Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[bilgistic]

I'd say there should be commas after "yet" and "do" and a period after "know". However, I've given up hope for proper grammar, punctuation, spelling and syntax on memes.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, CoderLady said:

I think so, but I'll leaf it up to others to decide.

Ha ha ha! I'm much less stressed now.

 

3 hours ago, topanga said:

Good one! My ears scream for a comma. Otherwise it can read like, 'So if you do lettuce' [or if you drugs]

I thought it read like that too (only I somehow missed the college student-drugs connection, heh), but then I thought maybe that reading was part of the joke--especially since they are college students.

[legaleagle53]

7 hours ago, topanga said:

Good one! My ears scream for a comma. Otherwise it can read like, 'So if you do lettuce' [or if you drugs]

But that reading makes no sense, because the full sentence is "So if you do lettuce know."  "Know" is what completes the thought -- "'lettuce' [i.e., let us] know".  In other words, your reading ignores the full context of an obvious play on words.

Edited July 20, 2017 by legaleagle53

[FormerMod-a1]

My mind wants to read it as "So if you do lettuce.." too, with the "Know" being the beginning of the consequence.  Maybe it's because it's on a second line, I don't know.  But leaving it as "So if you do" w/o the comma seems to lead to expecting the next word to be what they do, and the implied comma being after what they do.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[ABay]

Last night, the news crawl on one of the local stations anounced that 2 new Happy Potter books would be released later this year.

[topanga]

9 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

But that reading makes no sense, because the full sentence is "So if you do lettuce know."  "Know" is what completes the thought -- "'lettuce' [i.e., let us] know".  In other words, your reading ignores the full context of an obvious play on words.

I know what the author meant, but if I were reading the sentence without the visual context clue, I might start off reading it the 'incorrect' way, realize that makes no sense, then start over and read it the way the author intended. Bottom line, a tiny comma can save a reader's time and make the meaning of a sentence clear the first time you read it. 

4 minutes ago, ABay said:

Last night, the news crawl on one of the local stations anounced that 2 new Happy Potter books would be released later this year.

Happy Potter. The early reader companion series to Harry Potter books. 

[Sandman87]

A Ford dealership in my area has a commercial which urges viewers to "Visit us at [website] where we have the most likes and dislikes than any other dealership!" Really? The most than any other? I can't help wondering if they realize that one of the things they're saying is that they get "the most" dislikes than any other dealership.

 

 

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 7:17 AM, topanga said:

Happy Potter. The early reader companion series to Harry Potter books. 

This makes me think of a cross between Harry Potter and Happy Gilmore. Adam Sandler vs. Voldemort is not a pretty picture.

[bilgistic]

I'm irrationally annoyed that the title card for the new show, "Midnight, Texas", isn't properly punctuated. It should be "Charlaine Harris's Midnight, Texas", not "Charlaine Harris' Midnight, Texas". It wouldn't be "Charlaine' Midnight, Texas". Same concept.

I might have to dust off my old Twitter account to address this important manner with the producers.

[legaleagle53]

18 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I'm irrationally annoyed that the title card for the new show, "Midnight, Texas", isn't properly punctuated. It should be "Charlaine Harris's Midnight, Texas", not "Charlaine Harris' Midnight, Texas". It wouldn't be "Charlaine' Midnight, Texas". Same concept.

I might have to dust off my old Twitter account to address this important manner with the producers.

The spelling rule about the use of the apostrophe to show possession following a proper noun ending in -s has apparently been in a state of flux for some time.  According to Wikipedia, there really is no hard-and-fast rule regarding the practice, and not even the most authoritative style guides agree.  The best guide, and the one that I was taught to use, is that while either variation is acceptable, the one that sounds right, or at least less awkward, is the one to use.  So you simply have to ask yourself whether "Charlene Harris' Midnight, Texas" sounds more natural than "Charlene Harris's Midnight, Texas", and punctuate according to what your ear tells you sounds right.

[riley702]

And then be consistent!

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

The spelling rule about the use of the apostrophe to show possession following a proper noun ending in -s has apparently been in a state of flux for some time.

Good because I can never remember anyway.  

[meep.meep]

That makes two of us.  Why don't they just call the damn show Midnight, Texas ?

On 7/20/2017 at 7:13 AM, ABay said:

Last night, the news crawl on one of the local stations anounced that 2 new Happy Potter books would be released later this year.

