All Episodes Discussion

[ari333]

I watched, "The Client" that aired last night about the missing realtor, Beverly Carter. I felt like I had seen the story before on another show, but there seemed to be a tidbit of new facts - new to me. The husband was worried so he went to the house that she was showing  and her car was there. He went inside the house.  (Was it unlocked?) That sort of makes sense since he probably thought she was inside. Although they told him he had contaminated a crime scene, which is true; but I understand why he wasn't thinking clearly.

Realtors should go in pairs. That is dangerous. Not that bein in pairs would for sure stop bad people from doing bad things, but it may decrease the chance somewhat.

That Lewis guy was unusually chatty to the police. However, much of it was a wild good chase.

[Wings]

7 hours ago, ari333 said:

I watched, "The Client" that aired last night about the missing realtor, Beverly Carter. I felt like I had seen the story before on another show, but there seemed to be a tidbit of new facts - new to me. The husband was worried so he went to the house that she was showing  and her car was there. He went inside the house.  (Was it unlocked?) That sort of makes sense since he probably thought she was inside. Although they told him he had contaminated a crime scene, which is true; but I understand why he wasn't thinking clearly.

Realtors should go in pairs. That is dangerous. Not that bein in pairs would for sure stop bad people from doing bad things, but it may decrease the chance somewhat.

That Lewis guy was unusually chatty to the police. However, much of it was a wild good chase.

I had not finished watching and deleted it my mistake.  Who did it?  Thanks. 

[ari333]

5 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I had not finished watching and deleted it my mistake.  Who did it?  Thanks. 

That Lewis dude. He got two life sentences IIRC. And his wife got 30 years, a reduced sentence for testifying against him.

[Wings]

Thanks. "^)

[ari333]

The wife knew about it and may have even called Beverly to set it all up, if I heard correctly. . They had Beverly held alive in their home ,bathroom. They realized that Beverly could have seen the wife's name on her prescription bottles in the bathroom and "had to die." He duct taped Beverly's head and she suffocated. How horrible.

[Guest]

A few people I know who are realtors insist that new clients meet at the office first, then if they feel uneasy will copy the potential clients driver's license and leave it in the office.  All bets are off though if the identification is bogus.

We had a realtor who told me that she got a call on a Friday night from a man very interested in seeing a listing she had. It was close to 5:00 and just started to snow.  She had a hinky feeling about it and told him she had other plans and to call the next day to set something up.  He never called back.  Not sure I can deduce that he was up to no good but it does make you think.

Also, did they say why Beverly and her husband were so strapped for money?  If she sold 12 million in real estate (in Arkansas) her commissions had to be a nice sum.  Just wondering how they blew through that much money. 

[ButterQueen]

The Good Husband

I never thought I would meet a more despicable cheating wife than Kandi Hall, who Keith Morrison showed obvious disdain for, until this show.  This woman made me sick.  Sharing holidays with her husband and lover because they both loved her.  Gag me!

That jury was completely ignorant.

[glowlights]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:31 AM, ari333 said:

Why would "a friend"  - a dentist - give the victim, Tom,  a dose of that drug so "he could sleep?" Who sleeps in the parking lot of a gym when the person has a home and is supposed to be at work in a few minutes/ an hour?

I have a theory about that low dose: Tom had severe sleep apnea, which makes sedatives far more dangerous. A dose that is enough to make someone fall asleep *is* potentially a lethal dose for someone with severe sleep apnea, which is why anesthesiologists and pain doctors have to be very, very careful with those patients and a dentist woud darn well know it. So I think he either slipped it to Tom in a drink or gave it to Tom as something else, hoping that the sleep apnea would kick in and finish Tom off. And if it didn't, all that would happen is Tom would wake up in a parking lot and everyone would tell him that unusual exhaustion and daytime sleepiness is normal for someone with his condition.

[Court]

I am not even halfway through the man who knew too much and I am so irritated and frustrated. Thr police zeroed in on one suspect and decided he did it despite zero physical evidence. Just decided he did it because he was smart and was able to piece some of it together quicker than the P.D.

They never even tried to look at other suspects.

