Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets

[CeeBeeGee]

Watching the last episode now. Did not realize that Josh's charges were federal. Man, he is fuuuuuucked. That sleazy mug shot of his...

Boob's audacity at running for state office while his shitty child molester son is on trial for downloading child pornography! Dude, read the room! His lashing out at Democrats, "cancel culture" whatever--dude, you and Josh are the problem. Not the boogieman of cancel culture. You and he are the problem. And your shitty wife.

Tia's story--Jesus. Jesus. I have had that "I heard a voice in my head" experience. (In my case a random dude flashed a knife at me and told me to go to the staircase and I remember hearing/thinking "And now is the time to scream out loud and fight back" just as though it were a flowchart.) I am so effing glad she listened to that voice.

I feel so tremendously sorry for Anna. She's in a very difficult position--she is expected to fight back against the husband she has been ordered, by every authority she recognizes and has been trained by birth to obey, to submit to, and fight back with tools she doesn't have. I really, really hope at some point she'll recognize the threat to her children--and to her self-dignity, and her sense of self--and leave.

 

[Notabug]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:10 PM, Avaleigh said:

To me the difference is that priests aren't allowed to get married. Additionally, this guy makes it seem like having a large amount of children is incredibly important, so it's odd to me that his followers give him a pass from not leading by example. 

The other difference is that Catholic priests all have at least a Master's degree and part of their education requires training in counseling.  Most professional counselors are trained to help people with all sorts of problems including problems that they themselves do not personally have.

[smittykins]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:10 PM, Avaleigh said:

To me the difference is that priests aren't allowed to get married. Additionally, this guy makes it seem like having a large amount of children is incredibly important, so it's odd to me that his followers give him a pass from not leading by example. 

Plus there are(admittedly rare)cases of widowers entering the priesthood following the death of their wives; it happened in my diocese back in the 90s.

[Notabug]

17 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Back in the day, JB was tight with Huckabee. However, I think they subsequently had a falling out. Shocker! I know. JB seems to be quick to burn bridges.

I don't think it was JB who burned that bridge.  Once Josh was arrested by the feds, I think Huckabee's advisors told him to back off.  Huckabee did defend the sister molestation because Josh was under age which, in his eyes, made it no big deal.

Quote

Plus there are(admittedly rare)cases of widowers entering the priesthood following the death of their wives; it happened in my diocese back in the 90s

I was on vacation and attending Mass in a different church.  During the sermon, the priest referred to Christmas shopping for his kids when they were small and to spending time with his grandchildren.  I was starting to wonder if I was in the wrong church.  It wasn't until the end of the sermon that he told the congregation that he had been married and had kids and entered the priesthood after the death of his wife after his kids were adults.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Notabug

[smittykins]

The case I remember was a mid-to-late-30ish man with an 8-year-old daughter who had lost his wife to an aggressive form of breast cancer.  He mentioned that he’d considered becoming a priest in his teens, “but then I discovered girls.”

[Notabug]

21 minutes ago, smittykins said:

The case I remember was a mid-to-late-30ish man with an 8-year-old daughter who had lost his wife to an aggressive form of breast cancer.  He mentioned that he’d considered becoming a priest in his teens, “but then I discovered girls.”

I had a friend who was a nun.  One day, she and another friend were gushing over how attractive a certain actor was who starred in a show they both liked.  I told her I was surprised.  She replied, 'My celibacy wouldn't be much of a gift to God if I didn't think boys were cute.'  Sometimes, it's easy to forget that nuns and priests are real people.

As far as Catholics go, there are some Episcopal priests who've converted and they are, of course, permitted to have wives and kids while serving as priests.

As for Gothard, he seemed mainly interested in underage girls and apparently had some sort of foot fetish; so his sexual preferences were not mainstream, and most likely, illegal.  It makes me sad that he undoubtedly assaulted more  women than have spoken out against him and that he will never be brought to justice.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Notabug said:

As for Gothard, he seemed mainly interested in underage girls and apparently had some sort of foot fetish; so his sexual preferences were not mainstream, and most likely, illegal.  It makes me sad that he undoubtedly assaulted more  women than have spoken out against him and that he will never be brought to justice.

