S02.E05: Charades

[paigow]

15 hours ago, tv-talk said:

How come they can pick up scalding pots for fun but cant suppress how human smells make them feel?

Which makes TOS!Canon of M'Benga interning on a Vulcan hospital ward a ludicrous impossibility.... Fuck Goldsman 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Which makes TOS!Canon of M'Benga interning on a Vulcan hospital ward a ludicrous impossibility.... Fuck Goldsman 

Why is it impossible that M'Benga interned on a Vulcan hospital ward just because some Vulcans don't like how humans smell to the point that they would use nasal suppressants?

1. M'Benga might smell better than most humans or might have used some sort of deodorant or cologne to cover up his stank.

2. The doctors/nurses in the Vulcan hospital ward where he interned might have been better able to tolerate human stank better than the average Vulcan.

3. The doctors/nurses might have just used nasal suppressants as a matter of general practice or specifically to cover up M'Benga's human stank.

4. The doctors/nurses might have been complaining about stanky-ass M'Benga behind his back.

[starri]

Also, the nasal suppressant thing is from as far back as the first season of Enterprise. 

[paigow]

TOS!Stonn would have got his ass kicked by Kirk or even McCoy if he had to hold his breath the entire fight.....

Edited July 15, 2023 by paigow

[NeenerNeener]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Which makes TOS!Canon of M'Benga interning on a Vulcan hospital ward a ludicrous impossibility.... Fuck Goldsman 

I'm developing a new appreciation for Berman/Braga/Moore. I don't remember them violating the Book of Roddenberry for the occasional visits from characters of TOS very much. They just created new stuff that was an addition to the universe.

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

I'm developing a new appreciation for Berman/Braga/Moore. I don't remember them violating the Book of Roddenberry for the occasional visits from characters of TOS very much. They just created new stuff that was an addition to the universe.

So in a triple Goldsman!Mirror Universe, Picard would PREVENT Cochrane from making First Contact because the Vulcan emissary would get a whiff of old Zefram, lift off and nuke Earth into oblivion...

[TVbitch]

T-Pring tells Spock they might need "some time apart", and he's up on Chapel two seconds later. I think she has cause to go all Rachel on him. (Just sayin'. 😁) I'm guessing something bad will happen due to Spock's emotions compromising his decision making, and that will cause him to shut back off.  

Anson Mount and Ethan Peck had me laughing all through this episode with their facial expressions, gestures and line readings. It was nice to have some fun watching for what seems like the first time this season. 

Question: Why is TOS considered the prime timeline, instead of just another of an infinite number of timelines? 

[Orbert]

Because for many years, TOS was all there was.  When TNG came along, it made an effort to be consistent with TOS canon and lore.  It wasn't always 100% successful, but the effort was there.  Since DS9 and Voyager were in the same "universe" as TNG, that concept carried over.

It was only with the later Trek and JJ movies that the idea that there are multiple timelines even came up.  SNW seemed to be trying to fit into the prime timeline at first, but we're seeing more and more deviations.  And sometimes half the fun is pointing them out.

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why is it impossible that M'Benga interned on a Vulcan hospital ward just because some Vulcans don't like how humans smell to the point that they would use nasal suppressants?

1. M'Benga might smell better than most humans or might have used some sort of deodorant or cologne to cover up his stank.

2. The doctors/nurses in the Vulcan hospital ward where he interned might have been better able to tolerate human stank better than the average Vulcan.

3. The doctors/nurses might have just used nasal suppressants as a matter of general practice or specifically to cover up M'Benga's human stank.

4. The doctors/nurses might have been complaining about stanky-ass M'Benga behind his back.

Plus even in real life there are smelly people (either naturally or thanks to cologne/perfume/etc.) that their coworkers are forced to tolerate for various reasons.  He stinks is not a logical reason to exile a qualified person.

[Prevailing Wind]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Also I have witnessed [ETA: informal, non-legit] Kosher waivers applied to Chinese food consumed at home... 

I used to work with a woman who was raised in a so-called Orthodox home. She said they had 3 sets of dishes: Flesh, Dairy, and Chinese.

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, Orbert said:

Because for many years, TOS was all there was.  When TNG came along, it made an effort to be consistent with TOS canon and lore.  It wasn't always 100% successful, but the effort was there.  Since DS9 and Voyager were in the same "universe" as TNG, that concept carried over.

