S02.E04: Old Wounds

[Cranberry]

Quote

Relive your youth by hitting the road! Take a roadtrip with your child! Go on vacation with a new friend! Hitchhike, if you must! Just make sure you pack a good playlist for the ride. Some recommendations from us: “Anything You Can Do,” “You Get What You Give,” “Instinct,” a famous composition by Frank Comstock, but absolutely not anything from “Starlight Express”.

Original air date: April 14, 2023 (streaming) / April 16, 2023 (Showtime)

[WaltersHair]

I found this episode to be interesting, but deeply depressing.

Javi being found alive just means one more mouth they can't feed. But he does appear healthy.

I thought way back in Season 1 that Tai was the antler queen. This episode seems to suggest she is the intersection between reason and mysticism.

[paulvdb]

Quoting this from last week's episode topic:

On 4/10/2023 at 7:15 PM, mmecorday said:

If there is a hatch somewhere in the wilderness, so help me God ...

So we get a hatch  but it was only in Lottie's imagination.

[Brn2bwild]

11 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Javi being found alive just means one more mouth they can't feed. But he does appear healthy.

Javi being alive could show the way to how they can survive through winter.  Though he seems feral or possessed, as if some supernatural force in the wilderness possessed him.

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

Javi being alive could show the way to how they can survive through winter.  Though he seems feral or possessed, as if some supernatural force in the wilderness possessed him.

Agreed. It felt like Javi, but not Javi, if that makes sense. He was looking around at everyone like he had no clue who they were.

Nat and Lottie both coming up empty on the hunt seemed like it was going to shift the group dynamic back to realism, and then poof! Javi shows up! Score one for Lottie, and Nat's gonna have a tough time explaining those bloody shorts....

I still think there's some underground structure, hence the warmth Van felt by the tree. Unless Javi is a ghost, he had to be hunkering down somewhere. 

Missy and Walter's dueling bedtime routines were cute. 

Coach Ben is not long for this world. The girls are turning on him and we're getting too many heartfelt flashbacks. I don't think he'll die next episode, but my guess is he'll go in the finale. 

I didn't expect to like Nat and Lisa together, but they have a lot in common. Depression, suicide attempts, awful mothers. 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by BitterApple

[Black Knight]

So I ended up waking up early to watch YJ, and then go back to sleep, despite my previous vow not to do so again. The resulting dream wasn't too bad this time though! Adult Misty had her own cult and all her cult followers had their hair cut, colored and styled to look exactly like hers.

Now that we have Javi back, I'm curious to see if that means the reddit theory that he was the one pooping in the pee bucket, and in this episode stealing bear meat, was right.

So we got confirmation that the white moose was real and not some sort of supernatural entity or even a figment of Natalie's imagination. I felt for her when it slipped away into the depths of the water. The choice to make the moose white now seems like a Moby Dick reference.

We learned some useful information in Lottie's therapy session. First, that she doesn't believe that her visions are real. Second, that she is on her meds. That scene is the first time I really saw the Lottie from the woods coming through into Adult Lottie, which is what I needed to make the casting fully work for me.

I burst out laughing when Lottie found the hatch, because the way it was done, with her first encountering the plane and Laura Lee's bear, meant I knew right away that the hatch wasn't real. There's no way that was an accident; the showrunners wanted to have that shot in the previews just so they could troll everyone and then be like, "Psych! This show is NOT Lost!"

I felt for Mari, who's been pretty much an antagonist up to now, when she asked Akilah the second time to help her look. I fear Akilah's new pet is coming to a bad end. And what about Steve, presumably alone in the house while Tai is off on her trip?

I was kind of impressed with Ben for just putting it out there and asking if they'd eat him. But it also put me in mind of Jackie's error last season. I had enjoyed her trying to smack some sense into the others, but all the same it was the wrong call and a failure to read the room.

[Brn2bwild]

I don't get Mari's extreme need for everyone to bow to Lottie.  The others who believe in Lottie seem more measured in how they react to her.  Even Lottie was like, "Girl, chill, leave me out of this." 

I liked that moment between Lottie and Nat when they "talked shit" after they both lost.  A faint echo of their time on the soccer team, which must feel like a million years ago.

Also didn't get the hatch and mall visions Lottie had; it could have been based on memories and longing, or it could be foreshadowing that there is a mine nearby? 

Yay, Adult Van makes her appearance!  From the way she appeared, it seems like the writers and producers initially intended to keep her a secret.  Maybe they realized there was no way to keep Lauren Ambrose's casting secret, so why not include her in the credits and pre-show promotions.  The only issue with that is I kept wondering every episode when Adult Van would appear.

The beginning credits seemed... different.  I think someone said Alanis Morisette sang them, but they sounded more warped than usual, maybe to reflect Taissa's current mindset.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Brn2bwild

[BitterApple]

32 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

 

I liked that moment between Lottie and Nat when they "talked shit" after they both lost.  A faint echo of their time on the soccer team, which must feel like a million years ago.

Also didn't get the hatch and mall visions Lottie had; it could have been based on memories and longing, or it could be foreshadowing that there is a mine nearby?

I thought that scene beautifully humanized both characters, especially Lottie. The show's focused so much on the woo-woo stuff that it's easy to forget she was once a teen girl who played soccer and stole shitty clothes from TJ Maxx. 

I'm hoping the writers elaborate on the visions, particularly why Laura Lee keeps showing up. Are they just manifestations of Lottie's mental illness? Or are there clues in them that Lottie isn't picking up on yet that will eventually lead to their rescue? Also, where does Tai and her Man With No Eyes fit into all of this? Was it a coincidence that the last spot she searched for the symbol led her and Van to Javi? 

