S03.E09: Part Nine - Vox

[Glade]

I found it unbelievable that Seven wasn't included/consulted for that entire first part of the episode that concerned the borg/Jack; something she is an expert on and someone she connected with earlier int he season.  She really should have been brought in the room when the TNG cast were discussing/investigating Jack's genetics.   We also had scant references to Jurati borg from last season or the borg cube that Seven was briefly the queen of back in S1; and it's more disarming that Jurati's alt-borg wasn't mentioned because they use her same 'black-vein' method of assimilation.  And I guess they couldn't budget in having Alice Krige or anyone else to play the borg queen, so she's just a silhouette?  I really hope Seven gets some development/time next episode, and her and Raffi get some sort of meaningful exchange as well.  Because this felt less than promising.  At least if the villain was the Pah-wraith's, that would be more of an excuse to bring Ezri in so Worf could get a Dax moment next episode which now seems very unlikely.  Ditto with Janeway or a real borg queen.  Sigh...

[AllyB]

My feelings are similar to most people's. The episode was deeply flawed to the point that the plot was pretty stupid. I did enjoy the OG crew on Enterprise D however it was clearly tonally very, very off given what was happening. If they had all been present when they first arrived at the fleet museum and transferred from the Titan to the E-D, at that point when things were tense but not utterly devastating, it would have been genuinely great. Instead it was hard to be fully immersed in it when there was just no way those characters would have acted like that in that moment. When Deanna spoke to Geordi about his daughters it was sooo irritating that she had no concern for her own.

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that a few minutes of research could have easily sorted out one of the episodes bigger bugbears. There really is no way on earth that the majority of crew on most ships are under 25. I know most ST shows focus on high level crew, the cream of the crop, but it's always been pretty implicit that Starfleet personnel are highly educated, doctors, scientists, engineers with practical mechanical expertise or experts in law, political theory and diplomacy in addition to their Starfleet training. They aren't getting on ships at 21 and taking over most positions over the next 4 years, then moving on to stationary roles. They just aren't. So why didn't the writers just take 10 minutes to google mid-life decline. Then have Beverly say something like, the new transporter DNA changes only work in people with full Glutathione levels which decline rapidly after age 45. And then you very believably have enough Borg crew to swiftly take over most ships while leaving all the main cast be comfortably too old to be assimilated.

[greekmom]

One other thing that bothers me about this episode and the Borg in particular.

The Borg in history NEVER did a sneak attack (to use Appa's phrase from Kim's Convivence).  The Borg just attacked worlds to assimilate so they can add the distinctiveness to their collective.  Even with the war with species 8472, they were losing that war and still they didn't sneak attack. They just kept on and were still "banging their head against a wall."    It took Janeway and crew's sneak attack of the weapon to call a cease fire.

So why now the change in the Borg's M.O.?  They have already many humans in their collective and many other Federation citizens including Romulans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Klingons, etc.  So why this sneak attack with this sleeper virus for goodness knows how long in the transporters?  And why the alliance with the rogue Changelings?  It really does not make sense.  Just because they found Jack is a receiver?  And? Alot of ex borgs would hear the "voices" after leaving the collective.  

Lastly, didn't the Doctor from Voyager create a serum that assisted Janeway, Tuvok, and Belanna to keep their identities after being assimilated (Unimatrix Zero episodes). So what happened to that?  And why wasn't it used as a vaccine at least for Federation citizens to combat the possibility of being assimilated? 

Like i said, useless writing. They could have googled all of this.

Edited April 14, 2023 by greekmom

[dovegrey]

The new change in the Borg MO and this specific attack would make more sense if Queen Agnes was involved, or even if she had been re-assimilated by the regular Borg and caused a change. Or possibly if this is a sort of offensive retaliation for what Janeway did at the end of Voyager, which was more significant than taking out a few cubes. The Borg Queens strike me as fairly human-like in their interactions and nothing I’ve seen of them rules out this level of plotting or covert attack. As it is, though, the Borg would certainly want to assimilate a species that had developed as far as the Federation had by the end of Voyager (with shields the Borg couldn’t penetrate, weapons that one-shotted cubes, and a virus that destroyed an entire transwarp hub, IIRC). They clearly can’t assimilate them the old fashioned way, so they adapted, which is very much what the Borg do.

