S02.E08: What Was Meant To Be

[AnimeMania]

(Season Finale)

Fate leads Rand and the others to an inevitable showdown with their most formidable enemies yet.

Premiere Date: October 6, 2023    Prime Video   

[bluestocking]

That was dramatic!

Glad to see our team all getting their powers back.  Too much fighting for me, but to be expected of a season finale.  

So is Ishameal totally eternally dead now?  I'm enjoying Lanfear and glad to see she survived.  

 

 

 

[AnimeMania]

I was wondering why Elayne can heal Rand, but can't heal herself?

Mat must really know how to tie good knots.

[quarks]

Pretty packed episode!

1. Moghedien! Another brilliant bit of casting - just delightfully creepy and spidery. And loved that her weaves look just like a spider-web. 

(And did I hear the name Sammael, answering one question some of us have had? I think I did!)

2. Hopper, getting told to stay safe, deciding not to stay safe, and then -- sniffle. Oh Hopper. At least you were hopping as your wolf soul drifted upwards.

3. Admittedly, I have limited to no medical knowledge, but that said, I'm still not 100% percent sure that the best way to handle an arrow in the leg is to push the arrow through the leg and then KEEP WALKING on it AND CLIMB SEVERAL FLIGHTS OF STAIRS which leads me to SERIOUSLY QUESTION NYNAEVE'S SKILLS HERE like, sure, push the arrow through, I guess, but also sure, bed rest and elevation seems like the next correct move.

You definitely need to spend more time with the Yellow Ajah, Nynaeve!

I did like her admitting that Elayne would be more useful at the top of the tower than she would be.

 

1 minute ago, AnimeMania said:

I was wondering why Elayne can heal Rand, but can't heal herself?

 

In the first season, Moiraine said that Aes Sedai can heal others, but not themselves. 

4. Speaking of questionable things with arrows, glad to see the TV tradition of grabbing arrows in midair survives!  (No, we haven't forgotten you, Oliver Queen!)

5. Egwene! Working out how exactly the sul'dam made those collars work, and then using that knowledge to put one on Renna. 

Kinda wondering how she and Rand are going to deal with the fact that both of them killed quite a few people there, including civilians, though. (Perrin, Mat, Aviendha, Bain, and Chiad only killed soldiers; I don't think that Loial, Nynaeve and Elayne killed anyone.)

6. Mat! Figuring out just how to get that dagger to work for him without actually touching that dagger, not once but three times.  Even if the third time went....less than well.

7. Still Mat! Realizing that yes, he's a hero. Awwww. And then -

8. immediately falling for Ishamael's trick and stabbing Rand, after being warned by Min that this could happen, like, you know, maybe carrying evil daggers around in Rand's vicinity was not the best idea, even if said dagger was safely attached to a spear. Maybe doubly with said dagger safely attached to a spear.

9. "Let's see what you need to be a blademaster on this side of the ocean!" "Mad saidin skills."  Very Raiders of the Lost Ark, but hey, I laughed.

10. On a similar note: "How do we open this trick box?" "We just....cut through it." I mean, it's been done before, but hey, I laughed.

11. Imagine calling every single country and the Amyrlin Seat for help and only getting the Whitecloaks. Yikes. Though they were remarkably effective - and I did appreciate the irony that they managed both to kill a Sitter of the Blue Ajah and create the situation that allowed Egwene to free herself with one well timed catapult.

And the irony that the Seanchan training was probably what helped Egwene resist/fight Ishamael until help could arrive and Rand's shield could be broken.

11. And Lanfear, going to all that effort to drown her fellow Forsaken only to have Ishamael anticipate her and just...set all the Forsaken free. Horrifying even Lanfear. (To be fair, given that one scene with Moghedien, I'm kinda horrified too!)

I'm not sure all of it landed - we didn't really see enough of show Ingtar, for instance, to feel much at his death. And some of the timing felt a little off - like, Suroth was still in the city when the damane were up at the tower, and I have to assume it would have taken her at least some time to row out to the boats and take her position, ready to shield Rand. (Also, how did the damane find Rand? I guess I'm just going to have to handwave some bits here.) And I kinda wanted a bit more of Aviendha, Bain and Chiad. And I definitely think we could have spent just a touch more time with Dain to get that moment to sink through.

But hey, Mat realized he's a hero; Egwene was able to resist Ishamael for just long enough to let help arrive; Perrin helped shield her; Elayne managed to keep Rand from bleeding out; and we got to see an actual dragon. And The Dragon.

May season three arrive swiftly on the winds of Prime! 

[go4luca]

I really enjoyed the finale.  It was also great to finally see the intro back.  I’d missed it.

One of my favorite scenes was seeing Egwene keep her promise to Renna.

Least favorite scene:  Hopper.  🥺

[thuganomics85]

Hey, we got full length opening credits again!  Kind of missed those for the entire season.  I actually think they are really underrated and well done.

Thank goodness they decided to actually film everything in the day for once because there was a lot of action here to say the least!  Love that the majority of the main characters played a part in the eventual win and all of the cast had a moment or two to shine.  It really was a group effort!

I'll give the devils their due: the White Cloaks did a way better job than I thought they would.  Honestly, they probably had the Seanchan's number no matter what. Loved them kicking things off by using white smoke to cloud their attack.  Granted, this was definitely a case where both teams suck and I wasn't shedding any tears for majority of the deaths, but in this case, I guess psycho religious cult is slightly better than slavers.

Of course, there were some exceptions like the sacrifice of Ingtar and especially Perrin's wolf buddy!  Show didn't pull any punches there.  At least a wolf ragey Perrin did avenge him, but I'm guessing this is going to lead to the son; who mainly came off more reasonable compared to the other Cloaks; becoming more bloodthirsty and wanting revenge.  I'm sure those bastards will find some way to cause more chaos.

Heh, love that Padan Fain managed to scurry off again.  That weasel is probably un-killable!

Nice try with attempting to avoid the prophecy, Mat, by using the knife as a spear and not actually touching it, but those damn prophecies always find a way!

