Josh and Anna

[Meow Mix]

On 3/29/2024 at 8:27 PM, Not Buyin It said:

Why is it unfair? Why should a felony charge mean a life of guaranteed poverty? Yeah, Duggar did some Sh!tAzz things. But I can't help but notice that, while certain politicians, sports figures and Hollywood darlings have done same/worse, Duggar is held in greater contempt and hatred. And the only apparent difference is the Duggars' Christian faith (flawed as their practice might be). It makes me wonder.

I think the bolded is a good question that I have asked myself.  Do I hold Josh more accountable or as somehow worse because he is a Christian?  And the answer is on some level, I do.  

First, what he did was truly heinous and I would see it that way if he were Joe Schmo who never darkened the door of a church.  I feel the same about Subway Jared, Jeffrey Epstein, et. al.  His actions are problematic regardless of his faith and I am glad justice was served for him.

Now, to the Christian part.  I am a Christian myself though the Duggars would probably not see me that way because I am far more progressive.  So, I'm not just being mean to someone because they are a Christian or because their faith practice differs from mine.  I do however have a greater problem with him because he wasn't just going along for the ride with his family.  He regularly publicly professed his faith, regularly led worship at the family church, and was even employed by the FRC to be a spokesperson for their policies.  What they themselves have told us is that someone who accepts Jesus into their heart becomes a new man in Christ. 

Now, yes, Christians mess up and some mess up bad enough that they owe a debt to society to make amends. But in his case he messed up and clearly had no remorse for anything he did.  According to Jill Dillard's book when they were hiding from the tabloids after the first scandal broke, he thought the whole thing was funny.  When he made his infamous statement about Satan building a fortress in his heart he used passive voice to describe his cheating on his wife.  He said he became unfaithful like it was something that happened to him rather than a choice he made.  And then when he was in court facing down federal charges his demeanor was of someone who was there for a traffic ticket.  He clearly did not see himself as accountable for any of his actions.  My big issue with him was that while he was claiming to be this model Christian he was doing some pretty horrible things and was only stopped when secular authorities stepped in.  So, yes, I hold him to a higher standard on that part because someone who is truly transformed by their acceptance of Jesus does not keep going back and wallowing in sinful behaviors.  

[crazycatlady58]

12 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

I think the bolded is a good question that I have asked myself.  Do I hold Josh more accountable or as somehow worse because he is a Christian?  And the answer is on some level, I do.  

First, what he did was truly heinous and I would see it that way if he were Joe Schmo who never darkened the door of a church.  I feel the same about Subway Jared, Jeffrey Epstein, et. al.  His actions are problematic regardless of his faith and I am glad justice was served for him.

Now, to the Christian part.  I am a Christian myself though the Duggars would probably not see me that way because I am far more progressive.  So, I'm not just being mean to someone because they are a Christian or because their faith practice differs from mine.  I do however have a greater problem with him because he wasn't just going along for the ride with his family.  He regularly publicly professed his faith, regularly led worship at the family church, and was even employed by the FRC to be a spokesperson for their policies.  What they themselves have told us is that someone who accepts Jesus into their heart becomes a new man in Christ. 

Now, yes, Christians mess up and some mess up bad enough that they owe a debt to society to make amends. But in his case he messed up and clearly had no remorse for anything he did.  According to Jill Dillard's book when they were hiding from the tabloids after the first scandal broke, he thought the whole thing was funny.  When he made his infamous statement about Satan building a fortress in his heart he used passive voice to describe his cheating on his wife.  He said he became unfaithful like it was something that happened to him rather than a choice he made.  And then when he was in court facing down federal charges his demeanor was of someone who was there for a traffic ticket.  He clearly did not see himself as accountable for any of his actions.  My big issue with him was that while he was claiming to be this model Christian he was doing some pretty horrible things and was only stopped when secular authorities stepped in.  So, yes, I hold him to a higher standard on that part because someone who is truly transformed by their acceptance of Jesus does not keep going back and wallowing in sinful behaviors.  

I wish I could like this post 100 times.

[merylinkid]

I would not trust his parents to supervise him -- they knew about his behavior years ago and swept it under the rug.   

