All Episodes Discussion

[iMonrey]

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You really have to feel bad for these victims who marry these greedy people who later murder them for insurance policies and property. 

There was quite a bit of innuendo in this guy's story, from the ex-wife saying their "interests" had changed to Cindy's sister saying Ken liked to go to Vegas and get lap dances. Kind of makes you wonder what Ken was into that the ex-wife wasn't and that maybe Cindy was. 

Nobody "deserves" to be murdered, but Ken dumped the mother of his children for this woman, and look what that got him. We never actually heard from Cindy but if she's anything like her sister, it's hard to understand what anyone would see in her. She was clearly a kook, telling Ken's sister they were married when she knew that wasn't true then getting all hostile for being called out on it. So I think there were plenty of red flags right from the start the Ken chose to ignore, for whatever reason.

[Irlandesa]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

Nobody "deserves" to be murdered, but Ken dumped the mother of his children for this woman, and look what that got him.

I don't think his ex wife and Cindy overlapped.  It sounds like there was some space between the divorce and him getting together with Cindy.

But yeah, I did raise some eyebrows at some of the innuendo.  Like his pharmacist friend living with his girlfriend, a former stripper, and her friend.  In what sounds like a pretty rural area.  I don't want to victim shame but there are a lot of sketchy characters for such a small town.

[Girl in a Cardigan]

On 4/22/2022 at 12:58 AM, Annber03 said:

Watched an episode I've not seen before, called "Miles From Nowhere". It's about this guy, Chad, who chased down a car full of young men who'd been wandering around near his property, and he shot at them multiple times. Injured a couple of the guys, and one died.

And I can't even with this Chad guy. That sign outside his property, about the "Republic of Chad" and how only "red-blooded patriotic Christian Americans" were allowed on the property (because, y'know, Jesus would've been all about the guns and the shooting)...like, fuck off, you creepy weirdo. 

So this episode just came on Oxygen in the "Secrets Uncovered" version and holy hell. This guy is WILD. I just...OMG! They "scared your family" (by stealing lights from your fence?) and so you needed to chase them down 8 miles from that house with an AR-15? STFU dude.

And the wife was just so completely brainwashed. Like her affect in the short interview sections they used was so stilted, like she wasn't used to having to think or talk at all. A person died because of your husband's actions and all you can think about is that he's not at home? You're not even a little sad about what your husband did (pretty sure the Bible is clear about murder) because if he didn't, "those people" might come back - to steal more lights from your fence?? And she wouldn't call him Chad, it was always "my husband." Just weird.

Like I know that these people are out there in the North and East of my state, but it was just incredible for the MURDERER to be talking about his rage and at the KID HE KILLED. Like if you have a freaking lasersite on your weapon, you've already gone round the bend, dude. Call the cops and report the vandalism - there's no need to "go into a zone." (Don't get me started on the military either.) Absolutely sickening!

[Annber03]

46 minutes ago, Girl in a Cardigan said:

So this episode just came on Oxygen in the "Secrets Uncovered" version and holy hell. This guy is WILD. I just...OMG! They "scared your family" (by stealing lights from your fence?) and so you needed to chase them down 8 miles from that house with an AR-15? STFU dude.

Yeah, it seems every single time there's a story like this, with the "I needed to defend myself!" BS, the crime in question is usually something very minor. Like taking some lights, or there was a story I saw on "20/20" once, I think it was, about a guy who shot at some teens in a car because their music was too loud (and the teens were black and the shooter was white, so....y'know, that added a whole other layer of yikes to everything), or something like that. And these guys doing the shooting always look like the sort who, if they really felt they absolutely HAD to get aggressive, could probably just get in a couple punches that might scare the other person off, and they could walk off without much fuss. 

But nope. Apparently for guys like Chad, literally the only way to solve any dispute with somebody is with a gun. There's just no other possible option they could come up with to resolve a situation, or scare somebody off. There's plenty of stories out there of people who've managed to defend themselves and their loved ones just fine in similar situations without having to pull a gun and chase down or kill anyone, but that's just too haaaaaaard a concept for guys like Chad to grasp. 