Egwene getting her revenge on Renna was definitely the hell yeah moment to top all hell yeah moments.

Aww, Moiraine and Lan are bonded again!  I knew those two crazy kids would work it out.  Already back to doing some classic bits like fighting off soldiers in sync.  And just nodding your head and not being too bothered when your Aes Sedai is like "Your damn right I would sacrifice hundreds of innocents to protect Rand!"  That just comes with the territory!

Nynaeve definitely seemed to skip a lot of steps with getting Elayne from arrow to the knee to walking up flights of stairs (did she even bandage the wound?), but it's still good to get confirmation that Elayne is a badass and definitely worth of joining the squad.

So, I'm guessing Ishamel/The Dark One is now actually "dead dead" and there will be no more resurrections.  Judging from the cold opening and his reaction at the end, he might actually welcome it.  Fares Fares was splendid in this role.

It initially looks like Lanfear came out ahead since everything that happened was part of her plan, but it turns out that as a final "Fuck you", Ishamel released the other six Forsaken already: lead by this Moghedien who is creepy with a capital C.  And they don't have the fondness for The Dragon Reborn like Lanfear (and Ishamel) do, so that is going to be a problem for Rand and everyone around him.  At least Lanfear is still around, so I wonder if she will be shifting to a reluctant ally.  I mean, I won't complain because I'm all for her and her badass outfits to stick around (and annoy the others.)

Glad the Two Rivers gang are back together and hopefully Moiraine/Lan will be joining them after their stroll on the beach.

Pretty great season, in my opinion, and then is coming from someone who enjoyed the first season more than others.  But it felt like almost every aspect of this show was improved upon (outside of their need to film so many action scenes in the dark), and just felt like a more confident and put together show.  Returning cast stepped up their game as well and delivered on all fronts, with my personal highlights being Rosamund Pike, Fares Fares, and especially Madeline Maddon.  And the new additions more than match them, with both Ceara Coveney and Natasha O'Keeffe being the standouts out of the season/show. 

Hope they keep this momentum going and I hope more people give this show another shot.  Really want to see more this world and its characters.

[RachelKM]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Pretty great season, in my opinion, and then is coming from someone who enjoyed the first season more than others.

Same.  I liked the first season and still viewed this as an improvement.  I was particularly impressed with the fact that it split nearly the entire main returning cast, pairing only 2-3 at a time at most and often only briefly, and managed not to feel disjointed or uneven. And bringing them all together in the finale felt earned; and loved all of them contributing.

Also, the Dragon Fire Banner was pretty awesome.

And yay to Mat realizing he was and is a hero.  

Super glad Moiraine and Lan resumed their bond. I knew the "we are not equals" was Moraine thinking Lan is the better person. I wasn't surprised Lan didn't see it. But it was clear to anyone who saw them together or Moiraine on her own. 

Looking forward to everyone getting back together in Season 3 ... and also straight looking forward to Season 3

Not gonna get over Hopper for a minute, tho.

Edited October 6, 2023 by RachelKM

[JonasArm]

Egwene putting the collar doesn't make sense though. We know that she can't touch anything she wants to use as a weapon... but she could grab it and put it around her slaver's neck? Not withcounting that she hung her by the collar but Renna couldn't attack Egwene.

[Chicago Redshirt]

23 minutes ago, JonasArm said:

Egwene putting the collar doesn't make sense though. We know that she can't touch anything she wants to use as a weapon... but she could grab it and put it around her slaver's neck? Not withcounting that she hung her by the collar but Renna couldn't attack Egwene.

A couple possibilities that occur to me:

1. Renna might have been lying/exaggerating/underestimating E when she said that E couldn't touch anything she wants to use as a weapon. 

2. The rule that she can't use weapons only applies to normal, non-magical items. As we learned from N, the collars are apparently semi-sentient and want to be put around a woman. So that may have helped E get it on Renna. Like I doubt that E could have just beaten Renna to death with the collar.

3. The act of putting the collar on Renna may not count as use of a weapon in the strictest sense. The whole twisted BDSM of the relationship might mean under normal circumstances any "hurt" that E inflicted was not treated the same as hurt to kill or incapacitate.

4. Renna needed to actively concentrate to stop E from using things as weapons against her, and she let her guard down.

As to Renna's inability to attack/counter-attack E, I would chalk that up to a few things as well:

1. E is so much stronger than Renna when it comes to the One Power.

2. E has endured months of torture and pain at the hands of Renna and is thus able to withstand the feedback both are in. Meanwhile, Renna has been pampered and has probably never felt pain, making it tough for her to concentrate and impossible for her to fight back.

3. Renna's whole philosophy has been based on the notion that women who can channel must be subdued by these collars and are basically subhuman scum who deserve their punishment. The surprise and shock of finding out that she happens to be a woman who can channel probably shocked her on some level as much as the physical pain and the fact that E took this action.

[Ariah]

1 hour ago, JonasArm said:

Egwene putting the collar doesn't make sense though. We know that she can't touch anything she wants to use as a weapon... but she could grab it and put it around her slaver's neck? Not withcounting that she hung her by the collar but Renna couldn't attack Egwene.

It may also be that a collar does not consider itself to ever be a weapon, rather a gift. Or, since the act has never been done, there are no safety protocoles around it: collar encountered exception unknown error:)

I really loved this season, this episode I got teary eyed a couple of times and for different reasons: Hopper, Heroes of the Horn, standoff against Ishmael, sinking of the ships… so many great moments!

On the funny side, Rand’s Indiana Jones moment was a nice touch. And the tough prisoner guy (whose name escaped me and is now gone forever) saying: „I’ll hold them off!” and then perishing on his next breath. 

[quarks]

2 hours ago, JonasArm said:

Egwene putting the collar doesn't make sense though. We know that she can't touch anything she wants to use as a weapon... but she could grab it and put it around her slaver's neck? Not withcounting that she hung her by the collar but Renna couldn't attack Egwene.