I would not trust Anna to supervise because having a husband is more important to her than anything else.   

The federal judge would not release  him on bond to his home because he didn't trust anyone there would report any violations.    That's why he had to stay at the Rebers until trial.   The same thing would happen once he was on supervised release, none of them would report violations then either.  The ones who would won't be anywhere around Josh.   

[Notabug]

The thing is, when he was out on bail, the judge did allow his children to visit when accompanied by Anna.  Even though he lived elsewhere, there was no mention of anyone else being present to monitor visits with the kids.  And, as noted above, the documents pertaining to terms of his parole once he is released do not mention anyone but Anna, his parents or other designated responsible party (probably his adult sibs) needing to be present when Josh is around children.

Ideally, yes, he should have someone with nothing at stake should he fail to monitor his behavior around kids and, yes, Anna and his parents are more likely to overlook transgressions than a neutral third party; but, who would that be?  There are not enough social workers or children's services employees available for the sort of nearly 24/7 supervision Josh would require, nor could the county, or Josh, for that matter, afford to pay them.  The state does what it can to monitor these people, but, in the end, it's up to all of us as citizens to observe and report if something is amiss.  It ain't great, but there is no viable alternative.

I do agree that the fact that Josh has always presented himself as being more worthy, more faithful, more Christian than the rest of us does make me feel more critical of his many failures.  If you set yourself up as a sterling example, then you'd best walk the walk.  It happens in other circumstances, too.  Think Bill Cosby.  Or Kevin Spacey to a lesser extent.  Cosby spent a lot of his time presenting himself as a spokesperson for family values and ethics and plain old good citizenship.  Not so much religious, but conscientious and principled.  His fall from grace was steeper and more catastrophic, but he's the one who climbed up on that pedestal in the first place.  Josh did much the same and his fall has been steeper because of it.

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

His fall from grace was steeper and more catastrophic, but he's the one who climbed up on that pedestal in the first place.  Josh did much the same and his fall has been steeper because of it.

And this is true of the entire family thanks to Jim Bob and Michelle too. They're the ones who kept presenting that their family was somehow more wholesome and godly than everyone else and also instilled Josh with the idea that he's superior as the eldest son, while they're sitting on top of his numerous sex scandals. 

[emma675]

That's what kills me, they knew full well what their son had been doing, under their own roof to their own daughters, and Jim Bob and Michelle still had the audacity to present themselves as the perfect Christian family to millions. All while judging others. Their son was a predator and they just tried to sweep it under the rug like it was no big deal.

[Zella]

16 minutes ago, emma675 said:

That's what kills me, they knew full well what their son had been doing, under their own roof to their own daughters, and Jim Bob and Michelle still had the audacity to present themselves as the perfect Christian family to millions. All while judging others. Their son was a predator and they just tried to sweep it under the rug like it was no big deal.

Yes I actually do have sympathies for families who find themselves in this situation. It would be heartbreaking as a parent to discover one of your kids is preying on your other children (I say that not as a parent but just as someone with basic levels of empathy).

I do not, however, have sympathy for people who then continue to prioritize the child who's a predator at the expense of the other children. (And I firmly believe even the siblings who weren't attacked were still victims of the bizarre household rules the molestations led to, which then policed opposite-sex sibling interactions. That's not healthy or fair to the other brothers who didn't molest their sisters or their sisters who suddenly can't spend time with their non predator-brothers without their parents making it weird.) Nor do I have sympathy for people who also then continue to go on sanctimoniously making a career out of judging other people for wearing pants and peddling misogyny and child abuse under the veneer of godliness while this is going on in their own house. Both of which the Duggars did for years.

I'm not judging them because they're Christian. I'm a believer too. But I think their behavior is noxious and they've well earned the scorn being heaped on them. They're reaping the consequences of their own actions. 

Edited April 2 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

After Scandal #1, when they starting filming I think JB&M thought of themselves as superior Christians and felt Jesus had bestowed some kind of forgiveness he saves only for the special ones.