Yes I agree. Also a wife would’ve been a liability- someone constantly in his space watching him, possibly challenging him, being able to be turned against him. I’m not surprised he never got married. 
 

I finished the documentary with my friend who grew up similarly- we both would’ve loved to hear MORE about how people escaped. The young couple who got out and how the husband got sober. My friend said she was super lucky to be able to escape from this when she did without too much damage. 

35 minutes ago, smittykins said:

The case I remember was a mid-to-late-30ish man with an 8-year-old daughter who had lost his wife to an aggressive form of breast cancer.  He mentioned that he’d considered becoming a priest in his teens, “but then I discovered girls.”

My Mom considered becoming a nun as the church would’ve paid for medical school, but although the celibacy commitment wasn’t ideal, it was the vow of poverty that made rethink things. She thought of all that work and sacrifice and dedicating your life to the church. I tend to agree with her, that sounds like a far bigger personal sacrifice than one of celibacy but people are different. Also like we saw in the documentary, money is the main motivator for these creeps. 

[Notabug]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I agree. Also a wife would’ve been a liability- someone constantly in his space watching him, possibly challenging him, being able to be turned against him. I’m not surprised he never got married. 
 

I finished the documentary with my friend who grew up similarly- we both would’ve loved to hear MORE about how people escaped. The young couple who got out and how the husband got sober. My friend said she was super lucky to be able to escape from this when she did without too much damage. 

My Mom considered becoming a nun as the church would’ve paid for medical school, but although the celibacy commitment wasn’t ideal, it was the vow of poverty that made rethink things. She thought of all that work and sacrifice and dedicating your life to the church. I tend to agree with her, that sounds like a far bigger personal sacrifice than one of celibacy but people are different. Also like we saw in the documentary, money is the main motivator for these creeps. 

My friend, the nun, was an OB/GYN doc.  She started out teaching high school science, got interested in medicine and her order paid for it.  She lived in a convent with other nuns for most of her career.  The only concessions made were that she had a separate phone line just for her (pre-cell phones) and a car that was hers alone to use (a Honda civic as recall).  Her paychecks went to her Mother Superior for the entire order. Later, the convent closed (not enough nuns these days), and she had a small one bedroom apartment.  Nice, but modest.  She was eccentric as can be and the life suited her.  I couldn't have done it.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Notabug

[irisheyes]

Watching Ep 4 now, and I had completely forgotten that JB ran for state senate WHILE Josh was on trial. OMG, his pomposity (and stupidity) knows no bounds. 

[roamyn]

I don't think Jill & Derrick's beef is only over $$$.  They seem generally upset that they had no control over what could be filmed, and how to live their lives.

And yes, while Derrick is an a$$ for his anti-LGTQ stance, he still is the one who helped open Jill's eyes to the greater world, to having a voice.

She loves wearing pants, a nose ring and dyeing her hair.  No way she'd be allowed to do at least the last two if she wanted to remain on the show.

And I doubt Derrick MADE her do this.  Jill seems to have gained some independence for herself, like saying she had no problem testifying against her brother, if necessary.  She sounded very firm on that, no quivering.

I do wish that she had come out against the baby buddy system, but if she doesn't feel that it harmed her, then I also want her to remain true to herself.

And as a survivor of assault myself (which no one in my family knows abt), I can't blame Jill for 1) not wanting to talk abt it 2) wishing it had never come out 3) leaving it in the past.  Of course, my assaulter wasn't my brother and I never saw him again.

I also applaud the other IBLP survivors for coming out and telling their truths.  They need to be recognized for what must have been a difficult decision in some cases.  I'm also glad they got men to talk how they, too are victims of this insidious Cult.

Edited June 11, 2023 by roamyn

[GeeGolly]

I think Jill, much like her sister Jinger, went from following the family's wishes to following their husbands. Both Derick and Jeremy have been in a pissing contest with JB. Jeremy from day one, Derick from when he started to getting negative online attention.

Jill, Jessa and Jinger were all shown wearing pants on the show. Jill's nose was pierced and Jinger went blonde while they were still on the show.