Speaking of Endgame… if Janeway can go back in time to change the entire timeline to save Seven (and apparently possibly result in the end of the Federation oops), what is stopping them from time traveling to fix all this? Hell, even Chakotay and Harry figured out how to send a message back in time to save Voyager. Funny how that works. 

[Francie]

Now that my anger and frustration regarding the bad writing and waste of talent and opportunity has subsided a bit, I can say this:

Hearing Magel's voice as the computer affected me. I felt like Kendall Roy talking to his father:

I loved it, but I can't forgive this show. 

[marinw]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:14 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I was already done when they killed Elizabeth Shelby.

I'm pretty sure that Shelby was a Changelling.

Soooo....the seniors officers are Changelings and the younger crew are all Organically Borged? Ok then. It's time for some over twenty five year olds (or whatever the age is for non-humans) lieutenants and ensigns to save the day. Beckett Mariner to the rescue!

Edited April 15, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

45 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

Speaking of Endgame… if Janeway can go back in time to change the entire timeline to save Seven

From the Borg perspective... why not use the First Contact  plan and kill Zefram Cochrane? Easier than installing a transporter virus...

[marinw]

57 minutes ago, paigow said:

From the Borg perspective... why not use the First Contact  plan and kill Zefram Cochrane? Easier than installing a transporter virus...

Going back in time to change the past is cheating, IMO. It's been done so many times in the Trek Universe that space-time must be pure swiss cheese by now.

[cambridgeguy]

10 minutes ago, marinw said:

Going back in time to change the past is cheating, IMO. It's been done so many times in the Trek Universe that space-time must be pure swiss cheese by now.

The Department of Temporal Investigations would just shake their heads at such an outlandish suggestion. 

[Starchild]

6 hours ago, Glade said:

I really hope Seven gets some development/time next episode

She's captain of the Titan now. Spinoff! I would watch

[marinw]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:39 AM, Starchild said:

She's captain of the Titan now. Spinoff! I would watch

There goes the Captian Shaw spinoff😪 He went from complete asshat to someone I kinda liked. The Titan has two people on it! I guess that would make Raffi Seven's First Officer.

Edited April 15, 2023 by marinw

[Artsda]

That ending really was great, totally made me nostalgic. I loved seeing them all walk onto their ship and it looking the same.

[paigow]

47 minutes ago, Starchild said:

She's captain of the Titan now. Spinoff! I would watch

Captain Bligh... Her crew is dead / mutinous drones

[Nerfect Drifty]

On 4/13/2023 at 8:29 AM, Francie said:

The content has to be good, and stay good, to keep them. One may have to go to the effort of unsubscribing, but it's not like it's as onerous as getting out of a gym membership.

I think you underestimate the strength of forgetfulness and inertia among consumers.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Nerfect Drifty said:

I think you underestimate the strength of forgetfulness and inertia among consumers.

You're probably right. I can see the motto now:

Paramount+. We can bait and switch you because you won't switch off the channel. #lazy #forgetful

 

 

[PurpleTentacle]

19 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Wesley wasn’t the only kid on the bridge. 

Chekov was 21 or 22 in TOS and 17 in the Kelvin universe and working on the bridge both times.

James Kirk in the Kelvin universe, of course, (ridiculously) becomes captain of the Enterprise at the grand old age of 25.

Harry Kim was supposed to be in his very early twenties and randomly also a highly trained musical genius. 

Hoshi Sato was a languages prodigy who was also meant to be around 22, if I remember correctly. 

Doctor Bashir was made the chief medical officer of DS9 at the frankly ancient age of 27.

So the idea that young people with a special gift get rapidly trained, promoted and put on the bridge has historical precedent.

All this is very silly, but it isn’t that weird. 

First of all we don't talk about the Kelvin timeline.

Second Checkov was supposed to be 22? Man living in the future must be rough.

Still seems very rare and not like the under 25 year olds would have the numbers to take over the fleet.

18 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Ah, I should have known.  Only two episodes left for this season/series and they were going to find some way to bring the Borg back into the fold.  I get that they are an iconic Trek villain and certainly have a major connection to Picard himself (not to mention Seven), but it seems a little too coy to have them the masterminds after-all.  And I'm still unsure about what the Changelings involvement is.  Were they already assimilated or did they just want to work with the Borg on their own accord?  Felt like I missed that explanation.

