S05.E08: The Princess and the Plea

[Pallas]

A royal visitor at The Gordon Ford Show gives Midge a chance to shine.

[Quilt Fairy]

I wonder what the emergency was at the end?  

[millennium]

Abe, probably.

Are we supposed to like Hedy?  Because I do.

I have been in Grand Central Station a hundred times.   I've never seen anyone there dressed even half as gaily as Midge.

Edited May 19, 2023 by millennium

[Badlands]

That was another excellent episode. I can't believe there is only one more left!

When they cut to the dinner scene with Abe, I wasn't thrilled, but it ended up with a realization from Abe that had been a long time coming. One of the annoying things in the show was Abe, Rose and Joel's parents never taking Midge's accomplishments seriously. Of course, it was the 60s, so it wasn't at all uncommon for women to be diminished. It also put it into perspective when they mentioned Abe being born in the 1800s (if they're still in 1961, that would put his birth in 1897). Then again, Abe was supposed to be the enlightened one. It took Ethan's dimwittedness and Esther's possible genius to get Abe to look at the big picture, but at least he finally got there.

1 hour ago, millennium said:

Are we supposed to like Hedy?  Because I do.

I like her too. She doesn't seem to take any nonsense.

[debraran]

I love the banter with Joel at the school and with her friends from college. The quote about doing anything else but comedy, the "Lenny" moment which made me wistful.  Her vacuuming the dorm room and saying "What am I 80?" I felt like that too as I matured, although Midge will always have the streak of dare of the youth.

I'm glad Hedy talked to Midge. I wonder what broke Susie and Midge up for a while but I get why Susie was reluctant to talk about her personal life. She messes though with James because of Midge but doesn't want to help her with Hedy...that relationship cut very deep for her. It's never good hiding yourself but those days things were more ugly than today and today isn't perfect.

Abe's scene I agree was "What am I seeing this for?" Then it was poignant. My mom before she died was like that, thinking back, regrets and some cleaning out of things realized the boy in the family got more attention and the women were to be wives. But we evolve. I liked his speech very much. I hope he tells her in person but I think she knows.

Why does Gordon owe Hedy? Don't they both get something out of the marriage and she is the one hiding a bit behind him? I do hope the emergency isn't anything big and she does get a shot. Seems like this is it but still have Susie fallout.

Edited May 19, 2023 by debraran

[Crs97]

I like Hedy, too.  I thought the speech by Abe was beautiful, but I assume it’s the last time we see him alive.  Of course Midge won’t hear how much he respects her.

[EtheltoTillie]

So much to unpack here.  Abe's dinner felt like My Dinner With Andre levels of pretentious dialogue (I have never been able to sit through that movie), but it was an interesting conclusion where he had an epiphany about Midge, and his granddaughter.  This episode rounded up all the women's issues we've been discussing.  We learned that Susie and Hedy went to Pembroke College, which used to be the women's arm of Brown University.  Midge also went to a women's college.

I'll leave you with this woo-woo moment:  Midge could not remember why she wrote "Don't" on her note to her future self.  Then Hedy said to her "Don't"--as in don't sell yourself short, don't let the men take credit. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[DrSpaceman73]

Still finishing this but all the time jumps are annoying me now.  Like watching a science fiction show.  

[argrow]

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I like Hedy, too.  I thought the speech by Abe was beautiful, but I assume it’s the last time we see him alive.  Of course Midge won’t hear how much he respects her.

Abe was alive and well in Hawaii and concerned with that expensive cake he bought so he still has at least another decade.

Edited May 19, 2023 by argrow

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I like Hedy, too.  I thought the speech by Abe was beautiful, but I assume it’s the last time we see him alive.  Of course Midge won’t hear how much he respects her.

If so and that's very sad, he did have an audience who might mention it to her at funeral or sitting Shiva. I am hoping if so that is why he did it in front of witnesses. I hope before he dies, they have a good talk.

Edited May 19, 2023 by debraran

[Crs97]

3 hours ago, argrow said:

Abe was alive and well in Hawaii and concerned with that expensive cake he bought so he still has at least another decade.

You’re right, thank you!  I completely forgot about that one.  I wasn’t ready to say goodbye to Tony so that’s a relief!

[SnapHappy]

That really was a touching reveal into his soul that Abe gave his friends.  So rare for men to open up like that back in those days.  