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A person died because of your husband's actions and all you can think about is that he's not at home? You're not even a little sad about what your husband did (pretty sure the Bible is clear about murder) because if he didn't, "those people" might come back - to steal more lights from your fence??

Right? Even if one believed their spouse was somehow justified in taking that kind of action, I'd still be a little disturbed that my husband could fly off the handle THAT easily and THAT violently like that. It doesn't matter what one's reason is for killing somebody, the fact remains that it's still a mind bend for a lot of people to acknowledge that they or their loved one could be capable of such an act. 

And even if they don't care about the victims...I mean, those people's families had nothing to do with any of this. And Chad's actions ensured one family would never see their loved one again, period. Surely one could at the very least spare a moment to think of them and show some compassion and remorse in that regard. 

I love your point about the Bible and murder, too. Yeah, funny, isn't it, how these kinds of Christians seem so able to pick and choose which parts of this Bible they want to follow - the same Bible they claim they're so devoted to?

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Call the cops and report the vandalism - there's no need to "go into a zone." (Don't get me started on the military either.) Absolutely sickening!

That's the other thing that always gets me about guys like this. These are the sorts of people who go around being all, "Blue lives matter!" and claim they support cops and all that...for people who supposedly support cops, they sure seem to be doing a lot of the cops' job for them. If they're really so supportive and trusting of the cops, why not, as you said, call them and let them handle it, then? Why do they have to go out there and play lawman? 

And yeah, if true crime shows have taught me anything, it's that the moment anyone starts making such a big to do of their military experience, they're either a) lying, or b) they did serve, but they were the sort of people who got waaaaaaay TOO attached to the violence. Either way, those kinds of stories never end well for all involved. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

18 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Yeah, it seems every single time there's a story like this, with the "I needed to defend myself!" BS, the crime in question is usually something very minor. Like taking some lights, or there was a story I saw on "20/20" once, I think it was, about a guy who shot at some teens in a car because their music was too loud (and the teens were black and the shooter was white, so....y'know, that added a whole other layer of yikes to everything), or something like that. And these guys doing the shooting always look like the sort who, if they really felt they absolutely HAD to get aggressive, could probably just get in a couple punches that might scare the other person off, and they could walk off without much fuss. 

But nope. Apparently for guys like Chad, literally the only way to solve any dispute with somebody is with a gun. There's just no other possible option they could come up with to resolve a situation, or scare somebody off. There's plenty of stories out there of people who've managed to defend themselves and their loved ones just fine in similar situations without having to pull a gun and chase down or kill anyone, but that's just too haaaaaaard a concept for guys like Chad to grasp. 

Right? Even if one believed their spouse was somehow justified in taking that kind of action, I'd still be a little disturbed that my husband could fly off the handle THAT easily and THAT violently like that. It doesn't matter what one's reason is for killing somebody, the fact remains that it's still a mind bend for a lot of people to acknowledge that they or their loved one could be capable of such an act. 

And even if they don't care about the victims...I mean, those people's families had nothing to do with any of this. And Chad's actions ensured one family would never see their loved one again, period. Surely one could at the very least spare a moment to think of them and show some compassion and remorse in that regard. 

I love your point about the Bible and murder, too. Yeah, funny, isn't it, how these kinds of Christians seem so able to pick and choose which parts of this Bible they want to follow - the same Bible they claim they're so devoted to?

That's the other thing that always gets me about guys like this. These are the sorts of people who go around being all, "Blue lives matter!" and claim they support cops and all that...for people who supposedly support cops, they sure seem to be doing a lot of the cops' job for them. If they're really so supportive and trusting of the cops, why not, as you said, call them and let them handle it, then? Why do they have to go out there and play lawman? 

And yeah, if true crime shows have taught me anything, it's that the moment anyone starts making such a big to do of their military experience, they're either a) lying, or b) they did serve, but they were the sort of people who got waaaaaaay TOO attached to the violence. Either way, those kinds of stories never end well for all involved. 

I saw that episode, and was ticked at how little of the actual story told by Chad was outright lying.     By the way, when they said very few people have passed the Army Ranger qualifying test, there are a lot of them.   Actually, there are thousands of Rangers who went through the qualifying course.   