For sure I think Derick and Jeremy helped to open their wives' eyes - for their own selfish reasons - but IMO Derick put his wife in a really shitty position which cost her relationships she wasn't quite ready to lose. So Derick gets absolutely no points from me, just because he made JB look like the asshole he is. That was no secret as we all already knew that.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by GeeGolly

[floridamom]

I wish Jill discussed her upbringing more; like how she now feels about having to raise her 15 younger siblings, etc. We understand she has a financial grudge with her father and deservedly so but I wanted to hear more about her opinions now about her childhood.

[LilyD]

On 6/8/2023 at 10:35 PM, mostlylurking said:

I always wondered was she heavily medicated or just really that completely brainwashed?  

Michelle is Michelle in her own, rather egocentric way. She is also heavily brainwashed and has slowly morphed into an almost perfect Gothard role model. I'm sure she partly does it for her love for God, but it also gives her a certain level of prestige and status. And prestige and status matter a lot to people who are deeply in love with themselves and believe they are perfect, like Michelle. The baby voice Is incredibly annoying but iirc it is a typical Gothard thing that is highly encouraged in women.

 

[GeeGolly]

23 minutes ago, LilyD said:

Michelle is Michelle in her own, rather egocentric way. She is also heavily brainwashed and has slowly morphed into an almost perfect Gothard role model. I'm sure she partly does it for her love for God, but it also gives her a certain level of prestige and status. And prestige and status matter a lot to people who are deeply in love with themselves and believe they are perfect, like Michelle. The baby voice Is incredibly annoying but iirc it is a typical Gothard thing that is highly encouraged in women.

I agree. Michelle is definitely fully spiritually brainwashed and she is the perfect Gothard role model. But behind the scenes, IMO, Michelle is the one in charge. She props up her headship like she's supposed and because she has to. JB can't finish a sentence so Michelle does it for him. She makes him look like the perfect Gothard authoritarian husband, yet she runs the show.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, floridamom said:

I wish Jill discussed her upbringing more; like how she now feels about having to raise her 15 younger siblings, etc. We understand she has a financial grudge with her father and deservedly so but I wanted to hear more about her opinions now about her childhood.

I think Jill being her authentic self- someone who was born with a strong caregiving instinct and a since of duty, probably doesn’t feel like her caregiving responsibilities were a burden.
 

Jill is upset that she was sexually assaulted by her brother (and that pain was put on public view), financially exploited and lied to by her father, not to serve as a ministry but to line the pockets of evil people who hurt young people like she was hurt. THAT is what causes her great pain, and I understand that perspective. 
 

It’s one thing to disagree with an aspect of your childhood or a tenant you were raised with, it’s another to know your parents primarily saw you as a piece of property and were willing to sell your pain and vulnerability to the highest bidder. The former is accepting parents are people the latter is your entire sense of emotional safety and security being shattered. 

[Bethany]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Jill being her authentic self- someone who was born with a strong caregiving instinct and a since of duty, probably doesn’t feel like her caregiving responsibilities were a burden.

I agree.  I totally feel the Duggars took this aspect of how they raised their children to a ridiculous level but older children helping care for younger children isn't intrinsically wrong.  As an oldest child I had a lot of responsibility at a younger age and IMO that has served me well in life.  That is absolutely in no way meant to suggest that what the Duggars did was right!  But within reason it's the way things are in most middle sized to large families and if Jill doesn't feel that this was harmful to her that is her right.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Bethany said:

I agree.  I totally feel the Duggars took this aspect of how they raised their children to a ridiculous level but older children helping care for younger children isn't intrinsically wrong.  As an oldest child I had a lot of responsibility at a younger age and IMO that has served me well in life.  That is absolutely in no way meant to suggest that what the Duggars did was right!  But within reason it's the way things are in most middle sized to large families and if Jill doesn't feel that this was harmful to her that is her right.

I agree with you. I think wider mainstream culture has whole has a very head in the sand attitude about caregiving, ignoring it’s an actual skill and something most people will have to do in their lives. I had to provide caregiving for my grandfather and sister at an early age and it’s just a fact of life (and of course I’m still a caregiver for my sister, and my Mom as she has needed it).
 