I'm also curious about the change in the intro music. Is it supposed to represent a tonal shift in the plot? 

The white moose slipping out of Nat's grasp twice seemed a parallel to Captain Ahab and his elusive white whale. 

[Anela]

I enjoyed the episode, up until the end. If he survived because he was close by, and sneaking food, that's okay. He would have seen that they ate Jackie, and would be rightfully scared of all of them. I'm not interested in possession/some spooky reason. He was also told to run, when they chased them, and almost killed his brother. 

I don't understand why people think that Shauna would hunt and kill her daughter. the whole pit girl thing. I'm also not interested in the antler queen. 

Also, someone on reddit just mentioned what I was thinking during the episode: they ate Jackie when they still had bear meat.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Anela

[Black Knight]

32 minutes ago, Anela said:

Also, someone on reddit just mentioned what I was thinking during the episode: they ate Jackie when they still had bear meat.

However, because of the need to ration without having any idea of when the next food might come along, they were only eating tiny portions of the bear meat. We saw that when Shauna brought the tray in to them in the season premiere, and she ate Jackie's ear at the end of that episode.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

29 minutes ago, Anela said:

Also, someone on reddit just mentioned what I was thinking during the episode: they ate Jackie when they still had bear meat.

Who hasn't had frozen hamburger meat in their freezer at home, yet still gone out to a BBQ restaurant and munched on some ribs?

I hear what they're saying but if you have a freshly cooked meal in front of you vs. frozen meat that still needs to be butchered and cooked,  would you wait for it to cool down, freeze it and then go back to the bear meat and eat that first? I mean if you're going to eventually eat human meat anyway?

Plus it ignores their desperation and hunger in that situation. It was too hard to resist in the moment even though they still felt ashamed of it. So much so that they imagined they were eating something else.

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I don't get Mari's extreme need for everyone to bow to Lottie. 

I think it's her specific reaction to the hopelessness of the situation. She feels Lottie and her visions may be their only hope of survival. She needs everyone else to go along with it because otherwise it shatters her own hope.

Kudos to everyone who picked up on the White Whale (or moose) reference. I didn't even think of it though it makes so much sense. However, when Akilah put the mouse in her pocket, I did say "Put down the mouse, Lennie."

I felt for Nat when that moose sank into the water. I did wonder how it had been floating until then though. Oh, it was stuck in the ice, right? I didn't think of that.

I kind of hope Coach Ben leaves the camp and goes off to die on his own instead of being eaten. Might be too difficult on that crutch though.

How long has Javi been missing? He seemed warm, relatively clean and fed so he figured out how to survive somehow. They just noticed the bear meat missing so even if he stole that, it was only recently.

[Black Knight]

5 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I kind of hope Coach Ben leaves the camp and goes off to die on his own instead of being eaten. Might be too difficult on that crutch though.

They'd be able to track him easily in the snow. I assume that's how the search party found Lottie; they just followed her tracks.

But you do bring up an interesting point in that respect. In one of the real-life stories of exploration parties freezing to death near one of the poles, I remember an anecdote where one man just said something about going out to get something - an obvious lie - and going off to freeze to help boost the chances of survival for the others. I also vaguely remember something about it being a tradition in some ancient people's cultures that at times of extreme starvation the old people will go out to die of exposure. Ben may choose to go out, not to save his body from being eaten - there's really nothing he can do about that, unless he managed to get all the way to the gorge and throw himself off it, or to the lake and break his way through the ice and fall to the depths like the moose ended up doing - but so that he doesn't have to die around people he's kind of repulsed by/scared of now.

And if the group realizes he's gone out to die, and decides not to bring him back inside in time to save his life, that would represent a slipping down the ladder of what is ethical and moral. It would make a lot of sense as a middle step before they start actively murdering people in order to eat them.

[BitterApple]

59 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

How long has Javi been missing? He seemed warm, relatively clean and fed so he figured out how to survive somehow. They just noticed the bear meat missing so even if he stole that, it was only recently.

Javi was missing for two months. Some viewers have theorized he was hiding below the cabin or in some hidden crawl space, (thus explaining the missing lantern, and poo in the pee bucket), but I don't know. The girls are so edgy right now it's hard to believe they wouldn't have caught on to him lurking around. Like you said, Shauna only mentioned missing meat recently. If Javi was hiding in or around the cabin, food would've consistently been disappearing all along. I think he was definitely the one who took it, but he's been holed up somewhere else. 

[peachmangosteen]

If Javi has just been binding in the cabin for months and is the reason for a lot of the unexplained stuff like the poop, dripping, and kissing meat, I will roll. That’s funny lol. I’m glad he is alive because they were so obviously pointing that way that I would have been annoyed if those clues were nothing.

I didn’t expect for teen Lottie to be sort of pushed into this mystical stuff or for adult Lottie to be seemingly the only YJ to actually understand she needs therapy so that was a nice little surprise and made me a lot more interested in her than I was before. I have to say though, I am very suspicious of the therapist because that seemed like very bad advice she was giving Lottie.

Natalie continues to be my absolute favorite. 

This episode really solidified the fact that they will use the cards as the way of picking who they hunt and kill.

[Black Knight]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I have to say though, I am very suspicious of the therapist because that seemed like very bad advice she was giving Lottie.

I need to rewatch - the problem with waking up at 4am to watch is that I definitely miss stuff - but mostly what I remember her saying is that Lottie needs to ask herself why she's seeing these visions now. That part seemed reasonable enough, especially since it was reminiscent of Adult Shauna asking "Jackie" last season why she was there. Shauna knew this wasn't a real ghost, rather a manifestation of her subconscious.