I know the Borg are iconic, but I could really do with never seeing them again. They were already way overused by the time Voyager ended and there is nothing interesting or scary left about them.

At this point I think the Ferengi would make for a more credible villain.

18 hours ago, Cattoy said:

Get a clue Hollywood. When people watch a show or movie, they want to be able to watch the show or movie, not listen to sounds set to vague shadowy movement.

I'm in the minority and don't even mind moody lighting... if it makes sense. Which it doesn't here. This is a Star Ship, not a cofin.

Also don't cheap out on the Bitrate of the codec you are using, so all you can see in dark scenes is big fat blocks of varying shades of dark gray. Streaming services are all really crap about this one.

16 hours ago, paigow said:

Those under 25 would comprise the majority of the crew... so the odds of a successful mutiny are better...

Why would that be the case?

16 hours ago, KeithJ said:

Geordi said that the Enterprise was the only ship not connected to the Starfleet mainframe.  One question, why would any of the ships at the museum be connected to the mainframe?  They were all decommissioned long before this weren't they?  Would have loved to see Janeway meet them there and take Voyager back out with them.

Better explaination would have been that the Enterprise D still had weapons since Geordi was still restoring it and all the other ships were striped of theirs.

Then again, they left a fully functioning cloaking device in one of the ships, so maybe the Defiant is still stocked with phasers and photon torpedos and would have been the best choice.

5 hours ago, marinw said:

I'm pretty sure that Shelby was a Changelling.

If so that Changeling is a very good actor, because she sure looked surprised and terrified. (apart from the fact that there wouldn't have been any reason to keep up the ruse at that point)

[marinw]

1 minute ago, PurpleTentacle said:

If so that Changeling is a very good actor, because she sure looked surprised and terrified. (apart from the fact that there wouldn't have been any reason to keep up the ruse at that point)

This is what confuses me: why take over some senior people and not others? Shelby by this point is (was?) a powerful admirial with the entire friggin fleet at her command. That's the first person the Changelings would go after.

 

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

This is what confuses me: why take over some senior people and not others? Shelby by this point is (was?) a powerful admirial with the entire friggin fleet at her command. That's the first person the Changelings would go after.

It might just be too hard to get to her. It's fine. It's slightly dumb, but this show has way bigger problems.

[greekmom]

7 hours ago, marinw said:

I'm pretty sure that Shelby was a Changelling.

Soooo....the seniors officers are Changellings and the younger crew are all Organically Borged? Ok then. It's time for some over twenty five year olds (or whatever the age is for non-humans) lieutenants and ensigns to save the day. Mariner Beckett to the rescue!

At first I thought the same but a) why would the Borg kill the Changeling if they have an alliance and b) if she was a Changeling, they would have her either a) morph into goo to get away or b) say something like: "I thought we had an agreement!"  

If Mariner Beckett and Boilmer show up (remember Boilmer got the best score in the Borg simulation!), it would totally redeem the show. 

[PurpleTentacle]

17 minutes ago, greekmom said:

If Mariner Beckett and Boilmer show up (remember Boilmer got the best score in the Borg simulation!), it would totally redeem the show. 

Just have it be one of their Holo-movies. Then everything would suddenly make total sense, in that it doesn't have to make sense, because the computer is trying to adapt as they go off script and is doing it badly. Like with the KI TY HA.

Also would make sense why everything is so dark, because it's more cinematic. And all the memberberries, because they are pretty big fanboys of the TNG Enterprise and Crew.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I know the Borg are iconic, but I could really do with never seeing them again. They were already way overused by the time Voyager ended and there is nothing interesting or scary left about them.

At this point I think the Ferengi would make for a more credible villain.

With Rom as Grand Nagus? The Ferengi might be true communists by now.

14 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Just have it be one of their Holo-movies. Then everything would suddenly make total sense, in that it doesn't have to make sense, because the computer is trying to adapt as they go off script and is doing it badly. Like with the KI TY HA.

Also would make sense why everything is so dark, because it's more cinematic. And all the memberberries, because they are pretty big fanboys of the TNG Enterprise and Crew.

