he did.

16 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Upon rewatch, I did see a saddle on Silverwing! And yes, the dragonriders do have saddles that come on and off. That's part of the duties of the dragon keepers. Now, having seen the saddle when Silverwing woke up from her nap (Did Ulf step on a live dragon egg or a dead one?), am I to understand that that saddle from her previous rider was never removed? Damn, can you imagine not allowing the keepers to remove the saddle of your dead rider...

I'm not sure the saddles are removed.  Meleys had hers on when she burst out of the Dragon Pit in season 1, and I can't think the keepers would've saddled her for Rhaenys while the coronation was going on above them.  And Vhagar doesn't fit in the Dragon Pit, so I seriously doubt any dragon keepers are getting near her.  Plus, she had that saddle on when Aemond approached her on the beach at Driftmark.  But it's an interesting question and one I wouldn't mind asking someone involved in the production if I ever got the chance.

[proserpina65]

  

15 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I hope Oscar names his children Birdie, Hooper, and Cookie.

Apparently in the book there is a Kermit and an Elmo, so fingers crossed.

15 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Aegon is a great demonstration of being able to feel bad for someone while finding them repulsive. Love ya Tom.

Maybe I'm a coldhearted bitch because I don't feel the least bit sorry for Aegon.  Now Sunfyre, that's a different story.  Aegon deserves his agony, but his poor dragon did not.

15 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Put Rhaenyra’s handmaiden on her council and this war ends tomorrow. She’s getting shit done and in record time.

No, it doesn't.  Because she can't whip up an army out of thin air for Rhaenyra.

15 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I know she was in a lake but it would’ve been funny if a shark had eaten Alicent as she floated on the water.

Maybe piranhas?

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around any of these people not understanding that they're risking death by getting near a dragon, much less trying to claim one.

Few of them had probably even seen a dragon up close and none of them would've ever seen one flame people, so while they might've known the abstract idea of death by dragon fire, they couldn't possibly have really understood it.  A good person in a desperate situation would've done their damnedest to explain it but Rhaenyra is not really a good person unless it suits her cause.

[aghst]

Some podcasts point out that Raynera had the guards block the exit from the pit, in case some of the wannabe dragon riders had second thoughts.

That might be the first evil move she makes, other than screwing Cole and then her uncle.  Yeah I know, incest is encouraged in the family but even Damon initially stopped himself.

It would be okay if the dragons just rejected the unsuitable ones but no, Vermithor burns and eats them.  He likes his small folk smoked.