I do give the Brown family (from Sister Wives) credit for making sure that boy and girl children had caregiving skills and teaching that it was just a part of making the family run. 

[dariafan]

10 hours ago, floridamom said:

I wish Jill discussed her upbringing more; like how she now feels about having to raise her 15 younger siblings, etc. We understand she has a financial grudge with her father and deservedly so but I wanted to hear more about her opinions now about her childhood.

Maybe it will be in the book 

[Starry-Eyed]

On 6/9/2023 at 8:18 AM, merylinkid said:

And yes, I feel sorry for Jinger Duggar.   She was the one standing there saying "I now I have sinned terrible and I can't save myself."   No honey, you are a little girl, your sins are little things that God understands, as long as you are sorry and try to do better (raised Catholic with the tradition of the sacrament of confession).   And God does not consider, I was mean to my brother as on the same level as murder.   But that's the problem.   EVERYTHING is a SIN and EVERYTHING is bad.   So if its all equally bad, they don't react appropriately to the big things.   So not instantly obeying your parents is the same as molesting your sisters. 

 To me, this moment exemplified the docuseries blending together normal Christian teachings, "fringe" elements, and out right cult behaviors and abuse all together with no differentiation.

What Jinger said in that clip is a simple statement of a foundational Christian doctrine - all human beings are sinners and require Christ's death on the cross to save them from their sins. Obviously, no one is required to accept this belief just because she says it, but the framing of this as evidence of her ingrained guilt was disingenuous. I'm sure thousands of Christians who most would see as "normal people" would also affirm her statement.

 

[LilyD]

I don’t think Jill’s ever going to tell us all. From what I understand, she’s still in touch with quite a few family members. Another attack, no matter how justified, could jeopardise those (fragile) relationships too. Family loyalty and love runs strong and she could lose them all by going public with everything else. I’m sure she’s afraid of that, which is what holds her back.

[GeeGolly]

Pulling away from toxic environments is a process. 

Jill just posted that she was watching SHP for the first time. I wonder what her feelings will be? She might actually be offended by some of what aired. Or possibly it could open her eyes even further.

I'm guessing whatever relationships Jill was able to mend after the fallout from the very public feud Derick had with her dad will deteriorate again because of SHP and Derick's book. I'm guessing only Jinger and Michelle will be left.

[pasdetrois]

Way back when the Duggars' show first aired I watched because of the adorable children. But even then I could not ignore: them taking charity (even as Jim Bob owned land and leased it for cell towers): too many children means insufficient nurturing from the parents; the use of little girls to run the household; and the use of blanketing. Three of those were flashing red flags.

Then much later we learned how they made excuses for Josh's abuse of his sisters.

Also, many pedophiles are "made not born." That is, they learn the behavior from someone else. Was Josh preyed upon by a family or church member? (Absolutely not excusing the behavior of this loathsome creep.)

I'm curious about Amazon not paying the participants and wonder if it's really true. So many victims sell out their stories for big bucks.

Edited June 12, 2023 by pasdetrois

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Way back when the Duggars' show first aired I watched because of the adorable children. But even then I could not ignore: them taking charity (even as Jim Bob owned land and leased it for cell towers): too many children means insufficient nurturing from the parents; the use of little girls to run the household; and the use of blanketing. Three of those were flashing red flags.

Then much later we learned how they made excuses for Josh's abuse of his sisters.

Also, many pedophiles are "made not born." That is, they learn the behavior from someone else. Was Josh preyed upon by a family or church member? (Absolutely not excusing the behavior of this loathsome creep.)

I'm curious about Amazon not paying the participants and wonder if it's really true. So many victims sell out their stories for big bucks.

My (then) teenage daughter was like you. Right away she was like, this is bullshit. She was appalled at the oppressive way the children were being raised - especially the daughters. When I told her about the docuseries, she was like, what took so long.

[AstridM]

7 hours ago, LilyD said:

I don’t think Jill’s ever going to tell us all. From what I understand, she’s still in touch with quite a few family members. Another attack, no matter how justified, could jeopardise those (fragile) relationships too. Family loyalty and love runs strong and she could lose them all by going public with everything else. I’m sure she’s afraid of that, which is what holds her back.

