S44.E11: I’m Not Worthy

[Drogo]

15 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

Wait...what?  I thought that was what the big deal about being the lone survivor was...

I mean he does it after the reunion, if they don’t need you for returning player seasons, but still… it’s not right after TC. 

[Ellee]

Was it Lauren’s name that was written?

I thought it was Carson’s with a ‘K’ that was crossed out and then Danny’s. 
 

If that was it … I got a little giggle … ‘Sure, Danny, go ahead … tell me to vote for Karson … I did then changed to who I wanted to vote for.’

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

The real question for me is why did Jaimie and Lauren vote for Heidi? Do they prefer to be in a 4 people alliance with Heidi and Danny or in a 5 people alliance with Carson, Carolyn and Yam Yam? I get that Danny seems more of a challenge threat but so is Carson with his puzzle abilities plus Carson has two tight allies while Danny has only one. Danny would lose immunity sooner than later and they could vote him out then. Jaimie and Lauren don't know how to play the game.

If they count Carson as Ratu, then there are 3 Ratu (Jaimie, Lauren and Carson), 2 Tika (Yam Yam and Carolyn) and 2 Soka (Danny and Heidi). They are aware that Carson, Yam Yam and Carolyn are voting Danny. But if they also vote Danny, what if Danny has an idol or wins his Shot in the Dark? Then whoever Danny and Heidi vote for automatically goes. Voting Heidi means that Soka is down to one member, pretty much regardless unless both Danny and Heidi have idols and play them or otherwise obtain immunity, which is too long a shot to contemplate. Under most normal circumstances, either Danny goes on the first vote, or there is a tie between Heidi and whoever Danny and Heidi chose to vote for. On revote, Jamie, Lauren, Carson, Carolyn and Yam Yam just vote Heidi. 

As to what happens next vote, Jaimie and Lauren can pull Heidi in to get rid of Yam Yam, Carson or Carolyn. They may incorrectly think that they have more time than they do, or that Carson/Yam Yam and Carolyn are less of a threat than they actually are. Right now, I don't know if I have an odds-on favorite to win of the remaining six, but I would put Lauren and Jaimie as least likely to win the million. I'm not sure what they have on stiff on their resumes or in their social games that would get people to stand up and notice.

Yam Yam: One individual immunity win, well liked guy.

Carolyn: Found idol, and extremely likeable. Has very little blood on her hands. Will be able to tug heartstrings as mom, recovering addict. Almost certainly has jury votes of Frannie and Matt locked up if she is in F3, possibly more.

Carson: Superfan who is very adept at puzzles and threw a lot of time preparing for this. He can try to play the "young guy" card and the "played when I was throwing up" card.

Heidi: Found idol and so will almost certainly play it next tribal get to F4.

Lauren: She did have an individual immunity win, but I forgot the details.

Jaimie: She has had the misimpression that she had a real idol when she had a fake, and she thinks she is a much stronger player and is much more convincing than she is.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Or it’s like trying to tread water under a small grate longer than a few other people.  If they’re not being strapped to a board or held on the floor, it’s not like waterboarding. 

It’s unpleasant for sure- but well-supervised and completely voluntary.  No different than “Stand on these pegs until your feet feel like they’re about to burst.” 

The difference is that there is no possibility of dying or experiencing injuries beyond blistering from standing on the peg, and there is no psychological aspect to it. It's strictly pain tolerance. Once you can't take it any more, you get off, and the pain lessens and eventually goes away. There's no external factors that affect that decision to step off the peg.

With the water thing, there are a bunch of risks. Water can still get in your mouth and nose and prevent your breathing properly, you can hit your head against the grate and get concussed, you can panic enough and make a mistake that cost you your health. Those (and other) risks may be minimal because I assume that off screen there are people who are going to be able to grab contestants and get them air if needed and perform other life-saving measures. But those risks still exist.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The difference is that there is no possibility of dying or experiencing injuries beyond blistering from standing on the peg, and there is no psychological aspect to it. It's strictly pain tolerance. Once you can't take it any more, you get off, and the pain lessens and eventually goes away. There's no external factors that affect that decision to step off the peg.

With the water thing, there are a bunch of risks. Water can still get in your mouth and nose and prevent your breathing properly, you can hit your head against the grate and get concussed, you can panic enough and make a mistake that cost you your health. Those (and other) risks may be minimal because I assume that off screen there are people who are going to be able to grab contestants and get them air if needed and perform other life-saving measures. But those risks still exist.

This is pretty straightforwardly “Stay as long as you can and when you can’t get air, close your mouth and swim out.”  It’s not a competition for who can go without air the longest.

They do much worse than this both in challenges and outside of them that for me, this one doesn’t even rank.  This season alone, Matt fell at least twelve feet on a giant rock and poor Bruce slammed his head into a wooden beam at full speed.  Both of those could’ve been life threatening.   Then there’s the crazy shit they have them doing (like moving an Indiana Jones size boulder) in sweltering heat that most of them are not used to.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

This is pretty straightforwardly “Stay as long as you can and when you can’t get air, close your mouth and swim out.”  It’s not a competition for who can go without air the longest.