Wait are you suggesting PIC goes the ENT route and has their finale be a simulation inside another show? Haha that would track.

[PurpleTentacle]

1 minute ago, Starchild said:

With Rom as Grand Nagus? The Ferengi might be true communists by now.

That's how far the Borg have fallen.

1 minute ago, Starchild said:

Wait are you suggesting PIC goes the ENT route and has their finale be a simulation inside another show? Haha that would track.

I was thinking about that, when I wrote my post. But as sad as it is, that would be a massive improvement at this point.

I'm for going full camp at this point. Have this be a Holo movie. Have the Borg Queen do all this just because she wants Data's attention. Have it turn out that the DNA wasn't actually Borg, but a sign from god. Have Jack be Q's son. Fuck it all!

[KittenPokerCheater]

19 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I was never able to get into DS9, so  pah wraiths and more Changeling stuff and Founders and whatever was never going to be my personal jam, and so I was relieved that the show doesn’t seem to be going harder on the DS9 lore, but on the other hand, the Borg stuff is so played.

Yes- I thought DS9 got a little too military/soapy.  Definitely not my favorite Trek.

Jack may  be Picard's son, but he didn't get the brains. He didn't have any backup plan???    

And I truly hope Shaw makes a miraculous comeback.

[Prevailing Wind]

Or... they're going full-out to trash Roddenberry's vision and will have the Borg win. Considering the next ep. is called "The Last Generation" - we'll all be assimilated. It turns out, resistance IS futile.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Why would that be the case?

Assuming Starfleet has a basic pyramid structure like most navies/other organizations might have today, most ships would probably have more ensigns and lieutenants (i.e. the ranks where those under 25 might exist), then lt. commanders, commanders, and captains. 

To take TNG Enterprise for an example, 1 captain, 1 commander, 2-3 lt. commanders depending on when in the run we're talking, then a vast number of lieutenants and ensigns. The entire crew complement was about 1k. Some of the lieutenants and ensigns are going to be older than 25, but it's fair to think that more of them would be younger. And the ratio would probably favor the young on a non-flagship because there would be more transitions

[Starchild]

34 minutes ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Jack may  be Picard's son, but he didn't get the brains. He didn't have any backup plan???

Backup plan? He didn't have a plan at all. He had an anti-plan.

Why, when you know that something is about to go down in the next few hours and it has something to do with the enemy getting their hands on you, WHY would you go straight to them when you escaped. Why wouldn't you try to go anywhere else, at least until Frontier Day was over. 

Moron!

[dovegrey]

57 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Backup plan? He didn't have a plan at all. He had an anti-plan.

Why, when you know that something is about to go down in the next few hours and it has something to do with the enemy getting their hands on you, WHY would you go straight to them when you escaped. Why wouldn't you try to go anywhere else, at least until Frontier Day was over. 

Moron!

And this is where I have a problem with the casting of Ed Speelers. I just can't see him as 23-year-old, where I could be more forgiving of him doing something this stupid, impulsive, and short-sighted...after a counselor saw the deepest/scariest part of his mind then immediately ghosted him, right before his long-lost father told him he's dangerous and needs to be committed for the safety of everyone around him because *surprise* he's accidentally Borg. On paper, I could get on board with it. On screen, it didn't really work. (The poor pacing of the storyline didn't help, either. There was some good Locutus momentum when Shaw confronted Picard on the holodeck, but that feels like a long time ago; maybe it'll play better on binge.)

Speelers is a good actor IMO but this is not the role for him. And I don't really see why they even needed a Picard offspring to fulfill this role; maybe that will become more clear next week, maybe not. Picard finally finding closure and redemption re: Locutus/Wolf 359 would have been a fine way to end the series; he didn't need a son to do that, or compound the guilt he feels for BOBW.

[Cattoy]

Here's something that's been gnawing at me all day. Why did the Borg modify Picard? At the time, he was in his 60s. He was past the age most humans start families (even from what we've seen in the show.) They had access to his memories, so they know it would be unlikely he'd want to start a family.

Even if you buy the idea they could predict Picard, after the accidental death of his family, would want one of his own, there's no guarantee he'd find someone to start it with. The odds he'd unintentionally knock up Beverly seems pretty slim. Well, except for the fact that the former Head of Star Fleet medical seems to be a pretty bad doctor, if we're to believe the writers of this season. What if Beverly had an abortion? What if Jack died in an accident as a child? What if the Changeling goons accidentally killed him in any of the multiple attacks on their medical shuttle?