“Attack?” I don’t think she’s going to attack any of her siblings, other than FF.

[dariafan]

And me chelle being shown saying “ I don’t think I need to talk to Josh I’m going to talk to our Heavenly Father “. Yeah because that worked out sooo well in the past 

[salvame]

On 6/5/2023 at 5:29 PM, SnapHappy said:

By the time he gets out, his oldest will be married & his youngest almost a teen.  Way outside his age preference.  Only young nieces & nephews, and I don't imagine his siblings are going to let him near their young kids. 

What a sad commentary on family life.  

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

“Attack?” I don’t think she’s going to attack any of her siblings, other than FF.

I agree, Jill would never attack anyone. I do think though, Derick's behaviors toward JB and Jill's willingness to make them public (again) is seen as an attack of sorts on JB by some of the siblings and JB.

[salvame]

On 6/7/2023 at 8:09 PM, Salacious Kitty said:

before they were outed by In Touch.

Isn't that ironic

[Salacious Kitty]

3 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Way back when the Duggars' show first aired I watched because of the adorable children. But even then I could not ignore: them taking charity (even as Jim Bob owned land and leased it for cell towers): too many children means insufficient nurturing from the parents; the use of little girls to run the household; and the use of blanketing. Three of those were flashing red flags.

Then much later we learned how they made excuses for Josh's abuse of his sisters.

Also, many pedophiles are "made not born." That is, they learn the behavior from someone else. Was Josh preyed upon by a family or church member? (Absolutely not excusing the behavior of this loathsome creep.)

I'm curious about Amazon not paying the participants and wonder if it's really true. So many victims sell out their stories for big bucks.

I think it's possible that Jill and Tia Levings were paid. They were the main stars in this. Without Jill (and all the Duggar footage), is there enough meat to go with? 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I think it's possible that Jill and Tia Levings were paid. They were the main stars in this. Without Jill (and all the Duggar footage), is there enough meat to go with? 

I doubt it. From Amazon's point of view, the entire point of a limited-run docuseries like this is that, with the exception of the directors/producers/crew, nobody gets paid. 

[Salacious Kitty]

Just now, quarks said:

I doubt it. From Amazon's point of view, the entire point of a limited-run docuseries like this is that, with the exception of the directors/producers/crew, nobody gets paid. 

I forget who said it, maybe Jen from Fundie Fridays, but they said they weren't getting paid to ensure fairness. I heard this before seeing the final product, which had an obvious agenda. 

That's why I think Jill could have been paid. 

[Bethany]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree, Jill would never attack anyone. I do think though, Derick's behaviors toward JB and Jill's willingness to make them public (again) is seen as an attack of sorts on JB by some of the siblings and JB.

Yes, I think what Jill and Derrick have done is probably considered an attack by JB.  But most of the others likely believe  that Jill is being influenced by her husband so they're willing to cut her some slack.  After all in their world view women have no agency over their own words or actions.   

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I forget who said it, maybe Jen from Fundie Fridays, but they said they weren't getting paid to ensure fairness. I heard this before seeing the final product, which had an obvious agenda. 

That's why I think Jill could have been paid. 

I don't think the payment issue had or has anything to do with fairness. I think it had to do with what Amazon was willing to pay for this, which is not much. 

Which goes along with Amazon's specific agenda here, make money.

[Salacious Kitty]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

I don't think the payment issue had or has anything to do with fairness. I think it had to do with what Amazon was willing to pay for this, which is not much. 

Which goes along with Amazon's specific agenda here, make money.

Agreed. I'm just forwarding along what an interviewee said. 

[Absolom]

The general policy on these things is frequently the producers don't pay for the appearance but they pay to license photos, video footage, etc.  ET and other similar shows follow the same policy.  

[jcbrown]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:03 AM, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I agree. Also a wife would’ve been a liability- someone constantly in his space watching him, possibly challenging him, being able to be turned against him. I’m not surprised he never got married. 

