Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Milburn Stone]

On 7/30/2024 at 2:51 PM, Mondrianyone said:

It's called a double genitive, and it's been an acceptable usage in English forever.

That rule supports

The shirt is a friend of mine's.

Which at least is a relatively graceful sentence, if one must avoid (for some reason) the simpler

It's my friend's shirt.

If the rule supports

It's a friend of mine's shirt,

which it might, then the sentence should be rejected simply on the grounds of being horrible.

 

 

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

The shirt is a friend of mine's.

🤔
"The shirt is a friend…"?
"…of mine's"???
🧐
That's my friend's shirt.

 

[Mondrianyone]

55 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

That rule supports

The shirt is a friend of mine's.

. . ., etc.

Well, then I guess you'll just have to take it up with Merriam-Webster. And Geoffrey Chaucer. And close to a thousand years' worth of native English speakers.

[Quof]

Taylor Swift's singing is "accepted".  It still makes me want to stick daggers in my ears.  

[Sandman]

On 10/12/2023 at 7:11 PM, Browncoat said:

My local news seems to think that people are using goats to get rid of "evasive" plants that are outgrowing the native plants.

Sounds like those goats are going to have to stay sharp!

[fairffaxx]

Fortunately, goats are smarter than most humans I've met, so I think they're up to the task.

[meep.meep]

And they're pretty fast which is what you need with evasive plants.

Speeking of E's, I am plagued by commercials for some singles club where it sounds like the name is "Events and Edventures"

[Milburn Stone]

21 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

Well, then I guess you'll just have to take it up with Merriam-Webster. And Geoffrey Chaucer. And close to a thousand years' worth of native English speakers.

Deal. Where do I find them?

[Anela]

Wrong thread.  

Edited August 3 by Anela

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, Anela said:

My cat’s blood count is up into safe numbers.  We checked his blood again today, and he got a B12 shot.  We have B12 pills to give him, too. 

Oops, wrong thread, but please post in Pets and keep us updated; those B12 shots can work wonders with a variety of conditions, so hopefully he continues to improve.

[Anela]

1 minute ago, Bastet said:

Oops, wrong thread, but please post in Pets and keep us updated; those B12 shots can work wonders with a variety of conditions, so hopefully he continues to improve.

Thank you, I will. :) he had a few of them, Spring 2023, and again last November.  They turned him around, both times.  They said he had something going on with his liver, but they didn’t know what it was.  

[shapeshifter]

Upon learning dark chocolate is contaminated with lead, I simply posted:

• What next?

But now I'm wondering if it should be:

• What's next?

…even though "What next?" (without the 's for the verb "is") is short for something like:

• What could possibly go wrong next?

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Upon learning dark chocolate is contaminated with lead, I simply posted:

• What next?

But now I'm wondering if it should be:

• What's next?

…even though "What next?" (without the 's for the verb "is") is short for something like:

• What could possibly go wrong next?

I think both are equally correct. And they both have two meanings, two meanings that are so related that whichever way the reader interprets them, they are consonant with your meaning. Meaning 1: What will be the next poison discovered in dark chocolate? Meaning 2: What will be the next food formerly considered benign that we now know to be poison?

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think both are equally correct. And they both have two meanings, two meanings that are so related that whichever way the reader interprets them, they are consonant with your meaning. Meaning 1: What will be the next poison discovered in dark chocolate? Meaning 2: What will be the next food formerly considered benign that we now know to be poison?

Thanks, but are you saying I shouldn't be concerned about the lack of a verb in "What next"?

[SVNBob]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Thanks, but are you saying I shouldn't be concerned about the lack of a verb in "What next"?

Not really.  After all, where is the verb in "Holy Crap!"?  That's a perfectly valid and understandable sentence.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Thanks, but are you saying I shouldn't be concerned about the lack of a verb in "What next"?

4 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Not really.  After all, where is the verb in "Holy Crap!"?  That's a perfectly valid and understandable sentence.

To me, "Holy Crap!" (or just "Crap!" as I declared yesterday) is more like an interjection, with "What next" seeming like a bastardization of the exclamation "What's next?" or "What is next?"

But Master Class gives an example that agrees with you and uses "what" in the same manner of my example of "What next?" :
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/exclamatory-sentence-guide

Quote

2. “Yikes, what a terrible movie!” This example uses an interjection followed by a comma as well as the exclamatory pronoun “what” to convey disappointment about a film.

Googling "What's next" and then "What next" is…interesting?

I wish I could ask my perfectly grammatical Mom's take on it, but, in this case, she'd likely just smile and shrug, like when I caught her using "y'all," which I took to mean it was okay in casual language.
 