I didn't think that Egwene was using the collar as a weapon? When she put it on Renna the intent wasn't to stab/bruise/hit Renna, but control Renna. I think the analogy was more like putting a leash on a dog or a cat - you aren't trying to harm them, whatever the cat may think about it. And Nynaeve said something earlier this season about the collar wanting to be complete/healed, so the collar wants to be used, even if that use ends up choking someone to death?

I did have that "uh, wait, isn't this a weapon?" thought about Moiraine this episode, though - supposedly she's sworn an oath not to use the One Power as a weapon against anyone other than Shadowspawn, except in the last line of defense for the life of herself or her Warder. The Seanchan are horrible, horrible people, but they aren't Shadowspawn, and although I think she could have used the One Power against the people who were directly attacking her and Rand on the beach, I thought it was a bit of a stretch for her to be able to attack the ships. Maybe she could sorta get around that oath by attacking the ships and not the people directly, but...uh, generally if you blow up a ship, people on the ship are going to get hurt. So that was one of a couple of elements that didn't quite work for me this episode - although it did look cool and I'm always here to see Bad Things Happen to Suroth, my leading candidate for Most Annoying Character On This Show. 

Similar thought about the Blue Ajah Sitter killed in this episode - how was she attacking anyone, even while under the sul'dam's control? Renna had trouble getting Egwene to do that, and Egwene hasn't sworn anything on the Oath Rod.

[Megras]

Given how the Aes Sedai can get around the “tell no lies” by rules layering. I have no doubt they can do the same for “not a weapon”. 

[paigow]

Batman has a loophole for his No Kill rule... Sorry Bro, just not going to save you...

39 minutes ago, Megras said:

Given how the Aes Sedai can get around the “tell no lies” by rules layering. I have no doubt they can do the same for “not a weapon”. 

 

[Danny Franks]

Happy to get the full credit sequence back for the finale. That was a nice surprise

I love that the Seanchan have battle makeup. They're so extra and ridiculous. But Renna cutting Egwene's braid off genuinely made me gasp.

I enjoyed seeing Nynaeve put a sul'dam in her place, even if Elayne was too squeamish to watch. I didn't like Egwene freeing herself before anyone else could help her. Just felt a bit lame.

Mat realising he's a hero and blowing the Horn. That's what his entire story this far has been leading up to.

The reveal of the Heroes of the Horn was kind of crazy. I liked how different and cool they all looked. Having Uno be one was a great reveal, and satisfies an old theory people had from the books, that Uno was the reincarnation of one of the Heroes.

Rand's hero moment with the Seanchan leader was pretty cool. I liked the fake-out of Turak expecting a big swordfight, and Rand just guts him with the One Power. Very Indiana Jones.

The accidental stabbing by Mat was... kind of goofy, to be honest. I did like Ishy talking shit at them both afterwards.

But killing Ishamael (if he's dead), was very anticlimactic. I don't really know how they could have written it, but this didn't quite work for me.

Hopper's death... man, that was horrible. I knew it was going to happen, but that wolfdog was too good an actor. The look on her face...

Lanfear is just the best. Clearly playing her own game and happy to stab anyone and everyone in the back, apart from Rand. Maybe. It makes complete sense that she doesn't want her fellow Forsaken free, to interfere with her plans.

But it looks like Ishy outsmarted her this time. And now we've got another absolutely batshit crazy, ancient evil channeler (well, six more, but just one for now). Hi Moghedien, you complete loon.

 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I love that the Seanchan have battle makeup. They're so extra and ridiculous. But Renna cutting Egwene's braid off genuinely made me gasp.

I gasped too! Somehow that was the most shocking moment in this episode for me. Just when you think there's nothing else Renna can do to strip Egwene of her identity (aside from changing her mind about letting Egwene keep her name), she goes and does that shit. She's lucky Nynaeve wasn't there to see that. Guaranteed that would have brought enough anger for Nynaeve to channel. 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I liked the fake-out of Turak expecting a big swordfight, and Rand just guts him with the One Power. Very Indiana Jones.

It made me laugh but I have to admit this was a little disappointing to me. I was really hoping to see how far Rand had come with using his heron marked blade. Considering how Rand was inactive for most of this battle it would have been nice if his fight scene with Turak had been a little longer. I was expecting him to be able to handle fighting all of those guys by using a combo of the One Power and his sword fighting skills, so it was kind of an anticlimactic moment for me even if I did appreciate the Indiana Jones nod.

And speaking of crossing franchises, there were multiple moments where I felt Rand had a Jedi look going on with when the hood of his cloak was up. 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

And now we've got another absolutely batshit crazy, ancient evil channeler (well, six more, but just one for now). Hi Moghedien, you complete loon.

Moghedien is wacky and weird, and I'm here for it. Love the spiderwebs and how freaked out Lanfear looked. This might have been my favorite moment in this excellent episode. I can't wait to meet the other Forsaken. The show has done an awesome job with all of the ones we've met. 

[MissLucas]

 

16 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I was wondering why Elayne can heal Rand, but can't heal herself?

Aes Sedai can't heal themselves. Back in season one Moraine needed Nynaeve's help to heal.

Okay, this was all kinds of awesome. Except: did I see that right Nynaeve pushed the arrow through without first removing the fletching??? Eeek! Hello blood poisoning. Hopefully Moraine or Egwene will take care of that wound.

And how much does it suck when you call for help and only the Whitecloaks show up? I mean they were pretty impressive but what the hell were the rest of the kings and queens thinking?

So much to unravel: Moraine and Land being bonded again. Mat being a trickster and putting his staff fighting skills to good use (we'll ignore that last bit) and finding his true identity. Egwene keeping her word in the most gruesome way possible. But this and everything else she went through will haunt her for a good while. I thoroughly enjoyed Moraine's Battle of Blackwater moment. And I would not have thought that she has such a flair for dramatic effects. That dragon was awesome.

I'm really impressed how much the show improved this season. Hopefully they can keep this up!

[tennisgurl]

See show? See how great your fight scenes can be when you don't film in the fucking dark for every scene!!