Chad sounds paranoid and delusional, and there is no self-defense involved in this case, he drove for miles after them before shooting.   The wife's excuses for her husband are pathetic.

Edited November 18, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[Ohmo]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:43 AM, GiandujaPie said:

I do think Cindy likely was the culprit but based on the evidence that Dateline showed the evidence was pretty paltry.

I think the evidence was there, but it wasn't obvious.  They covered one piece in the episode.  That the back door was unlocked, the kids were out of the house, and the cameras were off.  That's a whole lot of luck for an intruder.

Another was that he was naked.  I took that to mean the two of them got into a fight.  Maybe he was going to or coming from the shower, but one's spouse has seen the other person naked.  If they were fighting, I could see them yelling at each other without him thinking of covering up.  She then shoots him.  If it's an intruder, it feels rather random for the intruder to arrive at the precise point where Ken is naked.

[MerBearHou]

This episode The Figure in the House made my blood boil.  Those detectives’ methods and questioning of Justin for hours and hours … those cops’ investigative instincts and tactics were WAY off.  And the cold, clinical apology later — shame shame shame.  I wanted to reach through the TV and hug Justin.  

On the other end of my mood, I was momentarily amused when Justin’s mustache and beard appeared in the interviews.  He was wearing the same white shirt as a moment before, but now he had a nice beard and mustache.  I had to rewind because I said “wait a minute…” to be sure I’d seen a clean-shaven and a bit thinner Justin just a frame before.  

Honestly, I wasn’t sure how this one was going to end — it really held my interest.  Lots of twists and surprises.  

[Guest]

Usually in a Dateline they portray the detectives as human beings with wives, pets and some hobby. 

Not these detectives. I was always taught that an apology never contains the word but - his did. It wasn’t an apology but an attempt to justify his brutal behavior. If he’s so honorable why not follow through and find a new profession?  Preferably one that does not include coming into contact with breathing beings.  He should be embarrassed with his portrayal last night but sadly we know he isn’t  

As for the murderer, yeah. They finally got it right. He can throw anything he wants on the wall to see what will stick but fortunately the jurors looked at the evidence and made the right decision.  And the prison guards better keep a sharp eye on this Svengali…with a life sentence the murderer has nothing to lose.

Question…my heater kicked on and I missed something. When the murderer was holed up in the hotel Dennis said he made a lot of phone calls and…?  Did he say he had sex?  With who?  Wasn’t he holed up there alone?

I totally agree with MerBearHou, this did have a lot of twists and turns. A very good episode. 

[Stampiron]

53 minutes ago, PsychoKlown said:

Question…my heater kicked on and I missed something. When the murderer was holed up in the hotel Dennis said he made a lot of phone calls and…?  Did he say he had sex?  With who?  Wasn’t he holed up there alone?

visited porn sites on the internet.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Stampiron said:

visited porn sites on the internet.

Thank you. 
Stupid heater. 

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

Not these detectives. I was always taught that an apology never contains the word but - his did. It wasn’t an apology but an attempt to justify his brutal behavior. If he’s so honorable why not follow through and find a new profession?

I like that description of an apology.  I'm going to remember that.

I thought the other detective in the room made the comment about changing professions, but neither one of them were great.

I couldn't figure out what drove the guy to kill Jill?  From all accounts, he's burglarized before.  The cops knew he had a pattern.  Why not simply leave once confronted?  Did he never encounter a person in a house during a previous break-in?  He was committing a crime, but there are levels of crime.  Given his planning for his escape, he didn't strike me as lacking the ability to use higher-order thinking skills.  I'm surprised that he didn't weigh the option of simply leaving. A break-in where you don't harm anyone still has to be less weight than if you murder that person.

[ButterQueen]

My hero of the episode was the jury foreperson who said NO when polled by the judge on the manslaughter verdict.  She was very brave.

I like the two hour episodes.  It goes over things I may have missed.

I like Andrea ok, but her dresses are too short for this show.  I covet her jewelry though.

Kinda OT, but I loved the interview of Matthew Perry by Diane Sawyer on 20/20.  Matthew was wearing his step dad’s (Keith Morrison) classic black converse.

