S05.E08: The Princess and the Plea

[marybennet]

I liked hearing “How to Handle a Woman,” too, and it spoke really well  to themes in the episode. Interesting timing since a redone Camelot just appeared again on Broadway. The sexism of the song’s premise (women need to be “handled”) comes from the mindset of the era but is kind of beautifully and sadly offset by the idea that what one should do is just love the women in one’s life. I think that’s as close to non-sexist as someone like Abe could get. Someone above mentioned the film version of the song, but I believe what we heard was Richard Burton singing it from the original Broadway cast album. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:50 PM, shapeshifter said:

Pretty sure mom dressed almost that well in the '50s through about 1960 when she took the train from Connecticut to Grand Central Station to shop at Saks

I remember flying home from Okinawa to Travis AFB when Dad was stationed there (I was 13) and wearing a dress, stockings and low heals.  For a very long flight in the dead of night.  I have a friend who loves fashion, always looks marvelous (even if she's going grocery shopping) and LOVES to watch this show if only for the fashion and taste, in what she calls "the era before the slobbification of America...."

[Carolina Girl]

12 hours ago, marybennet said:

I liked hearing “How to Handle a Woman,” too, and it spoke really well  to themes in the episode. Interesting timing since a redone Camelot just appeared again on Broadway. The sexism of the song’s premise (women need to be “handled”) comes from the mindset of the era but is kind of beautifully and sadly offset by the idea that what one should do is just love the women in one’s life. I think that’s as close to non-sexist as someone like Abe could get. Someone above mentioned the film version of the song, but I believe what we heard was Richard Burton singing it from the original Broadway cast album. 

I was pretty sure that was Richard Burton.  

[Lake Erie Lass]

I don’t think I ever heard Burton sing it, so to me it sounded like Richard Harris (I’ve only ever seen the film version). Thanks for the correction. I didn’t know it’s back on Broadway. Would love to see the live production. So many really good songs in that show.

[iMonrey]

I may not have especially cared for the trajectory of this season overall, and I disliked the flash-forwards, but I will acknowledge the writing on this show is exceptional. It's on par with a lot of "prestige" shows without as many accolades, and that's too bad. The scene with Abe and his buddies at the restaurant was so well done and so surprisingly poignant. And the scene with Abe and Rose talking about Esther was so witty and clever. The show runs the gamut. And I even liked the flashbacks at the beginning.

I was not aware next week's is the last episode. How strange to do nine.

Quote

The scene at Grand Central Station was one of the few times I sided with Susie, because I do think Midge is being weirdly impatient, as if she somehow knows it's the second last episode ever. She's making good money for the first time ever, and is regularly booking additional paid gigs with her name on the marquee. 

Think of how shocked Midge must have been to find out Gordon's wife was Susie's roommate. All this time she's been working for Gordon and Susie never once mentioned it? That's not nothing. She must have known there had to be a reason Susie kept that to herself.

[Sarah 103]

Seeing Joel and Midge have flashbacks to the early years of relationship has convinced me they are going to an Elizabeth Taylor/Richard Burton kind of couple. They may not marry and divorce multiple times, but I could picture them drifting back to each other when Midge is between marriages. 

[SeanC]

On 5/19/2023 at 8:14 AM, debraran said:

Why does Gordon owe Hedy? Don't they both get something out of the marriage and she is the one hiding a bit behind him? I do hope the emergency isn't anything big and she does get a shot. Seems like this is it but still have Susie fallout.

Absent further explanation I think she was referring to landing him the big Princess Margaret guest spot.

[FaginZorro]

A nitpick: Dinah asks Susie, “You wanna try being black for a day?” In 1962, the vernacular was “Negro” not “black.”  Daniel, P, this show’s writer, slipped a bit. Do the scripts go by without even Wikipedia-type fact-checking? We can assume that this epi took place in 1963. “Black” replacing “Negro” as the moniker for African American descendants of slaves did not take place until circa 1968 when James Brown came out with “Say it Loud. I’m Black and I’m Proud.”

