Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

…the use of "So" to begin the answer to any question has become something of a universal tic…

I recall opening a very old (early-to-mid 20th century?) book in the college library where I worked for 19 years, and seeing several paragraphs beginning with "Now,…". My ex-husband's father, born at the end of the 19th century, was in the habit of beginning a sentence with "Now." 
"So" (which I frequently use) seems to have taken the place of the unnecessary "Now." 

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

…the word "Therefore" would be a more formal way to start, but I feel like "So" and "Therefore" and "Thus" have become true synonyms in that context.

Now that I've re-read 👆this bit, I feel a bit better about the use of So and even Now. They do cue the reader (or listener) that the following words are a conclusion of what went before.

8 minutes ago, ABay said:

the writer could, and should, have left out So and started with It.

However, note that the "Now" at the beginning of my sentence above could not be removed without rewriting the sentence. At least mentally deleting "So" at the start of a sentence to determine if it's necessary is probably a good practice.

In the 90s I worked for 4 years at a college prep high school. The popular use of the sentence starter "So…" was peaking among the teen students. Students regularly recited a prayer over the intercom at the start of the day. After one of these recitations, our principal, the wonderfully feminist Sister Helen, wryly remarked: “I've never heard a prayer begin with 'So, in the name of' before.”
Sister Helen's remark has echoed in my mind for decades.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

I notice that "So . . . " is usually used in informal speech.  Not in formal writing. 

[fastiller]

In Ireland the word "now" is sometimes a full sentence (and not as a reply to "when?").  Generally when someone puts a cup of tea & a plate of biscuits (or a glass of beer or whisky) in front of you. 

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, ABay said:

the writer could, and should, have left out So and started with It.

Having now read the material that immediately precedes the paragraph, I agree with you.

[shapeshifter]

This turn of phrase was in a NYT Morning email today: “They seemed well and truly lost.”

The writer is this respected and well-educated, published author: wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Kirsch

But I'm still questioning the use and meaning of "well" here.👆
The writer is from the parts of the US where I lived until age 10, so it shouldn't be my unfamiliarity with a local colloquialism. 

Even allowing for the tone of the piece being somewhat informal, I'm just not sure how "well" adds to the meaning here. I guess it's like a well-done hamburger?
Here's the full paragraph:

Quote

A couple months ago, a friend of mine lost her phone. The next day, another friend lost his wallet. These things weren’t just misplaced; they didn’t surface the next day. They hadn’t slid out of a pocket and down between the couch cushions only to be found while tidying the house. The phone and wallet disappeared and didn’t come back. They seemed well and truly lost.

Is "well" just what the cool kids are saying these days?
It sounds a bit old-timey.

Edited February 22 by shapeshifter

[Zella]

I don't think that's a local idiom. It's not unfamiliar to me. If you look up "well and truly," it also yields multiple results, including book titles and dictionary entries. 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/well-and-truly

Edited February 22 by Zella

[Milburn Stone]

Like @Zella, I've heard "well and truly" a lot in pretty informed circles. 

FWIW, the context in which I hear it most is "We're well and truly f**ked."

[annzeepark914]

I just bought a birthday card. On the front of the (pretty pink) card are three words:

Happy

Happier

Happiest

Inside is a simple msg (something like, I hope you have a wonderful special day) This card is right up my alley. It really bugs me to hear people say something like, "I hope you have a more happy birthday" (not a great example, but you know what I mean 😉). I hear stuff like this frequently on TV news, talk shows, weather reports (& sometimes I yell a correction!) 

[Quof]

When discussing family circumstances, I recently said "I'm the younger child."  I got some puzzled looks.  "I have an older sibling."  More confusion.   "My parents had 2 children.   I'm the second of 2 children" 

Finally, someone said "So you're the youngest!"

"Nope!" I replied.

They were well and truly confused.

 

[Absolom]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is "well" just what the cool kids are saying these days?
It sounds a bit old-timey.

It is an old saying.  I heard it as a child and I'm a senior citizen.  My guess is the well is related to lost as in it is well lost or completely lost.