[TVbitch]

I'm sure I would be in a blind panic, too, if I went through what Justin went through, but he pretty much did everything wrong in that interrogation: lying, changing stories multiple times, not asking for a lawyer. I can see why the cops were suspicious, but how did they not see the kid was completely out of his gourd on shock and adrenaline. 

Um, so the father sees someone with a mask on in the house, the cameras go dead, he can't get ahold of his wife, he calls his son to ask if it's him playing a prank and the son says no ...so he tells his son to go there and check it out?! That is so crazy that I initially thought he must be setting his son up to discover the body! 

[iMonrey]

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This episode The Figure in the House made my blood boil.  Those detectives’ methods and questioning of Justin for hours and hours … those cops’ investigative instincts and tactics were WAY off.  And the cold, clinical apology later — shame shame shame.  I wanted to reach through the TV and hug Justin.

One of many things I've learned from Dateline: If you're hauled in for questioning, you clam up and ask for a lawyer. I would never subject myself to that kind of interrogation. 

This case left me scratching my head. The son did seem awfully fishy, changing his story over and over. But then again the security cameras pretty much verified he wasn't there at the time of the murder, unless he snuck back into the house on foot after establishing driving off. And the accused had no history of violence and the crime just seemed so random. They never did explain how he got into the house through such a tiny break in the glass door either.

Then again, his previous burglaries pretty much matched the crime scene. The whole thing was weird. I could have gone either way on this.

[Annber03]

45 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This case left me scratching my head. The son did seem awfully fishy, changing his story over and over.

Yeah, his behavior kinda weirded me out at times throughout the episode, too. Granted, I've been fortunate to never stumble upon a loved one in that kind of horrific situation or be questioned about a murder, so I do get his reaction on that level, of course - it would be a very emotional situation, obviously. 

But even then, I dunno, there were times he came off so DRAMATIC, in the way that often tends to raise suspicions in these kinds of cases. It felt almost like he was overacting at times. 

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And the accused had no history of violence and the crime just seemed so random. They never did explain how he got into the house through such a tiny break in the glass door either

.The stuff with the DNA possibly being contaminated, and that county office having a lot of scrutiny around it because of that, didn't help matters, either. I felt the prosecutor was a little too dismissive of that particular issue and concern. 

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Then again, his previous burglaries pretty much matched the crime scene. The whole thing was weird. I could have gone either way on this.

And his running as he did, and asking people to create an alibi for him, certainly didn't help matters, either.

But yeah, this is pretty much where I stand as well. The whole case was just really bizarre. And this...

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

Um, so the father sees someone with a mask on in the house, the cameras go dead, he can't get ahold of his wife, he calls his son to ask if it's him playing a prank and the son says no ...so he tells his son to go there and check it out?! That is so crazy that I initially thought he must be setting his son up to discover the body! 

My mom was stuck on this as well. She didn't get that, either, and thought the same thing initially about him setting up his son. If he's that concerned about the situation, why not just call the cops, instead of let his son risk making that discovery or, equally as bad, risking being killed himself. For all he knew, the burglar could've still been in the house. 

I honestly wondered if someone was going to float the theory that either the son or father had hired the guy to commit the murder. That could explain the guy's DNA in the house and also make sense of some aspects of the crime that seemed odd. 

[izabella]

3 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Um, so the father sees someone with a mask on in the house, the cameras go dead, he can't get ahold of his wife, he calls his son to ask if it's him playing a prank and the son says no ...so he tells his son to go there and check it out?! That is so crazy that I initially thought he must be setting his son up to discover the body! 

I could not figure that out what he was thinking!  If it had turned out the father was involved in the murder and setting up his son, I would not have been surprised.

A lot of things didn't make sense.  The police originally thought the murderer must have targeted her because there were so many stab wounds, plus the elaborate scene with her hands and feet bound, in the bathtub.  They said that wasn't something a random burglar would do - most would just run and be quick about it. But they were willing to toss that theory because they believed a burglar suddenly escalated to a vicious and intense murder?

The son said he went to the bathroom after he heard the water running.  How long was that water running?  I don't think I heard anyone say anything about there being water overflowing the tub onto the floor.  On the 911 call, he didn't mention water on the floor, and I would have expected if the bathtub flooded, it would have been a big mess and he would have brought it up.   If there was no water on the floor, why not if the faucet was still running?