Granted, I'm not done and the guy may very well have done it. But this is shoddy police work. ETA: I finished it. I'm convinced he's innocent. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Court

[MerBearHou]

Couldn't miss a moment of tonight's Dateline "The Man Who Knew Too Much".  Way to go, Ehrlich father and son -- a couple of champions -- blessings to you both.  Will be keeping an eye on January 2017 and hoping for good news for Ray.  I'm very, very sorry for the O'Keefe parents and can't imagine their agony (both children now tragically gone), but justice must be accurate, not just convenient to close a case.

Edited November 12, 2016 by MerBearHou

[Court]

OMG and then after two hung juries, the judge changes the venue to the victim's hometown? How is that not prejudicial? The entire purpose of a venue change is so you can find impartial jurors. Jurors who aren't as famiiar with the case. I think the jury felt bad for the family so they found him guilty on the lesser charge. I don't see how they could convict him. Zero evidence. No weapon. Shot at close range and lots of blood. None on him. Presence of blood belonging to an unknown male. No motive. This case is making me angrier than most.  

I know the parents are grieving but it is blinding them. 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Court

[ridethemaverick]

I knew when he started talking that he was the "type." A rent-a-cop who had little power in real life and maybe idolized law enforcement and tried his hardest to impress and be one of guys. I've known a few guys like him so all of the little details he added made sense to me. The ONLY thing about him that was against type was that he was an actual soldier.

I bet the young lady who testified against him knows a lot about who really did it but since the police never thought to question people who were hanging out near the crime scene smoking dope, well, that ship has sailed. Unbelievable.

Oh and Mr. didactic polymath? I think they wanted us to think he was an asshole but I thought he was hilarious. And good for him and his dad for what they accomplished.

Edited November 12, 2016 by ridethemaverick

[Court]

1 minute ago, ridethemaverick said:

I knew when he started talking that he was the "type." A rent-a-cop who had little power in real life and maybe idolized law enforcement and tried his hardest to impress and be one of guys. I've known a few guys like him so all of the little details he added made sense to me. The ONLY thing about him that was against type was that he was an actual soldier.

I bet the young lady who testified against him knows a lot about who really did it but since the police never thought to question people who were hanging out near the crime scene smoking dope, well, that ship has sailed. Unbelievable.

Yep, maybe one of them did it. How can you base your entire theory on he did it because he was the only one there. But that wasn't true! The prosecutor added on to the young lady's testimony and left out the fact she wss high. The defense attorney never corrected him. 

I'm so mad, I just was like clearly you're shitty investigators and that's why he figured some things out in minutes when it took you months.  Perhaps his military experience helped him there. 

[MerBearHou]

I  was compelled to read more about the Ehrlich law firm and found that they've started a Gofundme page for Ray because he received no compensation for his years wrongly served.  Maybe he will file a civil suit after January's decision.  Just horrible -- makes me so mad.

[Lizzing]

I was pissed that the defense attorney let the 3rd trial move to the hometown without a fight and let the "eye witness" testimony come in as read back from the prior trial.  I'm super rusty on criminal law, but I'm pretty sure that there's a constitutional right of confrontation AND the DA editorialized the testimony to add things the witness didn't even say.  Ineffective assistance of counsel, indeed.

I felt really bad for the parents, and it's terrible they've lost both kids.  They were more invested in the process of bringing Ray to trial than most victims' families, seeing as how they pretty much drove the train to get someone brought to justice because the cops were too busy to do their jobs properly.  The DA's office should have clued them in more about the process of releasing Ray; just showing up, banging on the door, and summonsing them downtown is extremely unprofessional and thoughtless.  That being said, I hope that they look into the evidence the DA didn't bring up (namely the three other people in the parking lot that night) and realize that it does no one any good if the wrong guy sits in jail.

I didn't think autodidact Ehrlich was an asshole; I just didn't buy for a hot second that he never watches Dateline. 

[JaggedLilPill]

The whole case was shoddily investigated, and I also thought it was highly prejudicial to move the third (and final) trial to the victim's hometown. I know in the past many people have been convicted of murder without a body being found, but they had the body in this one. But there was absolutely no DNA. No gun residue. And the DA's theory that he did it because he thought she was a hooker, but then found out she wasn't? Clearly lacking a strong motive. As to how he knew certain facts? I agree that he was showing off and maybe he had even been some kind of true crime fan who watched shows like Dateline and thought he could pass off speculation as true.

Still, jurors are told that they have to be able to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. If it were me, I would definitely have more than a reasonable doubt. Having said that, I'm sure the jurors felt immense pressure knowing there had been two hung juries prior to them and I do believe having it in Michelle's hometown made them feel like they had to convict, even if it was the lesser charge.