As someone who liked last season more than I think a lot of people did, I think this season was a huge improvement. Better acting, more interesting characterization, I really liked the new characters, a quicker pacing, this season just flew by I was having so much fun. This was a solid season finale, I loved seeing the whole gang together, especially their confused but thrilled reactions to bumping into each other over and over in the middle of this huge battle. That giant fire dragon looked awesome, I guess the secret is out now about the Dragon Reborn being...reborn. 

You know things are bad when all of your last hope is the Whitecloaks. The big fights with them were pretty awesome though, I guess between them and the Seanchan their slightly the lesser of two evils. Although I can appreciate how extra the Seanchan are, of course they all wear battle makeup when they go into combat, that's so on brand. 

I totally cheered when Egwene turned the tables on Renna, she had that coming times ten after what she did. Very glad that Egwene is free now, but she really went through a lot, I can imagine its something that you need time to recover from. At least she has all of her old friends again, plus Elayne, her new ride of die bestie. 

Poor Hopper! No!! He was such a good boy!

Awww Mat found his power and got to be a hero. He at least tried to avoid the prophesy, but he kinda still screwed it up. Oh Mat, you tried, and you used your trickster tendencies for good, this is still a win. 

So good seeing Moraine and Lan on the same page again, I hated seeing them so at odds. Thankfully Moraine apologized for saying such crappy things to Lan to push him away, and just in time for even more drama. 

I just love Lanfear so much, its like she's a kettle of crazy always about ready to burst, I cant get enough of her happy evil smiles. Although this new Forsaken might give her a run for her money when it comes to fun crazy, she even managed to make Lanfear looked freaked out. I wonder if she was like "is this how I seem to people?"

Rand just pulling an Indiana Jones on the big fight was pretty hilarious, almost as funny as Mat making fun of his new hair. 

This season was a big improvement on the first, I hope that people who gave up after the first season give it another chance, I'm impressed. Cant wait for season three!

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm so glad to get a flashback! They really did up the Ways here. Wow. Although odd you'd put one right in the middle of a lake. Totally worth it for their one-on-one conversation.

You're not going to find me saying much anything nice about the Whitecloaks, but Bornhold was right; these are slavers and invaders, and no one else came to the defense of Falme. 

Nynaeve does. Not. Play. I kind of wish people did what I wanted when I yelled at them. 

I really enjoyed Mat struggling with the dagger. Good work there. Fain tempting him was really smooth too. Good for Mat. 

I was so relieved they nicked the horn! 

Well, for being untrained, Rand sure knows how to kill people. Between him and Nynaeve taking the gloves off, they could kick Seanchan out alone. 

So so so smart Egwene figuring out about the slavers being channelers. Weak, cowardly, Renna. 

I liked how time slowed when Mat blew the horn. That was a cool take. Awesome effect. 

Egwene is having a VERY BAD DAY AND IS IN  MOOD. Wow.

That was unreal. 

[ShannaB]

I thought this was a very good finale for an excellent Season but I rage about Hopper.  I am beyond tired of filmmakers introducing animal characters only to kill them off.  I literally cringed when I first saw Hopper because I knew he was a goner.  Here he was used to give the Prince of the Whitecloaks  a vendetta against Perrin next Season.  Cheap trick.

I have extensive TV and movie medical knowledge, LOL, so even I knew that you break off the fletching before pushing the arrow shaft through the wound.  That was hard to watch but kudos to Elayne getting  up and making it ALL the way up that tower!

After all the trauma this Season, I am expecting Egwene to be a totally different person next Season.  I may have read the scene wrong but it seemed that Mat showed a definite interest in Elayne.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by ShannaB

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, ShannaB said:

I may have read the scene wrong but it seemed that Mat showed a definite interest in Elayne.

 

Mat has a definite interest in ANY woman... so you are correct...

[DoctorAtomic]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. E has endured months of torture and pain at the hands of Renna and is thus able to withstand the feedback both are in. Meanwhile, Renna has been pampered and has probably never felt pain, making it tough for her to concentrate and impossible for her to fight back.

Add to that E is straight fury. 

10 hours ago, quarks said:

The Seanchan are horrible, horrible people, but they aren't Shadowspawn, and although I think she could have used the One Power against the people who were directly attacking her and Rand on the beach, I thought it was a bit of a stretch for her to be able to attack the ships.

They've been touched by the shadow though because Ishamael has manipulated them, and Suroth is a darkfriend. That was the ship that got hit maintaining the shield. Moiraine never swore an oath pertaining to collateral damage. 

She can't tell a lie, and she was quite clear on what lengths she'd go to in order to make sure Rand doesn't die. 

It's cool that the show has a 'look' for a shield so we know what's coming. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[Blue Plastic]

This was an awesome episode (and season), and I'm so pleasantly surprised. I must admit I was pretty disappointed with season 1, but they redeemed themselves this season in every way.

The only thing that really bothered me was Hopper's death. That was terrible, and I don't care - they should have come up with another way to give Perrin and the Whitecloaks a vendetta against each other without killing poor Hopper!

Well, and the other thing that disappointed me was that Mat fell for Ishamael's illusion. However, I can forgive it since Mat was so great for the rest of the episode. Finding out he was a hero of the horn, figuring out how to use the evil dagger without being contaminated by it again, all great!

Loved Egwene getting her revenge on Renna. Mmm, sweet revenge served cold! It's great storytelling that Egwene was able to use what happened to her at the hands of the Seanchan (getting stronger in the Power, being treated as a weapon) to fight off a freaking Forsaken for any amount of time at all.

I wondered, too, about exactly how Egwene was "allowed" to place a collar on Renna, and how she was able to use the One Power against her while Renna still wore the bracelet, but ah, well, whatever. I still bought it.

What did Renna mean when she said, "Use it!" after she released Egwene from the collar. Use what...to do what?

Great scene with Moiraine and Rand talking it out, making up, and reconnecting the Warder bond. The fiery dragon that Moiraine made was great, too.

Moghedien was super creepy and even scared Lanfear. That's pretty bad.

[quarks]

15 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

What did Renna mean when she said, "Use it!" after she released Egwene from the collar. Use what...to do what?

I thought she said/meant "Lose it!" or "Loose it!"