The girl's school visit was cute, the message-in-a-bottle also pretty interesting. This show is never short on circumstances and things I've never seen before in current TV shows.  That was a very sentimental scene.  I think the "don't" there and what Hedy says is a coincidence, but I'm thinking before the end, Midge will remember what it means. 

I think Hedy is a very intriguing character, and I'm glad they didn't introduce her any earlier in the Gordon Show narrative.  Her story with "Susan" better be a jaw-dropper and not just a lesbian relationship gone sour. 

Really good episode though.  The scene with Rose advising Abe to put candy in the book made me laugh. 

[FaginZorro]

Would not Abe's sorrow at Ethan's ordinariness be more than offset by Noel's work with the CIA and the potential that Chaim represents? While it is good for him to have an epiphany about Midge and Esther and to acknowledge the female brilliance in his family line, there is no need to throw in the towel as Noel and Chaim might still show the Weisman greatness.

[DrSpaceman73]

I didn't care for this episode. 

Mostly because we are nearing the end of the series and have spent all season waiting for midge to get her break on Gordon Ford. Is that going to be it?  She gets her big break becomes a star and the in between on the show is just a huge gap other than the flash forward glimpses?   

Just seems like a whole lot of effort on a narrow part of her story this season. 

Not to mention I can't get over the fact she was offered a better job last week writing for her own show and passed it up. She keeps waiting for her 'break' from Gordon Ford well that was it.  She was recognized for her talent and given a chance to advance. And she ignores it and passes it up.  

I don't know this last season to me is underwhelming. It's reminding me too much of the last season of how I met your mother.  The writers are so focused on the beginning and end they envision and don't care about the rest in the vast middle. 

[chaifan]

26 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Not to mention I can't get over the fact she was offered a better job last week writing for her own show and passed it up. She keeps waiting for her 'break' from Gordon Ford well that was it.  She was recognized for her talent and given a chance to advance. And she ignores it and passes it up. 

TV writing is not an advancement for Midge, no matter who it's for, as far as Midge is concerned.  Her goal isn't to be a top TV writer, it's to be a nationally recognized stand up comedienne.  She took the Gordon Ford show writing job because she (and Suzie) thought that would be her "in", and a way to get her on the show.  It's a good job, and she's good at it, but it's not her career goal.  That's why she turned down the other writing job. 

It think there was a bit of filler/fluff in this episode, given how little time we have left.  I could have done without the college scenes, or the flashbacks of both Midge and Joel while they were in the principal's office.  (The principal's complaints about Abe were hilarious, though.)  I would have liked a little more insight into what's going on with Rose in the 70's.  Or more between Hedy and Suzie, er, I mean Susan.  Suzie's look when Hedy asked roundaboutly if Suzie had feelings for Midge... 

I liked the dinner scene with Abe.  I also liked the whole Princess Margaret doing the weather schtick.  I wonder if that has any basis in historical fact?  Did she do something like that on some show?  Did she appear on any US talk shows?  That just seems so un-Brit, un-Royal, but so very Princess Margaret. 

So, only 1 episode left?  Seems we have a lot to unpack still. 

[DrSpaceman73]

30 minutes ago, chaifan said:

TV writing is not an advancement for Midge, no matter who it's for, as far as Midge is concerned.  Her goal isn't to be a top TV writer, it's to be a nationally recognized stand up comedienne.  She took the Gordon Ford show writing job because she (and Suzie) thought that would be her "in", and a way to get her on the show.  It's a good job, and she's good at it, but it's not her career goal.  That's why she turned down the other writing job. 

It think there was a bit of filler/fluff in this episode, given how little time we have left.  I could have done without the college scenes, or the flashbacks of both Midge and Joel while they were in the principal's office.  (The principal's complaints about Abe were hilarious, though.)  I would have liked a little more insight into what's going on with Rose in the 70's.  Or more between Hedy and Suzie, er, I mean Susan.  Suzie's look when Hedy asked roundaboutly if Suzie had feelings for Midge... 

I liked the dinner scene with Abe.  I also liked the whole Princess Margaret doing the weather schtick.  I wonder if that has any basis in historical fact?  Did she do something like that on some show?  Did she appear on any US talk shows?  That just seems so un-Brit, un-Royal, but so very Princess Margaret. 

So, only 1 episode left?  Seems we have a lot to unpack still. 

A head tv writer would give her a lot better chance to appear on tv than a bit writer on the Gordon Ford show with an explicit rule against staff appearing on the show. 