Dinah sure showed executive caliber balls and moxie in checking Susie and covering for her with James. Yes, it makes sense that Susie made her head of NYC operations in the future as Dinah could "deliver the goods."

Does anybody know what happened to sweet, kindly, and efficient Mrs. Moskcowitz?

Before Susie asked for Hedy’s influence in the studio, Hedy was talking to a couple about her work at an art gallery (probably as an owner) and that she was currently displaying Helen Frankenthaler, a prominent abstract expressionist painter and "the" hot artist of the day. The confidence with which Hedy conducts herself (with Midge, Susie, Gordon, and with the couple) speaks to money, education, connections, experience, and savoir-faire. I agree with the speculation that her marriage with Gordon is an arrangement that has mutual benefits for both. H and G have ease, familiarity, and affection and both are honoring the arrangement as evidenced by the convo about Thanksgiving with his parents. I also agree that Hedy is Susie’s former college lover, and based on her application of the colored wax in Gordon’s office, she is a “lipstick lesbian.” Shades of Marvel's “Patsy and Hedy” comics. She sure ain’t “Hedwig” of the Angry Inch. Interestingly, Gordon makes a big display out of dipping and kissing Hedy. Is H fully les or bi? Nina A is attractive, pleasant, well-costumed, and inhabits the role like a glove.

During this epi’s flashbacks about Joel’s mistakes, I conclude that his affair with Penny was not based on his needs (for sex, attention, or affirmation) but that his affair was a crime of opportunity and availability. While Penny was present, and was there in the office, she was not flashing her tits or vajayjay at Joel. While pleasant and efficient as a secretary, there was a dull edge with Penny that was not present with Midge. Midge was taking care of Joel’s sexual needs and had always done so. Yes, a young married couple has tiffs and spats (as we saw with the cab driver in Queens). But Midge had done her best to live up to being the 1950s ideal wife. Remember in Season 1 how it was shown how Midge and Rose would go to bed with their husbands, wait ten minutes till they were asleep, and then get up and slather on cold cream? They both would strive to wake up ten minutes before their husbands to wipe off the cream and “allurify” themselves so their husbands would wake up to a woman who was fresh and appealing. In Midge’s case, all of this effort and sacrifice was for naught.

Interesting to learn that all of the events of the S 1-5 took place within three years of the show's time frame as stated by Midge to her buddies at the luncheon. Interesting also to assume that her luncheon buds were also Jewish. The cattiness and bitchiness at the luncheon were funny and realistic. 

Interesting to learn that there is only a five-year age difference between Susan Myerson (Pembroke '48) and Miriam Weissman (Bryn Mawr '53.) Susie just seems like a far older soul. We can assume that Midge's ten-year class reunion takes place in the spring of 63, prior to the world-shaking event that took place in November '63.

 

[Quilt Fairy]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

but I will acknowledge the writing on this show is exceptional. It's on par with a lot of "prestige" shows without as many accolades, and that's too bad.

It's won a ton of Emmy's, especially the first couple of years.  If it was on Netflix or HBO instead of Amazon Prime it would probably be more well-known.

[wmdekooning]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:34 PM, SnapHappy said:

I think Hedy is a very intriguing character, and I'm glad they didn't introduce her any earlier in the Gordon Show narrative.  Her story with "Susan" better be a jaw-dropper and not just a lesbian relationship gone sour. 

About two or three episodes before we see Hedy on screen or that she’s mentioned as Gordon’s wife, Suzie is being escorted out of the studio building and someone shouted “Hedy!”. I thought someone was calling for the actress Hedy Lamar, but it seems they may have been calling Gordon’s wife as a sort of back door introduction…

Edited May 22, 2023 by wmdekooning

[shapeshifter]

It just dawned on me the the title of the episode, "The Princess and the Plea," is not only a reference to the fairytale, "The Princess and the Pea," but that it is a nod to Carol Burnett's "Once Upon A Mattress," which she did in 1964, when I was 11 years old. I loved it. 