It was only with the later Trek and JJ movies that the idea that there are multiple timelines even came up.  SNW seemed to be trying to fit into the prime timeline at first, but we're seeing more and more deviations.  And sometimes half the fun is pointing them out.

It's a lot easier to adhere to canon when the show is a sequel rather than a prequel. 

Personally, I'm quite happy to think of SNW as being in a completely different timeline to TOS.  But then I'm a T-Pring fan and would have no problem if TPTB figured out a way to keep her around. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

Personally, I'm quite happy to think of SNW as being in a completely different timeline to TOS.  But then I'm a T-Pring fan and would have no problem if TPTB figured out a way to keep her around. 

I wasn't a T'Pring fan based on TOS. But I kinda love this T'Pring and honestly think she might be too good for Spock (which feels like blaspheme to even type). Honestly, the only way my brain could even reconcile this T'Pring with TOS is to imagine that at some point Spock just F'd up so bad that it broke her to the point of vindictiveness disguised as cool, logical strategy. 

[AmigaJoe]

Not a big deal really, but this episode genuinely felt like Millennials at the keyboard. What, with the whole automated response system for the wormhole! An automated system to handle complaints like freaking Amazon! A super advanced species who is described as being beyond space and time talking about a time window for handling complaints(!). I understand that sci-fi is often treated as a lens to look at contemporary issues in life/society, but that crap is a bit on the nose. Written more like an episode of Friends than science fiction.

[paigow]

Stinking Humans save the galaxy from Vulcans....

Sybok: Captain Kirk, I was going to hijack your ship, but I must leave immediately...

Valeris: Admiral Cartwright, I cannot be your saboteur because there are too many humans aboard Enterprise...

[wanderingstar]

This episode was a delight. My favorite parts

• Uhura, La'an, and Ortegas trying to teach Spock to speak like a Vulcan. Hilarious!
• All of Spock's post-change facial expressions. Kudos to Ethan Peck!
• Pike was also great in this episode. Loved that he cooked Vulcan food for T'Pring's parents.
• Spock discovering bacon 😆
• T'Pril was magnificent and imperious. 
• I loved how much Sevet loved Pike's Vulcan dishes.
• Spock's impassioned speech about his mother and his humanity was quite moving. 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by wanderingstar

[OLynn33]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:37 AM, MissLucas said:

This episode is worth rewatching just for Pike's reaction faces. Anson Mount was having a blast.

 

21 hours ago, norcalgal said:

My absolute favorite comedic moment of episode was when Pike attempts to serve more Vulcan food at Sevet's request, but that's the moment Spock reveals his "humanness" so Pike veers aaaaway from the group with the tray of food he was carrying!  OMG, I literally LOL

I rewound this scene about 5 times! Mount is so good at reaction face.

Sevet seems like he'd be a hoot at a party. He was more than willing to try anything Pike was throwing at him. He has to be the victim of an arranged marriage. Poor guy.

I liked when and how Chapel told the other two to turn around when she was confessing her true feelings. Like they can hear you. 

I'm sorry but I thoroughly enjoyed this episode so much so I feel I have to apologize to the people so clearly upset by it. I'm at the just entertain me age and point in my television viewing because so little of it does now and this episode did.

[tkc]

It does seem like the show runners are treating TOS canon as inspiration rather than gospel. Having said that, I do enjoy the Trek connective tissue, like the hints of TOS “conflict” music sprinkled into this episode’s soundtrack.

It was cute to see Spock acting like a 14-year old kid!

And speaking of the soundtrack, there was a lost opportunity for the show — should have had some weird space-Chuck Mangione music playing after Blue disappeared, while the shuttle team waited for the next customer service representative…

Oh, and if Vulcans were generally more like Sevet instead of like T’Pril, we wouldn’t need to have this discussion about humans and Vulcans working together!

[wanderingstar]

On 7/14/2023 at 11:28 AM, norcalgal said:

My absolute favorite comedic moment of the episode was when Pike attempts to serve more Vulcan food at Sevet's request, but that's the moment Spock reveals his "humanness" so Pike veers aaaaway from the group with the tray of food he was carrying!  OMG, I literally LOL'd.  🤣 

SO funny! Anson Mount really brought brilliant comic timing to his performance in this episode.