If nothing else she could give a simple ultimatum :  put me on the show or I quit for the other job. Much more straight forward than having your agent who dated your boss' current wife in college forcing that wife to tell him to put her on the show.  

[shapeshifter]

Loved this episode.

Loved Abe sharing his revelation and regrets.
Shirley's suggestion that the Gordon Ford writer who got them standing tickets to the show was probably not someone Midge had ever met almost convinced me that Shirley believed what she was saying. 
But then when Abe told the guys that Midge bought their apartment  — that it was only Rose's "cover story" that Abe purchased the apartment  — I snapped back to believing that Shirley knows Midge is a big deal writer on the show, but that it's not ladylike, and so she needs a "cover story."

Likewise loved Joel's owning his regrets in his mind, re Penney.

Always love seeing H!ITG! Kenneth Tigar — here playing Abe's friend Arthur, who shares his own revelation about the meaninglessness of things that once seemed to have meaning and value.
My favorite parts he played were several characters on Barney Miller from 1976-81, a show that also has philosophy between the comedy, and often lets the characters be offensive lest we ever forget how awful their beliefs were (imdb.com/name/nm0863024).

Princess Margaret was played by Kate Abbruzzese, whom I thought I recognized, but apparently not (imdb.com/name/nm7873084).

 

On 5/19/2023 at 3:23 AM, millennium said:

I have been in Grand Central Station a hundred times.   I've never seen anyone there dressed even half as gaily as Midge.

Pretty sure mom dressed almost that well in the '50s through about 1960 when she took the train from Connecticut to Grand Central Station* to shop at Saks where the sales girls would take her more seriously if she looked like she could afford to shop there. Or even if we were just taking the train to see grandparents or cousins, so we wouldn't look like we'd "just got off the boat."
 

——————

*Or would it have been Penn Station??

Edited May 23, 2023 by shapeshifter

[bybrandy]

2 hours ago, FaginZorro said:

Would not Abe's sorrow at Ethan's ordinariness be more than offset by Noel's work with the CIA and the potential that Chaim represents? While it is good for him to have an epiphany about Midge and Esther and to acknowledge the female brilliance in his family line, there is no need to throw in the towel as Noel and Chaim might still show the Weisman greatness.

In fairness he said he didn't give each child what they needed to be better.  Noah is like him, very like him and he molded that.  He doesn't have Midge's fearlessness.  I think Abe wonders if he'd left Noah alone more if he'd have picked up less fear from Abe either by spending more time with his mother or by just exploring the world in an unfettered way.  

I don't think he is disappointed in Noah as he is wondering if he could have done better by Noah by doing more for Midge.  

My grandfather had only daughters and to that extent he treated them somewhat like boys expecting them to do all the chores a son would beause somebody had to do them.  My mom was very intelligent and did well in school.  Took college classes in high school and won scholarships to college but her dad couldn't see for her a better alternative than marrying the guy whose father owned two gas stations.  And when she went to college he insisted that aside from math that she also take secretarial or bookkeeping classes because that is how he could forsee her having a future because that is what women did.   My mom could split and stack wood but she also needed shorthand.

My mom was fearless.  She loved her father.   But she thought he was wrong.   And she was right.  She had a great career (although as that career was in computers learning to type didn't hurt) and the last time I went on a walk with him he showed me where my mother went to school and told me how proud he was of her being better than all the boys at math.  I told her when I got home an she wept because she never heard that.   She never doubted he loved her butt she never knew he saw her.

[zamp33]

9 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

So much to unpack here.  Abe's dinner felt like My Dinner With Andre levels of pretentious dialogue (I have never been able to sit through that movie), but it was an interesting conclusion where he had an epiphany about Midge, and his granddaughter.  This episode rounded up all the women's issues we've been discussing.  We learned that Susie and Hedy went to Pembroke College, which used to be the women's arm of Brown University.  Midge also went to a women's college.

I'll leave you with this woo-woo moment:  Midge could not remember why she wrote "Don't" on her note to her future self.  Then Hedy said to her "Don't"--as in don't sell yourself short, don't let the men take credit. 

Oh that was a good connection to "Don't" ! My thought was she was telling her past self  "don't" marry Joel, which leads her to  not to go have a drink with him. 