I liked the autodidact guy. I'm glad he and his dad were able to help Jennings.

That being said, I do feel so bad for the parents, especially after their son died. How awful. And I do want them to get justice for their daughter. I just don't think it's with Ray Jennings.

[Major Bigtime]

I agree with everything said here, shoddy detective work and a shitty attorney who should be disbarred for how he let Ray down.

I feel bad for those parents, I am guessing it's true that a marriage can often not survive the death of a child. But two, had to be hell on earth.

I couldn't stop thinking about Teresa Guidice every time I looked at the mother. Same hairline, no forehead.

[JudyObscure]

What a mesmerizing two hours that was.  I remember watching it the first time but not what my opinion was.  I feel guilty that I probably just went with where the show led me and that would have been toward believing the convoluted theory of the prosecution. 

I'm glad Ehrlich-son  was not a regular crime show watcher, because I think those of us who are become accustomed to hearing some fairly convincing denials from people we know are guilty.  Watching this time, with all the hints that Ray was innocent, I don't know how we all didn't hear the sincerity in his denial.  What lying criminal is going to say that when he stands before Jesus there will be some things he is guilty of, but this will not be one of them?  It's the admission of other "sins," that  convinced me. I think a liar would never think to add that.

My heart just breaks for Ray and all the time he lost with his five children.  He was taken away from them when they were darling babies and returned when they were teenagers.  How rotten is that?

My heart also breaks for those tragic parents, but this brought out all my questions about the parents in these cases.  They all say things I don't really agree with. "Now our daughter can rest in peace,"   "Now we have justice for her."  To my mind their sweet daughter is not tossing in her grave, but in a place of  total love and peace and she would want her parents to put this all aside, quit dwelling on "justice," and let the police and God worry about the murderer.  It's so sad to me to see surviving family members devote the entire rest of their lives to calling the police, looking for answers, attending every grueling minute of trials.  I know they will always carry the grief but I don't think the intense search for justice that they think they owe their family members really serves anyone best.  (If it was my own family it might all seem different -- I don't know.)

[RedheadZombie]

I agree with most here.   I cannot imagine the pain of the parents.   But I was irritated with that father by the end.  Ray could not be released until there was another body behind bars. Does he even care if the right man is convicted?

[Court]

5 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I agree with most here.   I cannot imagine the pain of the parents.   But I was irritated with that father by the end.  Ray could not be released until there was another body behind bars. Does he even care if the right man is convicted?

Yep. He seemed to think that in order to be innocent they had to arrest someone else. Look,that will likely never happen because the police didn't do their jobs. Like interview the group of people that were getting high in the lot.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Court

[JudyObscure]

Yep. I have a feeling one of the people in the car is now saying something like, "Yeah, we were stoned.  I kind of remember Jerry leaving for awhile and coming back all bloody.  He's dead now.  Overdosed on meth last year."  So the parents will never have a person behind bars, because you can't put a dead man on trial.

[iMonrey]

RE: The Man Who Knew Too Much - I remember watching when Dateline did the original story on this guy and they had me pretty well convinced he did it. Now they're saying he didn't do it? Make up your mind, Dateline! It just goes to show how the editing can sway your opinion one way or another.

I'd kind of like to go back and watch the original story about him, because I think they left some crucial details out of this new version that really made him look guilty as hell. I can't remember now what they were but they were pretty incriminating, like maybe he'd been arrested before for sexual assault, or something like that. There was enough there to convince me of his guilt but it wasn't presented in the new version.

[UsernameFatigue]

5 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I agree with most here.   I cannot imagine the pain of the parents.   But I was irritated with that father by the end.  Ray could not be released until there was another body behind bars. Does he even care if the right man is convicted?

That annoyed me as well, and it is not the first time I remember hearing this in a case. WTF does not having someone else arrested have to do with releasing someone who is innocent? I thought it was ironic that the father thought it was political reasons that got Ray released. I thought the whole reason he got three trials (and certainly the last one moved to where the family lived) was because Michelle's family was well known and influential. Also when the parents said that Michelle could rest in peace with someone behind bars I was thinking "No, she is not resting in peace because she knows you have the wrong person!"