They do much worse than this both in challenges and outside of them that for me, this one doesn’t even rank.  This season alone, Matt fell at least twelve feet on a giant rock and poor Bruce slammed his head into a wooden beam at full speed.  Both of those could’ve been life threatening.   Then there’s the crazy shit they have them doing (like moving an Indiana Jones size boulder) in sweltering heat that most of them are not used to.  

Like I said, there are variables that could prevent you from executing that straightforward plan. 

And yes, there are other challenges that carry with them risks of serious injury or death. That doesn't take away from the notion that the breathing while mostly submerged challenge is not the same thing as stay on this peg as long as you can. It's not. 

There is a further difference between the stay-submerged challenge and the sort of ones you mention in this post. Getting injured in the ones you are talking about in the post can certainly happen, but it's not an inherent part of the challenge. The submerge challenge is playing on psychological fears and the possibility of not being able to breathe not just as a bug but as a feature.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is a further difference between the stay-submerged challenge and the sort of ones you mention in this post. Getting injured in the ones you are talking about in the post can certainly happen, but it's not an inherent part of the challenge. The submerge challenge is playing on psychological fears and the possibility of not being able to breathe not just as a bug but as a feature.

And they don't even try to hide that the psychological fear is an inherent part of the challenge, even a huge part of why they keep using it. Jeff blathers on and on about how they have to fight the urge to freak out while the challenge is going on and comments on their twitching and shaking and so on. Maybe all that is appealing to some viewers, but others find it unnecessary and uncomfortable. Even if you don't mind watching it, I don't see the reasoning behind downplaying it as no different from standing on a peg a couple feet off the ground (or comparing it to a guy climbing up a huge rock for no good reason other than showing off).

[SnapHappy]

Soooo tired of Carolyn's schtick.  MORE SCREAMING.  The whole emotional crisis every.damn.minute is just exhausting. 

And could she spend MORE time next episode picking her teeth?  Please?  

Hate her.  Absolute & total.  Before she was just annoying.  Now she's ridiculous and stupid. 

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

I kind of loved the idea of Carolyn pulling out that idol at FTC and saying “Hey look what I never needed.” 

Didn't work for Romeo. And I don't think it would have for Carolyn. She already is looked at by everyone as stupid and led by Yam Yam so I think revealing she found the idol at the end wouldn't have given her enough time to try to change that narrative. 

[eel21788]

20 hours ago, bunnyface said:

  I was really hoping after last season they would consider the drowning challenge broken and not do it again.

They just moved it to deeper water.

[seacliffsal]

As far as the discussion about the water challenge versus other types of challenges-IMO none of these challenges are new and if people don't want to participant in these types of challenges then they may want to apply to another show.  I know that might sound cold, but most of these challenges have been around for years.  It's another element like potentially not having much food, the strong storms that we have seen throughout the years, etc.  As it is, we get a lot of run through these obstacles and them complete a puzzle type of challenge so at least it's a different challenge.  Just my two cents worth.

[choclatechip45]

I'm just happy Danny was voted out!

[SnapHappy]

I'm thinking Danny spent a long time in front of his mirror at home practicing the memorable and oh-so-tough one-liners he'd belt out at the end of all his taking heads.  

And the Robert DiNiro thing was ridiculous.  Jeff just let him keep going on & on & on.  Idiot.

[violet and green]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But the fact that she was willing to write down Lauren's name shows she was willing to do exactly what Danny told her to do (split votes between Lauren and Heidi).

I think it was more thinking of putting an extra name out there in case others didn't vote as she thought (if she wasn't definitely playing the idol), and also to cover if it was a three-three split vote for Carson and Danny (and she was playing the idol for Carson) and there was another idol in play by Danny, then leaving her and Yam Yam vulnerable. She was doing the maths and thinking of her options, and trying to figure a way to cover Carson, herself, and Yam Yam, and not lose her idol in the process, and then landed back on her original plan with the idol as insurance things didn't go as Ratu said they would.

[HurricaneVal]

17 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

Jeff just let him keep going on & on & on. 

Jeff just standing there, frozen, cracked me the hell up.  I suspect Jeff was just standing there, poised to snuff the torch, and when Danny started going on and on with his really awful De Niro impression, he may have had some concerns over Danny's mental health and was afraid to move because he thought he might become a target.  He was probably inwardly screaming "SECURITY!!!!!  SECURITY!!!!!  REPORT TO THE TORCH SNUFFING STAT!!!!!!"  Or he was getting orders in his ear bug to hold still, and they'll edit all that out in post production and seamlessly splice the footage.  But it ended up being funnier to allow Danny to embarrass himself, so they left it all in.  Aaaaaaaawkwaaaaaaaard.......

[Tango64]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

“The submerge challenge is playing on psychological fears and the possibility of not being able to breathe not just as a bug but as a feature.”

Yeah, that’s what makes it a good challenge. Nobody is forcing them to do this. Even in the moment, they could say, “Nah, Jeff, ain’t doing this.”