I am really sad there is only one more episode- I hope we see Lenny interact with Midge again. It does seems like there is ALOT to tie up next week.. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by zamp33
needed to fix a couple of words in a sentence

[whiporee]

I think the phone call is most likely about Lenny, his hospitalization or a meltdown. Or in jail. If it's not a parent, only Lenny could get her running out of the office. 

Which leads to my big prediction. Lenny had a meltdown, can't do a big show. He asks Midge to fill in, and she nails it, which brings her enough recognition to break into the big time, and probably as Parr wanting her to take that spot after all. In the finale we'll see her eulogize Lenny, and that will be what actually pushes her into the major leagues that we see her occupy in the flash forwards. It will also be what causes her to spiral, which is what leads to her isolation from her kids (to even more extent) and the meltdown she had on stage that we saw in 1968. 

Susie and Midge are going to be strained because the favor Susie asked for will never be needed or used. So Susie is going to resent Midge making her jump through hoops. And Midge is going to resent Susie because she once again had the major role in her own success. 

My other prediction is that Jimmy screws up the Parr spot. Susie's not saying he's not ready because of Midge -- she's saying it because this is all too fast for Jimmy. It's not racist as much as it is him not being ready yet. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by whiporee

[DrSpaceman73]

57 minutes ago, zamp33 said:

Oh that was a good connection to "Don't" ! My thought was she was telling her past self  "don't" marry Joel, which leads her to  not to go have a drink with him. 

I am really sad there is only one more episode- I hope we see Lenny interact with Midge again. It does seems like there is ALOT to tie up next week.. 

Based on the flashback to their early days I assumed don't was referring to Joel as well. 

[Lake Erie Lass]

I loved the epiphanies in this episode. This is the first episode that I actually liked Abe. It has bothered me BIG TIME that he told people he bought their apartment. He has been so self centered and obnoxious that I wanted to smack the crap out of him every episode. I’m glad he acknowledged his mistakes with his children, and expressed his pride in Midge.

Arthur’s epiphany about a lifetime of accumulating things for his and his wife’s home, only to look at it all down the line after her death as “stuff,” hit me hard in the heart. I can empathize. We get so attached to things, and they are a burden for our heirs when we’re gone.

Joel’s epiphany about his and Midge’s relationship, his reflections and regrets, were sad but instructive. 

The college roommates looking back on their life choices from a distance of time; most with some regret over missed opportunities to do more than settle for the status quo.

And Midge finally knowing that this was the time to go big or go home. Her conversation with Hedy helped her confront Susie to demand that Susie call in a favor. 

I am enjoying the ability to see how everyone turned out with the time flips and how the lives of these characters we’ve become so invested in progress through the decades.

I have a feeling I’m going to cry next week over some of these story lines….

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

Which leads to my big prediction. Lenny had a meltdown, can't do a big show. He asks Midge to fill in, and she nails it, which brings her enough recognition to break into the big time, and probably as Parr wanting her to take that spot after all. In the finale we'll see her eulogize Lenny, and that will be what actually pushes her into the major leagues that we see her occupy in the flash forwards. It will also be what causes her to spiral, which is what leads to her isolation from her kids (to even more extent) and the meltdown she had on stage that we saw in 1968.

Oh, that's a really good prediction.  If it doesn't happen, they better come up with something as good as this. 

2 hours ago, whiporee said:

My other prediction is that Jimmy screws up the Parr spot. Susie's not saying he's not ready because of Midge -- she's saying it because this is all too fast for Jimmy. It's not racist as much as it is him not being ready yet. 

This is a good possibility, too.  However, I don't think Susie's treatment of Jimmy - trying to get him to turn down the Parr spot and saying "it's not your turn" has anything to do with race.  Or with whether Jimmy was ready.  It's all Midge.  I think she knows Midge rightfully deserved that spot, and that they were offering the spot to Jimmy as a consolation prize to her (Susie).  Midge has been working for this longer and harder than Jimmy - that's what she means by "it's not your turn".  It was Midge's turn, and Susie was taking a scorched earth approach - if they couldn't have Midge they couldn't have any of her people.  Not a great approach to take as a manager, but she was pissed at Parr's guy and wanted to deny him what he wanted.  

[millennium]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

My favorite parts he played were several characters on Barney Miller from 1976-81,

I recognized him immediately as the werewolf guy from Barney Miller.   He has played many parts in the years since but I always think "werewolf guy."

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

Which leads to my big prediction. Lenny had a meltdown, can't do a big show. He asks Midge to fill in

Unpopular opinion: I dislike the Lenny Bruce character and think the show would have been fine without him.  I have no real life associations or memories of Lenny Bruce, so no loss.