And the other thing I remember the therapist saying to Lottie is that the more she tries to suppress, the stronger it bounces back. That's also in line with standard psychology. You have to acknowledge and confront things in order to lay them to rest. (Hmm, "confront and acknowledge" - was that said last night or am I thinking of another show I just watched?) Lottie is already on medication, so I can understand the therapist being reluctant to just up the dose and potentially overmedicate Lottie, when maybe what Lottie needs is to do some self-examination.

I think it's especially pertinent advice in that Lottie keeps seeing Laura Lee, who was the most important to her of anyone we've seen. It's reminiscent of Shauna seeing Jackie. It could be Laura Lee's actual spirit, or it could be that Lottie's subconscious has simply chosen Laura Lee like Shauna's has Jackie. That would make sense since Laura Lee had tremendous influence on Lottie just as Jackie had tremendous influence on Shauna.

[jsm1125]

Why has Natalie not yet left Lottie’s compound for good? Fear that Lisa will tell Lottie? Morbid curiosity? 

I couldn’t get a good look at Tai’s GPS/Google Maps. Where do we think Van lives exactly?

[Chaos Theory]

We get a not dead Javi and an adult Van.  All is good in the Yellowjackets universe.

The beginning of the cult of Lotti starts in the wilderness and we are seeing how certain people make every coincidences make it seem like Lotti is magic
 

Poor Callie. Yes she is the textbook Bitchy teenager trope but can you actually blame her?    I thought her conversation with Shauna  in the middle of nowhere was really well done.

Walter is kinda right. Misty being a Yellowjacket while traumatizing was 30 ne 25 years ago and probably the least interesting thing about her.   That crazy little psychopath.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaos Theory
Autocorrect hates me

[sistermagpie]

19 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I thought way back in Season 1 that Tai was the antler queen. This episode seems to suggest she is the intersection between reason and mysticism.

She's not really an intersection, though, because the two sides are walled off from each other. 

12 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Now that we have Javi back, I'm curious to see if that means the reddit theory that he was the one pooping in the pee bucket, and in this episode stealing bear meat, was right.

Seems like that just happened recently, didn't it? They haven't been dealing with a thief all along.

12 hours ago, Black Knight said:

So we got confirmation that the white moose was real and not some sort of supernatural entity or even a figment of Natalie's imagination. I felt for her when it slipped away into the depths of the water. The choice to make the moose white now seems like a Moby Dick reference.

Was it the same moose? 

9 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I don't get Mari's extreme need for everyone to bow to Lottie.  The others who believe in Lottie seem more measured in how they react to her.  Even Lottie was like, "Girl, chill, leave me out of this." 

Mari's always been into leaders, is maybe one reason. She sucked up to Jackie, then turned on her, went with Tai when Tai set off. If Lottie's the person she's got her faith in now, she needs that.

She's more sympathetic here, though. I've never hated her, but it does seem like she might be getting set up to be vulnerable and killed.

9 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Also didn't get the hatch and mall visions Lottie had; it could have been based on memories and longing, or it could be foreshadowing that there is a mine nearby? 

Seems like it since Javi's been somewhere and we've seen two places where the ground is warm enough to melt the snow.

9 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Yay, Adult Van makes her appearance!  From the way she appeared, it seems like the writers and producers initially intended to keep her a secret.  Maybe they realized there was no way to keep Lauren Ambrose's casting secret, so why not include her in the credits and pre-show promotions.  The only issue with that is I kept wondering every episode when Adult Van would appear.

I don't think it was too much of a secret even the way it was built up, since the way Tai covered her face in the mirror. Like, who else would she be going to see?

Weird how neither Shauna or Tai or Nat are even shown rejecting calls from Misty. I mean, she's a person they just got rid of a body with. They should always return her calls.

 

8 hours ago, Anela said:

I enjoyed the episode, up until the end. If he survived because he was close by, and sneaking food, that's okay. He would have seen that they ate Jackie, and would be rightfully scared of all of them. I'm not interested in possession/some spooky reason. He was also told to run, when they chased them, and almost killed his brother. 

They only ate Jackie recently, so he shouldn't have been scared off by that a month ago. And he didn't see them do anything to Travis, as far as we know.

8 hours ago, Anela said:

Also, someone on reddit just mentioned what I was thinking during the episode: they ate Jackie when they still had bear meat.

They didn't make a rational choice to eat Jackie. They woke up to the forest telling them dinner was ready with a lovely slow-roast waiting for them.

7 hours ago, Black Knight said:

But you do bring up an interesting point in that respect. In one of the real-life stories of exploration parties freezing to death near one of the poles, I remember an anecdote where one man just said something about going out to get something - an obvious lie - and going off to freeze to help boost the chances of survival for the others. I also vaguely remember something about it being a tradition in some ancient people's cultures that at times of extreme starvation the old people will go out to die of exposure. Ben may choose to go out, not to save his body from being eaten - there's really nothing he can do about that, unless he managed to get all the way to the gorge and throw himself off it, or to the lake and break his way through the ice and fall to the depths like the moose ended up doing - but so that he doesn't have to die around people he's kind of repulsed by/scared of now.

And if the group realizes he's gone out to die, and decides not to bring him back inside in time to save his life, that would represent a slipping down the ladder of what is ethical and moral. It would make a lot of sense as a middle step before they start actively murdering people in order to eat them.

Ben's had a flashback where we learned he already thought of the girls as vicious monsters. I don't think he plans to sacrifice himself for any of them. If anything he'd kill them to survive. Or would like to think he would. 

I really loved this ep. Even Lisa, who's been annoying to me so far, was not in this ep. (I hope she doesn't turn out to have any secret identity. I was genuinely worried about her saying something about being adopted and I hope she wasn't!) 