And where was Gothard's accountability partner? Handy (or footy, in his case) that his rules did not apply to him.

[LilyD]

19 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree, Jill would never attack anyone. I do think though, Derick's behaviors toward JB and Jill's willingness to make them public (again) is seen as an attack of sorts on JB by some of the siblings and JB.

Thanks GeeGolly, that is what I meant when I wrote "another attack" in a previous post. 

And while J and D's anger is almost completely directed at JB, it is bound to affect Jill's siblings. Most of the Duggar kids seem pretty loyal to their parents and if it doesn't anger them, it sure brings them in a difficult position where they're basically forced to choose sides. I am also not underestimating JB's ability to turn his vision into an absolute truth toward the (younger) kids, making Jill and Derrick the bad ones in their eyes. 

I'm sure Jill doesn't want to lose them all, which explains her speaking but not speaking up. If it was up to Derrick, all the dirty laundrey would have been aired by now. In detail...

[floridamom]

I can't understand why the other adult children aren't angry that they, too, worked all those years on the show and were not paid. Don't they realize their father indentured them to him? Do you want to be paid too kids??? Sure, just sign here for a lifetime contract to appear and work for my show. Blackmail if you ask me. What a piece of sh*t Jim Bob and Michelle are. She let her husband do it and kept silent all those years. She cares nothing for her children....only her own self. They swindled their own children; how low can you go? These two are not examples of Christianity.

[quarks]

39 minutes ago, floridamom said:

I can't understand why the other adult children aren't angry that they, too, worked all those years on the show and were not paid. 

 

Jed! did make a comment defending his parents - one that was kinda buried among several other comments.

But Jinger seems publicly supportive of Jill's book, and the other adult children have been pretty silent. So, to be fair, for all we know, at least some of them are angry - but have decided for whatever reason not to say anything publicly. 

[Salacious Kitty]

41 minutes ago, quarks said:

 

Jed! did make a comment defending his parents - one that was kinda buried among several other comments.

But Jinger seems publicly supportive of Jill's book, and the other adult children have been pretty silent. So, to be fair, for all we know, at least some of them are angry - but have decided for whatever reason not to say anything publicly. 

Ben had an interesting sermon this past week. It focused on not whining or complaining, based on a passage from Phillipians. Was that code that Jessa was toeing the family line? Possibly. 

[LilyD]

3 hours ago, floridamom said:

I can't understand why the other adult children aren't angry that they, too, worked all those years on the show and were not paid.

Considering their very limited education and restricted access to the real world, I suspect the kids literally knew no better for a long time. Dad's the head of the family and as such, he controlled all the finances. The kids had no need for money as they couldn't go shopping and weren't allowed the things a typical teen spends money on (like gadgets and fashion) So I don't think they felt like they missed out on anything.

Things changed of course as they got older. It wouldn't surprise me if JB never considered the possibility of having to pay his kids and that they caught him by surprise. Can't remember where I heard it but there were persistent rumors a few years back that he paid some of them a rather meager wage or lump sum as compensation...

 

[jcbrown]

2 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Ben had an interesting sermon this past week. 

I heard your point but this sentence strikes me as something that could not possibly be true. 🤷‍♀️

[skatelady]

There was an interesting article in the NY Times yesterday, called "Shiny Happy People and the Toxic Quest for Certainty", by Opinion writer David French. Unfortunately it's subscriber-only, so I doubt you could see it if you don't have a subscription, but just a heads-up if you have access! The author attended an IBLP Basic Seminar in 1993 so that he could pursue a relationship with an IBLP-affiliated girl he was interested in. TLDR: he was appalled. And, no relationship.

[Bethany]

13 hours ago, LilyD said:

Can't remember where I heard it but there were persistent rumors a few years back that he paid some of them a rather meager wage or lump sum as compensation...

To be fair he has also provided most (all?) his adult sons with jobs of some kind or another.  The daughters are the ones who really got taken advantage IMO, and those who  married have some support if they did speak up, so if there was any kind of lump sum compensation it was likely to them.