[shapeshifter]

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

Unpopular opinion: I dislike the Lenny Bruce character and think the show would have been fine without him.  I have no real life associations or memories of Lenny Bruce, so no loss.

Aw, but the "chemistry" and the dialogue and repartee and mutual respect and caring between the characters of Midge and Lenny…*swoon* 😚
Reminds me of all those should-have-been encounters from my youth.

But mileage does vary. 

 

1 hour ago, Lake Erie Lass said:

This is the first episode that I actually liked Abe. It has bothered me BIG TIME that he told people he bought their apartment. He has been so self centered and obnoxious that I wanted to smack the crap out of him every episode. I’m glad he acknowledged his mistakes with his children, and expressed his pride in Midge.

It's pretty unusual for a show to be able to have a character make such a change like this and make it believable.
I firmly believe that leopards cannot change their spots. 
Did I just want to believe that Abe has changed?
Or is it really believable to most viewers that Abe had a late-in life revelation such as this? 
I think it works for me because he had always seen himself as a sort of leftist revolutionary. It fits with Abe having quit his tenured position at the university, causing the family to lose their home.
Only this time, he's not doing anything stupid that could injure his family.
He's just changing his mind.

[millennium]

11 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I firmly believe that leopards cannot change their spots. 
Did I just want to believe that Abe has changed?

Abe will find a way to spin it as a validation of his superiority, like it's only his elevated degree of enlightenment that enables him to experience an epiphany and acknowledge his own ignorance

[QQQQ]

19 hours ago, millennium said:

 

I have been in Grand Central Station a hundred times.   I've never seen anyone there dressed even half as gaily as Midge.

I distinctly remember two of my favorite crayons from the 70s being the same colors as Midge's dress in that scene. 

[bybrandy]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Did I just want to believe that Abe has changed?
Or is it really believable to most viewers that Abe had a late-in life revelation such as this? 
 

I have known fathers of only daughters to have these epiphanies.  And they are always applauded and I try but the whole time I'm thinking that's nice but did it never occur to you that your mother, sisters, girlfriends and wives were also people?  

I think Abe is sincere but how that changes how he treats women as a whole vs just Esther?  I don't know.   One difference though is Chaim is going to grow up seeing Abe respect Esther's intellect which is something Noah didn't get.  

[kwnyc]

The scene with the men talking reminded me of a one-act play, and the acting soared. (And the writing, as well).

If "Susan" went to Pembroke aka Girl Brown, it must have been on scholarship, because we know she's a kid from the Rockaways. So did she have dreams of having a middle-class career? Chances are she knew other women who married men rather than come out (see also LUGs, Lesbians Until Graduation). I AM very interested in Hedy & Gordon's deal. If she's the sort of person who can get Princess Margaret to come on the Gordon Ford show, she must be VERY socially connected. Maybe that's why he married her: he wanted to look like an upper class WASP. (Remember, we heard that before George found him, he was a weatherman on some small TV station).

I'm very glad Dinah stood up to Susie about James and she went to see him (and book him on Parr). NYC nitpick: the train from Bmore would have come into Penn Station, which doesn't exist now in its most majestic form. Fortunately, thanks to Jackie Kennedy, we still have Grand Central.

Also, at least if The Crown was reliable, Princess Margaret DID visit the US and made a great impression, but that was in around '64 (she met with President Johnson). Bu I don't mind a little historical rearrangement.

I don't know how they're going to wrap it all up in one more episode! 

 

 

[Quilt Fairy]

34 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

I don't know how they're going to wrap it all up in one more episode! 

Well, they're not bound by a broadcast network timeslot, so they can make it as long as they like.  Also, I've seen rumors of a potential movie.

[quangtran]

11 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Mostly because we are nearing the end of the series and have spent all season waiting for midge to get her break on Gordon Ford. Is that going to be it?  She gets her big break becomes a star and the in between on the show is just a huge gap other than the flash forward glimpses?   

Yes. The official press summary for this show (since the very beginning) has been about how Midge goes from housewife to being a guest on Johnny Carson's couch. Of course there was a slight change of plan with replacing Carson with the fictional Ford, but the endgame is the same as it has been since day one. The flash-forwards are simply there to answer all the questions from beyond the 50-60's timeline.
 