I liked the secrets bringing Shauna's family weirdly together--I assume it was the cop Callie was going to be meeting with.

Starlight Express. LOL.

Lottie tells the therapist her visions aren't real and she needs her meds...but ultimately it seems like she absolutely still believes in the wilderness gods still because she tried giving it blood. Presumably hoping it wasn't demanding that she murder someone from her cult?

Natalie spitting Gilly XIV out of her mouth was fantastic. And I really felt for her watching that moose go down. I also wonder if there's significance in the scene at the mall and what the girls were saying to Lottie. I am glad that Laura Lee is such a presence for Lottie. Kind of funny that when she imagines being with the team Laura Lee's there but Jackie isn't.

Edited April 15, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Anela]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

If Javi has just been binding in the cabin for months and is the reason for a lot of the unexplained stuff like the poop, dripping, and kissing meat, I will roll. That’s funny lol. I’m glad he is alive because they were so obviously pointing that way that I would have been annoyed if those clues were nothing.

I didn’t expect for teen Lottie to be sort of pushed into this mystical stuff or for adult Lottie to be seemingly the only YJ to actually understand she needs therapy so that was a nice little surprise and made me a lot more interested in her than I was before. I have to say though, I am very suspicious of the therapist because that seemed like very bad advice she was giving Lottie.

Natalie continues to be my absolute favorite. 

This episode really solidified the fact that they will use the cards as the way of picking who they hunt and kill.

I love Natalie (younger and older). I was not expecting her to spit out a fish.

With Javi, it just sets up the unnecessarily soapy stuff I mentioned in a previous thread, or the speculation thread. These kids are trying to survive in the wilderness, but they still have to throw things like this between them.

I need to watch again. It's my birthday, and I was just watching this, before getting ready to go out. I haven't been in the mood for it. The day got sort of messed up, but I visited an independent bookstore, in a Stars Hollow sort of town, and felt better. I'll try watching it again over the weekend. When Tai and Van were running, I thought they were running from a swarm of bees, which made no sense in the winter. The living room was really light, so I couldn't always see the screen properly. 

I liked Natalie and Lottie giving each other shit, when they both lost. I don't like the "Lottie won!" bit, because Tai and Van found Javi, but I can see how they would think it. Or want to. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, jsm1125 said:

Why has Natalie not yet left Lottie’s compound for good? Fear that Lisa will tell Lottie? Morbid curiosity? 

Maybe Nat feels safe there even if she doesn't want to admit it? From what we've seen she's something of a nomad. In and out of rehab, on and off with Travis, living out of motels. She talks crap about not being a joiner and expressing disdain for the cult's way of life, but I think she inherently craves stability. 

With regards to Van, Redditors are saying she's in Ohio. 

[Chaos Theory]

Ok it looks like it is ironically going to be Team Lotti vs Team Nat in the wilderness which adds depth to the current era storyline between the two in the fully formed Cult of Lotti and explains the question of why Nat stays to a certain extent.

Plus I think Nat is also staying fir her new friend Lisa.  The girl who she smuggled the fish for.   She has become her new Travis.  Someone to live for.  It’s not sexual.  I think Nat sees herself in the girl.  They have the same crappy childhood and the suicidal tendencies so Nat can relate.  So she wants to protect Lisa from the illusion of freedom that Lotti’s cult is portraying. 
 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[Black Knight]

39 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

With regards to Van, Redditors are saying she's in Ohio. 

That makes sense. I could see Tai had to go a far distance west, so I was figuring Pennsylvania. But Ohio's just a bit beyond that.

26 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Plus I think Nat is also staying fir her new friend Lisa.  The girl who she smuggled the fish for.   She has become her new Travis.  Someone to live for.  It’s not sexual.  I think Nat sees herself in the girl.  They have the same crappy childhood and the suicidal tendencies so Nat can relate.  So she wants to protect Lisa from the illusion of freedom that Lotti’s cult is portraying. 

That makes a lot of sense. Natalie said in the series premiere that when she left the woods, she lost her purpose. And then she found a mission last season, spurred by the postcard, which then led to her finding Travis's body and wanting to learn what happened to him. Now she needs something else to live for. Poor Natalie. Despite her exterior, she really had and has the best heart of them all except possibly Laura Lee. That's probably why she's had the overtly hardest time out of the woods of the main leads. Tai dissociated, Shauna went into sleepwalking mode (ironic that Tai sleepwalks physically but Shauna did so mentally), psychopathic Misty is untroubled. Natalie lacked the coping strategies of Tai and Shauna and unlike Misty has a conscience, so she turned to drugs and alcohol instead. More and more I can see why Tai was willing to pay for her most recent rehab even though it was like the third time Natalie had gone and there wasn't much reason to think this time would take.

[LoveIsJoy]

For some reason, I can’t recall the circumstances which caused Javier to go missing in the first place.  Can someone give me a quick recap?  Thanks.

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, LoveIsJoy said:

For some reason, I can’t recall the circumstances which caused Javier to go missing in the first place.  Can someone give me a quick recap?  Thanks.

When the girls ate the shrooms and went insane, Shauna told him to run and he did lol.

[tljgator]

On 4/14/2023 at 2:38 AM, BitterApple said:

Missy and Walter's dueling bedtime routines were cute. 

Anyone else think this looked like an homage to Pillow Talk?

On 4/14/2023 at 8:31 AM, Black Knight said:

I burst out laughing when Lottie found the hatch, because the way it was done, with her first encountering the plane and Laura Lee's bear, meant I knew right away that the hatch wasn't real. There's no way that was an accident; the showrunners wanted to have that shot in the previews just so they could troll everyone and then be like, "Psych! This show is NOT Lost!"

