Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Beyond not understanding failing to ascertain the correct pronunciation of something previously unfamiliar to you if you're going to report on it, I don't understand looking at the spelling and assuming -yl is an -ol, rather than -il, sound.

Maybe a low level of dyslexia is involved?

Or, I suppose a TV reporter may have a boss or director or other superior who pronounces it incorrectly, or maybe even hears it incorrectly pronounced by a respected academic (it can happen) and then sees the spelling, and just shrugs it off as a weird pronunciation. 

But, yeah, when it's a scientific term, I'm less inclined to excuse it.

 

[JTMacc99]

On 7/18/2023 at 7:16 PM, Bastet said:

I don't understand looking at the spelling and assuming -yl is an -ol, rather than -il, sound.

I understand it. English is not a particularly friendly language when it comes to looking at how a word is spelled to know how it is pronounced. 

Just take a look at three letter words that have "ow" involved:

• Bow (heh, that one is pronounced two different ways all by itself)
• Cow
• Dow (as in Dow Jones)
• How
• Low
• Now
• Row
• Sow (another one that goes both ways)
• Tow
• Vow
• Wow

So if you hear most people calling Fentanyl Fentanol, and don't do any research on it, it's completely possible that the ol sound at the end is the right way to say it. English can't be trusted to make sense.

 

[Mondrianyone]

"Row" also goes two ways, just to pile on.

[Bastet]

Yes, but there is not that same variety when it comes to words ending in -yl.  Most are pronounced with an ill/ell sound, not all/oll. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Bastet

[SweetieDarling]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:11 PM, Browncoat said:

Does pronunciation count as grammar?  The constant mispronunciation of "fentanyl" is driving me insane.  It has been in the news a lot lately, and of all the news readers and rehab workers and all the other people talking about it, exactly one has pronounced it correctly.  It is not "fentan-all," which implies a spelling of "fentanol."  That -yl at the end is more of an "ill" sound.

I assume these are the same people that say/said Oxycotton, instead of Oxycontin.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 7/18/2023 at 3:53 PM, JTMacc99 said:

It's not like fentanyl was a word that you would run across in literature or your SAT vocabulary studies when you were growing up.

Here's a not-new word for you:  anti-semitic.  The majority of people pronounce it so it rhymes with "phonetic," and I don't know why. 

Maybe Ta-Nehisi Coates can shed some light on it. 

[Lugal]

On 7/17/2023 at 3:11 PM, Browncoat said:

Does pronunciation count as grammar?  The constant mispronunciation of "fentanyl" is driving me insane.  It has been in the news a lot lately, and of all the news readers and rehab workers and all the other people talking about it, exactly one has pronounced it correctly.  It is not "fentan-all," which implies a spelling of "fentanol."  That -yl at the end is more of an "ill" sound.

For what it's worth, here's my theories: When people pronounce it with the stress the first syllable of the word FEN-ta-nil, the vowel of the final unstressed vowel drops off to a schwa /ə/ for it comes out like FEN-ta-nəl

Or, more likely, because it's an unfamiliar word for a drug, I think there's also probably some sort of analogy with other drugs like alcohol or Tylenol and other drugs that end in -ol.

[SoMuchTV]

55 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Here's a not-new word for you:  anti-semitic.  The majority of people pronounce it so it rhymes with "phonetic," and I don't know why. 

Maybe Ta-Nehisi Coates can shed some light on it. 

Well, to be fair, in a lot of areas and for some speakers, there's not a lot of difference between the short i and short e.  Is Ta-Nehisi Coates especially guilty of this?  I think I've seen his writings more than heard him speaking.

Where I've lived, it's not unusual, if you ask someone for a pen, they reply "eenk pin or straight pin?"

[partofme]

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Where I've lived, it's not unusual, if you ask someone for a pen, they reply "eenk pin or straight pin?"

This reminds me of the time my aunt (late uncle’s third wife) asked me for a pin and I assumed she meant a safety pin, only to find out she actually wanted a pen.  

Edited July 21, 2023 by partofme

[Mondrianyone]

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Maybe Ta-Nehisi Coates can shed some light on it.

I see what you did there.

People who work in convenience stores, especially the late-night shifts, are said to have the most dangerous job of all, and as someone who watches The First 48 like it's my job, I believe it. Maybe we should start thanking them, too.