[kwnyc]

6 hours ago, FaginZorro said:

Interesting to learn that there is only a five-year age difference between Susan Myerson (Pembroke '48) and Miriam Weissman (Bryn Mawr '53.) Susie just seems like a far older soul. We can assume that Midge's ten-year class reunion takes place in the spring of 63, prior to the world-shaking event that took place in November '63.

 

Yes, if it's the 10-year reunion, it's 1963...but as far as we have been told, the present we are in is 1961. That part bothered me. And yes, I thought that was Richard Burton as well, in the OCR of Camelot, which opened in 1960, so that's totally period. Oh, and Princess Margaret came to the US in 1965...and I will stop playing historian! ;-)

PS: Julie Andrews's first memoir, "Home" gives a delicious picture of what being in Camelot, and working with Richard Burton was like.

[MerBearHou]

I love Camelot and thought "that doesn't sound quite like Richard Harris" -- had to Shazam it to see it was indeed Richard Burton.  

The woman who played Princess Margaret was perfection in look, voice, manner -- I enjoyed that little segment, even if it never happened on Johnny Carson, Jack Paar, etc.  (it didn't, did it?)  The weather forecast was a brilliant direction to go (way to go, Midge).

[Sarah 103]

20 hours ago, FaginZorro said:

A nitpick: Dinah asks Susie, “You wanna try being black for a day?” In 1962, the vernacular was “Negro” not “black.”  Daniel, P, this show’s writer, slipped a bit. Do the scripts go by without even Wikipedia-type fact-checking? We can assume that this epi took place in 1963. “Black” replacing “Negro” as the moniker for African American descendants of slaves did not take place until circa 1968 when James Brown came out with “Say it Loud. I’m Black and I’m Proud.”

I don't think the writer slipped at all and in 1962 I think it could have gone either way ("black" or "negro"), especially with someone younger like Dinah. The book Black Like Me was published in the early 1960s, and the term was being used in discussions of the Nation of Islam. They were called "Black Muslims." 1962, 1963 is early but not impossible or a complete anachronism/error. 

[tennisgurl]

No flashforwards this week, makes sense as I'm guessing the last episode will be pretty heavy on the future scenes. I wasn't sure at first, but I have come to really like flashing back and fourth all throughout different stages in the characters lives, like seeing the early parts of Joel and Midges relationship and how Joel screwed it up. I don't think that Joel and Midge will permanently end up together, but I can see them being a couple that can never fully quit each other. 

I'm glad that they gave Tony one last big showcase before the show ends and let Abe have this revelation that he never appreciated Midge. At first I thought that the dinner scene was going on for too long, but it all came back around at the end. Its pretty big for someone like Abe, not only someone of his age and with his personality, to admit how wrong he's been, hopefully he actually says all of this to Midge. 

I like Hedy, interesting that it seems like she suspected that Midge isn't "just" Susie's client, or at least that was the vibe I got at the end. 

Its going to be sad to see this show go, I think that this has been one of the shows best seasons since the first. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 5/21/2023 at 9:24 AM, Lake Erie Lass said:

I don’t think I ever heard Burton sing it, so to me it sounded like Richard Harris (I’ve only ever seen the film version). Thanks for the correction. I didn’t know it’s back on Broadway. Would love to see the live production. So many really good songs in that show.

Burton did a revival of Camelot and toured in the 80's before he became too ill - I got to see him play Arthur when they came to San Francisco.  Actually it was during this time that there several other revival tours of musicals with the original lead - I saw Rex Harrison play Henry Higgins and Yul Brynner play the King of Siam.  

[lucindabelle]

The Camelot at Lincoln center is substantially rewritten. Merlin is no longer a wizard just an advisor. No NIMUE so we lose “follow me.” It’s Camelot without the magic. Some nice performances and scenery though.