By the time Scandal #2 rolled around I think they had one toe in reality, but were really sitting with the devil made Josh do it, he needs to repent and be saved again.

Then the third scandal - for JB it wasn't about guilt or innocence, or religion, it was about saving his son from jail and saving the show and the family's image. For Michelle is was more about thinking she could fix Josh. By the end of the trial, I think most, even JB&M believed he was guilty - to some degree.

So while they did hold themselves up as superior Christians, I think there was a process to get where even they began to know they weren't all that special and Gothard's promises were BS.

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

By the end of the trial, I think most, even JB&M believed he was guilty - to some degree.

I agree, and I've wondered if this is part of why Michelle never attended the trial. 

[Notabug]

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

I agree, and I've wondered if this is part of why Michelle never attended the trial. 

I think Michelle couldn't bear to face the truth about her baby boy, the golden child.  And, even moreso, she couldn't bear to face the phalanx of reporters shouting questions at her about the 'sin in the camp' and her role in enabliing it.  She's more than happy to ride in the parade, baby on her breast or accept an award for mother of the year; she cannot face the truth about herself, that her mothering skills weren't as great as she liked to pretend, her kid was seriously messed up and all the interventions they concocted with the help of their brethren did nothing to change Josh' ultimate course and may even have made things worse.

[Zella]

20 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I think Michelle couldn't bear to face the truth about her baby boy, the golden child.  And, even moreso, she couldn't bear to face the phalanx of reporters shouting questions at her about the 'sin in the camp' and her role in enabliing it.  She's more than happy to ride in the parade, baby on her breast or accept an award for mother of the year; she cannot face the truth about herself, that her mothering skills weren't as great as she liked to pretend, her kid was seriously messed up and all the interventions they concocted with the help of their brethren did nothing to change Josh' ultimate course and may even have made things worse.

I can totally buy that too! I also think that's why Jim Bob was so defiant. Josh undermines what he's built his entire family and identity on, so of course he's going to double down. That being said, I did find Jill's comments from her book about Michelle's irritation with Josh in the middle of the scandals interesting. 

[Iguessnot]

Josh was diddling his sisters which is incestuous, but I don't hear that said plainly. Kind of ironic that their son was the fox in the henhouse, while they projected a holier than thou demeanor.

[Salacious Kitty]

And when he landed the job at the FRC, he certainly thought that everything was dead and buried.

Edited April 2 by Salacious Kitty

[Salacious Kitty]

The Feds were granted an extension to respond to Gelfand's plea to the Supreme Court. They now have until 4/29 to respond. 

[sixlets]

9 hours ago, Notabug said:

I think Michelle couldn't bear to face the truth about her baby boy, the golden child.  And, even moreso, she couldn't bear to face the phalanx of reporters shouting questions at her about the 'sin in the camp' and her role in enabliing it.  She's more than happy to ride in the parade, baby on her breast or accept an award for mother of the year; she cannot face the truth about herself, that her mothering skills weren't as great as she liked to pretend, her kid was seriously messed up and all the interventions they concocted with the help of their brethren did nothing to change Josh' ultimate course and may even have made things worse.

Don't forget taking the ducks/swans/penguins (I obviously wasn't paying enough attention around the pond or hotel lobby.

In all seriousness, I think JB&M look at transgressions on a scale. Not cleaning your jurisdiction might get you extra chores.  That would be an appropriate punishment.  Josh goes and does what he did with his sisters, and now all of a sudden THIS indiscretion, they all know something has to be said, it's not going away. So, instead of just coming out and telling the truth, they begin treating the ingestion as though he just had some random traffic violations.  

And on the comment earlier about what's the difference between Josh and other athletes, politicians, etc..it's solely about hypocrisy.  JB&M have always covered anything that is untoward of the whole family or just members.  What Josh did affected the entire family from the top down.  JB was out telling people Josh was innocent left and right.  NEVER in his simple mind think he would be a convicted felon facing 12 years.  

Josh is exactly where he should be.  As for seeing his kids when he's out, I would be surprised if the judge asked the kids their feelings on the matter.  A majority of them will be in their mid to late teens, and it seems like that when judges will ask them directly.  