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

Her goal isn't to be a top TV writer, it's to be a nationally recognized stand up comedienne.

The scene at Grand Central Station was one of the few times I sided with Susie, because I do think Midge is being weirdly impatient, as if she somehow knows it's the second last episode ever. She's making good money for the first time ever, and is regularly booking additional paid gigs with her name on the marquee. 

[bybrandy]

9 hours ago, whiporee said:

I think the phone call is most likely about Lenny, his hospitalization or a meltdown. Or in jail. If it's not a parent, only Lenny could get her running out of the office. 

People Midge would run out of the office to see in an emergency?  Her parents, Joel, Joel's parents, Ethan, Estther, and Suzie.  I'm not saying it isn't about Lenny (although I find it implausible that Lenny would call her at the Gordon Ford show) but I can think of loads of People that would have Midge sprinting off to check on.  

9 hours ago, whiporee said:

Which leads to my big prediction. Lenny had a meltdown, can't do a big show. He asks Midge to fill in, and she nails it, which brings her enough recognition to break into the big time, and probably as Parr wanting her to take that spot after all. In the finale we'll see her eulogize Lenny, and that will be what actually pushes her into the major leagues that we see her occupy in the flash forwards. It will also be what causes her to spiral, which is what leads to her isolation from her kids (to even more extent) and the meltdown she had on stage that we saw in 1968. 

Susie and Midge are going to be strained because the favor Susie asked for will never be needed or used. So Susie is going to resent Midge making her jump through hoops. And Midge is going to resent Susie because she once again had the major role in her own success. 

I genuinely hope this is not how it goes down.  I like the chemistry between Luke Kirby an Rachel Brosnahan as much as anybody but this whole past episode is about women standing up and taking their shot and taking credit while I don't love that Suzie was put in the position to leverage an ex for Midge I prefer that to Midge being in the situation she's been fighting against with Gordan Ford this whole time which is having to not know if her big break came from her badass comedy skills but rather because of a physical relationship.  Lenny respects Midge as a comic, sure, but if he's responsible for her big break then it isn't her getting it on her own, it is about what doors a man opens for her and that is not my preference.

9 hours ago, whiporee said:

My other prediction is that Jimmy screws up the Parr spot. Susie's not saying he's not ready because of Midge -- she's saying it because this is all too fast for Jimmy. It's not racist as much as it is him not being ready yet. 

I don't think Suzie's rant to James was about racism it was about her being frustrated that Midge has paid more dues for longer than James and Suzie can't get her where she knows Midge should be while it is being offered to James.   There is a huge white privilege to not immediately knowing that James is also going to have doors slammed in his face because of his race and that she can't afford to let an open door close.   But I don't think she did that because she is racist or because James isn't ready, she did that because she had a terrible moment.   But if she really believed James wasn't ready because he is too green or because she's a raging racist then she doesn't call Paar and she doesn't get on that train to Baltimore.   

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, quangtran said:

The scene at Grand Central Station was one of the few times I sided with Susie, because I do think Midge is being weirdly impatient, as if she somehow knows it's the second last episode ever. She's making good money for the first time ever, and is regularly booking additional paid gigs with her name on the marquee. 

But a big part of Midge’s on stage presence was her attractiveness. Older women can be comics too, but Midge only had at most another decade to be a funny young woman. The girls in the dorm asking Midge and her same-age friends if they had daughters attending the college points to the sands of time slipping away. And Midge made it clear to her friends that she loved being on stage more than anything else.

[debraran]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But a big part of Midge’s on stage presence was her attractiveness. Older women can be comics too, but Midge only had at most another decade to be a funny young woman. The girls in the dorm asking Midge and her same-age friends if they had daughters attending the college points to the sands of time slipping away. And Midge made it clear to her friends that she loved being on stage more than anything else.

yes, they might exist, but there are more older male comics even now. Our culture makes women even today work harder to fit in but it's a hard business and showing how she sacrificed family was a reality. You can't be touring or out until 1am without strong help if you have children. I wouldn't mind Joel coming back if Midge wanted him but he did step up as a dad considering the time it is in and her parents etc. In a way even if not supporting her with words, they helped her when other families might have made it much more difficult.

[ahpny]

11 hours ago, kwnyc said:

NYC nitpick: the train from Bmore would have come into Penn Station, which doesn't exist now in its most majestic form. Fortunately, thanks to Jackie Kennedy, we still have Grand Central.