I was more inclined to believe the son killed his mother, but then there was that DNA. 

This was unsatisfying because there was a lot that wasn't explained or didn't quite fit together.

[Ohmo]

14 hours ago, Annber03 said:

But even then, I dunno, there were times he came off so DRAMATIC, in the way that often tends to raise suspicions in these kinds of cases. It felt almost like he was overacting at times. 

I chalked that up to privilege.  Justin comes from a wealthy family and his only other sibling lives out of state.  He was currently not in school, and he didn't seem to focus on anything that didn't involve him or his 20 something world.  He didn't have a significant other.  His job seemed entry-level at best, and he was in party mode.  Everything probably seemed dramatic to him because it involved him.

I don't think Justin did it.  He wasn't at all friends with the guy, and the MO matched the other robberies.  There's no way for Justin to have known that.  The DNA was big for me.  I don't think it was planted because why?  It's not like the cops were averse to questioning Justin, so why plant DNA?  Investigate Justin.

As to cross-comtamination, possibly.  However, that's on the defense.  If the defense was going to go down that path, they needed to go down that path.  Were the items tested at the same time or at different times? Had the guy committed a burglary at any time around the murder so that his DNA would have been there at the lab to contaminate the evidence from the murder?  IIRC, DNA was on the door opening, a cord, and the knife.

Plus, the reaction when they thought the verdict was manslaughter? That suggests involvement----that he had somewhat gotten away with murder.

[iMonrey]

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 If there was no water on the floor, why not if the faucet was still running?

Tubs have secondary drains, usually underneath the thingy you flip up to close the floor drain if it's a shower/tub combo, or just an isolated fixture near the faucets if it's just a big tub like that. They're there to prevent overflow.

[Ohmo]

12 hours ago, izabella said:

I could not figure that out what he was thinking!

I think the father might have not even thought of a break-in. Yeah, they had a security system, but I think a part of a lot of people don't ever expect to need it.  They were in a gated community, and the show mentioned that Jill didn't have a lot of expensive jewelry. I think the father just didn't conceive the idea that what was happening could be criminal.

[izabella]

33 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I think the father might have not even thought of a break-in. Yeah, they had a security system, but I think a part of a lot of people don't ever expect to need it.  They were in a gated community, and the show mentioned that Jill didn't have a lot of expensive jewelry. I think the father just didn't conceive the idea that what was happening could be criminal.

I can understand that, but it still boggles.  Unknown stranger in a mask in your house with your wife home alone, and then suddenly the cameras are dead.  I'd be calling 911 once I knew it wasn't the only other person with access to the house.

[The Closer]

I thought it was odd the father didn't call 911, but he also lives in a world where crime is a non-event. This is why he initially thinks it might be his son playing a prank - the thought of someone breaking into his home would be that unthinkable. He also didn't have the ability to go back and watch the video and had to rely on what he thought he might have seen for a few seconds so he behaved like a the scientist he is, wanting certainty and proof before jumping to conclusions. There are plenty of people in the world who delay calling 911 because they want to be sure, fearing embarrassment that they panicked and got police involved for something silly. I put him in this category. 

Whether you feel like the son was overly dramatic or unlikeable, imagine what he saw that day and then follow it up with 11 hours of being brutally interrogated and accused of it. What exactly would be a normal way to respond and does the trauma of it ever actually go away? 

Deyonte had a long criminal history as a juvenile, but when this murder happened he was around 19. He was no longer going to get the slap on the wrist that the had grown up with in the juvenile system and, prior to the murder, he was arrested for robbery and sentenced to 2 years in jail, obviously serving far less than that. Getting caught committing another felony so soon after would surely have earned him some decent prison time. I don't think he planned to kill anyone but 1) he had been to Justin's room already and had the knives on him 2) he runs into Jill and they are both shocked and a struggle ensues 3) Jill tries to escape and he knocks her out. Let's not act as if he ran out at that point that he wouldn't have done a decade of prison time. Instead, he stabs her many times and leaves behind the son's knife. It almost worked.

[DonnaMae]

On 11/19/2022 at 8:17 AM, ButterQueen said:

I like Andrea ok, but her dresses are too short for this show.  I covet her jewelry though.