Thank you for coming to my TedTalk.  (I have a doozy of a post for the PC, but I'm not sure I'm ready to share it yet.  Let's just say Easter was a bad Holy Day.

[GeeGolly]

Tomorrow will be Anna's third Mother's Day without Josh. In June it will be the 3rd Father's Day the kids will have a dad in prison.

Many, if not most, incarcerated folks would be filled with increased remorse and sadness when holidays come around. They would feel bad for their spouse and their children. Yet with Josh I truly believe he makes every holiday (and every day) in prison about him.

Will he call Anna and his parents? If he does, will he make it about them or him? I think we all know the answer.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Tomorrow will be Anna's third Mother's Day without Josh. In June it will be the 3rd Father's Day the kids will have a dad in prison.

Many, if not most, incarcerated folks would be filled with increased remorse and sadness when holidays come around. They would feel bad for their spouse and their children. Yet with Josh I truly believe he makes every holiday (and every day) in prison about him.

Will he call Anna and his parents? If he does, will he make it about them or him? I think we all know the answer.

Josh was raised to be selfish, to think of himself as above everyone else; and it was his parents and then Anna, who perpetuated that sort of thinking.  So, if Josh cannot be bothered to send his mom or his wife Mother's Day greetings, I wouldn't be surprised but I have limited sympathy for Michelle and Anna.  I do feel for the kids because I expect Anna is not going to be a ray of sunshine on MD and its too bad they have to be raised in an atmosphere where their mother constantly puts their father ahead of them.  I don't see her enjoying cards or breakfast in bed or any other surprises very much when Joshie isn't there

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Josh was raised to be selfish, to think of himself as above everyone else; and it was his parents and then Anna, who perpetuated that sort of thinking.  So, if Josh cannot be bothered to send his mom or his wife Mother's Day greetings, I wouldn't be surprised but I have limited sympathy for Michelle and Anna.  I do feel for the kids because I expect Anna is not going to be a ray of sunshine on MD and its too bad they have to be raised in an atmosphere where their mother constantly puts their father ahead of them.  I don't see her enjoying cards or breakfast in bed or any other surprises very much when Joshie isn't there

While I agree others have an impact on personality, I think the days of blaming parents, or more specifically moms, died a few decades after Freud did.

IMO, Josh would be Josh no matter how he was raised or who raised him.

[Notabug]

34 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

While I agree others have an impact on personality, I think the days of blaming parents, or more specifically moms, died a few decades after Freud did.

IMO, Josh would be Josh no matter how he was raised or who raised him.

I agree with you there, but Michelle and Anna did a masterful job of enabling his narcissism which makes me less concerned about their feelings as he continues to be the person he always was, the one they both showered loved and approval.

[Sweetpea12]

Did I read it here that Priscilla is expecting again?

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, Sweetpea12 said:

Did I read it here that Priscilla is expecting again?

Yes, she is due with a girl in July. 

[Sweetpea12]

2 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Yes, she is due with a girl in July. 

Thanks!

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Yes, she is due with a girl in July. 

I can't keep up with all these babies. I know its an even year so that tracks. Does a girl fit their pattern too?

[Salacious Kitty]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

I can't keep up with all these babies. I know its an even year so that tracks. Does a girl fit their pattern too?

Nope. Should have been a boy. 😀

[Albanyguy]

15 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Nope. Should have been a boy. 😀

I hope David doesn’t blame Priscilla for messing up their picture-perfect family order.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

I hope David doesn’t blame Priscilla for messing up their picture-perfect family order.

I hope someone tells David sperm is responsible for the gender.

[satrunrose]

Apologies for being pedantic, but sperm is responsible for the sex. A whole bunch of as yet poorly understood biochemical fun is responsible for the gender. 

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Apologies for being pedantic, but sperm is responsible for the sex. A whole bunch of as yet poorly understood biochemical fun is responsible for the gender. 

THANK YOU!

[jschoolgirl]

23 hours ago, Notabug said:

I agree with you there, but Michelle and Anna did a masterful job of enabling his narcissism which makes me less concerned about their feelings as he continues to be the person he always was, the one they both showered loved and approval.