Me too, lol...I literally said, HA! out loud to no one. Only thing that would have made it better would have been "Make Your Own Kind of Music" playing on musak in the background of the mall.

23 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The white moose slipping out of Nat's grasp twice seemed a parallel to Captain Ahab and his elusive white whale. 

21 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

However, when Akilah put the mouse in her pocket, I did say "Put down the mouse, Lennie."

...so many little literary allusions in this one.

21 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I kind of hope Coach Ben leaves the camp and goes off to die on his own instead of being eaten. Might be too difficult on that crutch though.

Whether he goes out on his own or they chase him, he does say explicitly (don't remember if it was the this episode or the one before -- sorry, watched them together) that he doesn't do well in the snow/ice.

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Plus I think Nat is also staying fir her new friend Lisa.  The girl who she smuggled the fish for.   She has become her new Travis.  Someone to live for.  It’s not sexual.  I think Nat sees herself in the girl.  They have the same crappy childhood and the suicidal tendencies so Nat can relate.  So she wants to protect Lisa from the illusion of freedom that Lotti’s cult is portraying. 

Love this -- seems very on-point. We saw a lot of clinging to small points of protecting/caring for others from several of the adult YJs in this one and the last, not just Nat, but even Shauna, bringing the old stuffed animal to Callie after getting the van back.

21 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

He seemed warm, relatively clean and fed so he figured out how to survive somehow.

Someone mentioned, I think in the discussion of the prior episode, how run down and dirty the cabin and the girls suddenly look compared to prior episodes (in a horror movie kind of way), but I think it also made how clean and well-fed Javi looked jump out even more.

[Colorado David]

Good episode, if not a bit sad. I like how the writers are giving us 'yay' moments, then yanking the  rug out from under us (the moose).  Poor Nat, so happy then deflated. Nice job on the fish, I did not see that one coming.

Javi is way too clean, someone has been keeping him safe and warm in an underground bunker somewhere. The melted snow could be the spot where the hatch Javi used opened and shut (escaping warm air melted the snow, tho granted that is a fast melt.)  And he may be doped up, which is why he seemed so oblivious to everyone.

I feel bad for Lottie, this bloodletting thing is a real curse for her. I too liked the 'Lost' fakeout, havinng to go down into a hatch.  I wondered why the salesperson scene tho, does that have any relevance? I wonder if we'll see her again (and man she was tiny!)  The food fakeout was good tho, Lottie digging into the chinese take out box only to see there's nothing in it. I think we all called hallucination the second we saw the plane, if not seeing the teddy bear then.

Misty and Walter, oh their bickering makes me so happy, they have a fun chemistry. I guess if I was Misty I would distrusting as well. And what's wrong with Walter liking showtunes? I've liked showtunes and soundtracks since high school. Lol to Misty referring to the cult as the Purple People, I like it.

Dunno whats gonna happen with Ben, but these flashback memories have me worried he is getting seriously depressed. Did anyone catch the title of the black paperback he attempted to read? It looked like it had something nefarious on the cover, like a goathead.

Awww a mouse, cute. You know someone is going to kill it and Akilah is going to go mental.

Yay adult Van!!! I adore LA, so good in Servant and Six Feet Under.

 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

Dunno whats gonna happen with Ben, but these flashback memories have me worried he is getting seriously depressed. Did anyone catch the title of the black paperback he attempted to read? It looked like it had something nefarious on the cover, like a goathead.

 

It was The Magus--Misty was reading it early. I guess the John Fowles book? But there's another occult book of the same name and I've never been sure which one they're reading that was in the cabin. Both have relevence!

I loved the mall scene too. It's a really interesting contrast to Jackie's death scene. In her vision Laura Lee told her death wasn't bad and  everyone said they loved her and gave her hot chocolate. In Lottie's dream LL was demanding she stay alive and even the things other people said were about her survival instincts--she's chilly, get a coat, having no credit card wouldn't stop her.

Also a contrast to Ben's flashbacks. He's thinking about the life he didn't lead out of fear etc., having regrets. Lottie's is more focused on surviving. Though I think Ben, too, wants to survive to live the way he didn't before. It just seems important that Lottie's remembering stuff she's done to take care of herself.

[blixie]

Quote

I still think there's some underground structure, hence the warmth Van felt by the tree. Unless Javi is a ghost, he had to be hunkering down somewhere. 

I think it could be underground or it just could be another group entirely who have shelter, The Others if you will (and like I stopped with Lost so early y'all), Javi wasn't even dressed warmly, so he really kind of has to have found shelter/food. I also agree that he seemed confused like he didn't know any of them, like he was under a spell. 

I am bit confused Lottie seems to think her visions are linked to her time in the forest, but we had that flashback to her as child where she seemed to already have premonitions. Also interesting that she medicates herself but seems to encourage her followers to quit and that claims it numbs the pain. I mean I get that it helps her stay in control on both sides, but I suspect she herself would prefer the mental illness answer that cold be controlled v. mystical visions she can't.

I don't think the moose being real means it also wasn't supernatural. Like the lake would have been frozen for a long ass time, Natalie saw the moose like a day ago. I don't thing her moose = ice moose. 

Glad Shauna came clean, but also set a boundary with her brat of a daughter. It's her truth she'll share it with you when you show you can handle it Callie.

[jsm1125]

How has Tai, now elected as a Senator, going AWOL not ringing alarm bells for the media in the present day?

Edited April 15, 2023 by jsm1125

[WaltersHair]

On second watch

I freaking hate the change in the opening music. I usually watch to find changes in the sequence. Show, please go back to the original.

Nat gave Lottie her hunting coat for the challenge which also made it into the mall scene. I don't know if that has significance, but it's interesting. Everyone at the table looked good, even Misty.