I also loved when Sevet asked for more Vulcan food, and Pike snapped his fingers in the coming-right-up gesture. 😁

Edited July 15, 2023 by wanderingstar

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, AmigaJoe said:

Not a big deal really, but this episode genuinely felt like Millennials at the keyboard. What, with the whole automated response system for the wormhole! An automated system to handle complaints like freaking Amazon! A super advanced species who is described as being beyond space and time talking about a time window for handling complaints(!). I understand that sci-fi is often treated as a lens to look at contemporary issues in life/society, but that crap is a bit on the nose. Written more like an episode of Friends than science fiction.

You forgot the old people forcing them to undergo elaborate cultural rituals they don't understand or really care about. Why send out thank you notes when you can text, ma?

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I wasn't a T'Pring fan based on TOS. But I kinda love this T'Pring and honestly think she might be too good for Spock (which feels like blaspheme to even type). Honestly, the only way my brain could even reconcile this T'Pring with TOS is to imagine that at some point Spock just F'd up so bad that it broke her to the point of vindictiveness disguised as cool, logical strategy. 

If I am remembering it correctly Spock didn't mess up,. he just continued to do his job and showed no interest in returning to Vulcan. Meanwhile, she found someone else. He was okay with it, too, because it was a logical conclusion. In this show her relationship with her mother is highlighted, too.  T'Pring is not having a lot of family fun at home, probably at the time of TOS it was even worse.

Now you are seeing this from the POV of a friend of Spocks who sees him in pain and reacts as if T'Pring is being arbitrary and judgemental (and also disloyal), we see it in the show from the POV of Kirk and McCoy, who haven't apparently met or spent time with T'Pring.  they do learn that there are things going on in the relationship that they do not understand.

[Affogato]

17 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Plus even in real life there are smelly people (either naturally or thanks to cologne/perfume/etc.) that their coworkers are forced to tolerate for various reasons.  He stinks is not a logical reason to exile a qualified person.

As an aside, our smell depends on our bacteria. Apparently it is one of the ways we identify people attractive to us, but also you can be infected with stinky bacteria by touching a person who doesn't smell particularly attractive.

Aliens would smell different and find other things attractive, but it is possible that M'Benga could adopt the bacteria-smell of Vulcans, if he worked closely with them. the same would be true of Amanda and Spock, and I assume, Michael. In the future it may be something they can fix

[tkc]

57 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Aliens would smell different and find other things attractive, but it is possible that M'Benga could adopt the bacteria-smell of Vulcans, if he worked closely with them. 

Speaking of M’Benga, how do you all (personally) pronounce his name: mmm-benga, or muh-benga?

As Psych’s Shawn Spencer would say, I’ve heard it both ways…

[wanderingstar]

1 hour ago, tkc said:

mmm-benga

This is how I pronounce it.

[RachelKM]

6 hours ago, tkc said:

 mmm-benga

4 hours ago, wanderingstar said:

This is how I pronounce it.

Same.

[millennium]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:11 PM, historylover820 said:

I liked it, but I think I'm with most of you --  this isn't a prequel to TOS. It can't be. It's an AU.

I saw an article a day or two ago suggesting SNW could have diverted from the Prime timeline the instant Pike saw his tragic future in the Klingon time crystals.  His awareness would have created a new timeline.

Even so, I read the description of this episode and knew I had to pass.  I don't need this in my head.   These idiots won't be happy until they've soiled every last element of TOS.

Edited July 16, 2023 by millennium

[paigow]

Evidence that Vulcans built The Matrix...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYL28a0LM_A

[Orbert]

I watched this one and kept thinking I shouldn't like it, being the hardcore TOS fan and general Trekhead that I am.  Spock's DNA was rewritten, but his memory wasn't erased.  He should remember how he was before, how he acted; they shouldn't have to teach or re-teach him how a Vulcan acts.  But it was hilarious and I found myself laughing even if I thought it didn't make much sense.

The clichéd overbearing mother-in-law (-to-be) and the whipped husband, please just shoot me now.  But Sevet was awesome.  He's figured out how to live with T'Pril and stay sane, so good for him.  Bacon-wrapped Vulcan hors d'oeuvres?  Sure!  What?  Oh, yes dear, of course you're right.  T'Pril's bitchiness gave others a chance to stand up to her, and shine while doing it.  Also, it kinda led to Amanda and Spock's scene at the end, which was great.

