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S01.E08 (BBC/D+): Empire of Death

DanaK

By DanaK
in Doctor Who

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DanaK

DanaK

Premiering June 22 at midnight Saturday in the UK streaming on BBC iPlayer and Disney+ internationally (in the U.S. that would be 7pm EDT Friday evening) and then broadcast on BBC One at 18:40pm (6:40pm) UK time

Synopsis: The Doctor has lost, his ageless enemy reigns supreme, and a shadow is falling over creation. Nothing can stop the devastation... except, perhaps, one woman.

Writer: Russell T Davies

Director: Jamie Donoughue

Runtime: 54 minutes

Full production listing https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0020krd

DanaK

DanaK

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That was a disappointment though as an adoptee myself, I appreciated that Ruby found her birth mother. But all that buildup suggesting the birth mom was something special or supernatural when she was just ordinary landed with a big thud and a huh? given Sutekh’s need to know who she was. The rest was kind of dull at times and sometimes incomprehensible. Such a disappointment for a finale given how much I liked Part 1 last week. Performances were good or better in general and I liked everyone remembered they died. I give it a 5 out of 10. I did enjoy the season overall and I especially enjoyed being able to watch at the same time as the UK, which was 7pm ET in the US for me

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DoctorAtomic

DoctorAtomic

I like the show, but I think it's a fair criticism that RTD can go way too big. There's no way I was buying they're killing off Kate and Ruby's mum. Right off the bat, the stakes just aren't there for me. To be fair, Gatwa definitely sold it. And, to be more fair, I always like when Classic Who is brought into our modern times. 

Taking the TARDIS hostage fired me up! How dare you! I did like the TARDIS that was bits of all of them. 

I noticed Fifteen was outfitted very much like Nine as well for part of it. 

As much as I (fairly) criticized 73 yards, I'm enjoying that there's a payoff here too. 

What I don't get it why a so-called god didn't know the name. You'd think clever Doctor might have played that angle. Technically, I guess they did. I guess I'm just used to the Doctor being more shouty in these situations. Dragging Sutekh behind the TARDIS like the dog in Vacation seemed overly cruel for the Doctor. I don't know what other choice they had, but Fifteen didn't seem too phazed. I did buy that actually killing him affected the Doctor. 

I think I was mostly relieved the Ood were ok. 

I almost wanted Ruby to just delete the information on her mother and just walk away from it all. Good casting though. I liked the resolution that she was ordinary but important because we all thought so and not the most special girl in the universe. 

I enjoyed the goodbye, but it missed just a little for me because it was only 6 episodes. Of course, I know they traveled a lot 'off screen', but there wasn't  much of a mention of that either.

I'm unspoiled, and I would like to remain that way, but for an ending, this was nice. Ruby has more family, and she doesn't seem traumatized. We did kind of miss why the birth mother was dressed up like death nor seemed too concerned some guy waltzed out of a police box at the same time she was dropping off her baby. She didn't seem like she was 15 at the time either. 

I don't think the snow was ever really explained. Was it meant to be Sutekh?

tbh, this was a 2 parter, so there's six other episodes, but 2 of them were Doctor-lite and both of them lite. So we really only got 4 episodes of proper Doctor Who. That's too bad because the actors were really good. 

 

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Makai

Makai

(edited)

I liked it because I like the characters and actors but the story fell flat for me. It helped that I went in knowing what it expect from a RTD finale. At least it was better than The Last of the Time Lords. 

I was way more interested in whatever is being set up with Mrs. Flood than the actual plot. 

2 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

So are we getting a new companion next season since Ruby bailed out? Anybody heard any good rumors?

Spoiler

Ruby will be back next season and will be joined by Varada Sethu who played Mundy in Boom. 

 

Edited by Makai
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Megras

Megras

Welp, didn't stick the landing for me. Is it wrong of me that the part of the episode I was most exited by was the coda just before the end credits?

After seeing the whole series, I feel that this basically told Ruby's story but that the show should be about the Doctor. That's not to say that I didn't like Ruby, I just wish the companions would be less samey. Get a historic or future companion to shake things up a little.

I do think that Ncuti grew into the role and had good moments but he is not yet a favourite.

I think my ideal season arc would try to do the Faction Paradox stuff (done by Moffat?) from the tie in novels from when the show was off air, but that would probably be to grown up for the direction the show is going in and there would likely be licensing issues too.