Edited May 12, 2023 by Tango64

[ArtFossil]

I don’t really care who wins this season, having long ago gotten used to bitter, bitter disappointment. 

But I love Carolyn. She’s so authentic and full of life and her instincts are spot on. I find her both entertaining and inspirational. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Tango64 said:

“The submerge challenge is playing on psychological fears and the possibility of not being able to breathe not just as a bug but as a feature.”

Yeah, that’s what makes it a good challenge. Nobody is forcing them to do this. Even in the moment, they could say, “Nah, Jeff, ain’t doing this.”

I’m a swimmer and feel at home in the water and would have no trouble with this challenge. I suspect most swimmers would find it manageable. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

As far as the discussion about the water challenge versus other types of challenges-IMO none of these challenges are new and if people don't want to participant in these types of challenges then they may want to apply to another show.  I know that might sound cold, but most of these challenges have been around for years.  It's another element like potentially not having much food, the strong storms that we have seen throughout the years, etc.  As it is, we get a lot of run through these obstacles and them complete a puzzle type of challenge so at least it's a different challenge.  Just my two cents worth.

I get that "It's part of the game" and all that. I just wish it weren't.

I think the worst case scenario of someone getting hurt is bound to happen if they keep running it. And in the meantime, I think it is unfair to the players. Yes, contestants should know by know that there is a chance of this particular challenge being run. But it's probably easy to say for some people no big deal when you are watching from home. For at least some, they probably don't appreciate the situation fully until they are in it. And of course, even consenting to the risk doesn't mean that it's good to have people experience the risk.

People's mileage will vary, but as a viewer, I don't find the "I can hold my breath a long time!" challenge to be enjoyable and wish they would get rid of it. 

[Sandiscot]

At the end of the water challenge, when Yam Yam was floating absolutely still, I was worried that he had actually lost consciousness. Right at that moment, Danny jumped into the water. I think his fireman instinct kicked in and he may have thought the same thing. 

[Skooma]

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I really don't know why it took Carolyn so long to vote, or why she initially put down Lauren's name. It seems like she gets extra mileage out of the voting booth every week. The editors have been highlighting her from day 1, scene 1. She is either the most obviously telegraphed winner in the history of the show, or simply such a production favorite she's sure to be invited back again and again

Well she has become a major fan favorite.  But for the voting booth yeah what violet and green said below.

6 hours ago, violet and green said:

I think it was more thinking of putting an extra name out there in case others didn't vote as she thought (if she wasn't definitely playing the idol), and also to cover if it was a three-three split vote for Carson and Danny (and she was playing the idol for Carson) and there was another idol in play by Danny, then leaving her and Yam Yam vulnerable. She was doing the maths and thinking of her options, and trying to figure a way to cover Carson, herself, and Yam Yam, and not lose her idol in the process, and then landed back on her original plan with the idol as insurance things didn't go as Ratu said they would.

Yeah very well explained!  She couldn't just assume everybody was going to vote the way they said they would.  Like she said something along the lines to Danny about it being the fake plan or the real plan she knew better to trust anybody or anything when she got in that booth.  It wasn't some stunt to gain camera time.

I liked Danny doing his impression.  Doesn't matter if anyone thought it was good, bad or ugly it was a lot more fun than just standing there silently getting snuffed.  Probst was shocked he got interrupted and upstaged there at first which I loved.  Or not explaining in the last bit they had learned lessons for a lifetime yadda yadda yadda stuff but one last funny impression.  I bet most people have fun doing impression if only alone in the shower.  Kudos for Danny not giving a damn what people might think but having some fun at the end instead of the bittercakes takes. 

[gingerella]

17 hours ago, buttered toast said:

When Carolyn offered an observation and aired her frustration with Danny at Tribal Council, Probst responded that maybe she needs to get more sleep.  One step away from asking, "Are you on your period?" 

I wanted to smack him.

Probst is an ass, but hey! He's totally woke because he no longer says 'Guys'...🙄 FTR, every time he now says 'Come on in!' we say 'guys!' Rhat remark to Carolyn was obnoxious.

[Skooma]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:39 AM, gingerella said:

Probst is an ass, but hey! He's totally woke because he no longer says 'Guys'...🙄 FTR, every time he now says 'Come on in!' we say 'guys!' Rhat remark to Carolyn was obnoxious.

Why?  She said she hadn't gotten any sleep and was getting more and more paranoid.  He was just replying to that basically.

And I always have called both men and women "guys."  And I always will.  Wish Probst would go back to that again.  Nothing wrong with calling both sexes guys imo.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Skooma

[Carey]

Yeah, TBH, I never had a problem with the "guys" thing either.  I think saying, "Come on in everyone!" would have made for a better change.  BTW, I wonder when they even dropped it?  I think it might have been soon after Sarah from the original BBB "became Lacina" to which, while she was on point with Probst calling some dudes by their last names & not the women, I don't think the sample size was that significant.  Sarah, IMO, did earn that honor for the last name thing.