That is, remove the collar/a'dam holding her after she released Egwene, which would serve the double purpose of a) releasing her from the a'dam and b) allowing her to drop to the ground and stop choking to death.

[Blue Plastic]

5 hours ago, quarks said:

I thought she said/meant "Lose it!" or "Loose it!"

That is, remove the collar/a'dam holding her after she released Egwene, which would serve the double purpose of a) releasing her from the a'dam and b) allowing her to drop to the ground and stop choking to death.

The closed captions said, "Please...use it." Not sure if that was an error on their part, but that's what I was going by. I thought she meant "use the Power to kill me quickly," maybe.

[quarks]

I thought Renna was begging for her life, so that could mean anything from "Use the a'dam to let me grab my collar and pull myself up just enough to stop choking to death," or "Use the Power to get me off this hook/down to the ground so I can stop choking to death," or some variant on the idea of "Please stop it."

I don't think she was asking Egwene for a quick death - after all, that death could potentially kill Egwene, and she presumably knew that Egwene wasn't suicidal. But also, I think - though this is very arguable - that right up until the very end, although Renna was frequently infuriated with and irritated by Egwene, Renna didn't hate Egwene. Thus why Renna failed to understand just how much Egwene hated her. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

The closed captions said, "Please...use it." Not sure if that was an error on their part, but that's what I was going by. I thought she meant "use the Power to kill me quickly," maybe.

Sometimes captioners are wrong. More often than I'd like, I have to rewind shows to confirm that I heard correctly and the caption was wrong, sometimes absurdly so. Since I work as an editor/proofreader for a living, I sometimes wish they would hire me.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Affogato]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:04 AM, Blue Plastic said:

This was an awesome episode (and season), and I'm so pleasantly surprised. I must admit I was pretty disappointed with season 1, but they redeemed themselves this season in every way.

The only thing that really bothered me was Hopper's death. That was terrible, and I don't care - they should have come up with another way to give Perrin and the Whitecloaks a vendetta against each other without killing poor Hopper!

Well, and the other thing that disappointed me was that Mat fell for Ishamael's illusion. However, I can forgive it since Mat was so great for the rest of the episode. Finding out he was a hero of the horn, figuring out how to use the evil dagger without being contaminated by it again, all great!

Loved Egwene getting her revenge on Renna. Mmm, sweet revenge served cold! It's great storytelling that Egwene was able to use what happened to her at the hands of the Seanchan (getting stronger in the Power, being treated as a weapon) to fight off a freaking Forsaken for any amount of time at all.

I wondered, too, about exactly how Egwene was "allowed" to place a collar on Renna, and how she was able to use the One Power against her while Renna still wore the bracelet, but ah, well, whatever. I still bought it.

What did Renna mean when she said, "Use it!" after she released Egwene from the collar. Use what...to do what?

Great scene with Moiraine and Rand talking it out, making up, and reconnecting the Warder bond. The fiery dragon that Moiraine made was great, too.

Moghedien was super creepy and even scared Lanfear. That's pretty bad.

I thought Egwene was able to place the collar on Renna because it was s surprise. She saw the collar, fell on it, grabbed it and put it on her before Renna realized what was happening. I'm also glad she rescued herself.

[Absurda]

 

On 10/6/2023 at 8:49 AM, quarks said:

Similar thought about the Blue Ajah Sitter killed in this episode - how was she attacking anyone, even while under the sul'dam's control? Renna had trouble getting Egwene to do that, and Egwene hasn't sworn anything on the Oath Rod.

I thought about this.  I'm not sure if there's an in universe explanation, but my thought was that if she disobeys she'll be harmed (tongue cut out, hands chopped off, possibly killed, etc).  So, in order to protect herself from that harm, she has to use the power against the white cloaks.  I'm open to other interpretations. 

 

On 10/7/2023 at 11:04 PM, Blue Plastic said:

What did Renna mean when she said, "Use it!" after she released Egwene from the collar. Use what...to do what?

Egwene implied she'd release Renna if Renna released her first.  I thought Renna was referring to the release button on the bracelet to release her.  Egwene had other ideas, though.

[Blue Plastic]

I thought Renna might be suicidal at that point because, assuming she grew up in the Seanchan culture, which seems likely, she's been taught since she was only a child that channelers were the lowest scum imaginable and deserved to be collared and lose their status as a sentient human. Now she finds out she is one of them, the lowest of the low. As Egwene said to her, "We're the same."

I believe at the point that Renna said, "Use it," she had released Egwene, so she had to know that Egwene could kill her at that point with no risk to herself.

I do think it is "use it," but like I said, I could be wrong. Definitely the speech recognition-generated closed captions are often terrible, but I haven't noticed as many errors with scripted shows like this one. I would hope they would use actual people to at least proofread what the engine generated.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Blue Plastic

[Danny Franks]

18 hours ago, Absurda said:

 

I thought about this.  I'm not sure if there's an in universe explanation, but my thought was that if she disobeys she'll be harmed (tongue cut out, hands chopped off, possibly killed, etc).  So, in order to protect herself from that harm, she has to use the power against the white cloaks.  I'm open to other interpretations. 

I've always understood that a lot of the Three Oaths are down to interpretation and intentions - if an Aes Sedai believes that she will be killed if she doesn't channel a fireball at someone, then she can do it. Whether that extends to fireballing random people to stop someone specific from killing her, I don't know.

It's about how each woman rationalises it in her own head. The Oaths are completely internal, rather than external controls applied by the Oath Rod.

Like with Moiraine and the Seanchan ships - she says she would "let a thousand innocents die" but she doesn't say she would kill a thousand innocents. If she's convinced herself she's only torching the ships and not the people on them, she's good to go. I suppose it takes a lot of mental control and willpower to ensure you genuinely believe what's most convenient for you.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Danny Franks

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:30 PM, Absurda said:

 

I thought about this.  I'm not sure if there's an in universe explanation, but my thought was that if she disobeys she'll be harmed (tongue cut out, hands chopped off, possibly killed, etc).  So, in order to protect herself from that harm, she has to use the power against the white cloaks.  I'm open to other interpretations. 