Nat is in the cult, but is not part of the cult. Her resistance to The Color Purple is interesting.  It's also interesting that Lottie is medicated but her followers are not. If she isn't a doctor, she could be in some trouble if she's offering 'cures'. The FDA will come for you on that.

Moose weigh up to 1500 lbs. I'm not sure the girls could have pulled a waterlogged one out even in their prime.

I found and watched The Ice Storm to see baby Elijah and Christina. EW has one of those faces that literally doesn't change with age.

[Black Knight]

In the U.S. unless it is a special election to fill a seat that became vacant midway through term, it typically is weeks or even months before an elected politician actually starts their term of service, so I assume that’s what is going on in Tai’s case. She’ll be sworn in at the start of the new legislative term for the state senate.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, blixie said:

I think it could be underground or it just could be another group entirely who have shelter, The Others if you will (and like I stopped with Lost so early y'all), Javi wasn't even dressed warmly, so he really kind of has to have found shelter/food. I also agree that he seemed confused like he didn't know any of them, like he was under a spell. 

I can't believe there's other people. That just changes the entire plot and is kind of silly. It's like announcing they couldn't write the story they said they were writing.

7 hours ago, blixie said:

I don't think the moose being real means it also wasn't supernatural. Like the lake would have been frozen for a long ass time, Natalie saw the moose like a day ago. I don't thing her moose = ice moose. 

That's what I thought. Didn't seem possible the moose she saw walking around could be under inches of thick ice so soon.

 

[Anela]

I've read a few posts on reddit, but I'm just going to wait and see, and not speculate too much, because it does take any fun out of it for me (as I saw someone else comment over there).

I have been one of the people who thought that Tai had someone stalking her family, and killed their dog for the altar, leaving Tai to think that she did it, but Tai is sure that she's the one who did it in a fugue state.

[Bill1978]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It was The Magus--Misty was reading it early. I guess the John Fowles book?

Just went to the scene and paused and you are correct it is the John Fowles book.

[Dminches]

Does anyone like the modern day Tai storyline? Even modern day Shauna seems to be going nowhere and forced. Shauna killed someone and now it is going to turn into a police investigation? Nothing creative there.

Frankly, the only entertaining story line is bizarro Misty.

I do like all of what they are doing with the girls lost in the woods. Finding ways to survive, both physically and mentally has great challenges. 

 

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Dminches said:

Does anyone like the modern day Tai storyline? Even modern day Shauna seems to be going nowhere and forced. Shauna killed someone and now it is going to turn into a police investigation? Nothing creative there.

Frankly, the only entertaining story line is bizarro Misty.

I do like all of what they are doing with the girls lost in the woods. Finding ways to survive, both physically and mentally has great challenges. 

 

I would expect a police investigation. 

Tai was concerning her wife and child, throughout the first season, and refusing to get help, so I see this as her going to find the one person who didn't judge her, and tried to help her (that I've seen so far). It's our introduction to adult Van. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Anela

[blixie]

Quote

I can't believe there's other people. That just changes the entire plot and is kind of silly.

I don't see how it changes the plot? I would even wager some of the girls didn't die and didn't return. but stayed in the forest. If this show is really gonna go five seasons it's gonna need a bit more than girls eat each other in the forest I can totally see one season where they go back on purpose to face all this down. I'm still pretty convinced it's a spirit witches in some kind of Vancouver Bermuda Triangle but I think it's feasible there are a few in the flesh adherents out there with the girls, who have no interest in helping save them or return to them to civilization, unless they say join with them. That's why I don't think pit girl actually had to be a Yellowjacket. I can't and won't ague if it's silly, because I am happy to read this whole text as heavily genre, and already fantastical in so many ways I'm not sure why this is a step too far and indeed would tack more firmly into a more rational explanation for how those who came back did survive: they didn't actually do it alone or w/o resources, even if some of the resources in the winter was human flesh/sacrifice.

 

[peachmangosteen]

39 minutes ago, blixie said:

If this show is really gonna go five seasons it's gonna need a bit more than girls eat each other in the forest ...

Yea, I agree with this. There has to be something more because trying to squeeze 5 seasons out of what we already definitively know happens is not feasible.

[Dminches]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I would expect a police investigation. 

Tai was concerning her wife and child, throughout the first season, and refusing to get help, so I see this as her going to find the one person who didn't judge her, and tried to help her (that I've seen so far). It's our introduction to adult Van. 

I don’t think Tai’s wife was judging her.  She was just reacting to not only her bizarre behavior but also some of the disturbing stuff she saw. Van has also questioned Tai at times.  Whether that is judging or not I can’t say, but she definitely questioned how Tai was behaving.

Either way, I have no interest in that storyline.

 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, blixie said:

I don't see how it changes the plot? I would even wager some of the girls didn't die and didn't return. but stayed in the forest. If this show is really gonna go five seasons it's gonna need a bit more than girls eat each other in the forest I can totally see one season where they go back on purpose to face all this down.

Because right now it's about a group of girls who formed their own society while completely alone in the woods--just like Lord of the Flies. Civilized people devolving into more primitive-seeming people. That's what was presented to us from the start when we opened with them all alone going through a ritual they'd created. As Shauna said in this ep, they're ashamed of things they did. None of them have suggested the was anything going on with another hidden civilization they're keeping secret. It's all about the darkness within them. If they're not alone in terms of there not being any other people, they're no longer alone.

I don't know where the story's going, but if the creators have mapped out 5 seasons (with around 10 eps for each one) for where they're going I'm not yet worried that they're wrong and are going to need to start adding stuff to keep the plot going. Of course I'll accept whatever they do and hope I won't be disappointed by any of it, but given the way the pacing has happened so far I'm not seeing the need for Others.