[fairffaxx]

At this site, the origin of the phrase "well and truly" is explained as follows:

Historically, the idiom was commonly used in legal contexts to describe the conclusion of a trial or case. When a verdict was reached, it was said that justice had been served “well and truly.” This usage dates back to medieval times when trials were conducted under strict rules and procedures.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

At this site, the origin of the phrase "well and truly" is explained as follows:

Historically, the idiom was commonly used in legal contexts to describe the conclusion of a trial or case. When a verdict was reached, it was said that justice had been served “well and truly.” This usage dates back to medieval times when trials were conducted under strict rules and procedures.

Thank you!
In that context "well" makes sense to me as an adverb describing the quality of the process of the legal deliberations. 
I don't have the same sense of the use of "well" in this context: "The phone and wallet disappeared and didn’t come back. They seemed well and truly lost" (Melissa Kirsch, nytimes.com/2025/02/22/briefing/lost-causes.html).

But I suppose if one is familiar with "well and truly" as an idiom, the meaning is clear from usage, if not meaning and/or grammar.

Edited February 23 by shapeshifter

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But I suppose if one is familiar with "well and truly" as an idiom, the meaning is clear from usage,

Yes, I've heard it all my life.  Like another poster, I've often heard/read it in the context of something negative, like the bad kind of "well and truly fucked", but not exclusively -- "well and truly" for emphasis - similar to completely, thoroughly, etc. - is used for neutral and positive things as well.

[EtheltoTillie]

Someone on another thread posted about the Apostrophe Protection Society. Bwah ha ha. 

It also belongs here. 

https://www.apostrophe.org.uk/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe_Protection_Society

Edited February 23 by EtheltoTillie

[Salacious Kitty]

A little fun. Wordy puns and dad jokes. 😀

[shapeshifter]

I still have 5 free gift articles for this month, so here all y'all go:
“How Y’all, Youse and You Guys Talk”
By Josh Katz and Wilson Andrews,
Dec. 21, 2013 [I didn't notice how dated it was until after I clicked the gift link.]
“What does the way you speak say about where you’re from? Answer all the questions below to see your personal dialect map.”
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/dialect-quiz-map.html?unlocked_article_code=1.zk4.R7kv.buQqxUuLPpn5&smid=url-share

The results weren't terrible for me, especially considering I don't have one area "where I'm from."

[Anela]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I still have 5 free gift articles for this month, so here all y'all go:
“How Y’all, Youse and You Guys Talk”
By Josh Katz and Wilson Andrews,
Dec. 21, 2013 [I didn't notice how dated it was until after I clicked the gift link.]
“What does the way you speak say about where you’re from? Answer all the questions below to see your personal dialect map.”
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/dialect-quiz-map.html?unlocked_article_code=1.zk4.R7kv.buQqxUuLPpn5&smid=url-share

The results weren't terrible for me, especially considering I don't have one area "where I'm from."

With the first one, it uses to be “you” or “you lot” if it was peoooe I knew well. That’s the British part. Now it’s you, you all, or you guys. same with yard sale and garage sale, or boot sale. Truck, or lorry. 

I apparently match with Washington D.C, Louisville, KY, and Baltimore.  
 

[Browncoat]

Those results were pretty accurate for me.

[Salacious Kitty]

It's crashed on me twice. But I don't think my results would surprise me. I'd get something west coast based, going on quizzes like this I have taken in the past. 🤔

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

“How Y’all, Youse and You Guys Talk”

I remember discussing that on TWoP back when it was published, because for many of them two or more responses applied equally for me, but you can usually only pick one (a couple of them have "both" options).  The worst is "a large motor vehicle used to carry freight" because I would use five of the options interchangeably -- semi, tractor-trailer, 18-wheeler, truck, and rig/big-rig.  So depending on which ones among my options I pick, I get placed in different cities.  It always accurately puts me in CA, at least.

 

[Zella]

I think I referenced this quiz a while back when we were discussing how to say water but didn't realize it was still active.

When I took it in grad school, it considered me vaguely Southern as in from somewhere south of the Mason Dixon line and east of Texas. LOL It absolutely pegged one of my classmates at the time perfectly, though. He'd grown up in Little Rock and spent his early adulthood in Tennessee, and both locations showed up for him. 