Lie-andrin has demonstrably violated the Oaths in using the One Power against Egwene, Nyneave and Elaine, and was implied to have done so by compelling another to cover her up her misdeeds. She also said in what we are supposed to take at face value that she has done so many times. 

So it seems to me (as a nonbookwalker) that it is possible to undo the compulsory effects of the Oaths. Originally it seemed to me like it would take the power/knoweldge of a Forsaken. But perhaps any old set of channelers could do it if they wanted to. It's just that the Jedi  Aes Sedai would not think of trying, whereas the Sith Seanchan obviously would.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Lie-andrin has demonstrably violated the Oaths in using the One Power against Egwene, Nyneave and Elaine, and was implied to have done so by compelling another to cover her up her misdeeds. She also said in what we are supposed to take at face value that she has done so many times. 

So it seems to me (as a nonbookwalker) that it is possible to undo the compulsory effects of the Oaths. Originally it seemed to me like it would take the power/knoweldge of a Forsaken. But perhaps any old set of channelers could do it if they wanted to. It's just that the Jedi  Aes Sedai would not think of trying, whereas the Sith Seanchan obviously would.

Spoiler

It's not an act of willpower on Liandrin's part. The Black Ajah remove their oaths using the Oath Rod, which they commandeer secretly during their initiations, and swear a different set of three binding them to the Shadow.

 

[Affogato]

21 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

Like with Moiraine and the Seanchan ships - she says she would "let a thousand innocents die" but she doesn't say she would kill a thousand innocents. If she's convinced herself she's only torching the ships and not the people on them, she's good to go. I suppose it takes a lot of mental control and willpower to ensure you genuinely believe what's most convenient for you.

No, this is what lets people bomb hiroshima, and lob things at civilian targets. It doesn't take a lot of mind control and willpower to believe that driving your suv will not have an effect on climate change, or that taking a job in a newly opened coal mine--or investing in oil companies for profit--are reasonable and not bad things to do. People have their reasons. Moraine's act is a fairly common act of war, and we know she believes that if the Seanchan succeed the outcome will be worse. 

Also, she is devoted to doing what she believes is right, whatever the cost.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:24 AM, Danny Franks said:

I've always understood that a lot of the Three Oaths are down to interpretation and intentions - if an Aes Sedai believes that she will be killed if she doesn't channel a fireball at someone, then she can do it. Whether that extends to fireballing random people to stop someone specific from killing her, I don't know.

It's about how each woman rationalises it in her own head. The Oaths are completely internal, rather than external controls applied by the Oath Rod.

Like with Moiraine and the Seanchan ships - she says she would "let a thousand innocents die" but she doesn't say she would kill a thousand innocents. If she's convinced herself she's only torching the ships and not the people on them, she's good to go. I suppose it takes a lot of mental control and willpower to ensure you genuinely believe what's most convenient for you.

I don't think this is so much a question of mental gymnastics or rationalization.

Moiraine knew:

-The Dragon Reborn was being confronted by one of the Forsaken

-The Seanchan on the boat were stopping the Dragon Reborn from using his power to defend himself, making him extremely vulnerable to being corrupted or killed

-Without the Dragon Reborn on the side of the Light, the entirety of (whatever these realms are called) will be in danger of death, torture, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria.

With that backdrop in mind, I don't see how nuking the ships and everyone on them violates the Oath to not use the One Power against normies unless it's in defense of self or others. (as I understand that Oath to be...don't remember if they have explicitly shown each oath on the show).

[Quark]

I thought this whole season was great.

Lanfear was easily the standout for me. An absolute hoot of a character, I look forward to seeing more of her as the series progresses.

Elayne deserves a standout. The actress did a fabulous job embracing the character.

Very much looking forward to the next season.

[quarks]

37 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

(as I understand that Oath to be...don't remember if they have explicitly shown each oath on the show).

If memory serves, we've only seen one Oath on the show - the one where Moiraine swore to obey Siuan.

The others have been discussed (the Oath about saying no word that isn't true, or not being able to use the One Power as a weapon) or mentioned (not being able to use the One Power to create weapons) but not, as far as I can remember, shown on screen. 

And a lot of the nuances haven't been discussed either. For instance, in this season Egwene initially thought she could use a jug as a weapon. Would that mean that other Aes Sedai couldn't take pottery classes? Or could they, as long as it never occurred to them that those jugs could be used to make weapons?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

the Oath to not use the One Power against normies unless it's in defense of self or others. (as I understand that Oath to be...don't remember if they have explicitly shown each oath on the show).

As a last resort in defense of self or Warder, not just anyone. But both of which would die if there's an apocalypse, as you said.

5 hours ago, quarks said:

Would that mean that other Aes Sedai couldn't take pottery classes? Or could they, as long as it never occurred to them that those jugs could be used to make weapons?

It wouldn't matter if they didn't use the One Power to make the jugs. The oath exists because the Power can forge specially effective weapons.

On 10/10/2023 at 12:24 PM, Danny Franks said:

The Oaths are completely internal, rather than external controls applied by the Oath Rod.

Indeed, it's been pointed out (by fans, not characters or authors) that "speak no word that is not true" wouldn't allow them to talk at all if taken literally, since it's not words that have truth values, it's statements.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[DoctorAtomic]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:04 PM, Blue Plastic said:

I wondered, too, about exactly how Egwene was "allowed" to place a collar on Renna, and how she was able to use the One Power against her while Renna still wore the bracelet, but ah, well, whatever. I still bought it.

Sheer force of will. She was in tremendous pain. 

On 10/10/2023 at 10:24 AM, Danny Franks said:

I've always understood that a lot of the Three Oaths are down to interpretation and intentions - if an Aes Sedai believes that she will be killed if she doesn't channel a fireball at someone, then she can do it.

There's definitely intent. Moiraine thought she was still. Writing "I've been stilled" is the truth as she sees it, even if she actually wasn't. Notice when Rand broke the shield she said to Lanfear, "Ishamael took the Power away from me" or something like that. 100% true. Also, pretty sneaky, sis. 