As for Jeff vs Carolyn, I guess I didn't react to it at all because, for me, it was Jeff being Jeff.  I can see how it wasn't cool for Probst there, but I'd put it as a reaction to an action, or in this case, as mentioned, a response (from Peachy) to a comment (made by Wiger)

[buttered toast]

Carolyn never said that a lack of sleep was making her paranoid or bitchy.  She said that she stays up at night, working angles and running strategic scenarios in her mind.  Probst would applaud a guy for that kind of dedication to the game.   But he "suggests" to Carolyn that getting more sleep might improve her attitude. 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Carey said:

Yeah, TBH, I never had a problem with the "guys" thing either.  I think saying, "Come on in everyone!" would have made for a better change.  BTW, I wonder when they even dropped it?  I think it might have been soon after Sarah from the original BBB "became Lacina" to which, while she was on point with Probst calling some dudes by their last names & not the women, I don't think the sample size was that significant.  Sarah, IMO, did earn that honor for the last name thing.

It was in Season 41 (the first post-COVID season). Jeff made a big deal of asking the contestants if anyone was offended by him saying "guys", and at first they said no, but then at the next challenge someone said that after some thought, they felt that not saying "guys" would be preferred. I don't think it had anything to do with Sarah being called by her last name, but more of a general (clumsy imo) attempt at inclusiveness.

[Chicago Redshirt]

29 minutes ago, buttered toast said:

Carolyn never said that a lack of sleep was making her paranoid or bitchy.  She said that she stays up at night, working angles and running strategic scenarios in her mind.  Probst would applaud a guy for that kind of dedication to the game.   But he "suggests" to Carolyn that getting more sleep might improve her attitude. 

 

IIRC, Carolyn said she doesn't/can't sleep, not merely that she works late into the night. 

The effects of sleep deprivation are pretty well-known at this point and they hit all genders: irritability, loss of ability to process information, moodiness.

I will take Peachy to task for being a pseudo-woke patronizing sexist all day every day when he deserves it. But I don't think there was anything of that in this comment. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

43 minutes ago, buttered toast said:

Carolyn never said that a lack of sleep was making her paranoid or bitchy.  She said that she stays up at night, working angles and running strategic scenarios in her mind.  Probst would applaud a guy for that kind of dedication to the game.   But he "suggests" to Carolyn that getting more sleep might improve her attitude. 

 

IIRC, Carolyn said she doesn't/can't sleep, not merely that she works late into the night. 

The effects of sleep deprivation are pretty well-known at this point and they hit all genders: irritability, loss of ability to process information, moodiness.

I will take Peachy to task for being a pseudo-woke patronizing sexist all day every day when he deserves it. But I don't think there was anything of that in this comment. 

I watched it again, and Carolyn does just say that she doesn't sleep as part of constantly going over scenarios - it was a follow-up to Yam Yam basically saying the same thing, though he phrased it as the constant thinking being exhausting. So no, she didn't literally say a lack of sleep was making her paranoid or bitchy, but the tenor of the conversation was about how always thinking about gameplay is draining.

Then, after some disagreements/misunderstandings between Carolyn/Danny and Carolyn/Lauren, things got testy with all three of them, leading to Carolyn's Stare of Irritation that we've seen before. Jeff asked her if she was annoyed, she said yes, and he said "if you get some sleep, you'll feel better!" in a friendly tone...CLEARLY just following up on her earlier comment about not sleeping.

I understand (and agree with) why Jeff gets little to no grace with people in this department, and if he had made the "get some sleep" comment out of nowhere I'd be with them...but to me, this was just him attempting to lighten the mood by making a call-back. Didn't work, of course, because then she got annoyed with him 😆

[Chicago Redshirt]

An aside: other than the designated sit-outs (i.e. when there are uneven numbers or when Jeff tempts people not to compete in a challenge for food or other rewards), have there been times when players are like "Nope, I'm just not doing this particular challenge?" I can't remember any such instances, although my recall of Survivor is far from encyclopedic. I don't even remember more than a time or two when people clearly or likely were throwing challenges.

[Vikitty]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

An aside: other than the designated sit-outs (i.e. when there are uneven numbers or when Jeff tempts people not to compete in a challenge for food or other rewards), have there been times when players are like "Nope, I'm just not doing this particular challenge?" I can't remember any such instances, although my recall of Survivor is far from encyclopedic. I don't even remember more than a time or two when people clearly or likely were throwing challenges.

I believe in Caramoan, Philip sat out of a water challenge due to a traumatizing incident as a child.

Edit: According to Wikipedia, it was actually the episode he was eliminated.

"Before the second heat was to be run, Phillip said that he was opting out of the challenge due to the underwater stage of the challenge reminding him of a childhood incident."

Edited May 12, 2023 by Valerie

[princelina]

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

An aside: other than the designated sit-outs (i.e. when there are uneven numbers or when Jeff tempts people not to compete in a challenge for food or other rewards), have there been times when players are like "Nope, I'm just not doing this particular challenge?" I can't remember any such instances, although my recall of Survivor is far from encyclopedic. I don't even remember more than a time or two when people clearly or likely were throwing challenges.