This time around, the heat map did pinpoint me as more Upper South, with boundaries moving into Missouri and Kentucky and Maryland, which is fair enough, but it pegged locations for me as Columbus, Georgia, and Louisville and Lexington. I've only ever driven through both states.

I think I throw these for a loop because my vocabulary is an accurate reflection of the fact I am originally from Appalachian North Carolina and spent most of my life in the Ozarks. But the way I pronounce things is much more neutral and harder to peg to a specific location. Part of that is having a master's in English, so I do things like distinguish between a pin and a pen in speech because I learned them in school, but even as a kid I never had a pronounced accent like the rest of my family. As an adult, I have had people try to hit on me by asking me where I was from ("You're obviously not from around here" one of them started with), and they always get so puzzled when I'm like "But I am from here?" LOLOL 

Edited Wednesday at 05:23 AM by Zella

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, Bastet said:

…for many of them two or more responses applied equally for me, but you can usually only pick one (a couple of them have "both" options).…

This was very annoying for me. Especially pajamas. 
Same as not always having the None option. 

I have no idea what they call roads with high speed limits where I've been living for that last 4 years, because, for example, when the local weatherman (who is not from around here either) refers to the "Throughway," I assume it's specific to one of the numbered roads/highways around here, or else he'd give it a number. 
I have noticed "freeway" is not used here, even though there are some toll roads.
BTW, I don't think "road" was an option. It's not letting me go back.

 

On the outside chance that someone is keeping score: 
Birth - 10: north East Coast
10 - 20: Illinois, half Chicago, half Central (very different dialects and accents)
20 - 23: BC Canada
a year back in Central IL.
25 - 48: Northern CA
48-68: 30 miles north of Chicago
68-71+: Rochester, NY

Okay.
I just retook it, and I swear🤚 there were questions that weren't there the first time??? The links and software seem a bit buggy. They ought to redo it.

Regardless, it was more accurate the 2nd time.
The first time it had Baltimore for one of my cities, and I've never been near there, and it named a city in Arizona, where I've never lived, and barely had anything showing in California.
This time 2 cities listed were the major metro areas of the places I lived until age 10: NYC and Philly.
The 3rd was Stockton, which I've never been to, but I guess it is sort of a cultural cross between the places in California where I lived for 20 years with 3 kids.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/dialect-quiz-map.html?r=8202043100000j404810040400008100820l00801000090400

[SoMuchTV]

18 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I just retook it, and I swear🤚 there were questions that weren't there the first time??? The links and software seem a bit buggy. They ought to redo it.

If it’s the same quiz I’m thinking of, I remember taking it multiple times over the years, and there were some different questions. They seem to rotate some of them. I thought that was on purpose. 

[Lugal]

The quiz was accurate that I'm originally from the Northeast, but it placed me in Newark, a city I've never been to.  A lot of the word choices are ones I've used interchangeably for years.  I came from Southeastern Pennsylvania but not Philly, so there are a few dialect quirks I've known that they had no questions for.

But being the kind of person I am, I took it a second time for those interchangeable words, and some of the questions are different and in a different order.  Sneakers seems to be the main word they went by because that still places me in Newark (Even though it that was what they were called where I grew up too), but because I pronounce /cot/ and /caught/ differently (which I answered the first time) it placed me in Baltimore, which is a little more accurate.

So, I would say take it with a grain of salt.

Something we may find more interesting is the International Dialects of English Archive (IDEA)

https://www.dialectsarchive.com/

And they accept submissions

[Browncoat]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I have no idea what they call roads with high speed limits where I've been living for that last 4 years, because, for example, when the local weatherman (who is not from around here either) refers to the "Throughway," I assume it's specific to one of the numbered roads/highways around here, or else he'd give it a number. 
I have noticed "freeway" is not used here, even though there are some toll roads.
BTW, I don't think "road" was an option. It's not letting me go back.

There was an option for "other" which is what I chose.  We call those roads interstates.  Where I grew up, there's only one four-lane highway (max speed limit is 55), and it's called "the four-lane."

[fairffaxx]

I lived in a tiny town in NH for a year in the early '70s & I-93 was the only interstate highway through the state at that time (probably still is).  The locals referred to it as "out on the superhighway".