On 10/10/2023 at 10:24 AM, Danny Franks said:

It's about how each woman rationalises it in her own head. The Oaths are completely internal, rather than external controls applied by the Oath Rod.

I'm not so sure. Suiane said "You swore to obey me" and she was forced to close the gate. She didn't have any control. 

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So it seems to me (as a nonbookwalker) that it is possible to undo the compulsory effects of the Oaths. Originally it seemed to me like it would take the power/knoweldge of a Forsaken.

Yes. 

11 hours ago, Affogato said:

Moraine's act is a fairly common act of war, and we know she believes that if the Seanchan succeed the outcome will be worse. 

To be fair, there was a Darkfriend on the ship - Suroth. Moiraine is allowed to use the power against Darkfriends. There's no oaths against collateral damage. 

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

16 hours ago, Affogato said:

Moraine's act is a fairly common act of war, and we know she believes that if the Seanchan succeed the outcome will be worse. 

To be fair, there was a Darkfriend on the ship - Suroth. Moiraine is allowed to use the power against Darkfriends. There's no oaths against collateral damage. 

An once Moiraine blew up that one ship, the other ships just spontaneous combusted, as ships are want to do, which is why you keep plenty on water near by.

[chaifan]

Casual viewer here, I haven't read the books and to be honest, there are many times while watching the show that I really don't know what is going on.  That said, I liked this season.  I wasn't crazy about Ishmael, but loved Lanfear and also seeing more of Liandrin. Yeah, I like the bad guys.  But Egwene was pretty bad ass, too. 

I agree with everyone above that Nynaeve shoving the arrow through, feathers and all, seemed rather stupid.  Let's take a 1/4 inch hole in your leg and turn it into a jagged 1 inch hole instead.  ew.  I hate to say it, but Nynaeve and Elyane turned out to be rather superfluous in the end.  Other than Elayne healing Rand, their presence in the final battle didn't matter much.

I liked Mat and the Horn and the realization that he's also a hero. 

So here's the big thing I don't understand...  Moraine kept saying that the Dragon (Rand) was necessary to defeat the war against the Dark Side (or whatever they call it).  But what did Rand actually do?  He got captured and had his powers bound for most of the battle.  Was there something about being the Dragon that made him the only one who could kill Ishmael?  Or could anyone else have done that? 

I also don't understand why the other Ais Sedai in the tower just didn't open up other portals to where Rand and Moraine were and help in the fight.  If this is the crucial light vs. dark battle, why wouldn't they have everyone there?

And did I miss it, or what happened to Min? 

[DoctorAtomic]

This wasn't the 'final' battle. It was a battle. The prophecy said that the Dragon will reveal himself to the world when he comes to Falme in their greatest hour of need. (Not what exactly he would do.) So it's a big deal that all this happened. I think it's important to point out that, yes, Rand needed help. What's going to happen in the last battle? It's not like Rand is just going to walk up and punch the dark one in the mouth and that's it. He's going to need help, but his friends will have his back. 

The Dragon is needed because he's the most powerful channeler ever. This time, the Dragon is Rand, but also this time, the male half of the power is tainted, so the Aes Sedai have been going around for a few thousand years gentling any man who can channel. So Rand doesn't really have anyone to learn from. Logain isn't really stable. 

The Tower can't just teleport. So they couldn't have helped. Most don't know that Rand is the Dragon either. They've known there was trouble in Falme and sent sisters over to investigate, but they all got captured. So they don't really know what's going on at all. 

So it's all a mess and surprise! Now everyone knows the Dragon is back. Don't forget that Siuane told Rand that the Tower policy is to basically cage the Dragon until the last battle, and Rand escaped with Moiraine and Verin on her watch. Lots of problems. 

[quarks]

15 hours ago, chaifan said:

 

So here's the big thing I don't understand...  Moraine kept saying that the Dragon (Rand) was necessary to defeat the war against the Dark Side (or whatever they call it).  But what did Rand actually do?  He got captured and had his powers bound for most of the battle.  Was there something about being the Dragon that made him the only one who could kill Ishmael?  Or could anyone else have done that? 

I also don't understand why the other Ais Sedai in the tower just didn't open up other portals to where Rand and Moraine were and help in the fight.  If this is the crucial light vs. dark battle, why wouldn't they have everyone there?

And did I miss it, or what happened to Min? 

To add to DoctorAtomic's points above:

1. Rand defeated/killed Turak, the commander of that particular group of Seanchan in that area, and a number of his warriors.

2. Rand also defeated Ishamael. Not alone - he needed his friends - and it wasn't a permanent victory, either: as we saw at the end, not only was Lanfear still around, but Ishamael managed to free six more extremely powerful evil guys, including the creepy spider lady. But, with that and defeating Turak, Rand did do something.

3. Lanfear and Ishamael do seem to be able to get around pretty quickly. But the Aes Sedai don't seem to have those same skills.

Moiraine did have that little picture thing in her rooms in the Tower, which let her get to Siuan's old home (or a reconstruction of it) last season, but we don't know if that allows her to go anywhere else. My guess is probably not - otherwise, she would/could have used that, and not the portal stones, to get everyone to Shienar safely and quickly, rather than using the Ways. And we don't know if anyone other than Moiraine and Siuan and maybe Lan even know about that picture thing. I'm guessing not.

Otherwise, the Aes Sedai seem to just use the Ways - but as we saw in the first season, those can be very dangerous, and they aren't instantaneous. And it's not clear how much the Aes Sedai really know about them - last season, Moiraine and Loial seemed to think that horses couldn't travel in the Ways, and this season, Liandrin just....took horses into the Ways, so, either that was a continuity error on the show (possible), or the Aes Sedai don't have a user manual for the Ways, and even those who have used the Ways/plan to use the Ways don't know everything about them.

And that said, we don't know how many of the Aes Sedai even know about the Ways - it's kinda notable that Moiraine had to ask Loial for help last season, and this season, Liandrin didn't bring anyone else along. It's possible that the only Aes Sedai who know about the Ways are Moiraine, Liandrin and Siuan, though I'm kinda hoping that the Brown Ajah know about them and use them to go shopping for rare books.