The plan relies on too many unknowns to even be remotely logical.

It's the last time the old gang is going to be together. Would shelling a few bucks for a decent writer have been too much?

[Chicago Redshirt]

35 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

Here's something that's been gnawing at me all day. Why did the Borg modify Picard? At the time, he was in his 60s. He was past the age most humans start families (even from what we've seen in the show.) They had access to his memories, so they know it would be unlikely he'd want to start a family.

Even if you buy the idea they could predict Picard, after the accidental death of his family, would want one of his own, there's no guarantee he'd find someone to start it with. The odds he'd unintentionally knock up Beverly seems pretty slim. Well, except for the fact that the former Head of Star Fleet medical seems to be a pretty bad doctor, if we're to believe the writers of this season. What if Beverly had an abortion? What if Jack died in an accident as a child? What if the Changeling goons accidentally killed him in any of the multiple attacks on their medical shuttle?

The plan relies on too many unknowns to even be remotely logical.

It's the last time the old gang is going to be together. Would shelling a few bucks for a decent writer have been too much?

I think we are supposed to take it that when they made him Locutus at the time of Best of Both Worlds, the Borg not only modified him in all the ways that Beverly caught and reversed but they also sent some organic transmitters that Beverly and the rest of Starfleet missed, that no amount of teleporter bio-filtering caught, and that was then misdiagnosed as a precursor to Irumodic Syndrome. These organic transmitters were passed along to Jack and had him gain the ability to talk to the Borg Queen, as well as the ability to enter others' minds and to control their actions.

The best I can do with making sense of this is that it was just happy coincidence (as opposed to a plan) that Picard had an offspring, or that the offspring inherited the transmitter and that the transmitter somehow morphed into letting him warg into others. That from birth, Jack had a connection to the Borg that he never figured out what it was, and for whatever reason the Borg did not act on for the first 20ish (lol) years of Jack's existence. Nor did they just tell him to go to X place for reasons, nor did they use the Changelings or some other catspaw to get him to come somewhere voluntarily for reasons. Instead, they threatened him and Beverly with force.  

None of this really makes sense, of course, because if 35 years ago, the Borg had the technology to mindcontrol anyone they wanted to without first assimilating them, they would not need Jack to recreate that technology now. They should be able to create a clone Jack (or whoever -- there's nothing that says there's something special about Jack's genetics) and infuse in it the same ability.

And of course, they could have just had the Changelings approach with an open hand rather than phaser fire. The Changelings could have just even pretended to be JLP in the first place after learning that Beverly had reached out to him.

Must...stop...analyzing...myriad...plot...holes....Instead...must...focus...on...nostalgia!

[iMonrey]

I'm mostly just annoyed how the show plays fast and loose with the concept of the Borg Queen. She's been killed at least twice now by my count. I suppose maybe the Borg are like bees, and when one Queen dies another just takes her place (and they all look alike). Still, they can't keep trotting out the Borg Queen as the ultimate big bad time after time like this.

To make matters worse they turned Agnes into the/a Borg Queen last season, so if this season chooses to wholly ignore that plot point it will be especially egregious.

Can you have fireworks in outer space?

[Cattoy]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

Can you have fireworks in outer space?

Theoretically, yes. If you had something like thermite that has it's own oxidizing agent. But it would have be a chemical reaction that could take place in the very low temperature of space. If nothing else, it's not the first time Star Trek has done this. The Cardassians did it in DS9, I think they did it when Voyager got home. Not sure if it was done at other times.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

But it would have be a chemical reaction that could take place in the very low temperature of space.

Sounds like a job for... The Daystrom Institute

[Starchild]

46 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

Theoretically, yes. If you had something like thermite that has it's own oxidizing agent. But it would have be a chemical reaction that could take place in the very low temperature of space. If nothing else, it's not the first time Star Trek has done this. The Cardassians did it in DS9, I think they did it when Voyager got home. Not sure if it was done at other times.

The fireworks we saw in Endgame were on Earth, celebrating the anniversary of the USS Voyager's return.