I believe Kimmie the vegetarian refused to eat some gross thing in the food challenge.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It’s unpleasant for sure- but well-supervised and completely voluntary.  No different than “Stand on these pegs until your feet feel like they’re about to burst.”

There's no inherent psychological fear of standing on a peg. Fear of drowning, on the other hand, is hard-wired into our brains. Trying desperately to breathe while water is pouring over your face is part of a known method of torture. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. That's why they do it!  Saying players can opt out or just quit doesn't make it OK. Otherwise where do they draw the line?

Quote

Soooo tired of Carolyn's schtick.  MORE SCREAMING.  The whole emotional crisis every.damn.minute is just exhausting. 

I don't hate Carolyn but I'm really baffled by her edit. Every time she goes into the voting booth it's a production. Whether she has to stand there and comment on the decorations or take nine hours deciding how to vote while she counts on her fingers. She gets so much extra screen time in there it's astounding. If she wins, she will be the most obviously telegraphed winner in the history of this show. It's been The Carolyn Show since Episode 1, Scene 1.

[millennium]

I'd like Carolyn to win but I really wouldn't mind if it's anybody else.   Anybody but Yam Yam, that is.

[SummerDreams]

From the people remaining, Carolyn has taken the favorite edit, Yam Yam the fun person edit, Lauren, Jaimie and Heidi have not been shown doing anything particular as strategy, and only Carson has been shown to be strategic, smart, manipulate relationships etc. So I think Carson is the winner.

[blackwing]

I didn't mind Danny, I thought it was good of him to recognise that Carson was a threat.  He couldn't have known that Carolyn had an idol.  But even if she hadn't played it, it wasn't needed.  I don't understand why Lauren and Jamie voted for Heidi.  They were in a group of 4 against the Tika 3.  Do they think being the bottom two out of 5 is better than being on equal footing with Danny/Heidi in a 4 person alliance?

On 5/10/2023 at 8:08 PM, Lantern7 said:

Interesting . . . if Carolyn wins, her clinching moment wouldn’t be bailing out Carson, who would’ve been safe if she stood pat. It would be from changing her vote to Danny. As dopey as her agonizing looked, she might have made the winning move.

It wouldn't have mattered.  If she had voted for Lauren, then the votes would be 2 Danny, 2 Heidi, 1 Lauren.  There's a re-vote where people can only vote for Danny or Heidi and Danny and Heidi can't vote.  The Tika 3 would vote for Danny.  It wouldn't matter who Jamie and Lauren voted for.  Either way, Danny is gone.

On 5/12/2023 at 5:06 AM, Skooma said:

And I always have called both men and women "guys."  And I always will.  Wish Probst would go back to that again.  Nothing wrong with calling both sexes guys imo.

Yep but it offended Rickard, or it didn't really offend him but he wanted his "look at me" moment on the show.  My daughter and I still make fun of him when we hear "come on in".  That and "I just wanted to taste the papaya".

[phlebas]

I'm fine with them losing the drowning challenge, but I wish they would bring back the one where everyone is blindfolded and being directed through a field filled with obstacles set at roughly sex-organ-height.  Every time, you could count on at least one dudebro lumber into it so fast, the ghosts of his ancestors moan.  (To quote Dennis Miller, "If I ever hit anything that hard with my d**k, I'm going to spot-weld to it.")

I think maybe I don't watch this show because of my massive maturity level.

[ljenkins782]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:23 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The difference is that there is no possibility of dying or experiencing injuries beyond blistering from standing on the peg, and there is no psychological aspect to it. It's strictly pain tolerance. Once you can't take it any more, you get off, and the pain lessens and eventually goes away. There's no external factors that affect that decision to step off the peg.

With the water thing, there are a bunch of risks. Water can still get in your mouth and nose and prevent your breathing properly, you can hit your head against the grate and get concussed, you can panic enough and make a mistake that cost you your health. Those (and other) risks may be minimal because I assume that off screen there are people who are going to be able to grab contestants and get them air if needed and perform other life-saving measures. But those risks still exist.

No, the standing on pegs has caused lifelong injuries, people have experienced nerve damage that ends up being permanent. To my knowledge, no one has ever been injured in this particular water challenge, but concussions, various joint and ligament injuries, and nerve damage have occurred regularly in the land-based challenges. I guess I'm not understanding the outrage over this particular challenge, especially when it hasn't actually proven to be an issue in 40 something seasons. The million dollar prize is always that "external factor" that affects their decisions in any immunity challenge

Quote

 

An aside: other than the designated sit-outs (i.e. when there are uneven numbers or when Jeff tempts people not to compete in a challenge for food or other rewards), have there been times when players are like "Nope, I'm just not doing this particular challenge?" I can't remember any such instances, although my recall of Survivor is far from encyclopedic. I don't even remember more than a time or two when people clearly or likely were throwing challenges.

Quote

I believe Kimmie the vegetarian refused to eat some gross thing in the food challenge.