The way everybody worked together, each using the skills they have, to help Spock get through this very important event (and succeeding!) was amazing.  Uhura's communication expertise, Erica's "I fly the ship; prepare to not die", everybody going all in.  I kept thinking that it was all for naught; we know that in TOS, T'Pring ultimately rejects Spock and chooses Stonn.  But it was still great to watch.

TOS had the occassional lighter episodes, as did TNG.  Sometimes I forget that.  This was a fun episode.  Somehow they took something very serious, made light of it, and it still all worked.

[tv-talk]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

Even so, I read the description of this episode and knew I had to pass.

I hear you and when I read it I was close to passing also. Although I get annoyed with how Vulcans are portrayed, Anson Mount was good enough to make it worthwhile and Peck was great too. That said, yeah obviously TOS was now decades ago and they dont really care to try and align with it that closely. Tbh I find the notion of a million alternate timelines more annoying than simply having incongruencies in the stories.

[ML89]

Anson Mount, most of all, and the cast make this show and remain the reason I watch. Even through complete damage to the timeline, this weird making the Vulcans into jerks (it’s like the hatred for the Jedi in SW), and the unfortunate making of these adults into really weird teenagers at points. Although the women running “Spock School” was funny.   
 

I did want to see Charades. Does Pike have his cooking videos on Federation TikTok? Mount was hilarious, trying to navigate that dinner. Spock making the tea and T’Pring telling him to slow down to let the tea make properly is every pour over coffee YouTube I’ve ever seen. Is there a Vulcan James Hoffman somewhere?

So there’s a moon in the Vulcan system with a wormhole and none of them have investigated? Huh? Glad Christine told Officious Jerk off. 

[dwmarch]

They weren't too clear on the space geography in this one but I am pretty sure the "Vulcan system" consists of at least 40 Eridani A and 40 Eridani B, with the planet of Vulcan being in the B part. The haunted moon was in the A part... I think.

As for Vulcans not exploring it, I could see that. It takes a dumbass human pilot to see a dangerous anomaly and fly closer to it while the wise logical Vulcans keep their distance.

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

As for Vulcans not exploring it, I could see that. It takes a dumbass human pilot to see a dangerous anomaly and fly closer to it while the wise logical Vulcans keep their distance.

TOS!Kirk fired off unmanned probes like they were available at Dollar General... The Vulcan Science Academy likely has a warehouse full of them...

[millennium]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Anson Mount was good enough to make it worthwhile and Peck was great too

No criticism of Anson Mount here.   He's good enough that he could have been cast as a new, unknown captain and easily carried the show.

I can't accept Peck's Spock at all.   In the last episode it looked like his sideburns were colored in with black sharpie.   I thought it a fitting metaphor for his overall portrayal of Spock.  Half the problem is his acting, the rest is on the writers.

Recent canonical conflicts in SNW led me to rewatch TOS "The Menagerie" this weekend.   I haven't watched it in a few years.   It felt like coming home.   The look of wonder on Kirk's face in the final scene as he watched Chris Pike take Vina's hand and disappear on the underground elevator ... that's Star Trek, my friends.

I knew then and there I won't be watching SNW anymore.  I won't even be hate-watching Discovery's final season.   It's too late for me to do anything about Picard, except try to forget.   But yeah, I'm done standing by and feeling helpless as Paramount takes a wrecking ball to something that meant so much to me growing up.   I can't stop it from happening, but I don't have to watch.

[tv-talk]

4 hours ago, ML89 said:

Even through complete damage to the timeline, this weird making the Vulcans into jerks

It's so bizarre! TOS Spock is undoubtedly the most beloved character in all of Star Trek and surely top5 or so all time in terms of sci-fi overall. Yet the writers of the newer series seem just bent on discrediting Vulcans and making them appear to be humans' natural enemies. Hell blowing up Vulcan was giving JJ Abrams too much leeway, it's like eff you dude. Discovery seems like it's main intent was to establish that Michael Burnham is superior to Spock in every conceivable way, it's just a trash show. Awful on every level.

 

Oh well....

Thankfully that doesnt preclude there being some enjoyable episodes and portrayals along the way.

1 hour ago, millennium said:

I knew then and there I won't be watching SNW anymore.  I won't even be hate-watching Discovery's final season.   It's too late for me to do anything about Picard, except try to forget. 

but you've come so far!! Definitely ditch Discovery but there is still some hope for these last eps of SNW, the Gorn could make for some thrilling episodes and maybe one of the bigger characters like La'an will be killed off which is a "big" deal.