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Maybe Ta-Nehisi Coates can shed some light on it. 

 

26 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

I see what you did there.

I don't see what you did there.  Is it just me?  Can you enlighten me?

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I don't see what you did there.  Is it just me?  Can you enlighten me?

The poster brought up semitic being mispronounced as if it were spelled semetic.  Ta-Nehisi is pronounced as if it were spelled Nehasi.  So the joke was maybe he can explain.  (At least, that's how I took it.)

Edited July 22, 2023 by Bastet

[SoMuchTV]

4 minutes ago, Bastet said:

The poster brought up semitic being pronounced as if it was spelled semetic.  Ta-Nehisi is pronounced as if it was spelled Nehasi.  So the joke was maybe he can explain.

Aha, thank you. I’m sure I’ve seen the name much more in print than I’ve heard it, so that went way over my head. 

[Mondrianyone]

11 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Ta-Nehisi is pronounced as if it were spelled Nehasi.  So the joke was maybe he can explain.  (At least, that's how I took it.)

That's how I took it as well. These subtle spelling/pronunciation jokes are a rare thing. They should be appreciated.

[Lugal]

18 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Where I've lived, it's not unusual, if you ask someone for a pen, they reply "eenk pin or straight pin?"

The pin-pen merger.  I'm guessing you lived in the South?

[SuprSuprElevated]

And will the world ever be rid of the scourge of "Alltimers", or its 2nd cousin, "Oldtimers"?

🤦‍♀️

[SoMuchTV]

10 hours ago, Lugal said:

The pin-pen merger.  I'm guessing you lived in the South?

South-ish. Appalachians-ish. (And don’t call them appellations.) To be clear, it wasn’t everyone, but it wasn’t unheard of. 

[Browncoat]

9 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

(And don’t call them appellations.)

Thank you!

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

South-ish. Appalachians-ish. (And don’t call them appellations.) To be clear, it wasn’t everyone, but it wasn’t unheard of. 

Wouldn't dream of it!
But Appalachians do have some whimsical appellations. 😁

[Leeds]

*  Why do people struggle so much with conjugating certain verbs?  A couple of recent examples I've heard/read:

"I wouldn't have went if . . . " and

"What scene almost got cut if Greta didn't stand her ground?"

* Also, this currently ubiquitous word is pronounced as written - fentanyl not fentanol.

* Finally (for the time being), Chime ads make me nauseous: "I can overdraft up to $250."

Edited July 24, 2023 by Leeds
Question mark not period.

[SoMuchTV]

15 minutes ago, Leeds said:

* Finally (for the time being), Chime ads make me nauseous: "I can overdraft up to $250."

I had vague recollections of when to use nauseous vs nauseated, so in the spirit of the thread, you inspired me to look it up:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/nauseated-vs-nauseous/

They say:

Quote

Even though nauseous and nauseated are often used to mean feeling unwell, many purists insist that nauseous means “causing nausea” while nauseated means “feeling sick.”In everyday modern usage, it is acceptable to use both words to mean feeling ill—your audience will likely understand what you mean. However, in more formal situations, use each word correctly.

So you should be good.  Unless one of the "many purists" is reading here ;-)

 

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Unless one of the "many purists" is reading here ;-)

🙋‍♀️

[Leeds]

26 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I had vague recollections of when to use nauseous vs nauseated, so in the spirit of the thread, you inspired me to look it up:

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/nauseated-vs-nauseous/

They say:

So you should be good.  Unless one of the "many purists" is reading here ;-)

 

Thanks for letting me off the hook, and apologies to the "many purists", which I'm usually one of of which I am usually one.  😁

[Leeds]

On 7/21/2023 at 2:58 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Well, to be fair, in a lot of areas and for some speakers, there's not a lot of difference between the short i and short e.  Is Ta-Nehisi Coates especially guilty of this?  I think I've seen his writings more than heard him speaking.

Where I've lived, it's not unusual, if you ask someone for a pen, they reply "eenk pin or straight pin?"

I see the difference between pronouncing "pen" as "pin" is a regional accent thing, whereas pronouncing "fentanyl" as "fentanol" is due to ignorance about the spelling, like the "nuclear" "nucular" example given above. 