I wish they would rerun the original Dateline show as well. I vaguely remember it but not what was presented. Though I did just google it and apparently many people were convinced after it aired that Jennings was not guilty. Part way through this version, when one of the prosecutors said Ray could have had the uniform cleaned I said to hubby that the security company had said that the uniform was not returned cleaned. I also said to hubby, why would Ray be carrying a gun at a job that was an unarmed one? In case he ran into a prostitute that didn't want to have sex with him so he could kill her? And how would he dispose of the gun? It isn't like he would know that the police would not be bright enough to eliminate him as a suspect then and there, so he could hide the gun at his leisure. Not to mention he would know there was video at the job site so why would he take the chance of being caught on tape? Totally ridiculous that he was convicted with no evidence what so ever. When the prosecutor said they had thousands of pages of evidence I said out loud, "No, you have no evidence and thousands of pages of Ray trying to be helpful". Another lesson brought to you from Dateline - if you are ever questioned as a witness in a murder investigation say as little as possible. 

I went to his GoFundMe page and see that people have been donating in the last day or so (it was started in late June). Only $19,652 of the $50,000 total has been raised so far (which is a pretty modest goal in itself) so I hope that goal is reached and surpassed soon. And that the Ehrlich's are able to sue for compensation on Ray's behalf. What an amazing person Clinton Ehrlich is to have pursued this, and his father to have joined him in getting Ray freed. I certainly hope he stays free, and that the police spend some time looking for the real killer. 

[glowlights]

On 11/12/2016 at 4:26 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I agree with most here.   I cannot imagine the pain of the parents.   But I was irritated with that father by the end.  Ray could not be released until there was another body behind bars. Does he even care if the right man is convicted?

I think at this point it is all about them and their anger, not justice for their daughter. Sad.

Erlich was I Am Very Smart come to life. Anyone who describes himself as an autodidactic polymath is indeed ridiculous, but in this instance he put his puffery to excellent use, so well done and keep it up kiddo.

[cooksdelight]

Erlich saying he was an autodidactic polymath reminded me of Robert Goren (Vincent D'Onofrio) on Law & Order: Criminal Intent. Goren would have had a field day with this case.

[Lsk02]

They're airing the show with all the latest updates on Friday. I can't wait to see how they talk about Pam bringing Dateline into all of this. 

[glowlights]

On 11/17/2016 at 7:52 AM, Lsk02 said:

They're airing the show with all the latest updates on Friday. I can't wait to see how they talk about Pam bringing Dateline into all of this. 

Thanks! Getting the popcorn ready...

I'm still mad about the health insurance fraud. Yeah, I know she did way worse but seeing that broad run in high heels really chapped me. Considering how many others with real disabilities have to fight for their benefits. She's garbage.

[hoosiermom]

WalnutQueen--when they said someone was impersonating a Dateline staff member,I immediately thought of you trying to get to Pam Hupp!

[Court]

Hupp deserves to rot in jail. What a despicable person 

[callmebetty]

It broke my heart when the sister or friend (sorry can't remember ) of the young man said no one was there to tell him it was a bad idea. That bitch deserves everything karma is going to dish out.

[biakbiak]

No one, no one, no one, not even a piece of shit murder like Hupp should talk to the police without a lawyer. 

The fact that they couldn't see one person was a lying sociopath and one was an innocent dude with an air tight alibi makes me realize that way too many cops believe their "gut" and time and time again the cops and prosecuters just refuse to be logical about facts once rhe "create" their case and it's  absolutely terrifying.

Edited November 19, 2016 by biakbiak

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, biakbiak said:

The fact that they couldn't see one person was a lying sociopath and one was an innocent dude with an air tight alibi makes me realize that way too many cops believe their "gut" and time and time again the cops and prosecuters just refuse to be logical about facts once rhe "create" their case and it's  absolutely terrifying.

It is. That particular bald cop who first set this travesty in motion deserved to be arrested himself by the grammar police. It's hard to have a lot of confidence in the detective skills of a man who keeps saying things like, "We done think you done, done it." 

My hero is that defense attorney. I loved the string of film clips of Pam saying one thing, on camera, one day and another thing, on camera, at a later time.  In one of her very first interviews she said she something like, "I know I told you I was sitting on the couch but then I was thinking last night that it sounded better to say I walked her to the door..."  How could they not know this woman was a liar after that?