Ok so I watched episode 1, season1 of Picard and thought "Nope, not gonna do it." Didnt watch anymore....until Season3 which I have to say I loved for all the nostalgia and the absolutely perfect Worf moments. It was fun.

[AWhittle]

Few things

1 Another anomaly, another humanist speech to energy beings almost like Captain Michael Burnham. Reminded me a little of Sisko and the beings in the wormhole

2. How could Captain Pike on his ship, listen and do NOTHING when the mother was insulting Starfleet and humanity in general.

3 The episode went down a bit in the middle and sort of redeemed itself when Chapel found out what Spock really did in the shuttle, her expression after the hypo spray (almost crying), Spock defending humanity and his human side, and finding out what Amanda went through all those years on Vulcan. The last scenes salvaged the episode a little.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, millennium said:

The look of wonder on Kirk's face in the final scene as he watched Chris Pike take Vina's hand and disappear on the underground elevator ... that's Star Trek, my friends.

Goldsman & his crew will undoubtedly rip this off...

[marinw]

Yep, someone is going to have sex with a female cloud. 

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, AWhittle said:

2. How could Captain Pike on his ship, listen and do NOTHING when the mother was insulting Starfleet and humanity in general.

He did nothing to make it less hard for Spock. Arguing with the future MIL seems to be a bad idea.

[historylover820]

Yeah, I thought Pike was taking the approach of "This is uncomfortable. I'm going to pretend I'm not here." Until he had to buy some time for Spock.

For the record --

My relationship with Star Trek isn't really that comprehensive.

I'm completely a TOS girl, my favorite character is Bones. to the point where I will watch DeForest Kelley in ANYTHING. I've seen Night of the Lepus TWICE. 

I've seen TAS.

I've seen all the movies.

I don't know if I've seen all of TNG. If I haven't seen every episode of TNG, I've seen most of them. I could probably talk TNG with the best of them.

I have not seen DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise. My knowledge from them comes from reviews.

Nu-Trek?

I watched season 1 of Picard until about episode 5 and went "I'm done!" I came back for Picard for season 3 and had fun with the 'Member Berries.

I watched the first two seasons of Discovery because I liked the supporting characters. I've mentioned before how much I hate Michael and hit the ceiling when it was revealed that she was his foster sister because it made me go "Well, not the first quasi-sibling of Spock's that we didn't know about." I stuck through Discovery through its third season, hoping Michael might grow on me. She didn't, and I ran away from it.

I've never seen Lower Decks or Prodigy.

So, having said that, I think this was the best episode this season. I really had fun with this episode. And, yes, I didn't catch Korby being referenced. Thanks for those who corrected me, and I apologize for my mistake.

However, I'm still going "This won't never connect to TOS, but you keep giving me episodes like this, I don't care." This was so much fun.

[Prevailing Wind]

I'm watching (again) DS9 on Pluto and it has become, by far, my favorite ST series.  I watched Voyager, but I wasn't invested in it - Janeway's too much of a saint. It only got interesting once Jeri Ryan showed up. (And I'm not even a teen boy!)  I liked her on Leverage, too, so much so that I wouldn't have been upset had Gina Bellman stayed home with her baby.

I started Discovery, couldn't get past the first 15 minutes, and gave up. I am one of the few who actually LIKED Enterprise.

This series is up there with the best of 'em if you don't mind messing with ST history a bit.  I think Ethan Peck is fabulous as Spock and sometimes even sounds like Nimoy.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Human Spock's hair needed some work. WTF indeed.

Human Spock was hangry. Good thing there was bacon, bacon, bacon! Num, num, num, num, num!

Messy Sam Kirk did not want that Human Spock smoke.

Yeah, T'Pring's mother was a straight up C U Next Tuesday. She must get exhausted from having to cast so much negative energy.

Snooze, lose, Human Spock. But then Nurse Chapel sacrificed her feelings for you AGAIN..

Ethan Peck displayed great acting chops but I think Anson Mount owned this episode. Pike was killing it with his non-verbal reactions.

This was the ST:SNW rom-com I didn't know I needed.

[millennium]

7 hours ago, tv-talk said:

but you've come so far!! Definitely ditch Discovery but there is still some hope for these last eps of SNW, the Gorn could make for some thrilling episodes and maybe one of the bigger characters like La'an will be killed off which is a "big" deal.