[dovegrey]

30 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

None of this really makes sense, of course, because if 35 years ago, the Borg had the technology to mindcontrol anyone they wanted to without first assimilating them, they would not need Jack to recreate that technology now.

See - and this is where I thought the plot was going, only Jack was a happy accident that made the Borg plot possible after Picard died in season 1. I figured they'd designed Locutus to be the "remote control" for their Federation assimilation plan, and he was essentially a sleeper agent all these years. When he died in season 1 and became a synth, they lost Locutus and needed a new "remote control" - enter Jack, who inherited Borg-methylated genes. They got lucky. But it really looks like Jack inherited some special mutated genes from Picard that go beyond Locutus, which seems completely unnecessary and silly given what the Borg can do...and what the writers could do as writers.

How did the Borg even know about Jack - could they eventually sense him? Did the Borg program Picard to procreate? And why couldn't anyone be Locutus-assimilated and then directed to breed (I feel icky writing that yuck) - why are the Picards so special?

[norcalgal]

9 hours ago, Nerfect Drifty said:

I think you underestimate the strength of forgetfulness and inertia among consumers.

 

8 hours ago, Francie said:

You're probably right. I can see the motto now:

Paramount+. We can bait and switch you because you won't switch off the channel. #lazy #forgetful

 

 

Nope, not this consumer.  We’re watching during a free one month trial of Paramount plus and I’ve put reminders in multiple places to cancel 1-2 days before my trial period ends and before I can start being automatically charged. We did the same for Mr. NorCal’s free trial period.

And I’ve done the same whenever I had a free trial of Amazon Prime. 
Luckily, we’ve never forgotten to cancel any free trial of anything before the auto payment started.  (Hopefully I haven’t jinxed us)

[rtms77]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:51 AM, starri said:

The inference, I think was that with the latest round of upgrades, the Changelings had sneaked the genetic code into the transporters.  So this is maybe over the course of the last few years, not going back to "Best of Both Worlds" times.

Also, Janeway was likely on the al Batani when Wolf 359 happened, so she'd have been too old.

Looks like I might be partially right, just the timing is off. As this reviewer suggests it was the Borg who infected the transporters with the DNA code, thus creating a new way to assimilate others indirectly. They just didn’t activate the plan until now. The episode also doesn’t make it clear if only starship transporters were infected or earth bound and Space stations were as well. If it was earth bound, then a good portion of earth would be assimilated.

 

The theory starts around 16 min mark

 

[Peace 47]

How did Vadic know what visions Jack was seeing?  She referred in a past episode to Jack seeing the red door, but how did she know this was Jack’s vision?  The Borg Queen told that disembodied head thing, who told Vadic?  Why bother? 

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Must...stop...analyzing...myriad...plot...holes....Instead...must...focus...on...nostalgia!

Once I just decided around episode 3 to set aside them trashing Beverly’s morality and character (which wasn’t easy, but I will always have TNG), I have kind of enjoyed watching the show on a slightly ironic/ slightly nostalgic level, and then coming here and seeing everyone (myself included) absolutely eviscerate the plotting and pacing of this show.  Not because I want to dunk on the hard work of the many professionals who put so much into this show (I saw somewhere that they rebuilt the D bridge set entirely for this, no CGI—that’s cool), but I just find the story decisions so baffling, they are actually legitimately funny to me.

Like, I will go back this weekend and watch for a second time them reminiscing on the D bridge just to see the old ship again and appreciate that wonderful, wonderful 90s TV lighting.  But in the moment of the episode, I was thinking that these people have no plan, no allies, an entire assimilated fleet against them, their children are in mortal danger, and in spite of all that, they are making carpet jokes, and as I said upthread, quite literally stepping over Shaw’s dead body to get to that point?  It’s so weird, it curves back around to being hilarious (to me). If they had first just developed a plan (ANY plan) that was a long shot, but there was nothing left to do but fire up the engines and give it a go, that scene would have played a million times better for me, because then I could have followed them drawing strength from a setting and friends that had led them do extraordinary things in the past.  But no, they just get on the ship as if that will be enough.  I’m sorry, that’s so weird, it’s funny.  I’m even a little sad the insanity ends next week.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Peace 47

[Sandman]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:30 PM, Francie said:

*Like her, hate her, or (like me) love to hate her, Shelby was bad ass.