Well, Anna was raised to do that; she knows nothing else.

But Michelle chose that value system and way of life.

[crazy8s]

Edit to change this is not the Supreme Court.

This is the Fed's response to Josh's petition.

Warning contains graphic content.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-937/310307/20240521132807655_23-937_Duggar_final.pdf

Edited May 23 by crazy8s

[CalicoKitty]

How much in lawyer's fees did this appeal cost Jim Bob?  The way the prosecutor presented the situation, it is apparent that the defense had an opportunity to present the witness and that they decided not to call him.  This seems like a waste of money.

[Absolom]

Total and absolute waste of time and money, IMO.  Only someone as deluded as Jim Bob would have pursued it. 

[Salacious Kitty]

2 hours ago, crazy8s said:

Supreme court rejects Joshua's appeal.

Warning contains graphic content.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-937/310307/20240521132807655_23-937_Duggar_final.pdf

This is the Fed's response to Josh's petition. The last page says the writ SHOULD BE denied, not that it has been denied. 

They were granted an extension to 5/24, IIRC, so this submission tracks. 

[awaken]

3 hours ago, crazy8s said:

Supreme court rejects Joshua's appeal.

Warning contains graphic content.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-937/310307/20240521132807655_23-937_Duggar_final.pdf

Great news 

[GeeGolly]

I guess that ends Anna's "more to the story". Time for her to start a new script.

[crazy8s]

8 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

This is the Fed's response to Josh's petition. The last page says the writ SHOULD BE denied, not that it has been denied. 

They were granted an extension to 5/24, IIRC, so this submission tracks. 

thanks for the correction on that

[Salacious Kitty]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I guess that ends Anna's "more to the story". Time for her to start a new script.

It's not over. Yet. 

[Salacious Kitty]

Anna retuned to Twitter today after a two year hiatus. 

Edited May 31 by Salacious Kitty

[irisheyes]

So did Derick. Hmm. . . 🤣🤣

[YupItsMe]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna retuned to Twitter today after a two year hiatus. 

Oh? What’d she say?

[emma675]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna retuned to Twitter today after a two year hiatus. 

Is she back to tell us there's "more to the story?" 🤣

[auntieminem]

I don't have X but on reddit duggar snark they have lots of responses to her tweet. ouch She is so dim.

ETA: Removed copy of tweet. Go to reddit or X to see. 

 

Edited May 31 by auntieminem

[crazy8s]

10 hours ago, auntieminem said:

I don't have X but on reddit duggar snark they have lots of responses to her tweet. ouch She is so dim.

The best response was something like "and it also only took 12 votes to put your child abusing husband in prison.....go figure"

Edited May 31 by crazy8s

[GeeGolly]

Whoa, Anna is really blind to the facts. Should we open the jails and let everyone out? 

[AstridM]

15 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna retuned to Twitter today after a two year hiatus. 

I saw. I detest her more than I can express. 😡😡😡

4 hours ago, crazy8s said:

The best response was something like "and it also only took 12 votes to put your child abusing husband in prison.....go figure"

Yeah, she got BURNED! 

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Whoa, Anna is really blind to the facts. Should we open the jails and let everyone out? 

And send them right over to the warehouse. 

[DXD526]

A fave comment left on Anna's new X contribution: 'At least Melania has a husband!'

[AstridM]

6 minutes ago, DXD526 said:

A fave comment left on Anna's new X contribution: 'At least Melania has a husband!'

And a lot of posters on Reddit then made THAT their flair! 😆😆😆

[Natalie68]

9 minutes ago, AstridM said:

And a lot of posters on Reddit then made THAT their flair! 😆😆😆

HA! I had to respond to her tweet as well.  

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, Natalie68 said:

HA! I had to respond to her tweet as well.  

Well done! I don’t use xitter anymore but those comments made my day. 

[quarks]

(head in hands)

Surely someone, somewhere, in that mess of Duggars, adjacents, and random people at the supermarket, has told Anna exactly what I would tell her right now: she needs to stay off social media for at least another three to four years, possibly longer.

No exceptions.