I agree.  It's not meant to be a fashion show.  She should wear longer skirts and less flowery designs.

2 hours ago, The Closer said:

I don't think he planned to kill anyone but 1) he had been to Justin's room already and had the knives on him 2) he runs into Jill and they are both shocked and a struggle ensues 3) Jill tries to escape and he knocks her out. Let's not act as if he ran out at that point that he wouldn't have done a decade of prison time. Instead, he stabs her many times and leaves behind the son's knife. It almost worked.

That's a good theory, but why did he tie her up and put her in the tub?  

[12catcrazy]

37 minutes ago, DonnaMae said:

37 minutes ago, DonnaMae said:

That's a good theory, but why did he tie her up and put her in the tub?  

Maybe she wasn't totally knocked out and he wanted her subdued.  Maybe she started to scream, which could've been why he stabbed her in a frenzy.    He seemed like a smart young man and maybe thought the tub and water would wash away any DNA evidence (and he wouldn't have been wrong - they didn't get DNA off the knife in the tub).

And yeah - if dragged in to be interviewed by the police, ask for a lawyer.  Those cops seemed to do everything to that kid (victim's son) but shine a light directly into his eyes and then beat him with a rubber hose.   They would have said they were justified if it turned out that he was guilty, but he wasn't and they didn't offer much in the way of an apology.  

[Vivigirl10]

On 11/19/2022 at 10:17 AM, ButterQueen said:

My hero of the episode was the jury foreperson who said NO when polled by the judge on the manslaughter verdict.  She was very brave.

I never even knew you could do this!  Very, very brave indeed.  It was disgusting to hear that they appeared to be celebrating at the defense table.  

I think there are often a lot of outside influences that juries bring into deliberation.  In this case, it was George Floyd and the racial unrest in our country.  I know in watching many of these shows, there may be reasonable doubt about an accused person but because it is fact that they were a terrible, horrible human being on many levels - I think I would have a hard time acquitting.  Like even if you've gotten it wrong, they've done enough damage to still warrant prison time, regardless.  Anyone else ever feel like that?!

Every case is heartbreaking but it always brings a special sadness when the victim has been so good to others throughout life and it's said that the person who murdered them is exactly the type of individual that they would have gone out of their way to help.  Ugh.

So Deyonte was allowed to pontificate for 25 minutes to a captive audience at sentencing?  Why would the judge have let that go on?  If I had been part of the victim's family, they would have had to drag me out of the courtroom because I would have been screaming every obscenity in the book at him.  

I usually give Andrea a pass but good Lord, the episode when she was wearing that mini -frilly, flounced dress and 4 inch heels to visit a murder scene??!!  Come on, lady.

[GiandujaPie]

I agree with most of what has already been said about the episode regarding Jill Su and her family. When I saw the video of Justin acting completely OTT during his interrogation, I could understand why the police was suspicious of him but he should have asked for a lawyer once he realized he was a suspect. Also, I'm not sure why the father didn't call a lawyer for him since he was in the other room and could hear a lot that was going on. I wish we could have gotten an update on what Justin ultimately did with his life but I can understand him wanting some privacy. 

[iMonrey]

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 It was disgusting to hear that they appeared to be celebrating at the defense table.  

That was a real turning point for me, honestly. You wouldn't think they'd be "celebrating" a manslaughter conviction, it reeks of them getting away with something.

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Whether you feel like the son was overly dramatic or unlikeable, imagine what he saw that day and then follow it up with 11 hours of being brutally interrogated and accused of it. What exactly would be a normal way to respond and does the trauma of it ever actually go away?

I never put a lot of stock into someone's behavior when they're calling 911 or how they're acting at the scene. People react in different ways to something that horrible and/or shocking. That said, the kid was acting pretty sketchy throughout that interrogation. That's why I said I could go either way on this case.

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I could understand why the police was suspicious of him but he should have asked for a lawyer once he realized he was a suspect. 

He should have watched more Dateline!

[Annber03]

30 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That was a real turning point for me, honestly. You wouldn't think they'd be "celebrating" a manslaughter conviction, it reeks of them getting away with something.