So that's what Harry and Ginny named the kid!

[Sandman87]

From the local newscast: "A record 29 children have died this year as a result of being left in a hot car." Wouldn't a car that seats 29 be called a bus?

[shapeshifter]

On July 25, 2017 at 10:56 PM, legaleagle53 said:

The spelling rule about the use of the apostrophe to show possession following a proper noun ending in -s has apparently been in a state of flux for some time.  According to Wikipedia, there really is no hard-and-fast rule regarding the practice, and not even the most authoritative style guides agree.  The best guide, and the one that I was taught to use, is that while either variation is acceptable, the one that sounds right, or at least less awkward, is the one to use.  So you simply have to ask yourself whether "Charlene Harris' Midnight, Texas" sounds more natural than "Charlene Harris's Midnight, Texas", and punctuate according to what your ear tells you sounds right.

 

On July 25, 2017 at 11:11 PM, riley702 said:

And then be consistent!

If, by "consistent," you mean that I would always type "all the Harrises' possessions" or "the toad species' croak," but I would also always type "Charles Harris's possessions" or "the stock market loss's effect" because they sound right that way, then, yes, be consistent—when it sounds right.  ;-)

[riley702]

13 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

 

If, by "consistent," you mean that I would always type "all the Harrises' possessions" or "the toad species' croak," but I would also always type "Charles Harris's possessions" or "the stock market loss's effect" because they sound right that way, then, yes, be consistent—when it sounds right.  ;-)

Yes. I'm an s' person myself, and would probably write it "all the Harris' possessions". 

*I had to google whether or not it was correct to use an before s' instead of a. It's apparently the sound and not the spelling. Whew!

[legaleagle53]

58 minutes ago, riley702 said:

Yes. I'm an s' person myself, and would probably write it "all the Harris' possessions". 

*I had to google whether or not it was correct to use an before s' instead of a. It's apparently the sound and not the spelling. Whew!

Actually, as a plural noun, "Harrises" would naturally take the apostrophe after the final "s": "Harrises.'"  That's always been the rule regarding any noun that forms its plural by adding "s": "boys'," "girls'," "dresses'", etc.  The problem only arises when a SINGULAR noun ends in "s," and that's when the rule about punctuating according to what sounds right applies.

[riley702]

I'll concede the Harrises' bit, but with the "a" vs "an" thing, I was referring to the part of the sentence where I wrote that I was AN s' person rather than A s' person. Using AN vs A before nouns vs consonants, except when consonants like S sound like they begin with a vowel, so it's proper to use AN.

[legaleagle53]

39 minutes ago, riley702 said:

I'll concede the Harrises' bit, but with the "a" vs "an" thing, I was referring to the part of the sentence where I wrote that I was AN s' person rather than A s' person. Using AN vs A before nouns vs consonants, except when consonants like S sound like they begin with a vowel, so it's proper to use AN.

Correct.  A gold star for you!  :)

[bilgistic]

My point has gotten very lost.

"Midnight, Texas" is based upon Charlaine Harris's (not Harris')--possessive case--books. Writing Harris' is the same as writing Charlaine' or Jim' or Linda'--it's incorrect. It should be Harris's books, Jones's books, Holmes's books.

If her family showed up at a cookout, the Harrises arrived, but that's pluralizing a proper noun--not possessive. If the Harrises brought potato salad, it would be the Harrises' potato salad--plural and possessive.

[riley702]

Your point wasn't lost. Both are equally correct. Just pick one and be consistent.

[Fairfax]

This morning on the local TV news (in a big city where people ought to know better), an announcer pointed out that bad air quality during the current heat wave is being "exasperated" by smoke from nearby forest fires.  No wonder I have a headache.

[Ohwell]

One thing that has annoyed me is the misuse of sympathy vs. empathy.  This happens so often that I think people are beginning to just use the words interchangeably.  

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

One thing that has annoyed me is the misuse of sympathy vs. empathy.  This happens so often that I think people are beginning to just use the words interchangeably.  

I haven't noticed that, but lately there seems to be too little of either one in American discourse except when there is an apocalyptic disaster.

[Ohwell]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

I haven't noticed that, but lately there seems to be too little of either one in American discourse except when there is an apocalyptic disaster.

I hear local newscasters doing it a lot. 