All true of course, and other shows have shown the former Penn Station in all its glory, through CGI or otherwise (I recall the short lived show Pan Am did that). They spend a lot on many things, like wardrobe, so I forgive them their Grand Central slip up. Their budget isn't infinite and comprise is always needed.

 

23 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

That really was a touching reveal into his soul that Abe gave his friends.  So rare for men to open up like that back in those days.  

Well written, well acted and unexpected poignant.

The mystery with "Susan" and Hedy was an odd choice to throw in just before the conclusion of the series. Also odd to make "Susan" a "Pembroke girl." That seemed to come out of nowhere and inconsistent with just about everything we've ever seen about Suzie. On the other hand, they've teased the "arrangement" aspect of Hedy and Gordon' marriage many times.

Edited May 20, 2023 by ahpny

[watch2much]

my thought about the call was maybe it was Jack Parr calling because they needed someone at the last minute.

[SnapHappy]

19 minutes ago, watch2much said:

my thought about the call was maybe it was Jack Parr calling because they needed someone at the last minute.

Oooh, I like that.  It could have been Suzie with THE.BIG.NEWS. 

Doubtful it would have anything to do with Lenny, he was married.  Maybe about one of her kids, or a health scare about one of her parents. 

Do we know the running time of the last episode?  Do they reference that anywhere?  I didn't see it on IMDB or the Wiki page. 

 

[Oosala]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Aw, but the "chemistry" and the dialogue and repartee and mutual respect and caring between the characters of Midge and Lenny…*swoon* 😚
Reminds me of all those should-have-been encounters from my youth.

I'm right there with you, @shapeshifter.  Why didn't I let Mike do what he wanted to do with me.  I was so deeply in love with him and I stopped him.  I blame Catholicism.

Like many of you, this is the first time in a long time I actually liked Abe.  For a man, dining with his male peers, to make that kind of soul-baring confession, took real guts.  Especially in that era.  And I don't think that has changed much even today.

I really liked this episode.

[fishcakes]

14 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

 

Do we know the running time of the last episode?  Do they reference that anywhere?  I didn't see it on IMDB or the Wiki page. 

I haven’t seen a time listed anywhere either, but since they’re also showing the finale in a few theaters around the country, I’m guessing it’s at least 90 minutes.

[Suzn]

I don't dislike Lenny Bruce, but I find him a tragic figure rather than romantic and can't forget how he ends up - broke and overdosing.  So the relationship with Midge just does nothing for me.

I liked Abe's epiphany.  It doesn't mean that the leopard has changed his spots and that he is suddenly not the narcistic man he has always been, but I believe that he could genuinely "see" Midge for the first time. I doubt that he would change much toward Midge but could be much more supportive of Ester.

Having Susie be a "Pembrooke Class of 48 girl" does not work for me.  Not in how she was there to begin with, not in what she has been doing since and not in the timing. That's only 13 years and Susie seems quite a bit too old for that.

[Daff]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:23 AM, millennium said:

I've never seen anyone there dressed even half as gaily as Midge.

Once upon a time…(sigh) people dressed (really dressed) to travel to and through settings far less grand than Grand Central.

Holiday best, patent leather, white gloves, hat. Silky stockings for women, ankle socks trimmed with lace for girls. As a teen, when styles relaxed a great deal, and I rode public transportation, I still remember seeing older women upholding that standard. 

[chessiegal]

In the 1960s, my Dad liked to take us to Philadelphia airport to watch planes take off and land. No restrictions on who could be at the gates. None of us had been on an airplane - couldn't afford it. But I remember everyone being dressed up in Sunday best. My most poignant memory was of a young woman whose husband or boyfriend was heading off to the military somewhere. She was practically hysterical. It made an impression. 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, chessiegal said:

In the 1960s, my Dad liked to take us to Philadelphia airport to watch planes take off and land. No restrictions on who could be at the gates. None of us had been on an airplane - couldn't afford it. But I remember everyone being dressed up in Sunday best. My most poignant memory was of a young woman whose husband or boyfriend was heading off to the military somewhere. She was practically hysterical. It made an impression. 

That would've been Vietnam

[chessiegal]

Just now, shapeshifter said:

That would've been Vietnam

Yes indeed.

[Sarah 103]

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Aw, but the "chemistry" and the dialogue and repartee and mutual respect and caring between the characters of Midge and Lenny…*swoon* 😚

Lenny and Midge are the definition of chemistry, heat, intensity and everytime they are on screen, it is major swoonage for me.  