[walnutqueen]

9 hours ago, hoosiermom said:

WalnutQueen--when they said someone was impersonating a Dateline staff member,I immediately thought of you trying to get to Pam Hupp!

hoooosiermom -  I couldn't help but think that if "someone" had brought Karma to Hupp when I joked about it, two innocent people might still be alive.  But if the cops & DA on the Farina case had done their jobs in the first place, this would all be moot now, wouldn't it?

[Lsk02]

I wonder if Betsy's family still thinks it was Russ, after all this. 

[cooksdelight]

The show that aired last night.... I was up for hours, scared to death. Pam Hupp is a psychopath. 

[JudyObscure]

35 minutes ago, Lsk02 said:

I wonder if Betsy's family still thinks it was Russ, after all this.

Betsy's smug faced mother saying, "The minute I heard Betsy was dead, I knew Russ did it," is a whole other type of terrifying.  People who don't want you to confuse them with facts,  they just know things, and they will never, ever change their minds because they're too in love with the idea of themselves as some  version of the Long Island Medium.  People like that are on juries!

[Lsk02]

I was thinking about one of Pam's (many) lies at the beginning, when she told the police Betsy was planning to tell Russ she wanted them to move in with her family and was afraid he was going to be angry. The mother and sisters had to know this was a lie, because I'm sure her mother (who looks it looked like lived in a small apartment) would have known her daughter was planning to move in with her. Pam later changed that to them being in a relationship and Russ being jealous, so how was that not a huge glaring clue to her family?

 

I know we're seeing the big picture from an outside perspective, and without whatever bias they already had against Russ, but I just can't wrap my head around how much they seem to ignore about Pam. I'm guessing Betsy's family is done interviewing about this, and I can't blame them for not wanting to continue discussing their daughter/sister's death, but I was left wanting to know more. 

 

I will say, I've never seen Keith so excited about a story.  I think he's looking forward to coming back here! 

[walnutqueen]

37 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

The show that aired last night.... I was up for hours, scared to death. Pam Hupp is a psychopath. 

FYI - It's being discussed over on the "Return to Game Night" thread.

[ari333]

Hupp. How could they not see through her from the freakin beginning? What a horrible excuse of a human.

[PepperMonkey]

Pam Hupp is a serial killer, plain and simple.

The state of Missouri, that city, those prosecutors and policemen/women should be ashamed of themselves. More people died because they bought her lies hook, line and sinker. Hell, they even enabled her.

I don't know if Betsy's family still blames Russ, but it was telling to me, for Betsy's daughters, at least, that they didn't bring any kind of suit against Russ. And Russ was in court in their suit against the murderer so maybe there's a glimmer of hope there. Sad, because I think Russ really cared/ cares about those girls. And if he doesn't have kids of his own, he probably still thinks of them as "his daughters."

[ari333]

Quote

•  

Sorry about the quote box.

 

When I watched "The Man Who Knew Too Much" about Michelle Okeefe's murder, I thought Ray (security guard) came across as innocent to me from the start. Yes, he talks too much and that was a mistake. I didn't find him to be a murderer or involved.

Did I hear it right? They didn't even check his hands for gunshot residue?

Did he spend 16 yrs in prison ? Get an atty before you start yapping people. But gees he was a witness. Surely a witness could help without being prosecuted.... no....

No wonder folks aren't  eager to get involved.

[RedheadZombie]

This case inspires rage in me, usually inspired by baby killers.  I hate so many of these people.  The cops not only fed Pam everything she needed to say and do, they ignored her obvious lies and changed stories, represented her as a credible witness which surely strengthened her case in the insurance fight, and directly emboldened her to kill her mother and that poor brain damaged man.    

Law enforcement through the prosecutor's office were not only incompetent, but guilty of malpractice.    Some of them had to be smart enough to knowingly ignore Pam's guilt in the murder, so they need to be fired, prosecuted, and disbarred.  

I believe in human rights in prison.   I do not support the death penalty.  But I want this woman in the general population.   I want her bullied, humbled, and beaten frequently.  She is a pure sociopath.   Death row would isolate and protect her.  I don't want her there.   Let her be the small fish in the big pond.  Let her hold her own against people who aren't dying of cancer, elderly, or brain damaged.  

Please note how Pam made sure to point out the obesity of Betsy and her mother.  Fucking bitch.   And please investigate her husband.  No way he wasn't involved. 