 

Yeah, I know individuals have occasionally refused to participate in a round of something, but has there ever been something like a heights challenge that someone refused to do? This has happened multiple times on shows like the The Challenge, some people just flat out refuse to do anything involving heights, but I don't recall too much of that in Survivor.

Quote

 

I'm thinking Danny spent a long time in front of his mirror at home practicing the memorable and oh-so-tough one-liners he'd belt out at the end of all his taking heads.  

And the Robert DiNiro thing was ridiculous.  Jeff just let him keep going on & on & on.  Idiot.

 

Oh, the prolonged secondhand embarrassment, I was dying for it to end. I don't know if he even has the sense to be embarrassed when he watches it back, but he should be.

I'm so glad they got him out, I was afraid it would be one of those things where someone keeps ruining the plan and targeting some other perceived threat and I'd have to watch Danny strut around another 3 weeks. 

Carolyn may have blown her kooky cover by showing that she is capable of finding an idol and keeping that entirely secret. It still amazes me that her original tribe didn't seem to even consider that she could possibly have it. And if everyone sees Frannie firmly in her corner, Frannie has a built-in +1 vote in her Ponderosa BF plus she could rally the troops, that makes Carolyn a threat at FTC in a way that no one may have regarded her as before this. 

So either the Tikas pick off Lauren or Heidi next, but Heidi still has her idol, right? She's gotta be at the point where she has to play it or risk going home with it in her pocket. Or some kind of new alliance forms and tries to take out Carson or Carolyn, this could be an interesting ride to the end.

 

 

[blackwing]

This episode didn't have a reward challenge.  Because of that, I thought the first portion of this episode was incredibly boring.  Endless talking and crying about the previous vote.  So boring.

I know the current jury members aren't going to be privy to any footage of Carolyn sobbing and anguishing about being left out of the vote.  But I would think anybody that joins the jury from Danny forward will know and possibly share with the previous jury members.  I see a lot of comments about Carolyn being a badass after this episode.  Yet I am not sure if a Survivor winner has ever had a full-on hysterical sobbing fit about being left out of a vote.  Winners don't cry about moves others make in the game.  Winners adapt and plan on how to make sure their moves are better.

I wouldn't vote for Carolyn as a winner because of that.  It seems to me that right now, the most deserving winners at this point in the game are Carson or Yam Yam.  Carolyn is flighty and has mostly ridden coattails.  Jamie is a joke who is a legend in her own mind.  Lauren is a non-entity.  Heidi found an idol (that everyone knows about) but so far hasn't seemed to make any significant moves besides voting against her #1 ally in the previous vote.

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

No, the standing on pegs has caused lifelong injuries, people have experienced nerve damage that ends up being permanent. To my knowledge, no one has ever been injured in this particular water challenge, but concussions, various joint and ligament injuries, and nerve damage have occurred regularly in the land-based challenges. I guess I'm not understanding the outrage over this particular challenge, especially when it hasn't actually proven to be an issue in 40 something seasons. The million dollar prize is always that "external factor" that affects their decisions in any immunity challenge.

I agree.  I don't understand the outrage either.  Survivor is a choice.  Participating in an immunity challenge is a choice.  It's not like they are locked onto the grates and are actually risking death because they can't escape.  If they can't breathe, then they give up and exit the challenge.  To me, it's the same as any other immunity challenge that is an endurance challenge.  Too weak, too cold, too hot, too distracted, too tired?  Step down and you don't have to endure anymore.

Also, I could have sworn that in a previous version of this challenge (maybe even last season), that we saw divers in the water.  The challenge is very closely monitored, I'm sure they aren't going to let anyone actually die.

[SummerDreams]

21 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Heidi found an idol (that everyone knows about)

In fact nobody knows about Heidi's idol.

[blackwing]

10 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

In fact nobody knows about Heidi's idol.

Oh, maybe I misinterpreted.  Frannie for sure knew Heidi found it, she found it right in front of her. This was the one where everyone had to find random keys hidden in the jungle and hope it unlocked the cage.  I thought after Heidi's key unlocked the cage, that someone, maybe Frannie, told everyone that "Heidi found it" so everyone stopped looking.  If people didn't know Heidi had found it, wouldn't more people have kept hunting?  

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Oh, maybe I misinterpreted.  Frannie for sure knew Heidi found it, she found it right in front of her. This was the one where everyone had to find random keys hidden in the jungle and hope it unlocked the cage.  I thought after Heidi's key unlocked the cage, that someone, maybe Frannie, told everyone that "Heidi found it" so everyone stopped looking.  If people didn't know Heidi had found it, wouldn't more people have kept hunting?  

That wasn't the idol; that was the "Control a Vote" advantage, which they hid in the birdcage like the idols had been previously. But by that point all the idols had been found and removed from the birdcages. One of those birdcage idols, found by Danny, was played by him and re-hidden in the woods in the usual way. This is the idol Heidi found, which no one knows she has. She already used the Control a Vote advantage.