 

31 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea, I agree with this. There has to be something more because trying to squeeze 5 seasons out of what we already definitively know happens is not feasible.

Doesn't seem unfeasible to me. In fact, it seems more like the opposite, where if we know what happened how can it turn out to be something so different? Of course I can't judge a story I haven't seen yet, but a story that comes out of not being able to squeeze 5 sesasons out of the original idea seems like it would play as exactly that and the show just went on too long, so why plan it for 5?

Edited April 16, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Brn2bwild]

4 hours ago, Dminches said:

Does anyone like the modern day Tai storyline? Even modern day Shauna seems to be going nowhere and forced. Shauna killed someone and now it is going to turn into a police investigation? Nothing creative there.

Frankly, the only entertaining story line is bizarro Misty.

I do like all of what they are doing with the girls lost in the woods. Finding ways to survive, both physically and mentally has great challenges. 

 

I like the Tai storyline because Adult Tai's behavior seems to be the most connected to Younger Tai.  Shauna's storyline bores me, but I'm guessing there will be some payoff soon.  I find Misty's storyline boring, too: it's fun to see her with Walter, but too many scenes are their banter and not a lot of plot progression.

[BingeyKohan]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Because right now it's about a group of girls who formed their own society while completely alone in the woods--just like Lord of the Flies. Civilized people devolving into more primitive-seeming people. That's what was presented to us from the start when we opened with them all alone going through a ritual they'd created. As Shauna said in this ep, they're ashamed of things they did. None of them have suggested the was anything going on with another hidden civilization they're keeping secret. It's all about the darkness within them. If they're not alone in terms of there not being any other people, they're no longer alone.

I don't know where the story's going, but if the creators have mapped out 5 seasons (with around 10 eps for each one) for where they're going I'm not yet worried that they're wrong and are going to need to start adding stuff to keep the plot going. Of course I'll accept whatever they do and hope I won't be disappointed by any of it, but given the way the pacing has happened so far I'm not seeing the need for Others.

 

Doesn't seem unfeasible to me. In fact, it seems more like the opposite, where if we know what happened how can it turn out to be something so different? Of course I can't judge a story I haven't seen yet, but a story that comes out of not being able to squeeze 5 sesasons out of the original idea seems like it would play as exactly that and the show just went on too long, so why plan it for 5?

Hard agree. They are not mandated to make 5 seasons - they’ve just said it’s a hypothetical possibility. I personally think around 3 might be ideal. I think one season, likely the final, will literally flip the dynamic where the girls are home (post rescue) in the past but in the present they’ve returned to the crash site to exorcise their demons once and for all. And for the record I mean internal demons not a cabal of additional forest dwellers!
 

[WaltersHair]

If there are other people out there with them, I'm out. Just my opinion, but that takes away the urgency, secrecy, and plausibility of what we've seen so far.

Never watched Lost, but it seems to be getting more time here than the actual series we're watching.

I also think they're likely on the east side of Canada, as that's were the French speaking variety are located. I worked in upper Maine near the border for a summer and met people who only spoke French.

And I'll reiterate that I hope they tone down the supernatural aspect. If adult Lottie says her visions aren't real, I'd say she came to terms with that possibility a long time ago. I can see how civilized teenagers could devolve into something they never expected to become and might only occur under the harshest of circumstances.

As always, YMMV.

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

 

If there are other people out there with them, I'm out.

 

Same! But - I don’t believe that’s going to happen even a little bit. I think we’re safe!

[snickers]

8 hours ago, blixie said:

I don't see how it changes the plot? I would even wager some of the girls didn't die and didn't return. but stayed in the forest. If this show is really gonna go five seasons it's gonna need a bit more than girls eat each other in the forest I can totally see one season where they go back on purpose to face all this down. I'm still pretty convinced it's a spirit witches in some kind of Vancouver Bermuda Triangle but I think it's feasible there are a few in the flesh adherents out there with the girls, who have no interest in helping save them or return to them to civilization, unless they say join with them. That's why I don't think pit girl actually had to be a Yellowjacket. I can't and won't ague if it's silly, because I am happy to read this whole text as heavily genre, and already fantastical in so many ways I'm not sure why this is a step too far and indeed would tack more firmly into a more rational explanation for how those who came back did survive: they didn't actually do it alone or w/o resources, even if some of the resources in the winter was human flesh/sacrifice.

^totally agree with this….I always thought from season 1 some of them are still there, I originally thought Lottie was one of them, but whose to say Javi isn’t? Mari isn’t ? Javi does seem possessed, I don’t think he’s going to be the same person, might be easier for Travis as the seasons progress to let him go…

witchcraft makes the most sense based on what we’ve seen, but I know there’s talk about forest gods…which….I have feeling won’t go over as well with the fandom if that ends up happening 

Another reason I think other people come into this is because so far it seems we have quite a few survivors ….7 that we know of….I’m counting what, 7-8 people still unaccounted for? Just doesn’t seem like enough people left to eat plus  they have at least one more winter but I’m thinking they might have another half of a winter as well until they are rescued…also the show creators said it was about warring clans right? Maybe that didn’t mean with each other-

because if they really go “to war” then somebody’s leaving the cabin, what shelter will they have? unless there really is some underground shelter for them to go to, but to me the underground shelter mysteriously there is silly though it was in the vision

as for the moose, I’m thinking it was the one Nat saw, she shot it right? I think it slowly succumbed to its injury and fell through the ice…maybe it had an internal wound and didn’t bleed out

3 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I also think they're likely on the east side of Canada, as that's were the French speaking variety are located. I worked in upper Maine near the border for a summer and met people who only spoke French.