[Sandman87]

Here's one that I've noticed a lot on TV in the last couple of years: For all of my life when someone wanted to communicate that another person had a grudge against them, they'd say "he has it in for me." Lately I've been hearing "he has it out for me." Not only does it sound wrong, but it makes me visualize someone walking around with their fly open and "it" hanging out.

[scriggle]

Today a local news anchor informed me about the contents of the letter President Obama left for his predecessor.

So apparently Obama can time travel.

[Annber03]

9 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Today a local news anchor informed me about the contents of the letter President Obama left for his predecessor.

So apparently Obama can time travel.

LMAO :D! 

[Moose135]

27 minutes ago, scriggle said:

So apparently Obama can time travel.

He does have many talents!

[Sandman87]

4 hours ago, scriggle said:

Today a local news anchor informed me about the contents of the letter President Obama left for his predecessor.

So apparently Obama can time travel.

Maybe the White House mailman can time travel, or they have a mailbox with a time portal in it, like in The Lake House.

[kassygreene]

10 hours ago, scriggle said:

Today a local news anchor informed me about the contents of the letter President Obama left for his predecessor.

So apparently Obama can time travel.

It's a side effect of being good at three dimensional chess.

[legaleagle53]

12 hours ago, scriggle said:

Today a local news anchor informed me about the contents of the letter President Obama left for his predecessor.

So apparently Obama can time travel.

Well, then why wasn't he in the White House doing something on 9/11 or sending aid when Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005?  ;-)

[ChromaKelly]

On 3/2/2017 at 11:35 PM, mojito said:

Right. And English teachers have been trying for centuries to put an end to they/their, too, I bet. Teachers and editors are a tenacious lot.

I (mis)use they/their in conversation, though when writing for myself, I go old school and use his or he. In corporate training, many of the developers give names to hypothetical characters (Sue wants to....ask her...) and they'll alternate with male and female names on other screens.

Wow. Grammarians have waved the white flag. Sounds like this new law is a done deal. Hell has frozen over. Somewhere there is a grave that Miss Thistlebottom is rolling in. (Sorry, Miss Thistlebottom, I couldn't resist that last sentence.)

Okay, here's something that I hear in American and British English speech all the time. 

"Try and do it" as opposed to "try to do it". The first one seems pretty awkward, but I rarely hear people say "to".  One can justify the former all he wants (are you happy now, Miss T?) but the latter is more precise.

I had a teacher who pounded "try to" as opposed to "try and" in my head.  "Try and" makes no sense.

As for they/their as gender neutral, singular pronouns, I have given up as well. I also see a lot of alternating between he and she in manuals and such, varying the gender in different scenarios. But, I can see why a writer would want to use gender neutral pronouns to avoid problems. Why is the customer with a complaint female? Why is the manager male?
However, I disagree with using they/their when the gender is known. I remember an episode of How I Met Your Mother when Lily had written Marshall a letter that was to be read upon her death (I think that was it?) and she used "they" for "I hope you find someone, and that they love you..." something along those lines. I don't think it was supposed to be that she's including the possibility of him finding love with a man. It just felt awkward.

[mojito]

Anyone wince whenever house hunters declare, "It's loud out here"?

[Moose135]

[AimingforYoko]

From a commenter on The A.V. Club (OT: Man, has it gotten sad over there):
"A line from the Variety article says, 'Variety has done some research into It's budget.' Take note, this is the only instance which this sentence is grammatically correct."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 9/10/2017 at 1:19 AM, Moose135 said:

I have that shirt too.

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

From a commenter on The A.V. Club (OT: Man, has it gotten sad over there):
"A line from the Variety article says, 'Variety has done some research into It's budget.' Take note, this is the only instance which this sentence is grammatically correct."

Not "in which?" I'm so confused.

[Qoass]

They are talking about the movie It so It's is the correct contraction denoting possession. Usually when you see that, the writer is using "It's" improperly because the apostrophe is there to show a contraction of "It is".

[lucindabelle]

I heard ALI MELBER get this wrong. HEs a lawyer so I'm baffled.

 

lawyers of all people know disinterested doesn't mean UNinterested it means having no conflict of interest! A disinterested party could be VERY interested in what happens!

 

and "between she and I."  NO. Between takes an object. 

 

Between me and her thanks.

 

also why do people have trouble with whom? If you'd say him you'd say whom. Simple. 