 

[Milburn Stone]

There are many many examples of complete sentences in which a missing word or two is so universally understood to be implicit that the sentences are judged to be grammatical. Wish I could think of one. (There, you see? The missing word at the beginning of the sentence is "I." But the sentence is completely acceptable.) In "What next?" the missing words in the middle are "will be," but those words are so understood that the sentence would not be out of place even in formal writing.

Edited August 6 by Milburn Stone

[Ancaster]

On 8/1/2024 at 3:18 PM, Quof said:

Taylor Swift's singing is "accepted".  It still makes me want to stick daggers in my ears.  

I think I need some context here.  Is it not accepted by certain people?

[ABay]

Interjections! Show Excitement! Or emotion!

 

[Quof]

16 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I think I need some context here.  Is it not accepted by certain people?

Yes, by me.  I am firmly opposed to Taylor Swift's music and wish I didn't have to hear it everywhere, all the time.  

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, ABay said:

Interjections! Show Excitement! Or emotion!

 

Hah!
But some dated (1974) social interactions.
And the post-flu flu shot was wrong?
I bet a good AI programmer person could update it nicely and slickly.

[Ancaster]

1 hour ago, Quof said:

Yes, by me.  I am firmly opposed to Taylor Swift's music and wish I didn't have to hear it everywhere, all the time.  

I'm still not understanding the original issue.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I'm still not understanding the original issue.

Ditto. 
I know of Taylor Swift, but do not know her music. 
Googling finds:
Taylor Swift "ACCEPTANCE" (5 Stages of Grief) Song Playlist with Lyrics:
youtu.be/WGO36F0ES5o

I did a search of the transcript and do not see the word "acceptance" in any of the lyrics.
Interesting? 

If I were younger, I'd play her music while I painted sad portraits.

If there were any grammatical errors, I didn't notice, which says something, although I'm not sure what.

[fairffaxx]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I know of Taylor Swift, but do not know her music. 

Lucky you.  The pet supply shops & discount grocery stores I frequent play her stuff CONSTANTLY & it grates.

[Ancaster]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Ditto. 
I know of Taylor Swift, but do not know her music. 
Googling finds:
Taylor Swift "ACCEPTANCE" (5 Stages of Grief) Song Playlist with Lyrics:
youtu.be/WGO36F0ES5o

 

Thank you for taking one for the (elderly) team.

[ebk57]

At the risk of sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, I read @Quof's Taylor Swift comment as referencing the acceptance of the grammar issue being discussed before.  It doesn't sound right to them, as Taylor Swift's music doesn't sound right, but everyone else accepts it. 

At least that was my interpretation of it. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

39 minutes ago, fairffaxx said:

Lucky you.  The pet supply shops & discount grocery stores I frequent play her stuff CONSTANTLY & it grates.

How do you know it's her?  I'm assuming I hear Taylor Swift songs when I'm out and about, and I'm sure they're played in my pilates classes, but I don't know what any of them sound like.

[shapeshifter]

45 minutes ago, ebk57 said:

At the risk of sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, I read @Quof's Taylor Swift comment as referencing the acceptance of the grammar issue being discussed before.  It doesn't sound right to them, as Taylor Swift's music doesn't sound right, but everyone else accepts it. 

At least that was my interpretation of it. 

Oooooooh!
(👆interjection)

[fairffaxx]

13 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

How do you know it's her?

They announce the "artist" before & after each selection.  

[Quof]

56 minutes ago, ebk57 said:

At least that was my interpretation of it. 

Thank you.  You got it in one.  

[Milburn Stone]

Could someone summarize the grammatical issue at stake? (I.e., not refer me to a song or something Taylor Swift said, but to what was wrong with it.)

[StatisticalOutlier]

14 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

They announce the "artist" before & after each selection.  

Aah, none of the places I go to have those announcements.  That's probably because I would refuse to go places that have them; I tolerate "muzak" but I can't stand radio-style talking between songs.

So I'm sure I've heard a ton of Taylor Swift songs but I don't know that's what they are.  I understand she's pretty talented--maybe hers are the ones that don't sound autotuned?

[Browncoat]

I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

Thank you for making me laugh.😄

[Quof]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause. 

I guess that Depends on the reason. 

[SweetieDarling]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

Was he a plumber?

[annzeepark914]

On 8/8/2024 at 12:09 PM, Browncoat said:

I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

That *had* to be "autocorrupt", right? 😏

[shapeshifter]

Is "Take a listen" grammatically incorrect, or…?

[SVNBob]

On 8/6/2024 at 9:53 AM, Milburn Stone said:

There are many many examples of complete sentences in which a missing word or two is so universally understood to be implicit that the sentences are judged to be grammatical. Wish I could think of one. (There, you see? The missing word at the beginning of the sentence is "I." But the sentence is completely acceptable.) In "What next?" the missing words in the middle are "will be," but those words are so understood that the sentence would not be out of place even in formal writing.