The writers actually had the gall to have Picard say (lampshade once again firmly buckled onto his pointed little head) “The irony of Shelby saying something so [Borg-like]!”

No. It’s not ironic, it’s out of character and stupid. The only thing I can be sure Shelby never said to anyone ever? 

“Hey, you know what Starfleet should be? Like, Borg-Lite! I think that would be cool!”

Nothing but genetic retcons and character assassination, as far as the eye can see. Feh.

But I’ll admit, I’m curious: how do space fireworks work?

And, sure, I laughed at Deanna’s “Worf!” when Worf was jonesing for Enterprise-E’s snazzy upgrades, harshing on everybody’s (ahem) collective nostalgia buzz. What am I, made of duranium alloy?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Sandman

[TVbitch]

Hopefully Picard is really at home on his patio sleeping off a bottle of his cat piss Chateau Picard when Laris wakes him from his fever dream about saving the universe one last geriatric time. He kisses her tenderly and says.. "Thank fucking God I never had kids." 

[Sandman]

19 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

The Borg Queen told that disembodied head thing, who told Vadic?

I’m presuming the disembodied face thing was the Borg Queen. Not sure why Vadic’s own gooey substance had to be the means of her communication, but, whatever floats their collectivist boat, I guess.

On 4/13/2023 at 2:19 PM, rtms77 said:

For a connected collective, no Borg seem to talk to each other. 

Maybe it’s a translator glitch. The word “collective” ought to have been translated as “bureaucracy.” 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Sandman
Thanks for consolidating, mods!

[Starchild]

48 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I’m presuming the disembodied face thing was the Borg Queen. Not sure why Vadic’s own gooey substance had to be the means of her communication, but, whatever floats their collectivist boat, I guess. 

I'm fanwanking it as infecting Vadic with nanoprobes. We know they can do anything.

[Prevailing Wind]

JLP actually hallucinated the whole second and third seasons. He's waiting for that Soong descendant to create the positronic body for him - they have him in stasis until then and this is what happens to a brain that may or may not have irumodic syndrome in stasis.  He's gonna wake up & tell them to cremate that damn leftover body before it causes any more trouble.

[rtms77]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

I'm fanwanking it as infecting Vadic with nanoprobes. We know they can do anything.

And further fanwanking that some how the Borg, not the experiments made them more human like and able to bypass protocols etc. But then is  the whole Great Link Borg infected or just these rogues? I’m tripping over plot holes trying to make sense of this! 

[marinw]

So we can handwave that the Borg DNA Jack got from Picard may account for his ageing? We have all mentioned how Jack doesn’t look like he’s in his early twenties

Edited April 15, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

11 hours ago, marinw said:

So we can handwave that the Borg DNA Jack got from Picard May account for his ageing? We have all mentioned how Jack doesn’t look like he’s in his early twenties

Because the Borg assimilated some Kaminoans who added Jango Fett rapid aging sauce to Jack...

21 hours ago, norcalgal said:

I’ve put reminders in multiple places to cancel 1-2 days before my trial period ends and before I can start being automatically charged.

Your resistance is admirable; however, futile against mind control by Jack.... 

[marinw]

In Canada we get the Star Treks through CTV SciFi but I have subscribed to Paramount Plus which I can watch through Amazon because of Rabbit Hole-I am a Kieferhloic.

Plan to cancel in a couple of months, hope that does not prove too complicated. Have the cancel page bookmarked.

[PurpleTentacle]

11 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Looks like I might be partially right, just the timing is off. As this reviewer suggests it was the Borg who infected the transporters with the DNA code, thus creating a new way to assimilate others indirectly. They just didn’t activate the plan until now. The episode also doesn’t make it clear if only starship transporters were infected or earth bound and Space stations were as well. If it was earth bound, then a good portion of earth would be assimilated.

Just because some random reviewer says it, doesn't make it true.

The episode states that the changelings put in that code into the transporter. Of course they had help from the Borg, but that's another matter.