Yeah, I've seen plenty of stories where the lawyers will say that while they may feel justice was served when a verdict comes down, and may feel glad that they were able to help the family and friends of the victim and all that, they always talk about how they still don't celebrate the verdict, because they acknowledge there's really nothing to celebrate on either side. At the end of the day, someone's going to jail, and their family has to live with the fact that their loved one is in prison, and in there for committing a horrible crime at that. Meanwhile, another family has lost a loved one to a horrific act of violence and has to live with that, and knows their loved one is never coming back.

So yeah, even when they do get the right person and all goes as it should, it still feels weird to "celebrate" in that kind of situation. 

[Kiss my mutt]

I was really back and forth on this one and really hoped that Deyonte wasn’t the one who did it though I also didn’t want it to be Justin either. I hope he’s learned to stop living and telling lies.  I can see why it was a hung jury and good for that juror who stood by her convictions. I’d hate to think anyone’s life is held in the balance by a jury that just wants to go home and rushes to a decision. That was one of the crazier Datelines I’ve seen with him escaping the courtroom like that and the campaign for his innocence.

I like Andrea and actually like a lot of her clothes though they’re not always appropriate for the situation like the crime scene in this episode. I was like WTH, A!

Andrea looks like she may have gotten an enhancement in the bust area. Maybe after having, what, five kids, she wanted a little boost. I may be out in left field here though. 

[JudyObscure]

This episode had some of the worst police work we've seen.  I hated that detective repeating that he was always working for the victim.  does he think this poor woman wanted him to berate her son for 11 hours?  I thought Justin seemed very babyish, but many of us might act that way if we had just pulled our "Mommy," out of a bath tub of blood.

The detectives were also dense about Deyonte.  They kept thinking he couldn't have done it because his history was all just burglary.  As if someone who breaks the law in one area might not break it in another?  Deyonte seemed to have a history of getting away with little or no punishment and having all his friends act like he was a great guy, as if burglary is no big deal at all.  This may have been the first time he got caught and he was willing to take a life in a horrible way just to save his own skin.

[amarante]

I realize that family members who decline to speak to the police are viewed with suspicion but in the case of Justin there should be some kind of happy medium.

While I would certainly agree to an initial interview where I gave police as much as I could, at the point where they started shrieking at me regarding my guilt I would quietly get up and ask if I could leave. They have to let you leave unless you are under arrest and clearly he wasn't.

Even if I weren't being berated, if a loved one had just been murdered I would stop the interview after an hour or so because emotionally no one should have to deal with that on top of the trauma of grief. There is absolutely nothing that you can tell them at 3 in the morning that you can't tell them the next day if you have already told them the limited amount you know. 

Justin was a bit foolish to lie to the police but I don't think he actually thought anyone would suspect him of murdering his mother because that act is so alien to most people. He was still in the mindset of an ordinary slacker 19 year old who didn't want to let his "parents" know he wasn't diligently working or studying. What kid hasn't lied to their parent about where they are going or what they are doing. Not that you should lie to the police obviously but I think he just wasn't thinking clearly and still was of the mindset that his father would be disappointed that he still wasn't being the "model" kid.

[mythoughtis]

The House on Pitch Pine Crescent - 

75 minutes to describe the three deaths over 4 years. Only then do we hear about a custody battle that had been going on since before the first death.  I’d already figured it out when one of the children discovered the second death after school.  The  kids were living with dad even though dad had been  convicted of domestic violence and a fatal DUI.   That doesn’t happen unless the kids Mom also has issues 

The police should have been on top of this after the second death so that the third one didn't happen.   It’s always suspicious when someone dies the night before they are supposed to be in court 

Edited November 26, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Ohmo]

19 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

The House on Pitch Pine Crescent

This case was not new.  I kept waiting for there to be an update, but there wasn't.  There is NO WAY that I buy that Melissa didn't mastermind the whole thing.

This case also reminded me of a notorious case around here (that I'm actually surprised hasn't ended up on Dateline yet.  A very rural part of the state.  Also a custody battle.  One family kills 8 members of another family in three or four separate locations over the custody of a child.  The trials are ongoing.  Some family members have pleaded guilty and testified against others.  There were fake custody documents, and all sorts of planning to carry out this massacre..