[supposebly]

5 hours ago, Leeds said:

pronouncing "fentanyl" as "fentanol" is due to ignorance about the spelling, like the "nuclear" "nucular" example given above. 

English spelling rarely makes sense, so why should it in these cases? Maybe the dialect of those speakers has no or less difference in those vowels in that position.

Every dialect pronounces the same spelling a bit differently. And different spellings the same sometimes.  

Merriam Webster lists two so-called standard pronunciations and includes the non-standard nucular. That doesn't mean other's don't have the right to exist.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nuclear

For another example for the inconsistency of English spelling, the word "data". Merriam Webster alone has three pronunciations for it. I'm sure there are many more.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/data

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, supposebly said:

English spelling rarely makes sense, so why should it in these cases? Maybe the dialect of those speakers has no or less difference in those vowels in that position.

Every dialect pronounces the same spelling a bit differently. And different spellings the same sometimes.  

Merriam Webster lists two so-called standard pronunciations and includes the non-standard nucular. That doesn't mean other's don't have the right to exist.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nuclear

For another example for the inconsistency of English spelling, the word "data". Merriam Webster alone has three pronunciations for it. I'm sure there are many more.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/data

Yes to all of the above.

Pronunciation variants only bother me so far as I might misunderstand the meaning, whereas "improper" grammar makes my blood pressure rise a bit. 

Wikipedia covers the "nucular" example in detail, especially under "Notable users," and "In popular culture."
Apparently 4 POTUS's used the "nucular" pronunciation.
I never took note of the "nucular" pronunciation, even when I heard people mock its use during the last of those "nucular" POTUSs noted in Wikipedia. 
But when that same mocked POTUS started butchering grammar, I would shudder and turn off the radio. 

This was the same era in which I was married for 8 years to someone who made excuses for saying "I seen" instead of either "I have seen" or "I saw," including claiming that "I saw" sounded like he was sawing🪚 something.
He has been much more happily married for 30 years to someone who doesn't mind that grammar choice or any of his much bigger issues.

I've defended college students who say "I axed" for "I asked," pointing out that it dates back to Shakespeare (also the early English Bible and Chaucer), which I felt I could and should do as a Reference Librarian acting in loco parentis.
But I also wondered if those students gathered around the library reference desk whose usage of "ax" I was defending thought I was just embarrassing myself and everyone else.

 

[Browncoat]

In chemistry, a -yl ending has a different connotation than an -ol ending, so pronunciation matters.  That said, I don't know the actual chemical composition of fentanyl, but I would guess (hope?) that the people who named it know the meanings of chemical endings and used -yl on purpose.

[TattleTeeny]

I have mentioned here before that a peeve of mine is the misuse of the word "suspect" in news reporting, and today I have a something similar. I am vaguely following a story of a murder and some of the reporting is using variations of the phrase "possible foul play." The victim was stabbed multiple times -- how the hell is the foulness of this play deemed merely "possible"?!

I copy edit for a living and I feel like I get much less upset by errors from "everyday" people than other people/non-editors do. Maybe it's because I am desensitized. Or maybe I have become more tolerant over the years. Or maybe I know that I too make errors while typing or speaking even though I know better. Or maybe I know that a lot of the things people find wrong are not necessarily flat-out wrong -- and that people who make these errors aren't necessarily dumb (like I am not dumb because I super-suck at just about anything number-related!). Or maybe because I don't get paid anymore if people write perfectly!

I mean, I notice other people's mistakes, believe me, but I just don't worry too much about it unless I am working* -- and even then, all I can do is call it out and attempt to fix it. If the powers that be don't want it fixed...oh well (< this is probably the main reason that I have loosened up over time). Plus, I know first-hand that even the best editor cannot catch everything (whether it's due to budget, unrealistic time constraints/deadlines, clients' demands or misconceptions, negligible/inconsistent source material/style, just being human, etc).

That said, I still have a laundry list of annoyances!

*Or the error-maker is a real asshole, haha!

Edited August 3, 2023 by TattleTeeny

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 8/2/2023 at 2:51 PM, TattleTeeny said:

I am vaguely following a story of a murder and some of the reporting is using variations of the phrase "possible foul play." The victim was stabbed multiple times -- how the hell is the foulness of this play deemed merely "possible"?!