9 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Once I just decided around episode 3 to set aside them trashing Beverly’s morality and character (which wasn’t easy, but I will always have TNG), I have kind of enjoyed watching the show on a slightly ironic/ slightly nostalgic level, and then coming here and seeing everyone (myself included) absolutely eviscerate the plotting and pacing of this show.  Not because I want to dunk on the hard work of the many professionals who put so much into this show (I saw somewhere that they rebuilt the D bridge set entirely for this, no CGI—that’s cool), but I just find the story decisions so baffling, they are actually legitimately funny to me.

That's the set designers and craftsmen working hard. I still see no indication that the writers were working hard.

8 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Hopefully Picard is really at home on his patio sleeping off a bottle of his cat piss Chateau Picard when Laris wakes him from his fever dream about saving the universe one last geriatric time. He kisses her tenderly and says.. "Thank fucking God I never had kids." 

*Beverly

Since seasons 1 and 2 of Picard also don't exist.

Edited April 15, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[chaifan]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:23 AM, Glade said:

I found it unbelievable that Seven wasn't included/consulted for that entire first part of the episode that concerned the borg/Jack; something she is an expert on and someone she connected with earlier int he season.  She really should have been brought in the room when the TNG cast were discussing/investigating Jack's genetics.  

I completely agree.  Seven was so absent during the first part of the episode, that I figured she hid on the shuttle and was going to ambush Jack before he got to the cube.  But, no, after 20 minutes of not consulting the one Borg on the ship, she pops up on the bridge and had some stupid 3-4 word line. 

While I'm glad the show finally did something, for fucks sake, why wasn't all this happening in episode 4 or 5?  One episode to figure out how to save the entire Federation and humanoid races? 

I'm a ST fan, and also a big fan of Patrick Stewart, so I was really excited with the prospect of Picard.  Season one wasn't perfect, but fulfilled my expectations, and I was happy with it. Season 2 went off track, but was still a fun watch.  Season 3.  ugh.  This has just been painful to watch it go further and further down hill.  Some good moments, but too few to make up for this hot mess they produced.

I'm really rather disappointed in Will Wheaton.  I've been watching The Ready Room each week, and he's so geeked out about this season.  But is he really?  He's not just Star Trek alum, he's a super fan himself.  How is he not utterly disappointed with the crap writing and plot holes and just stupid shit that's going on this season?  Or is he really, and just toeing the Star Trek line to get his show produced?  If he's still gushing about this on the last episode of The Ready Room, we'll know Changlings really do exist, and he's one of them. 

 

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'm really rather disappointed in Will Wheaton.  I've been watching The Ready Room each week, and he's so geeked out about this season. 

He recovered admirably from all the Wesley-Hate absorbed as a young man... maybe a different species of shapeshifter replaced Wil Wheaton...

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

He recovered admirably from all the Wesley-Hate absorbed as a young man... maybe a different species of shapeshifter replaced Wil Wheaton...

I think his job, in this case, is to geek out, not be a critic. He is doing a good job.

 

On 4/14/2023 at 3:40 AM, AllyB said:

My feelings are similar to most people's. The episode was deeply flawed to the point that the plot was pretty stupid. I did enjoy the OG crew on Enterprise D however it was clearly tonally very, very off given what was happening. If they had all been present when they first arrived at the fleet museum and transferred from the Titan to the E-D, at that point when things were tense but not utterly devastating, it would have been genuinely great. Instead it was hard to be fully immersed in it when there was just no way those characters would have acted like that in that moment. When Deanna spoke to Geordi about his daughters it was sooo irritating that she had no concern for her own.

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that a few minutes of research could have easily sorted out one of the episodes bigger bugbears. There really is no way on earth that the majority of crew on most ships are under 25. I know most ST shows focus on high level crew, the cream of the crop, but it's always been pretty implicit that Starfleet personnel are highly educated, doctors, scientists, engineers with practical mechanical expertise or experts in law, political theory and diplomacy in addition to their Starfleet training. They aren't getting on ships at 21 and taking over most positions over the next 4 years, then moving on to stationary roles. They just aren't. So why didn't the writers just take 10 minutes to google mid-life decline. Then have Beverly say something like, the new transporter DNA changes only work in people with full Glutathione levels which decline rapidly after age 45. And then you very believably have enough Borg crew to swiftly take over most ships while leaving all the main cast be comfortably too old to be assimilated.

The starships may also be used as educational tools, though, which means a lot of ensigns and interns. Why wouldn't you?