 

and yes the song was perfection there. 
I was so confused by the ending. I guess we’re meant to be.

thanks for pointing out it shojld have been penn station. As a jersey girl I was like huh?? Trains from this direction go to penn…. (Sure she could have taken the shuttle from penn to grand central but then midge wouldn’t have known where exactly to ambush her. Also really? Why talk to her at the train station? Nice as it always is to see grand central that seemed contrived.)

esther ignoring the book was hilarious. Isn’t she onto 3 or 4? Can she even read? Her o e open: “dumb Dolly.”

[janie jones]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:15 PM, chaifan said:

TV writing is not an advancement for Midge, no matter who it's for, as far as Midge is concerned.  Her goal isn't to be a top TV writer, it's to be a nationally recognized stand up comedienne.  She took the Gordon Ford show writing job because she (and Suzie) thought that would be her "in", and a way to get her on the show.  It's a good job, and she's good at it, but it's not her career goal.  That's why she turned down the other writing job. 

I thought it would have made sense for her to take the other job so that she was no longer subject to the no-writers-on-the-show rule. Although that assumes Gordon wouldn't keep her off the show out of spite.

It annoyed me in the final scene that the receptionist got Midge's purse out of her desk. She's been working for the show how long and she still doesn't have a place to put her stuff?

[MartyQui]

10 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Burton did a revival of Camelot and toured in the 80's before he became too ill - I got to see him play Arthur when they came to San Francisco.  Actually it was during this time that there several other revival tours of musicals with the original lead - I saw Rex Harrison play Henry Higgins and Yul Brynner play the King of Siam.  

I saw all of those shows…summer of 1981 was a great theatre summer.  By the time Camelot had come to Boston, Richard Harris had replaced Richard Burton. And Cathy Rigby came through as Peter Pan.  I was working in a theatre and saw them all for free.

I haven’t loved this season, but I will miss the show when it’s gone.  Sometimes the Rose/Abe helpless and selfish show is just too much to take.  I hope we get answers to all of our questions in the next two episodes!

[luvthepros]

2 hours ago, MartyQui said:

  I hope we get answers to all of our questions in the next two episodes!

There is only one episode left.

[MartyQui]

Oh no!  I had it in my head that there were two left.  That’s a lot of story to wrap up in 60 minutes.

[QQQQ]

I just realized the Princess in the episode's title isn't referring to Midge. 😅

[luvthepros]

15 hours ago, QQQQ said:

I just realized the Princess in the episode's title isn't referring to Midge. 😅

I hadn't given it a thought. Who does the Princess in the title refer to?

[shapeshifter]

51 minutes ago, luvthepros said:

I hadn't given it a thought. Who does the Princess in the title refer to?

There's Princess Margaret, and then I've already mentioned the B or C reference to the title: . . .

On 5/21/2023 at 11:25 PM, shapeshifter said:

It just dawned on me the the title of the episode, "The Princess and the Plea," is not only a reference to the fairytale, "The Princess and the Pea," but that it is a nod to Carol Burnett's "Once Upon A Mattress," which she did in 1964, when I was 11 years old. I loved it. 

. . . maybe someone else whose family was less assimilated than mine might properly address the JAP reference?
Or not.

Edited May 24, 2023 by shapeshifter

[txhorns79]

On 5/20/2023 at 12:52 PM, Suzn said:

 

Having Susie be a "Pembrooke Class of 48 girl" does not work for me.  Not in how she was there to begin with, not in what she has been doing since and not in the timing. That's only 13 years and Susie seems quite a bit too old for that.

Yeah, the idea that Susie is only 35 is kind of ridiculous.  I think Alex Borstein is great, but she's 52 years old.      

[Oosala]

On 5/21/2023 at 8:34 PM, kwnyc said:

Julie Andrews's first memoir, "Home" gives a delicious picture of what [snip] working with Richard Burton was like.