Failing that I hope they explore what the implications of death dying might have if no one dies anymore.

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DoctorAtomic

DoctorAtomic

5 minutes ago, Megras said:

Welp, didn't stick the landing for me. Is it wrong of me that the part of the episode I was most exited by was the coda just before the end credits?

I think that's fair. For me, the Doctor is an aspirational figure, and the Companions grow and learn about themselves by traveling, being capable of more than they thought they could be. I feel Ruby could be in that place (again, unspoiled). I liked for her that there really didn't end up being any stakes, per se, but there's a moving on in a good way. Ryan, Martha, and Donna clearly fit that for me. I also didn't think the "I love you" wasn't *lurve*. There's some growth there, and that's good. In terms of not sticking the landing, we just didn't have enough time with the two of them. I wouldn't say the ending wasn't earned but the actors weren't really allowed to breathe in the roles. Per se. I like saying per se. 

I don't quite get Fifteen saying he's never thought about family before, when Thirteen was all about The Fam. 

In terms of the ending, I don't think it's Susan, even though she's been brought up a lot. The Master seems too obvious. In Classic Who, I suppose that means the Rani? The Valeyard doesn't seem to fit in this context. Whoever it is, knows what a TARDIS is. 

Interesting that 'clever boy' was said though. 

18 minutes ago, Megras said:

I do think that Ncuti grew into the role and had good moments but he is not yet a favourite.

He had very Doctor moments for me, but there just wasn't enough screen time for that aspect to play out. I think here it's agreed that part one of this finale was where he was the most Doctor. 

20 minutes ago, Megras said:

Failing that I hope they explore what the implications of death dying might have if no one dies anymore.

This was the plot for Torchwood: Miracle Day also run by RTD. I did like watching, but it took some work. We had a thread at the old place. 

 

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RobertDeSneero

RobertDeSneero

4 hours ago, tkc said:

Can you imagine how angry Sutekh would have been with Rian Johnson afterThe Last Jedi?

“What do you mean Rey’s parents were NOBODIES?!!!”

My mind did go to that.  I was a fan of Rey's parents being nobodies and of TLJ in general and was disappointed with how the next movie wiped that all away.  I would rather they keep Ruby's parentage as is, not make her unseen father be someone special, and just have her be important because the Doctor cares about her and not because she has some special heritage or was created for a specific purpose.

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tv-talk

tv-talk

I felt like I must have missed something but reading the comments here realize I did not, the story was in fact absurd. Ruby's Mom was a regular person in no way different than all the untold trillions that became dust under Sutekh? Why did the Death God care so much about this one Mom and why was he able to know everything else aside from who she was? Why did he even care? Makes no sense whatsoever.

As far as offing Sutek- what exactly happened there? They physically attached him to the TARDIS and dragged him to death? Was there something special about those ropes? Was there anything clever to how that all happened and I just missed it?

I thought the Doctor and Ruby did their goodbye well as far as the acting, but they spend so little on-screen time together in this one season it just didnt seem authentic. On top of that we already knew Ruby stars in next season as well, so the Goodbye wasnt really a Goodbye was it?

Overall poor first season for this Doctor due to the writing whereas the acting was fine. Hopefully next season will feel more like proper Doctor but so much will hinge on the new Companion. If she's just another Earthling from present times, I can foresee a pretty bad season. 

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baldryanr

baldryanr

24 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I thought the Doctor and Ruby did their goodbye well as far as the acting, but they spend so little on-screen time together in this one season it just didnt seem authentic. On top of that we already knew Ruby stars in next season as well, so the Goodbye wasnt really a Goodbye was it?

It also doesn't make sense for the Doctor to be so broken up.  Ruby needed time to get to know her bio parents - it's not like she was fed up/traumatized.  Great, time travel one year into the future and see if she's still eager to go adventuring.   If she's moved on, then you can dissolve into a puddle of tears.

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tv-talk

tv-talk

16 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

If she's moved on, then you can dissolve into a puddle of tears.

It wouldnt be the 15th Doctor if he wasnt dissolving into a puddle of tears. I really hope they scale way back on that next season. This season was short and had a few Doctor-lite episodes, I think there is room to make the Doctor more Doctor-y next season if they want to. Of course the main storyline will probably his romantic relationship with Rogue, so I wont hold my breath.