Oh and when did "wait for" become "wait on?"

i find myself saying it too but really doesn't wait on mean to serve, like a waiter?

 

im.... waiting for my man....

26 dollars in my hand...

 

"waiting on my man"

just sounds weird.

[legaleagle53]

On 9/17/2017 at 10:01 PM, lucindabelle said:

and "between she and I."  NO. Between takes an object.  Between me and her thanks.

Actually, it's "between her and me."  The rule is that the first-person pronoun, whether subject or object, always comes last.  The order in a series (or pair) of personal pronouns is second person (the one being spoken to), third person (the one being spoken about), and first person (the one doing the speaking).  2-3-1.

[Sandman87]

From a local ad that's driving me crazy: "What are you hungry for dinner tonight?" No! You may not combine "hungry for" and "for dinner." There is no national shortage of the word "for", so there's no need to conserve it.

[lucindabelle]

On 9/19/2017 at 8:52 PM, legaleagle53 said:

Actually, it's "between her and me."  The rule is that the first-person pronoun, whether subject or object, always comes last.  The order in a series (or pair) of personal pronouns is second person (the one being spoken to), third person (the one being spoken about), and first person (the one doing the speaking).  2-3-1.

But between her and me sounds wierd.

Ok then, "for". "for you and I." NO.  Just no.

Though I do accept "for we the people" because "we the people" is substituting as an object, though it should be "for us."

Seriously, I do not know how native speakers get this wrong.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 9/18/2017 at 1:01 AM, lucindabelle said:

im.... waiting for my man....

26 dollars in my hand...

 

"waiting on my man"

just sounds weird.

Not that it's the best source, but Mick Jagger disagrees. "I'm not waitin' on a lady, I'm just waitin' on a friend." :-)

[Fairfax]

Jagger is a fine source -- for both the British English vernacular & the American rural southern colloquial as used in old blues songs. 

I don't know about the British vernacular, but "waiting on" instead of "waiting for" is commonly used in casual speech in Texas:  "Just waiting on you, Bro -- hurry up!".

[Sandman87]

During the The Vietnam War on PBS last night, I noticed a protester in one film clip holding a beautifully lettered sign that read "Bring our GI's home." Bad grammar apparently is not a new development.

[lucindabelle]

On 9/22/2017 at 9:23 PM, Fairfax said:

Jagger is a fine source -- for both the British English vernacular & the American rural southern colloquial as used in old blues songs. 

I don't know about the British vernacular, but "waiting on" instead of "waiting for" is commonly used in casual speech in Texas:  "Just waiting on you, Bro -- hurry up!".

Interesting.  Makes sense that it's Southern. Clearly it's not Eastern. See "Waiting for my man." To wait on is to serve. See waittress. But now it's become so common I find myself saying "waiting on" too to mean "wait for."

 

Considering that “to wait on” also has a secondary meaning of “to act as an attendant to”, usually as a waiter in a restaurant, whereas “to wait for” is unambiguous, I recommend to avoid the use of “wait on” in the sense of “await” altogether, unless you are a native speaker of a dialect where such usage is common; ...

'Wait for' vs. 'wait on' – which preposition? - Jakub Marian

[Milburn Stone]

I've found my peeps. (Now to read all 1999 previous posts.)

[Ohwell]

On my local news channel, there's a weather woman who says "cumminup" for "coming up," and now it seems to have infected the rest of the news cast.  Before the news break to commercials and the upcoming news stories, just about every one of them says cumminup and it drives me crazy.  I've watched this channel for years but I just might have to switch now. 

[topanga]

On 9/29/2017 at 3:55 PM, Ohwell said:

On my local news channel, there's a weather woman who says "cumminup" for "coming up," and now it seems to have infected the rest of the news cast.  Before the news break to commercials and the upcoming news stories, just about every one of them says cumminup and it drives me crazy.  I've watched this channel for years but I just might have to switch now. 

Hear, hear! Newscasters don't need to sound nasally or monotone, but my ears scream for proper enunciation and diction. (Can ears scream?). 

[Sandman87]

I've noticed that the BBC World News newscasters have a tendency to pronounce "vulnerable" as "vunerable." Not quite as annoying as "ki'en", thank goodness.

 

32 minutes ago, topanga said:

(Can ears scream?). 

I don't know, but I suspect that they can wax eloquent.