[shapeshifter]

13 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

I lived in a tiny town in NH for a year in the early '70s & I-93 was the only interstate highway through the state at that time (probably still is).  The locals referred to it as "out on the superhighway".

I probably shouldn't laugh since that was before MADD and seatbelts, when speeds were lethal, including to a cousin and 3 other young men I knew from high school.

I guess I'm just amused by the moniker, suggesting to me a place where comic book superheroes flew by.

But "superhighway" was likely used elsewhere too, else how did the internet's early nickname of the Information Superhighway come to be?
Oh. Perhaps I've put the lexical cart before the horse: wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_superhighway

 

 

1 hour ago, Lugal said:

Something we may find more interesting is the International Dialects of English Archive (IDEA)

https://www.dialectsarchive.com/

And they accept submissions

Just a quick peek inside yielded "autoroute" instead of "highway."

[ABay]

@shapeshifter the Thruway is  Interstate 90 and runs from the Mass Turnpike west to Buffalo and then south to the PA line. I can't speak to Rochester roads but some state or county routes will be called by local names like the Kensington in Buffalo or the Parkway in CT, although they have numbers on the map (33 and 15). Others will be "the" like the 290 or the 190. Those are usually part of the interstate system. State routes 5 and 20 run east to west across the state but are often Main St in the towns they pass through.

I join the chorus of complaint about having to choose one answer on some of the questions. Yard sale and garage sale are interchangeable, etc. The test did get me mostly right. I guess the light red Michigan and Cleveland are from northwest Ohio. Apparently nothing from CT has stuck.

[fairffaxx]

This is very far from my biggest grammatical pet peeve, but I find myself noticing it lately (perhaps due to its constant repetition, which is equally annoying):   "I feel like ...".

Not only should it be "I feel as if" or "I feel as though", but this phrase seems to be applied to pretty much everything, whereas most of the objects cited are not properly subject to feelings.  I'm reminded of my law school teacher in Contracts 101 lecturing that we should never refer to our feelings:  No one cares about how you feel, only your legal analysis matters -- never say "I feel" when you could say "I think"!

 

[SoMuchTV]

11 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

This is very far from my biggest grammatical pet peeve, but I find myself noticing it lately (perhaps due to its constant repetition, which is equally annoying):   "I feel like ...".

Not only should it be "I feel as if" or "I feel as though", but this phrase seems to be applied to pretty much everything, whereas most of the objects cited are not properly subject to feelings.  I'm reminded of my law school teacher in Contracts 101 lecturing that we should never refer to our feelings:  No one cares about how you feel, only your legal analysis matters -- never say "I feel" when you could say "I think"!

 

I feel like you’re overthinking this. Sorry, I’ll see myself out. 

[Quof]

This peeve is more of a word choice issue, rather than a grammar issue:

Why do parents say "my child is special needs" or "my special needs child"?  Surely the child has special needs. They would never say "my child is asthma" or "my diabetes child." 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Quof said:

…Why do parents say…"my special needs child"?…They would never say …"my diabetes child." 

They could and do say “my diabetic child,” but there’s no adjective form of the term “special needs.”🤷🏼‍♀️

Edited Friday at 11:17 AM by shapeshifter

[EtheltoTillie]

4 hours ago, Quof said:

This peeve is more of a word choice issue, rather than a grammar issue:

Why do parents say "my child is special needs" or "my special needs child"?  Surely the child has special needs. They would never say "my child is asthma" or "my diabetes child." 

It’s short for “my child is a special needs child.”  It’s become a weird idiom. 

[MaryMitch]

For families with special needs children, and for teachers and other organizations dealing with them, "special needs" is a description, like saying "my child is tall" or "my child is diabetic".  It's pretty common.

[Browncoat]

I just finished a novel by Lisa Genova, called "More or Less Maddy."  The title character is diagnosed with Bipolar 1, and she goes into a whole riff about whether she is Bipolar 1 or has Bipolar 1.  It's a good story, but can be a tough read at times.

[ginger90]

Whichever description is used, my child, or the child, should always be first in the sentence. That’s a peeve of mine. 