That reminds me- did anyone notice when they showed Tom Baker from Pyramids of Mars and Ruby asked "Who are they?" that 15 responded "Those are people who used to fly the Tardis" or something to that effect? Rather than saying "That's me" he described 4 as someone else entirely? Did I catch that correctly? 

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Sakura12

Sakura12

If you make the whole build up and make it nothing its going to fall flat. Plus it doesn't explain how no one could find her. She's a nurse. She would have medical records. And why does it always snow around Ruby. Lots of mother's have given up their babies. What made Ruby's mother so special that the God of death couldn't find a 15 year old girl. 

Well I hope the Mrs. Flood thing turns out better. But the way this turned out she's probably the God of stories. 

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DanaK

DanaK

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1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Did anyone else notice the seeds of romance between Kate and that soldier (sorry don't recall his name)?

After they were revived and were all looking out the window, shot from behind, there was some lingering hand-holding there.

Yeah, I noticed, but it could have just been non-romantic just happy to be alive feelings. We’ll see if anything comes from it

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NeenerNeener

NeenerNeener

In retrospect I have questions...so Sutehk was attached to the TARDIS. The same TARDIS that "bi-generated" off from 14's TARDIS. And 14's TARDIS should still be around, because Rose's "uncle" is still around. Is there a Sutehk attached to that TARDIS too because he also split? Or did he choose to attach himself only to 15's TARDIS? And why?

As much as I love the fact that we didn't have to see Tennant killed off a second time the bi-generation scheme introduces a whole bunch of other problems.

Affogato

Affogato

14 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

If you make the whole build up and make it nothing its going to fall flat. Plus it doesn't explain how no one could find her. She's a nurse. She would have medical records. And why does it always snow around Ruby. Lots of mother's have given up their babies. What made Ruby's mother so special that the God of death couldn't find a 15 year old girl. 

Well I hope the Mrs. Flood thing turns out better. But the way this turned out she's probably the God of stories. 

I think that Ruby’s future involvement with the Doctor made it difficult to find the mother and the snow was the compromised Tardis reaching for its memory of what happened and bringing the snow from that time, vis time. 
 

i do not understand why Ruby finding her birth mother would mean she couldn’t travel with the Doctor, since the relationship will presumably develop over time, while they are doing other things. They are adults.  Originally Ruby was only in one season, so I assume she will be in the second season as part of a plot line and not a permanent companion, maybe.
 

 Having the Doctor destroy all the worlds he visited and help was the most horrible thing for him, but the giant jackal was not as scary as it might have been. To me. Maybe that is the connection to the old show. 
melanins dusting was sad. 

14 hours ago, Makai said:

It doesn’t make it make sense but, yes, there was something special about the rope. The Doctor earlier said that it was intelligent rope and the hook is a molecular bond. 

Like the intelligent gloves? May e he means a version of strong AI. 

Sakura12

Sakura12

I don't mind Ruby being ordinary. But why not just make her ordinary from the beginning. They made the whole story revolve around her being special enough that God's were involved. She could've been just like Martha, an ordinary woman that travels with the Doctor. What makes them special is what they learn and do on those travels. 

I hope with the next companion we get to see them together a bit more to see them bond. We didn't get that with Ruby and 15. They said they were best friends but I never saw that happen. 

 

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Enigma X

Enigma X

(edited)
56 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't mind Ruby being ordinary. But why not just make her ordinary from the beginning. They made the whole story revolve around her being special enough that God's were involved. She could've been just like Martha, an ordinary woman that travels with the Doctor. What makes them special is what they learn and do on those travels. 

As a person who does not care whether a companion is special or not, I agree that the viewers thought Ruby was special because RTD wrote her for us to believe she was special. She can create snow; her bio mother points at an unseen lamp post like a psycho; older Ruby whispers something we don't know to cause her loved ones to abandon her, and --the kicker--not even Davina McCall can find her ordinary and still in the same town parents. I am an RTD fan, but no RTD. We thought she was special because you told us she was.

Edited by Enigma X
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ROEHUNTER

ROEHUNTER

On 6/22/2024 at 10:49 AM, tv-talk said:

That reminds me- did anyone notice when they showed Tom Baker from Pyramids of Mars and Ruby asked "Who are they?" that 15 responded "Those are people who used to fly the Tardis" or something to that effect? Rather than saying "That's me" he described 4 as someone else entirely? Did I catch that correctly? 

I did, not sure why he phrased it that way. was odd.