I think it’s been established they are in the Canadian Rockies which is west?
maybe hunter guy was just visiting from Quebec😉

On 4/15/2023 at 10:25 PM, WaltersHair said:

Moose weigh up to 1500 lbs. I'm not sure the girls could have pulled a waterlogged one out even in their prime.

Exactly what the hubby said as we watched….no way they could of pulled a moose out, I just wondered how they planned to bring it back?

[Shermie]

6 hours ago, snickers said:

but to me the underground shelter mysteriously there is silly

The only explanation I can think of is an abandoned mine. Canada is rich with minerals and mining seems logical. Maybe it had an area with a stash of supplies. I suppose one other explanation is a hermit, but typically such a person would live in the cabin, not an underground bunker.

I seriously doubt the plane crashed in Quebec. The flight path from New Jersey to Seattle only crosses Canadian air space over Southern Ontario; ending up in Quebec would mean going off course the minute the flight took off. The flight path gets close to the Alberta border so veering into the Canadian Rockies at that point makes sense. Although why no one in air traffic control noticed the flight going that far off course doesn’t make sense. Does anyone remember how far they were into the flight when it crashed? 

I’m still very curious about the outcome of Shauna’s pregnancy. So much speculation about random present day characters being that baby, but why would that be? If the baby survived, why would Shauna give it up for adoption? It would be what, 9 months old by then? And it’s her and Jeff’s child, the guy she marries, not the result of some one-nighter with a random guy. I really can’t see her having that baby in the cabin, the survivors bonding with it and helping raise it, and then when they’re rescued, she gives it away? No. I’m assuming the baby doesn’t survive.

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, snickers said:

Just doesn’t seem like enough people left to eat plus  they have at least one more winter but I’m thinking they might have another half of a winter as well until they are rescued…also the show creators said it was about warring clans right? Maybe that didn’t mean with each other-

The original synopsis for the show included the 'warring clans' bit but then it was taken out. I'm not sure if that means they went a different way or they just didn't want to spoil it. The writers and actors spoil plenty though so. I still think warring clans is possible but it seems like there's not really enough people to make that happen.

I agree with you that 7 people doesn't seem like enough for them to eat lol. Plus, I think there's probably still a chance at least 1 of those 7 actually survives so it'd be even less. But perhaps in the spring/summer/fall they're able to hunt animals to sustain them until the winter people hunting lol. 

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, Shermie said:

The only explanation I can think of is an abandoned mine. Canada is rich with minerals and mining seems logical. Maybe it had an area with a stash of supplies. I suppose one other explanation is a hermit, but typically such a person would live in the cabin, not an underground bunker.

I seriously doubt the plane crashed in Quebec. The flight path from New Jersey to Seattle only crosses Canadian air space over Southern Ontario; ending up in Quebec would mean going off course the minute the flight took off. The flight path gets close to the Alberta border so veering into the Canadian Rockies at that point makes sense. Although why no one in air traffic control noticed the flight going that far off course doesn’t make sense. Does anyone remember how far they were into the flight when it crashed? 

I’m still very curious about the outcome of Shauna’s pregnancy. So much speculation about random present day characters being that baby, but why would that be? If the baby survived, why would Shauna give it up for adoption? It would be what, 9 months old by then? And it’s her and Jeff’s child, the guy she marries, not the result of some one-nighter with a random guy. I really can’t see her having that baby in the cabin, the survivors bonding with it and helping raise it, and then when they’re rescued, she gives it away? No. I’m assuming the baby doesn’t survive.

The baby doesn’t survive. No way the press wouldn’t have picked up on that. 

[blixie]

Quote

I also think they're likely on the east side of Canada, as that's were the French speaking variety are located. I worked in upper Maine near the border for a summer and met people who only spoke French.

Those are definitely not the mountains of Eastern Canada far far to large, and the showrunners have said I think they are in Western Canada/Vancouver, and when they're rescued they get off a plane in Seattle. Almost everyone in Canada learns French and while Quebec is the Frenchiest, there are French speakers in most of the provinces. I think it's weird that they are that far west, but I guess they never said where the Nationals were being held, and they would have had to be in the air for over five hours and it didn't seem that long before it crashed.. 

 

Quote

 agree with you that 7 people doesn't seem like enough for them to eat lol. Plus, I think there's probably still a chance at least 1 of those 7 actually survives so it'd be even less. 

I think it's possible at some point they stop eating humans for sustenance and instead as purely ritual sacrifice. But again that only works for me if they are facing off against some other antagonist I mean killing your friends so the Wood witch gives you a deer or moose to eat is whoo a lot. Also eating people in the summer is gonna be one and done, since they don't have the resources for preserving other than the cold in the winter.

Quote

I think it slowly succumbed to its injury and fell through the ice…

As you said though it's 1500 pounds and 90% of that moose was underwater I don't think it would fall through slowly. It either fell through thick ice and would only have a couple of hooves in the water or it was going down all the way. I think Nat saw a vision/hallucination and this was a real moose, if she shot a white moose there should have been blood in the snow when she looked around I thought she didn't even see prints?

I have to think Shauna baby is another reason I'm guessing there is another non Yellowjacket faction out there. If it's not dead the only place it could be is the woods with someone taking care of it. Just like Javi. 

[BitterApple]

10 hours ago, snickers said:

I’m counting what, 7-8 people still unaccounted for? Just doesn’t seem like enough people left to eat 

Agreed, plus as time goes on these girls are going to be losing more and more weight. There won't be enough meat on the ones they kill to sustain them for very long. One theory I have is that game becomes more plentiful during the warmer months, so they don't hunt their friends until that second winter, right before they get rescued.