[nokat]

On 2/22/2025 at 11:22 AM, Quof said:

When discussing family circumstances, I recently said "I'm the younger child."  I got some puzzled looks.  "I have an older sibling."  More confusion.   "My parents had 2 children.   I'm the second of 2 children" 

Finally, someone said "So you're the youngest!"

"Nope!" I replied.

They were well and truly confused.

 

There is the "So" at the start of a sentence. I use it myself.

[fairffaxx]

Controversy in Calif over closing part of a road to cars & trucks, making it available only to bikes & foot traffic.  Or, as someone put it on tonight's TV news show:  "The most extensive pedestrianization project to date".  

I know that my priorities may be considered misplaced, but I find it impossible to focus on substantive issues surrounding road closures when I'm confronted by such blatant assaults on grammar! 🙀

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

Controversy in Calif over closing part of a road to cars & trucks, making it available only to bikes & foot traffic.  Or, as someone put it on tonight's TV news show:  "The most extensive pedestrianization project to date".  

I know that my priorities may be considered misplaced, but I find it impossible to focus on substantive issues surrounding road closures when I'm confronted by such blatant assaults on grammar! 🙀

—whereas I am just hoping a newscaster invited someone on camera with them to say "pedestrianization project" quickly 3 times.

[fairffaxx]

It takes 2 -- 1 to write what's on the teleprompter & 1 to read it.  To his credit, the reporter didn't stutter or even hesitate -- I hate to think that the "word" is familiar to everyone (or even anyone) except me.

[Mondrianyone]

Per Merriam-Webster's Unabridged, it's a legitimate word:

pe·des·tri·an·ize verb \ -ˌnīz \

inflected form(s): -ed/-ing/-s

intransitive verb

: to do some walking : go afoot

transitive verb

: to convert (as a street) into a walkway or mall

pe·des·tri·an·iza·tion \ pə̇ˌdestrēənə̇ˈzāshən , -ˌnīˈz- \ noun, plural -s

 

 

[fairffaxx]

Good grief -- this is one of those WWWST! (what would Wm Safire think!) moments.  But I sure as hell refuse to ever use it (not that I could pronounce it, of course)!

[Lugal]

22 hours ago, nokat said:

There is the "So" at the start of a sentence. I use it myself.

In his translation of Beowulf, Seamus Heaney chose to use "So" for the first word of the poem Hwæt (which is often translated as Lo!, Hark! or Listen!) because, as he puts it:

Quote

"so" operates as an expression which obliterates all previous discourse and narrative, and at the same time functions as an exclamation calling for immediate attention.

[Mondrianyone]

49 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

what would Wm Safire think!

You could've asked him while he was alive. The word's been in use since 1964.

[fairffaxx]

Not in the circles I move in, thank goodness!

[nokat]

Can someone explain the use of "woah" instead of "whoa?" For some reason it bothers me every time I see it.

[Browncoat]

25 minutes ago, nokat said:

Can someone explain the use of "woah" instead of "whoa?" For some reason it bothers me every time I see it.

It bothers you because it is wrong.  It's used by people who know "whoa" has an h, but don't know where it goes.  

[ABay]

I understand that some things that irritate me, like like being like used like every like other like word, or so at the beginning of every, like, sentence and SO on might have been around since god was young. But that doesn't make them any less irritating.

[shapeshifter]

Spoiler

Perhaps because my 5th grade class was 800 miles northwest of my 4th grade school, I don't recall ever being formally taught about split infinitives. 
Is this wrong:
…he'd just heard of…

Would it likely make sense to English readers from other parts of the world, including Oceania, the UK, and Canada?
How about ESL readers?

Note:
Only for reasons of format and meter, I'd rather not use:
…he had just heard of…

It's just a public comment area, so it's not like I'm getting paid to be correct,
still…

Never mind.
I reworded it.

Edited 10 hours ago by shapeshifter

[StatisticalOutlier]

6 hours ago, Lugal said:

"so" operates as an expression which obliterates all previous discourse and narrative, and at the same time functions as an exclamation calling for immediate attention.

But keep in mind that the writer doesn't know the difference between "that" and "which."