Re: What I bolded - So does my marriage to an alcoholic/drug addict!  Anyway, I've always loved Julie Andrews.  That sounds like a good book for me.  Thanks.

[smartymarty]

Quote

 

I have been in Grand Central Station a hundred times.   I've never seen anyone there dressed even half as gaily as Midge.

Midge was just there to confront Susie upon Susie returning from Baltimore. Midge was not traveling through Grand Central.

Someone mentioned it should have been Penn Station. Although now all NY and Connecticut commuter trains (Metro North) go into Grand Central and all Amtrak and NJ Transit into Penn Station, it wasn’t always that way. I believe it changed in the late 1990s.

What amazed me about the Grand Central Scene is that the departures board was the old fashioned “flip” style. By the time I left NYC in 2001, that had changed to a digital board. I remember because I felt like an era had ended.

why did Midge have a vacuum cleaner at her reunion?

Edited May 27, 2023 by smartymarty
remembered something else

[EtheltoTillie]

I think she won the vacuum cleaner as a door prize at the luncheon. 

[lucindabelle]

I grew up in NJ and as long as I can remember trains from the south came in to penn station.(I’m 58, so I do not remember the grand old penn station.) 

NJ transit has never gone to grand central in my lifetime. In fact we only had direct trains since the 90s, before that they went to Hoboken and you took the path.

yes I do believe some Amtrak trains left from grand central but not the ones going south. 

[mostlylurking]

I think the “don’t” meant don’t go the conventional route….don’t follow the path most everyone else did.  Just DON’T to all of it.

I don’t like Heddy because of her dismissive, smug attitude every time she encounters “Susan”. I know it’s just a defense mechanism but it’s very unpleasant. I wonder why Gordon owes her.  She seems very jealous of Midge as well.

I didn’t recognize the actress playing Princess Margaret but her accent was god awful.  They couldn’t have gotten someone British, or at least someone who can do accents?

 

[mostlylurking]

On 5/20/2023 at 1:27 PM, Daff said:

Once upon a time…(sigh) people dressed (really dressed) to travel to and through settings far less grand than Grand Central.

Holiday best, patent leather, white gloves, hat. Silky stockings for women, ankle socks trimmed with lace for girls. As a teen, when styles relaxed a great deal, and I rode public transportation, I still remember seeing older women upholding that standard. 

I was definitely born in the wrong era.  I am usually the most dressed up person in the room, and it’s not like I’m wearing a cocktail dress to the school pick up line or anything, I’m just wearing regular clothes.

When I was a kid I used to fly overseas every year to visit family (yes all alone, it was allowed in those days which blows my mind today) and we would always dress up.  I would wear a dress, even at that young age.  There’s definitely something to be said for comfort, but I do wish I wasn’t the only oddball not in gym clothes or pajamas every day.  A lot of backhanded compliments lobbed my way.  Sigh, indeed.

[shapeshifter]

17 minutes ago, mostlylurking said:

I was definitely born in the wrong era.  I am usually the most dressed up person in the room, and it’s not like I’m wearing a cocktail dress to the school pick up line or anything, I’m just wearing regular clothes.

When I was a kid I used to fly overseas every year to visit family (yes all alone, it was allowed in those days which blows my mind today) and we would always dress up.  I would wear a dress, even at that young age.  There’s definitely something to be said for comfort, but I do wish I wasn’t the only oddball not in gym clothes or pajamas every day.  A lot of backhanded compliments lobbed my way.  Sigh, indeed.

Today and tomorrow are the last days to vote in the current PrimeTimer Awards here, including a category of:
Straight Off The Runway: Character With Best Wardrobe
which includes Midge as an option.

[bettername2come]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:24 PM, txhorns79 said:

Yeah, the idea that Susie is only 35 is kind of ridiculous.  I think Alex Borstein is great, but she's 52 years old.      

And to be perfectly honest, when I first saw her on Gilmore Girls in 2000 she looked older than 29. Granted, she has aged pretty well, but she seems to be constantly 40ish.