I was trying to think of one as well; mainly one without a verb as that would have been more germane to the topic.  That's quite a bit harder to come up with than sentences without a subject.  Seems like it's mainly interjections.

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is "Take a listen" grammatically incorrect, or…?

It's grammatically fine.  "Listen" has a secondary definition as a noun; meaning an act of listening.  So it is an "object" one can "take", much like a look.

[Milburn Stone]

8 hours ago, SVNBob said:

I was trying to think of one as well; mainly one without a verb as that would have been more germane to the topic.  That's quite a bit harder to come up with than sentences without a subject.  Seems like it's mainly interjections.

Would this qualify as a grammatical sentence without a verb? You, over there!  If the context is "hey you, listen up," the missing words are "who are"--"You, who are over there!"; if the context is a command to move from one place to another, the missing words are "whose position in space I want to change"--"You, whose position in space I want to change--go over there!" 

[Ancaster]

"cuz"

"nuff" said.

[shapeshifter]

From Grammar's coworker, Spelling:

Edited August 14 by shapeshifter

[EtheltoTillie]

May I make a related question about this?  Why do we have to use tongs to pick up breads when over in the fruit and vegetable aisle you don’t have to do that?  Well maybe because you can’t wash bread. I guess that’s the answer. 

[Anduin]

Not so much grammar, but a phrase. I came across a mention of e-ticket in an old comic. Searching for this only brings up the modern type, electronic ticket. I get that it means premium, but what's the actual origin?

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

Not so much grammar, but a phrase. I came across a mention of e-ticket in an old comic. Searching for this only brings up the modern type, electronic ticket. I get that it means premium, but what's the actual origin?

Apparently it was a Disneyland invention: wikipedia.org/wiki/E_ticket

The OED more or less concurs: 
“E Ticket, N. (1).” Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford UP, July 2023, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/8848596358.

Quote

1974
I have a golf cart that I use to drive around the yard... I call it my ‘E’ ticket ride, a la Disneyland.
San Mateo (California) Times 28 April (Family Weekly section) 6/7

1983
Like any other astronaut after his or her first ascent into orbit, Dr. Ride sought to give expression to the thrill of a first flight. ‘Have you ever been to Disneyland?.. This is definitely an E ticket.’
New York Times 19 June 20/2

 

[SoMuchTV]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

Not so much grammar, but a phrase. I came across a mention of e-ticket in an old comic. Searching for this only brings up the modern type, electronic ticket. I get that it means premium, but what's the actual origin?

 

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Apparently it was a Disneyland invention: wikipedia.org/wiki/E_ticket

The OED more or less concurs: 
“E Ticket, N. (1).” Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford UP, July 2023, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/8848596358.

 

Yep I remember those! My first trip to WDW was probably late 1970s. They gave you a book of physical tickets with values A through E. Lots of A’s, which were probably good for stuff like the Small World ride. Very limited number of E’s for the good stuff. 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Apparently it was a Disneyland invention: wikipedia.org/wiki/E_ticket

The OED more or less concurs: 
“E Ticket, N. (1).” Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford UP, July 2023, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/8848596358.

 

 

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

 

Yep I remember those! My first trip to WDW was probably late 1970s. They gave you a book of physical tickets with values A through E. Lots of A’s, which were probably good for stuff like the Small World ride. Very limited number of E’s for the good stuff. 

Thank you both! Very interesting. :)

[Milburn Stone]

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

From Grammar's coworker, Spelling:

Points for spelling tongues correctly though!

7 hours ago, Anduin said:

Not so much grammar, but a phrase. I came across a mention of e-ticket in an old comic. Searching for this only brings up the modern type, electronic ticket. I get that it means premium, but what's the actual origin?

Forgive me bringing this in, but a nice memory for me is creating for United Airlines the print and television mini-campaign that introduced e-tickets to the world.

[meep.meep]

13 hours ago, Anduin said:

Not so much grammar, but a phrase. I came across a mention of e-ticket in an old comic. Searching for this only brings up the modern type, electronic ticket. I get that it means premium, but what's the actual origin?

As mentioned above - Disneyland.  They had different priced tickets based on how good the rides were.  The E Tickets were the most expensive.

Sally Ride the astronaut described her space voyage as "better than an E Ticket ride!"

[Ancaster]

4 hours ago, meep.meep said:

As mentioned above - Disneyland.  They had different priced tickets based on how good the rides were.  The E Tickets were the most expensive.

Sally Ride the astronaut described her space voyage as "better than an E Ticket ride!"

I should hope so.  It's a pretty sad world that anyone, certainly not an astronaut, would even make that comparison.  I think I would have had to shoot myself if she'd said "As good as".

Maybe it was tongue in cheek, but given the inexplicable (to me) obsession some American adults have with Disney, maybe not.

Edited August 16 by Ancaster