Maybe "foul play" is used as a term of art?  So they are saying

"possible 'foul play'"

and not saying being intentionally stabbed multiple times might not be foul.  Someone could accidentally fall on a knife multiple times.  Or maybe even stab himself.  I don't think someone stabbing himself would be considered foul play.  So if there's no proof that a person stabbed another person with intent to harm him, saying "possible" foul play might be appropriate.  

Or it could be that they're using "possible" the same way they use "alleged"--throw it in constantly when talking about crime, which I find annoying because I always parse it to see if they really need the "alleged" in that context.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Or it could be that they're using "possible" the same way they use "alleged"--throw it in constantly when talking about crime, which I find annoying because I always parse it to see if they really need the "alleged" in that context.

Yup. And this ties into my issue with "suspect" being misused -- if we literally see someone throw a rock through a window, that person is the perpetrator and not the suspect, regardless of whether we know the person's identity. Just as the person who murdered someone is not the suspect, even if we do not yet know who that person is. I feel like it's media outlets being overly cautious about slander or libel or some shit,  without realizing that it's not an issue in these instances. 

[SuprSuprElevated]

Am I the only one bugged by the use of the word "whenever" in place of "when" in this example?  Should I be? This has always sounded juvenile and well, wrong to me.

malfunction-forces-riders-climb-down-200-foot-roller-coaster-cedar-point

[SoMuchTV]

25 minutes ago, SuprSuprElevated said:

Am I the only one bugged by the use of the word "whenever" in place of "when" in this example?  Should I be? This has always sounded juvenile and well, wrong to me.

malfunction-forces-riders-climb-down-200-foot-roller-coaster-cedar-point

I’m not actually seeing the example in your link - maybe I’m not clicking through far enough - but “whenever” for “when” is definitely a southern/Appalachian thing. You probably won’t hear it on the national news, but great aunt Libby will tell you about “whenever I went to the Piggly-Wiggly yesterday”.

[TattleTeeny]

I believe it’s regional. I used to be very confused by this, especially with a presumably one-time event — as in “whenever I was born, it was in the middle of a tornado” or something. But I have since heard articulate people use “whenever” this way (one being Damien Echols).

Edited August 4, 2023 by TattleTeeny

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I’m not actually seeing the example in your link

It's in the video, not the text.

It drives me batty to see/hear it, but I try to quickly remind myself of regional dialect habits and move on.

[SoMuchTV]

7 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

But I have since heard articulate people use “whenever” this way (one being Damien Echols).

Yes, Arkansas, right?  That totally tracks. 

[SweetieDarling]

On 8/3/2023 at 7:38 PM, SoMuchTV said:

I’m not actually seeing the example in your link - maybe I’m not clicking through far enough - but “whenever” for “when” is definitely a southern/Appalachian thing. You probably won’t hear it on the national news, but great aunt Libby will tell you about “whenever I went to the Piggly-Wiggly yesterday”.

When I first moved to MD, one of the women I worked with was telling a story about "whenever I was pregnant,.."

She was only pregnant once. I was very confused.

Edited August 5, 2023 by SweetieDarling

[Moose135]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:51 PM, TattleTeeny said:

The victim was stabbed multiple times -- how the hell is the foulness of this play deemed merely "possible"?!

Maybe there was a misspelling - perhaps a chicken was suspected in the stabbing, and it was supposed to say possible fowl play...

[Browncoat]

"and then he ran into my knife.  He ran into my knife ten times." (from Cell Block Tango in "Chicago")

Edited August 6, 2023 by Browncoat

[Ancaster]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:09 PM, SuprSuprElevated said:

Am I the only one bugged by the use of the word "whenever" in place of "when" in this example?  Should I be? This has always sounded juvenile and well, wrong to me.

malfunction-forces-riders-climb-down-200-foot-roller-coaster-cedar-point

Can you be a bit more specific about where whenever is used?  (For some reason, even though I love points of grammatical minutiae, I feel little compulsion to listen to 12 minutes of news about a roller coaster in Oklahoma, only to realize I missed the relevant bit.) 

[Ancaster]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:03 AM, SweetieDarling said:

When I first moved to MD, one of the women I worked with was telling a story about "whenever I was pregnant,.."

She was only pregnant once. I was very confused.