[blackwing]

3 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

That wasn't the idol; that was the "Control a Vote" advantage, which they hid in the birdcage like the idols had been previously. But by that point all the idols had been found and removed from the birdcages. One of those birdcage idols, found by Danny, was played by him and re-hidden in the woods in the usual way. This is the idol Heidi found, which no one knows she has. She already used the Control a Vote advantage.

Ah, I got it now.  Thanks for the explanation, it is coming back to me now.  If there weren't so many idols and advantages and whatnots, they wouldn't be so hard to keep track of! 

It has only just occurred to me now that we don't have the three-way "say the stupid silly phrase" idols from the past two seasons.  So at least we don't have those this season.

[Nashville]

On 5/10/2023 at 10:57 PM, Drogo said:

The grates for this challenge are pretty small, they’re free to leave anytime and swimming out is a quick trip.  
 

I have zero problems with this challenge, so long as the above is true - BUT…

On 5/10/2023 at 10:57 PM, Drogo said:

I never like when they weave their legs through, though.  

…a contestant going out of their way do deliberately introduce an underwater entanglement hazard has to be one of the stupidest things you can do on this planet.

Look, I get it: we aren’t watching the comp live, the broadcast is the result of countless tedious hours in editing, there’s no way TPTB would broadcast an actual drowning death, yadda yadda.  In both scuba diving and rock climbing, though, I have seen multiple instances where a single factor - a slipped grip or foothold on a rock face, a lost regulator, a silt blackout, etc. - spiked a sudden and severe upswell of panic which took participants from sanguine to psychotic in under a second.

The vast majority of human responses are learned vs. instinctual, but human beings are hardwired for severe visceral reaction to stimuli which (directly or indirectly) may represent a threat to self-preservation - fear of loud noises and of falling are chief among these, but suffocation is pretty damn high up on that list as well - and it is a stone cold Steve Austin fact that when one of these instinctual hot buttons gets pressed, rational thought can pack its bags and take off to Cabo for the weekend in half a second.  Panic can erase rational thought in the blink of an eye, which is where you get the stories of somebody drowning in two feet of water because they didn’t realize they could survive simply by standing up - or drowning in under 30 seconds because their ankle got hung in a tree fork or angle iron, and they freaked out before realizing how to free themselves from a fundamentally simple entanglement.

So while the fact we’re watching the comp on the broadcast does give a pretty strong indication nobody died in the course of filming this episode, please don’t assume the shallowness of the comp means it is absolutely risk-free.  😉

[Skooma]

3 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

No, the standing on pegs has caused lifelong injuries, people have experienced nerve damage that ends up being permanent. To my knowledge, no one has ever been injured in this particular water challenge, but concussions, various joint and ligament injuries, and nerve damage have occurred regularly in the land-based challenges. I guess I'm not understanding the outrage over this particular challenge, especially when it hasn't actually proven to be an issue in 40 something seasons. The million dollar prize is always that "external factor" that affects their decisions in any immunity challenge

I agree totally.  The water challenge is actually one of the safest physical challenges Survivor has ever used.  You can't fall, have nerve damage or even drown since either you or one of the safety swimmers can allow exit in 2 seconds flat.

I can't even swim other than doggy paddle and float and I'd be fine with this challenge but not ones with heights (vertigo) or endless pain (the tons of balance challenges that can indeed leave permanent injuries). 

But I have no problem with these types on Survivor either.  The show is called Survivor and not Baby Me.  This country is so over the top into risk aversion which is always one of the major warning signs of the decline of a country.  At least let us see some moxie on our TV shows like Survivor and The Amazing Race as the rest of us carefully bubble wrap ourselves into oblivion.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Skooma

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 hours ago, blackwing said:

This episode didn't have a reward challenge.  Because of that, I thought the first portion of this episode was incredibly boring.  Endless talking and crying about the previous vote.  So boring.

I know the current jury members aren't going to be privy to any footage of Carolyn sobbing and anguishing about being left out of the vote.  But I would think anybody that joins the jury from Danny forward will know and possibly share with the previous jury members.  I see a lot of comments about Carolyn being a badass after this episode.  Yet I am not sure if a Survivor winner has ever had a full-on hysterical sobbing fit about being left out of a vote.  Winners don't cry about moves others make in the game.  Winners adapt and plan on how to make sure their moves are better.

I wouldn't vote for Carolyn as a winner because of that.  It seems to me that right now, the most deserving winners at this point in the game are Carson or Yam Yam.  Carolyn is flighty and has mostly ridden coattails.  Jamie is a joke who is a legend in her own mind.  Lauren is a non-entity.  Heidi found an idol (that everyone knows about) but so far hasn't seemed to make any significant moves besides voting against her #1 ally in the previous vote.

I agree.  I don't understand the outrage either.  Survivor is a choice.  Participating in an immunity challenge is a choice.  It's not like they are locked onto the grates and are actually risking death because they can't escape.  If they can't breathe, then they give up and exit the challenge.  To me, it's the same as any other immunity challenge that is an endurance challenge.  Too weak, too cold, too hot, too distracted, too tired?  Step down and you don't have to endure anymore.