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

It's pretty unusual for a show to be able to have a character make such a change like this and make it believable.
I firmly believe that leopards cannot change their spots. 
Did I just want to believe that Abe has changed?

I think we know that he at least changed how he saw and treated Esther. Esther's therapy session that started off the season was in the early 1980s. We know Abe was still alive in the early 1970s. The way the Esther talked about Abe and that he was the only who understood her felt like that had a pretty close special relationship and that his death was probably fairly recent (late 1970s or early 1980s). 

14 hours ago, kwnyc said:

I AM very interested in Hedy & Gordon's deal. If she's the sort of person who can get Princess Margaret to come on the Gordon Ford show, she must be VERY socially connected. Maybe that's why he married her: he wanted to look like an upper class WASP. (Remember, we heard that before George found him, he was a weatherman on some small TV station).

This makes sense to me. She gets the cover of being a married woman, because in that time and place almost no one outside of the entertainment thought that a married person could be gay or lesbian or anything other than heterosexual. Gordon gets all of her connections and the ability to look pure establishment. 

1 hour ago, Daff said:

Once upon a time…(sigh) people dressed (really dressed) to travel to and through settings far less grand than Grand Central.

Holiday best, patent leather, white gloves, hat. Silky stockings for women, ankle socks trimmed with lace for girls. As a teen, when styles relaxed a great deal, and I rode public transportation, I still remember seeing older women upholding that standard. 

This is so true. It's more or less generational. 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Lenny and Midge are the definition of chemistry, heat, intensity and everytime they are on screen, it is major swoonage for me.  

I think we know that he at least changed how he saw and treated Esther. Esther's therapy session that started off the season was in the early 1980s. We know Abe was still alive in the early 1970s. The way the Esther talked about Abe and that he was the only who understood her felt like that had a pretty close special relationship and that his death was probably fairly recent (late 1970s or early 1980s). 

This makes sense to me. She gets the cover of being a married woman, because in that time and place almost no one outside of the entertainment thought that a married person could be gay or lesbian or anything other than heterosexual. Gordon gets all of her connections and the ability to look pure establishment. 

This is so true. It's more or less generational. 

I'm 62 and found a BW pic of me at 4 at a zoo in Sunday best  dress and shoes and my dad was in a suit jacket next to a lamb. I was like "aren't we a bit overdressed for the pettting zoo? " I guess that was just the way it was. ; )

Joel (Mike)said he took some "antique" ties but Rachel only joked in interview she stole some coats, she wouldn't wear most of her dresses etc. now. Although she's thin, she said it was hte undergarments that killed her, the corset, the girdle, the nylons and slips. I thought you needed a corset? They did give her a very tiny waist. She said it was impossible to pee.

Edited May 20, 2023 by debraran

[Lake Erie Lass]

I forgot to comment in my original post how much I loved the final musical selection. “How to Handle a Woman” from the film Camelot. Richard Harris sang this so beautifully—full of angst and melancholy as he pondered his relationship with Guinevere (who has become enamored of Sir Lancelot). The music plays as Gordon Ford, after being coerced by Hedy to put Midge on the show, watches Midge take a phone call and run out the door. Not sure if the theme is for Hedy, Midge, or both. I’ve had an ear worm all day thinking about this song, as well as its relevance to the final episode.

[Cosmocrush]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:34 AM, SnapHappy said:

That really was a touching reveal into his soul that Abe gave his friends.  So rare for men to open up like that back in those days.  

Yeah, that's because this is fiction.   I don't think men and fathers  really did (open up like that) but Abe is the kind of fictional, self absorbed character that probably would,

[DrSpaceman73]

No one dresses up to travel anymore Now everyone thinks $300 and a photo ID gives them the right to fly through the air like the guardians of gahoole. 

Everytime they show 30 rockefeller plaza I feel like the 30 rock song is missing

 

The Abe conversation reminded me of the old, younger Chris eigemam days when he was in metropllolitan 

[NeenerNeener]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:34 PM, SnapHappy said:

I think Hedy is a very intriguing character, and I'm glad they didn't introduce her any earlier in the Gordon Show narrative.  Her story with "Susan" better be a jaw-dropper and not just a lesbian relationship gone sour. 

Well, so much for my speculation that Gordon was one of Midge's other 3 husbands. I like Hedy too much so I don't want that to happen.