Speaking of which, I hate it when couples say "we're pregnant".  I don't know whether it's a grammar peeve or a science peeve, but I do know it's physically impossible.

[Browncoat]

Dear "Journalist,"

That guy in Pennsylvania did not "allude" police.  I can't even figure out what that means!

(Yet another example of how spellcheck is not always your friend!)

[Mondrianyone]

Okay, humor me here. Maybe when he was hiding in the woods, somebody walking by heard him whisper, "I think I'm in a copse," and thought he was alluding to the police.

Of course, this would be sophisticated language for a Brazilian immigrant, but stranger things have happened.

No?

[squeezel]

On today's CBS Sunday Morning, Jane Pauley was interviewing a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.  His area of expertise is jail breaks, people who escape from prison.  He couldn't pronounce escape.  The first time he did it, I thought that maybe he just stumbled over his words, but no, he said "exscape" every single time.  It reminds me of Patricia Marquette on "Medium." She worked at the "districk" Attorney's office.  Couldn't someone stop filing to tell them?

Edited September 17, 2023 by squeezel

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, squeezel said:

On today's CBS Sunday Morning, Jane Pauley was interviewing a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.  His area of expertise is jail breaks, people who escape from prison.  He couldn't pronounce escape.  The first time he did it, I thought that maybe he just stumbled over his words, but no, he said "exscape" every single time.  It reminds me of Patricia Marquette on "Medium." She worked at the "districk" Attorney's office.  Couldn't someone stop filing to tell them?

Irritating mispronunciation? Yes?
Grammar error? No?

I think there was a thread on Things I Heard, but I don’t recall exactly to what it pertained or where it resides.

[squeezel]

I know it wasn't a grammar error.  I just wanted to share it.  I wasn't aware of the other thread.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 9/9/2023 at 12:40 AM, Ancaster said:

Can you be a bit more specific about where whenever is used?  (For some reason, even though I love points of grammatical minutiae, I feel little compulsion to listen to 12 minutes of news about a roller coaster in Oklahoma, only to realize I missed the relevant bit.) 

I hear ya.

I didn't listen to it, either.  But the typical irritant is when instead of saying something like "When I was in high school..." someone says "Whenever I was in high school."  Or a widow who has been married once says, "Whenever I was married..."

It might be regional.

If examples didn't leap to your mind, consider yourself lucky. 

[Quof]

"When" is definitive - "We had lunch when she arrived."   It happened at a specific time.  

"Whenever" is wishy washy.  You would say "We will have lunch whenever she arrives", because it's up in the air.  You should not say "We had lunch whenever she arrived" because you know the specific time that was. 

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, Quof said:

"Whenever" is wishy washy.  You would say "We will have lunch whenever she arrives", because it's up in the air.  You should not say "We had lunch whenever she arrived" because you know the specific time that was. 

Right, I don’t disagree with the general usage, but it’s definitely a regional variant and I don’t think Aunt Lydia is going to stop saying it that way because whippersnapper nephew tells her that’s not how you should talk. 

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

…something like "When I was in high school..." someone says "Whenever I was in high school."  Or a widow who has been married once says, "Whenever I was married..."

It might be regional.

If examples didn't leap to your mind, consider yourself lucky. 

I don’t recall hearing this use (misuse?) of “whenever.”

A “widow who has been married once” saying "Whenever I was married..." might imply a sense of it no longer being a fixed date to celebrate? A kind of erased experience — maybe sad and wistful.
Or, if the marriage had lost its sizzle long before his death, the “whenever” might signify that the dates were insignificant — kind of like: ‘no need to feel sorry for me.’

Just musing…💭

[Lugal]

On 9/17/2023 at 3:39 PM, Quof said:

"When" is definitive - "We had lunch when she arrived."   It happened at a specific time.  

"Whenever" is wishy washy.  You would say "We will have lunch whenever she arrives", because it's up in the air.  You should not say "We had lunch whenever she arrived" because you know the specific time that was.

It never bothered me because it's a subtle shade of meaning between them, sort of the English equivalent of the Dubitative mood, expressing doubtful, uncertain or dubious information.

"We had lunch when she arrived."  This relays information about two actions.

"We had lunch whenever she arrived." Again this relays information about two actions, while expressing uncertainty about one of them: the time of her arrival.