For all its unintentional clunkiness and groovy purple lighting, The Menagerie was still a gritty, serious and fast-paced teleplay.    Every commercial break left you hanging, wondering what comes next.   The same is seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before," "The Man Trap," ("Is that Nancy, doctor?)  and many, many episodes that followed.

In New Trek, the characters seem to stroll through scenes at a leisurely pace on sets that look atriums.   There's little sense they are in a confined space where personal comfort is secondary to the mission.   Rarely is there an all-hands-on-deck moment.   Remember the red alert alarm on TOS?  Does that ever go off on SNW?  Does the crew ever have to scramble?   Is the ship ever on the verge of being destroyed?  If so, I can't recall any instance offhand, meaning if it happened it left no impression on me. 

If I had to compare the overall atmosphere of Pike's Enterprise to that of another show, I think it would be "Below Deck."  Pike's "Beat Bobby Flay" kitchen set-up does nothing to make me think otherwise.  

I don't feel this Star Trek much.  The episodes don't leave me thinking about them afterwards, except the glaring canonical discrepancies.

And when the showrunners seem to blatantly go out of their way to reorient our impression of TOS, or to overwrite what we know happened in that universe, it insults and infuriates me.

I was the kid who read, re-read and basically wore out my copy of Stephen Whitfield's "The Making of Star Trek."   I built almost all of the AMT Star Trek plastic models: the Enterprise (the nacelle struts were a bitch; they never sat evenly), Klingon battle-cruiser, Romulan Bird of Prey, the Galileo 7, the Enterprise Bridge even ... I read (and still have) all of the James Blish adaptations of the episodes.   The Star Trek Technical Manual, too.   In the summer between eighth and ninth grade I waited weeks for "The World of Star Trek" tour to come to a city near me, to hear Gene Roddenberry speak and exhibit the Star Trek Blooper Reel, which was a big thing back in the late 70's (on the day of the show I came down with the flu; "The World of Star Trek" went on without me).

I know there's a mindset out there that says we should be grateful Star Trek is back on TV and going in new directions, regardless of how inferior the new product is in terms of storytelling and philosophy compared to the original.  But I'm tired of being "grateful" to folks who clearly aren't grateful for the support so many of us gave Star Trek in the years while they were still watching Romper Room.

I tried but I can't just "whatever" the flagrant disrespect this show and Discovery demonstrates toward TOS, its visionaries and its writers.   It's like fighting the tide and my heart's just not in it anymore.

 

 

 

[paigow]

 

11 hours ago, millennium said:

It's too late for me to do anything about Picard, except try to forget. 

Live Long And Prosper

[millennium]

LOL, that scene is precisely what I envisioned when I wrote "try to forget."  

Peace and long life, Paigow.

[paigow]

11 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

This series is up there with the best of 'em if you don't mind messing with ST history a bit.

Your skill at understatement is highly developed....

[tv-talk]

11 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I'm watching (again) DS9 on Pluto and it has become, by far, my favorite ST series.

Yeah DS9 had a great run, lot of outstanding episodes and I especially liked the character arc that Worf went thru, full transitioning from grunt-Worf to Zen-Worf. O'brien was a great character as well and Sisko grew on me surprisingly given his often very one-note performances. Best of all though, was probably the long story and charcter arcs that Gul-Dukat and Garak went through over the years, I dont think there is anything else like that in all of Trek in terms of the "baddies" development.

 

8 hours ago, millennium said:

In New Trek, the characters seem to stroll through scenes at a leisurely pace on sets that look atriums.   There's little sense they are in a confined space where personal comfort is secondary to the mission.

That reminds me of something I take issue with in SNW- namely how casual the crew is with their superiors in rank. The ease with which some of them talk back to the Capt or #1 or Spock makes it seem they're all just roommates as opposed to on a quasi-military mission with a well-defined command structure. I'd like to see Pike put the hammer down more often!

[Chicago Redshirt]

I grew up with TOS and love it still. But I think there's a lot of romanticizing of it and/or demonizing of new Trek going on.

There are various episodes of TOS in which subordinates lip off to Spock, and I probably could come up with examples from TOS where people "disrespect" Kirk as much as they have Pike (which I don't see, but anyway) and they're not under the influence of a virus or spore.

I feel safe in saying that there are not any episodes in TOS where Vulcans and humans are shown to routinely get along with an abundance of mutual respect, or where Vulcans are shown to not have biased jerks among them. Even as half-human, Spock is constantly putting down humans for their emotional tendencies and their illogic. 