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John Potts

John Potts

OK, there were several things to love about the conclusion to this season: the "Callback" TARDIS was great ("Is it safe?" "It's an absolute deathtrap!"), Mel got to do more than she ever did when she was an actual Companion (which was mostly just scream), liked that the Doctor spotted that Mel was acting weird and we had a Companion that left just because they wanted to ("Will I see you again?" "Maybe in a Christmas Special!"). Hell, it even had the Doctor calling back to The Pyramids of Mars by aging the villain to death (or something similar). But it also contained all of RTD's worst instincts: he just cannot end a season without putting the entire Universe in jeopardy which actually lowers the tension because it has to be undone (the Universe is where the show is set!). And in the litany of restored planets, couldn't we have had a few the Doctor had mixed feelings about them coming back (Skaro, Sontar, Gallifrey...) as well as those he wants restored?

 

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NeenerNeener

NeenerNeener

On 6/21/2024 at 8:59 PM, TheOtherOne said:

The answer has been reported and confirmed by RTD and the BBC.

According to the Daily Mail, though, Ruby will only be seen once in awhile because Millie is filming the new version of The Forsythe Saga:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-13561367/Doctor-Millie-Gibson-fleeting-appearance-series-replaced.html

tennisgurl

tennisgurl

(edited)

I guess its good to know that, even years later, RTD cannot stick a landing. He's nothing if not consistent I guess. The stuff with Sutek was alright even if if it was yet another story where the whole universe dies so of course everything will be put back to normal by the end of the episode, but the reveal of Ruby's mother is such an unbelievable let down. 

I would be happy to have a companion who's just a normal person going on an amazing adventure, but after a whole season being told how special Ruby's birth mother is and therefore Ruby must be, her just being normal all along is such an asspull. If Ruby's mom is just a normal person, how can Ruby make it snow and play Carol of the Bells? She can just randomly manifest being magic because she so badly wants to know who her birth mom is? No one, not UNIT, not DNA tracking reality TV, not The Doctor, not gods, could find this woman when apparently a basic DNA test and an Instagram search could have found her in three seconds? If you were a pregnant teenager leaving your baby on the steps of a church and wanted to pick her name, why not leave a note instead of finding a security camera and dramatically pointing at a street sign? Why was she apparently doing a Death Eater cosplay during all of this? What a coincidence that she just happened to be pointing at a street sign that just so happened to be the direction of The Doctor?

Next it will turn out that Mrs. Flood is just a normal lady with dementia. 

There was a lot that was good here, good acting, great CGI, Mel being the best, the continuity nods were fun, but that terrible ending to the Ruby mystery and the overall messiness made this a huge disappointment.  

Edited by tennisgurl
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Makai

Makai

(edited)
16 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

According to the Daily Mail, though, Ruby will only be seen once in awhile because Millie is filming the new version of The Forsythe Saga:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-13561367/Doctor-Millie-Gibson-fleeting-appearance-series-replaced.html

They might be right about her not being featured heavily but that won’t be why. Next season finished filming last month around the same time the Forsyte Saga began filming.  

Edited by Makai
isalicat

isalicat

Well, I gave it a chance, and nope...once again, all the grand finale episodes of the revival series have let me down. I stopped watching Doctor Who at the beginning of the Jodi Whittaker era (I like her; the stories were just truly unwatchable), and I began and stuck with this season all the way through because Ncuti is a charmer but ultimately Ruby was a cipher, the stories were more of that terrible "afterschool special" variety and this last two part episode was just nonsensical. Looking back, I can't remember any Doctor Who episodes since Christopher Eccleston was the Doctor have resonated like old school Doctor Who. I can't believe how dumb this has all become...I'm embarrassed for everyone involved.

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TheOtherOne

TheOtherOne

7 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

According to the Daily Mail, though, Ruby will only be seen once in awhile because Millie is filming the new version of The Forsythe Saga:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-13561367/Doctor-Millie-Gibson-fleeting-appearance-series-replaced.html

One reason the BBC and RTD announced she would be back is that the Daily Mail and others were claiming earlier this year that she'd been fired and replaced with the new companion (some were saying after only a few episodes), so the DM may need to be taken with several grains of salt.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-12985585/Doctor-Millie-Gibson-dropped-one-series-replacement-revealed.html

https://deadline.com/2024/01/doctor-who-millie-gibson-dropped-varada-sethu-joins-1235799043/

 

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Affogato

Affogato

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Whoever she was meant to be, she was cosplaying Romana! Seriously, that white outfit with the fur-fringed hood was an exact replica of an outfit Mary Tamm wore as Romana back in the 1970s.