[quarks]

Oh, and one more small point:

From what we've seen on the show, many if not most of the Aes Sedai may not know what's going on - with the Seanchan or with Rand. 

Seanchan knowledge:

In season one, Maigan tells us about some vague rumors about ships in the West; they hear just enough to send out some sort of team to investigate, but they apparently weren't aware that the Seanchan were capturing/enslaving women who could channel until they got there. Most of them were captured or killed before they could send out a message, except for Ryma, and although Ryma was apparently trying to get the word out to the Tower, it's not clear if any of those messages arrived. None of the Aes Sedai in the Tower or later in Cairhein mention the Seanchan, and even spymaster Moiraine, who is clearly getting info from a number of people, doesn't seem to have much info.

So as far as we can tell, the only Aes Sedai who know about the Seanchan as of right now are :

Liandrin, who has chosen to tell people about asparagus instead of the Seanchan

The Aes Sedai actually in Falme right now, who are either dead (Maigan and, it's implied, most of the rest of the investigation team), captured (Ryma), or not Aes Sedai yet (Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene), and not able to tell anyone about the Seanchan

Moiraine, who has been exiled from the Tower and, apparently, not even communicating little things like "Hi, I've been stilled," to Siuan, and who doesn't tend to tell people anything to begin with, even when she knows something - which in this case, she probably doesn't know. At least, not much.

So I wouldn't be surprised to learn that as of right now, no one in the Tower other than Liandrin knows much about the Seanchan. Asparagus, sure. Seanchan, less so.

Rand knowledge:

Prior to the battle/the flaming dragon in the sky, only five Aes Sedai seemed to know about Rand: Moiraine, Siuan, Verin, Alanna, and whichever Aes Sedai was at the Darkfriend meeting at the start of season two.

That Aes Sedai hasn't been identified. It could have been Liandrin, or it could have been one of the other Aes Sedai that we've seen on the show - possibly even including Siuan, Verin and Alanna

The other Aes Sedai we've seen didn't seem to know that Rand is the Dragon Reborn - giving them another reason, even aside from the transportation challenges, not to show up to the battle. They just didn't know about it. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/21/2023 at 11:00 AM, chaifan said:

I also don't understand why the other Ais Sedai in the tower just didn't open up other portals to where Rand and Moraine were and help in the fight.

7 hours ago, quarks said:

3. Lanfear and Ishamael do seem to be able to get around pretty quickly. But the Aes Sedai don't seem to have those same skills.

Gateways seem to be one of those lost arts from the Age of Wonders that are beyond the knowledge of most modern Aes Sedai. We also don't know how strong in the Power you need to be to make them and how many Aes Sedai would be capable even if it weren't a lost art.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think we've technically seen on the show how Lanfear or Ishamael got from place to place. All we've seen is the Ways. 

It has been mentioned that a lot of tricks with the Power have been lost; Moiraine mentioned 'what little we could find about Lanfear'. It stands to reason getting around might be one of them.

[chaifan]

Thanks, everyone for the clarification.  OK, so this was a battle, not the Final Battle.  That helps, a lot. 

I'm guessing that most of the people commenting here have read the books.  Or paid a hella lot more attention to the show than I have.  Because there is so much that just goes swoosh over my head, yet others seem to know it.  I am usually not this lost in shows that I watch. 

Even with the explanations people have provided, I still find it weird that there's such a disconnect within the Ais Sedai, especially when the fate of the world is at stake. 

[DoctorAtomic]

3 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Even with the explanations people have provided, I still find it weird that there's such a disconnect within the Ais Sedai, especially when the fate of the world is at stake. 

What does that tell you though? 

 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

Thanks, everyone for the clarification.  OK, so this was a battle, not the Final Battle.  That helps, a lot.

I don't want to seem rude, but how could it have been if the show isn't over yet? And you'd expect the Dark One to present at the Final Battle, armies of Trollocs and Fades, etc.

This battle was primarily against the Seanchan, who while an evil empire mostly aren't Darkfriends and those that are Darkfriends need to keep it secret like they do in the Westlands.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Affogato]

14 hours ago, chaifan said:

Thanks, everyone for the clarification.  OK, so this was a battle, not the Final Battle.  That helps, a lot. 

I'm guessing that most of the people commenting here have read the books.  Or paid a hella lot more attention to the show than I have.  Because there is so much that just goes swoosh over my head, yet others seem to know it.  I am usually not this lost in shows that I watch. 

Even with the explanations people have provided, I still find it weird that there's such a disconnect within the Ais Sedai, especially when the fate of the world is at stake. 

I haven't read the books, but from the length and number of the books and the detail I've heard suggested about the worldbuilding, I think that ultimately there is going to be a lot that is passed by in this story. I'm guessing the Ais Sedai are not that important in the larger scheme of things. They kept the stories going, as happens in nurseries and schoolyards, but Rand will have to take leadership and use the power (while overcoming the curse) with his small group of friends who will follow him, if the last battle will be won. 

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I don't want to seem rude, but how could it have been if the show isn't over yet? And you'd expect the Dark One to present at the Final Battle, armies of Trollocs and Fades, etc.

Valid question, and not rude at all.  I think it seems pretty obvious to book readers, but from just a show watcher perspective it's really not.  First, there's never any promise of a next season, so it's quite possible this battle is the last we'd see of this series.  Also, the way several characters were commenting on how Rand wasn't ready made it seem like they were all walking into the Final Battle.  To be honest, it all seemed rather unimpressive for an epic Last Battle, but since that's what they were always talking about, I just assumed it was the Last Battle. 

During Season 1, if I hadn't been reading this forum, I would have been hopelessly lost and probably dropped the show after 2 episodes.  I like Rosamund Pike, and I loved the look/feel of the show, so I stuck through.  I read several comments in other forums after season 1 that most non-book readers also had problems following the plot & characters (so so so many characters), so I was glad to know it wasn't just me.  This season, I figured I'd just roll with it, but still got lost several times.  Maybe I just need to give this show up.

Edited October 23, 2023 by chaifan