[ari333]

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

This case inspires rage in me, usually inspired by baby killers.  I hate so many of these people.  The cops not only fed Pam everything she needed to say and do, they ignored her obvious lies and changed stories, represented her as a credible witness which surely strengthened her case in the insurance fight, and directly emboldened her to kill her mother and that poor brain damaged man.    

Law enforcement through the prosecutor's office were not only incompetent, but guilty of malpractice.    Some of them had to be smart enough to knowingly ignore Pam's guilt in the murder, so they need to be fired, prosecuted, and disbarred.  

I believe in human rights in prison.   I do not support the death penalty.  But I want this woman in the general population.   I want her bullied, humbled, and beaten frequently.  She is a pure sociopath.   Death row would isolate and protect her.  I don't want her there.   Let her be the small fish in the big pond.  Let her hold her own against people who aren't dying of cancer, elderly, or brain damaged.  

Please note how Pam made sure to point out the obesity of Betsy and her mother.  Fucking bitch.   And please investigate her husband.  No way he wasn't involved. 

BBM

I agree with this whole post, but I ,too, noticed her mention the other women's weight. What a hateful, despicable  cow.

And apologies to real cows.

[PepperMonkey]

Was Betsy any more "obese" than Pam?

Also, who comments on their MOM's obesity? My mom was perfect to me in every way and I never even thought about her in terms of looks at all.

[biakbiak]

11 minutes ago, PepperMonkey said:

Was Betsy any more "obese" than Pam?

Also, who comments on their MOM's obesity? My mom was perfect to me in every way and I never even thought about her in terms of looks at all.

You probably also didn't murder your mom!

I hadn't heard of her mother's death and I realize that my opinion might have been skewed because Pam is a murdering sociopath but the first time the showed the railing I thought there was no way that someone tripped and fell through it like that and that was before they brought the experts in. I can't believe it wasn't looked at more closely particularly given that Pam told them that her mother wouldn't need anything that night or the following morning.

[cooksdelight]

6 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

FYI - It's being discussed over on the "Return to Game Night" thread.

Why? It's not "Return to Game Night" original episode, is it?? It was titled "Truth Is Stranger Than Fiction".... right??

 

4 hours ago, ari333 said:

Sorry about the quote box.

 

When I watched "The Man Who Knew Too Much" about Michelle Okeefe's murder, I thought Ray (security guard) came across as innocent to me from the start. Yes, he talks too much and that was a mistake. I didn't find him to be a murderer or involved.

Did I hear it right? They didn't even check his hands for gunshot residue?

Did he spend 16 yrs in prison ? Get an atty before you start yapping people. But gees he was a witness. Surely a witness could help without being prosecuted.... no....

No wonder folks aren't  eager to get involved.

Really!! Get a freakin' attorney and shut up!!

Edited November 20, 2016 by cooksdelight

[biakbiak]

1 minute ago, cooksdelight said:

Why? It's not "Return to Game Night" episode?

Because it's the continuation of the story and people have been taking about the case there in anticipation of the update.

Edited November 20, 2016 by biakbiak

[cooksdelight]

Just now, biakbiak said:

Because it's the continuation of the story and people have been taking about the case there in anticipation of the update.

I didn't see that first episode, I saw "Stranger Than Fiction" or whatever it was called, last night.

[biakbiak]

4 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

I didn't see that first episode, I saw "Stranger Than Fiction" or whatever it was called, last night.

The first hour of Stranger than Fiction was basically a repeat of Return to Game Night with a few hints by Keith in voiceover about the turns the case would eventually take. Everything after he was acquitted was new but everything before that was Return to Game Night.

Edited November 20, 2016 by biakbiak

[RedheadZombie]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

You probably also didn't murder your mom!

I hadn't heard of her mother's death and I realize that my opinion might have been skewed because Pam is a murdering sociopath but the first time the showed the railing I thought there was no way that someone tripped and fell through it like that and that was before they brought the experts in. I can't believe it wasn't looked at more closely particularly given that Pam told them that her mother wouldn't need anything that night or the following morning.

Exactly.  Pam was not a diabolical genius.  She was sloppy, short-sighted, and bumbling.   The people investigating and prosecuting this case were willfully ignorant.   They were too lazy to look into her mother's case because she was old.  And no one cares about the brain damaged man who had no money or influence.  I'm amazed they're even investigating the poor man's murder.  I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up prosecuting Betsy's husband.  I'm sure Betsy's mom thinks he did it anyway.  I just hate willful ignorance.