I know, and one of her outfits echoes clara. I was thinking of standing on the roof with a parasol. I don’t know, but I hope it is a good story. 

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tv-talk

tv-talk

15 hours ago, isalicat said:

I stopped watching Doctor Who at the beginning of the Jodi Whittaker era

Same, but I semi-binged her seasons in "prep" for 15 and I liked them much more than I expected. Definitely better than this past season, she did The Doctor quite well which I cant yet say for Ncuti. Also it's nice to have multiple companions getting into different situations as opposed to the most specialist person in the Universe approach we see with one Companion.

And again that scene just now where he told Ruby "those are some people who used to fly the Tardis" just bugs me a bit, like RTD is trying to make a completely clean break from the character's long history. 

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Chyromaniac

Chyromaniac

(edited)
3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

And again that scene just now where he told Ruby "those are some people who used to fly the Tardis" just bugs me a bit, like RTD is trying to make a completely clean break from the character's long history. 

I don't get the impression that he's trying to break from the show's history at all - if anything he's expanded it even further by acknowledging Richard E Grant as a Doctor.  Also, if he wanted a break from the past, why even show the clip at all, let alone center a whole season on a villain from 39 years ago, follow up with Mel, use Susan as a red herring, or create a literal plot device (the "Remember Tardis") filled with nods to the entire run of the show?  I feel like he's using show lore as needed - to help flesh out the story that he's trying to tell here.  Whether that was successful, ymmv.

Otherwise, I agree that it's a clunky line - but isn't one of the affects of Sutekh's plan that people are forgetting things as the universe gets snuffed out?  The Tent Barista who gave 15 the spoon couldn't remember her past, and even he seemed to be having difficulty recalling things like how he got there.  Ruby also seems fuzzy when he gets back to the Tardis - or, as another poster suggested, we haven't seen Ruby get the regeneration info dump yet.  Either way, it seems like he was just trying to explain it in a way that would make sense to her at the time.

In general I thought it was a solid finale for this arc.  If nothing else, I liked the idea that some ordinary things (people, places, objects, etc...) can become special because we imbue them with importance - for good or bad.  I feel like Sutekh has to be so sure that he's wiped out literally every living thing, that the idea that there's potentially some "mystery woman" out there is so unnerving that it completely throws him off his game when that knowledge is denied him.  He could've been satisfied with 99.9999999% success rate - but nope, he just had to keep pushing - and that drive is what imbued both Ruby and her mother with their specialness.  Much like a certain other genre villain, he invests so much in his own destiny, that he basically creates the circumstances of his own defeat.

Edited by Chyromaniac
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Llywela

Llywela

3 hours ago, tv-talk said:

And again that scene just now where he told Ruby "those are some people who used to fly the Tardis" just bugs me a bit, like RTD is trying to make a completely clean break from the character's long history. 

I assumed he just really didn't want to get into the whole regeneration conversation with Ruby in that moment, having more pressing issues to be getting on with!

DoctorAtomic

DoctorAtomic

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

And that she has been Clara, Rory, and Ryan just to keep an eye on him.

I hope not. That takes a lot of agency away from all of them.

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

And again that scene just now where he told Ruby "those are some people who used to fly the Tardis" just bugs me a bit, like RTD is trying to make a completely clean break from the character's long history. 

I don't think RTD is making a break if the villain of the season is from Classic Who, and the last shot is of Romana. And Mel was featured heavily.

It was said upthread that the situation didn't lend itself to a discussion of regenerations. imo, Fifteen is a lot more emotional Doctor, and he told Kate about trying to open up more. So he also just doesn't see himself as that person. Saying "that was me a long time ago" may not feel right. 

Or, the Doctor was thinking a million things at once, as always, so this trivial detail wasn't particularly important to get into at the moment. 

 

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tv-talk

tv-talk

On 6/25/2024 at 10:14 AM, Chyromaniac said:

Otherwise, I agree that it's a clunky line - but isn't one of the affects of Sutekh's plan that people are forgetting things as the universe gets snuffed out? 

Oh yeah I did forget that part. Viewed it that light it could also be seen as the Doctor himself losing his grip on things, as in barely remembering that was him as everyone was losing their grip in the past. That definitely makes sense! 

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