[tv-talk]

11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are various episodes of TOS in which subordinates lip off to Spock, and I probably could come up with examples from TOS where people "disrespect" Kirk as much as they have Pike

Let's hear'em then! Spock was the brunt of some disrespect at times for being an alien and for sure McCoy was quite hard on him- but the Dr was equal enough in rank and that was their relationship. I do not think in TOS you get subordinates mouthing off the way say La'an does basically every time someone talks to her. 

And I didnt just mean TOS btw, I dont think junior officers were pushing back on Picard much, certainly not on Sisko who would basically glare you into the wormhole for such a transgression. 

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

And I didnt just mean TOS btw, I dont think junior officers were pushing back on Picard much, certainly not on Sisko who would basically glare you into the wormhole for such a transgression. 

Shelby was the same rank as Riker when she roasted him... The only DS9 officer that bitched at Sisko was Eddington... Getting trapped in the turbolift with those kids was worse for Picard than any insubordinate Ensigns....

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Let's hear'em then! Spock was the brunt of some disrespect at times for being an alien and for sure McCoy was quite hard on him- but the Dr was equal enough in rank and that was their relationship. I do not think in TOS you get subordinates mouthing off the way say La'an does basically every time someone talks to her. 

And I didnt just mean TOS btw, I dont think junior officers were pushing back on Picard much, certainly not on Sisko who would basically glare you into the wormhole for such a transgression. 

What exactly are the examples in SNW where you are saying officers disrespected Pike or the chain of command? I don't think La'an mouths off when people talk to her.

I don't think it's fair to write off the numerous times where McCoy disrespected Spock's professional judgment as OK because they are close enough in rank or because that's the nature of their relationship.

The bulk of the shuttle crew disrespected Spock's authority on The Galileo Seven is a prime example. 

There are various examples in TNG and DS9 of junior officers bucking or disrespecting the chain of command in various ways. Riker basically gives Capt. Jellico the middle finger throughout the two-part episode Chain of Command. The Vulcan ensign in the TNG episode Lower Decks gives Geordi a fair amount of grief. Barclay is a problem officer in many of his appearances. Ro was uppity toward RIker and later Picard, albeit not to his face. Worf got called out for undermining Data when he was in command of the Enterprise in Gambit and there was that lieutenant who often flirted with insubordination toward Data in Redemption Part II. Pulaski was impertinent to Data throughout her season. Riker and Worf went on a mission to kidnap Riker's then-lover from Planet Androgyny in The Outcast. 

As far as DS9, there were various points in S1 where Kira did butt heads with Sisko and S4 Worf certainly did some grumbling about how Sisko and Odo did things, but the specifics aren't as clear to me. 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[tv-talk]

46 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are various examples in TNG and DS9 of junior officers bucking or disrespecting the chain of command in various ways. Riker basically gives Capt. Jellico the middle finger throughout the two-part episode Chain of Command. The Vulcan ensign in the TNG episode Lower Decks gives Geordi a fair amount of grief. Barclay is a problem officer in many of his appearances. Worf got called out for undermining Data when he was in command of the Enterprise in Gambit and there was that lieutenant who often flirted with insubordination toward Data in Redemption Part II. Pulaski was impertinent to Data throughout her season. Riker and Worf went on a mission to kidnap Riker's then-lover from Planet Androgyny in The Outcast. 

Great work from memory! So I dont think that Mccoy/Spock or Data/Pulaski qualify as they are all senior officers with MCCoy and Pulaski pretty much being equal to Spock and Data. Actually Pulaski is was probably higher than Data.

Barclay I recall more as a social misfit than anything else.

Riker and Worf...disobeying orders to go on a secret mission is standard Trek at all levels, that's just how the Federation works with requisite slap on the wrist as resulting punishment so long as you were successful in your unauthorized mission.

As for Galileo 7 mission- that was the ENTIRE point of that episode. As I said, Spock as an alien met with resistance. The fact the others on the shuttle would so openly question and insult him was supposed to be shocking. That happening was the plot of the episode specifically because it was so out of line and only happened due to him being "foreign" basically.

Meanwhile look how casually Ortega just tells Spock to stfu after she is disappointed about not going on the away mission. Aside from when he was on drugs attacking people with a foil- did Sulu ever speak to Kirk or Spock like that? I dont think so tho maybe I am not remembering something.