Also, I could have sworn that in a previous version of this challenge (maybe even last season), that we saw divers in the water.  The challenge is very closely monitored, I'm sure they aren't going to let anyone actually die.

The interesting thing about Survivor is that the players may have a very different view about who deserves a million than viewers at home. I'm not sure what Carson or Yam Yam have done so far that makes them so much a better choice to win than Carolyn other than not cry a lot. 

I feel like the issues I have with the water challenge have been spelled out sufficiently in previous posts (and "outrage" is a little strong), but one more time:

1. I understand that people choose to be on Survivor and to undertake any given challenge, and that they voluntarily accept the risks that come with those things. Their volunteering doesn't automatically justify them undergoing any and every challenge thrown at them. 

2. I understand that there are undoubtedly ample precautions taken against something going wrong. That doesn't mean that those precautions are infallible.

3. There are a number of variables inherent in the water challenge that mean there is still a risk of things going wrong and someone dying or getting seriously injured that are not present in most challenges. I disagree, for instance, that there is a realistic possibility of someone standing on the peg so long that they are at realistic risk of death or nerve damage. Even accepting for argument's sake that it's true that other challenges are also something that could cause inherently cause death or great injury when run as intended, that's an argument for not having those challenges either. Even if we were to agree that the risk of something going wrong was a mere .01 percent, to me that is too high. (And I'd guess the risks are higher than that, but I'm no math expert).

4. The water challenge plays on a built-in fear most of us have of drowning in a way that I find distasteful and that also increases the risk of panic, which increases the risk of injury. 

5. I do not enjoy watching the water challenge as a viewer or find it interesting or exciting. So given all the above, I wish they would scrap it. 

[phlebas]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

5. I do not enjoy watching the water challenge as a viewer or find it interesting or exciting. So given all the above, I wish they would scrap it. 

Personally, I can take it or leave it.  But whether it's this challenge or something else, I'm begging for an alternative to some sort of obstacle course that ends in a puzzle.

[ljenkins782]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I feel like the issues I have with the water challenge have been spelled out sufficiently in previous posts (and "outrage" is a little strong), but one more time:

1. I understand that people choose to be on Survivor and to undertake any given challenge, and that they voluntarily accept the risks that come with those things. Their volunteering doesn't automatically justify them undergoing any and every challenge thrown at them. 

2. I understand that there are undoubtedly ample precautions taken against something going wrong. That doesn't mean that those precautions are infallible.

3. There are a number of variables inherent in the water challenge that mean there is still a risk of things going wrong and someone dying or getting seriously injured that are not present in most challenges. I disagree, for instance, that there is a realistic possibility of someone standing on the peg so long that they are at realistic risk of death or nerve damage. Even accepting for argument's sake that it's true that other challenges are also something that could cause inherently cause death or great injury when run as intended, that's an argument for not having those challenges either. Even if we were to agree that the risk of something going wrong was a mere .01 percent, to me that is too high. (And I'd guess the risks are higher than that, but I'm no math expert).

4. The water challenge plays on a built-in fear most of us have of drowning in a way that I find distasteful and that also increases the risk of panic, which increases the risk of injury. 

5. I do not enjoy watching the water challenge as a viewer or find it interesting or exciting. So given all the above, I wish they would scrap it. 

You can't disagree with it though, it's actually happened. I think it was Ian from Palau who suffered permanent nerve damage from standing on some kind of structure for 12 hours and there have been other stories from former players. Conversely, the focus on the hypothetical dangers of this water challenge despite no evidence that any issues have ever occurred seems odd. All challenges have some inherent risk, but this challenge has even more safety protocols in place than most with the divers and medics all around them.

Not everyone has an inherent fear of drowning and if this is one person's deep-seated personal fear, that doesn't automatically make the challenge itself more dangerous, it just makes it more upsetting for that person. And for those at home who share that person's fear, apparently. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

You can't disagree with it though, it's actually happened. I think it was Ian from Palau who suffered permanent nerve damage from standing on some kind of structure for 12 hours and there have been other stories from former players. Conversely, the focus on the hypothetical dangers of this water challenge despite no evidence that any issues have ever occurred seems odd. All challenges have some inherent risk, but this challenge has even more safety protocols in place than most with the divers and medics all around them.

Not everyone has an inherent fear of drowning and if this is one person's deep-seated personal fear, that doesn't automatically make the challenge itself more dangerous, it just makes it more upsetting for that person. And for those at home who share that person's fear, apparently. 

For what it's worth, I didn't know about Ian and whoever else has claimed to have suffered nerve damage from doing Survivor challenges. And while I'll take them at their word, I'm certainly not obligated to. It could be the case that they aren't injured at all and are talking up their injuries to seem more impressive, or it could be the case that they do have nerve damage but it developed independent of the challenge,

In any case, it seems like the powers that be have learned from that and re-engineered the challenges so it would be improbable to do them so long that one has a realistic possibility of nerve damage. I have only watched some Survivor in the last 10 or so years, and I don't think any of those could be done for 10+ hours. 

With that, I think time to call horse on this part of the thread.