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, skatelady said:

There was an interesting article in the NY Times yesterday, called "Shiny Happy People and the Toxic Quest for Certainty", by Opinion writer David French. Unfortunately it's subscriber-only, so I doubt you could see it if you don't have a subscription

It's possibly readable using a web archive.

[Shermie]

On 6/11/2023 at 11:11 AM, Bethany said:

I totally feel the Duggars took this aspect of how they raised their children to a ridiculous level but older children helping care for younger children isn't intrinsically wrong. 

Agree. It’s a normal part of being in a larger family, but the difference with average families and the Duggars is that the childcare ends for the older sibs at some point. And that brothers help out too. With the Duggars, it just kept on and on, and for the girls only.

Also agree that Jill probably didn’t mind the childcare aspect. Some people like taking care of little kids, some don’t. Some of my friends loved helping out in church and school when they asked for volunteers to help with little kids, I hummed and hawed and looked away. Heh. 

I’d love to hear Michelle break character and yell at someone in her real deeper voice, which you know must be in there somewhere (just like Michael Jackson). Woman has to crack at some point. 

How many kids does Anna have? What are her realistic options at this point?

[merylinkid]

There's older kids helping out and then there is older kids RAISING the younger kids.   Hey, can you look after your younger brother while I run to the store?    I'm cooking dinner and the baby needs changing/feeding/whatever.   In an age appropriate way.    What MIchelle did was "I'm bored with this tiny, wiggling, messy thing, your job now."   No matter how young the "sister mom" might be.   Jim Bob and Michelle didn't even home school -- they just parked the kids in front of a compputer as soon as they could.   They also had the older ones teaching the younger ones.   So they could go off and do whatever they did all day.

[Minivanessa]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:26 AM, skatelady said:

There was an interesting article in the NY Times yesterday, called "Shiny Happy People and the Toxic Quest for Certainty", by Opinion writer David French. Unfortunately it's subscriber-only, so I doubt you could see it if you don't have a subscription, but just a heads-up if you have access! The author attended an IBLP Basic Seminar in 1993 so that he could pursue a relationship with an IBLP-affiliated girl he was interested in. TLDR: he was appalled. And, no relationship.

I have a NYT subscription and can "gift" the article. But the link is only live for two weeks from today - so if you click it after June 28 or 29, you're probably SOL. Here's the link, shortened by bitly: https://bit.ly/3NvLaQP. I've never tried this before, hope it works, and please be gentle with me if it doesn't; I'll try to fix it if I goofed.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I have a NYT subscription and can "gift" the article. But the link is only live for two weeks from today - so if you click it after June 28 or 29, you're probably SOL. Here's the link, shortened by bitly: https://bit.ly/3NvLaQP. I've never tried this before, hope it works, and please be gentle with me if it doesn't; I'll try to fix it if I goofed.

Works perfectly, thanks.

I am one of the oldest in a large family and, while I certainly helped care for my younger siblings, I was NOT a sister-mom.  My parents were always the first line in child care, so, while I might   have changed a diaper or given a bottle on occasion to the baby; it was at my parents' request because they were busy elsewhere.  My youngest sister is almost 16 years younger than me and I and the other older sibs all babysat her when my parents went out; but that's what we called it: babysitting.  No, we didn't get paid, it was simply an expectation, but I was not parenting her.  My littlest sis used to beg my parents to hire a sitter for her because her best friends got babysitters who let them stay up late and they got special treats while she had us; getting her to bed on time and no extra goodies because mommy and daddy weren't home.  It didn't work; my parents didn't pay for sitters, they had 5 kids at home who would do the job for free.

[AgathaC]

Yes, I’m also the oldest of a large family with 11 years between baby sis and me. I changed a lot of diapers, helped get little ones dressed and, once I could drive, picked the occasional sister up from school. (I did get paid to babysit, though.)

 I have no issue with older siblings helping. I learned responsibility and developed very deep connections with my youngest sisters as a result. But I wasn’t even close to being a mom to them. My parents were always the first line there and the oldests got called up only when Mom and Dad were otherwise occupied. And if we had plans or homework, that came first.

What the Duggars and their ilk do is awful, both for the older daughters and for the younger kids. There’s no way a child can provide truly good, competent parenting.