Understanding the Pike County massacre

Massacre of 8 people began with plot to kill 19-year-old mom and other victims were "collateral damage," Ohio prosecutor says

Like what Melissa orchestrated, it is frightening what people will resort to for the custody of a child.

[Ohmo]

Quote

Melissa is carrying out her sentence at Grand Valley Institution for Women in Kitchener, Canada.

It was reported by the Toronto Sun that the convict even broke off her relationship with her partner in crime and married a fellow inmate at the aforementioned jailhouse.

Quote

Meanwhile, Chris is serving the rest of his sentence at Beaver Creek Institution in Gravenhurst, Ontario.

After his former partner in crime supposedly married a fellow inmate, the convict posted an advertisement to Canadian Inmates Connect stating that he was looking for love.

CRIMINAL COUPLE Where are Melissa Merritt and Chris Fattore now?

Quote

According to reports, Caleb’s last will specified one of his close cousins to be the legal guardian of young Mason and Mecaela in the event of his demise, yet it didn’t pan out. The cousin did do their best to honor his wishes, but the kids were sent to be under the care of the Merritt family — exactly who or where has never been revealed. Therefore, all we can gather is that although they are now adults, both Mason and Mecaela continue to keep their personal experiences well away from the limelight these days, all while residing around Ontario, Canada.

Where Are Melissa Merritt and Caleb Harrison’s Kids Now?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ohmo

[mythoughtis]

38 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

This case was not new.  I kept waiting for there to be an update, but there wasn't.  There is NO WAY that I buy that Melissa didn't mastermind the whole thing.

This case also reminded me of a notorious case around here (that I'm actually surprised hasn't ended up on Dateline yet.  A very rural part of the state.  Also a custody battle.  One family kills 8 members of another family in three or four separate locations over the custody of a child.  The trials are ongoing.  Some family members have pleaded guilty and testified against others.  There were fake custody documents, and all sorts of planning to carry out this massacre..

Understanding the Pike County massacre

Massacre of 8 people began with plot to kill 19-year-old mom and other victims were "collateral damage," Ohio prosecutor says

Like what Melissa orchestrated, it is frightening what people will resort to for the custody of a child.

I remember these murders, but I hadn’t heard about the custody battle.   I just can’t understand why people think they will get away with these murders, or that it will solve things   
 

We had a  few murders caused by child custody issues in central Illinois too.  Shirley Skinner, child’s great grandmother, killed the child’s father, Steven Watkins.  Then the child’s mom skipped the state with the child and her grandmother.  Even after they were caught and the grandmother convicted, the mom took off with the child again rather than give the child’s paternal grandparents visitation. 
I think Dateline covered the murder - Mystery on Horseshoe Drive.  However I doubt they covered all the custody battles between the two family’s after the trial. 
 

Another was  the Karyn Slover murder case.    

Edited November 27, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Ohmo]

House of Horrors

There's a boatload of information in this article that didn't make it into the Dateline episode.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

21 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

The House on Pitch Pine Crescent

This case was not new.  I kept waiting for there to be an update, but there wasn't.  There is NO WAY that I buy that Melissa didn't mastermind the whole thing.

This case also reminded me of a notorious case around here (that I'm actually surprised hasn't ended up on Dateline yet.  A very rural part of the state.  Also a custody battle

I know!  I've been following the trials closely on YouTube and I'm just hoping some true crime writer is working on the book, Dateline working on a two hour episode, someone else working on a Dallas-style miniseries, and Lifetime making an "I Married a Murderer" movie about the unfortunate, innocent, Mennonite,  Beth, who married Jake Wagner in Alaska, not knowing he was the prime suspect for eight murders.

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

There is NO WAY that I buy that Melissa didn't mastermind the whole thing.

I knew she was a nasty piece of work the minute she told the police, "I don't want to point fingers, but my ex was violent and hated his mother."

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I knew she was a nasty piece of work the minute she told the police, "I don't want to point fingers, but my ex was violent and hated his mother."

I said the same thing when I first saw this episode. And watching it back last night, she had this total smirk on her face the whole time that just made her look even more suspicious. 

I also love how she and her boyfriend were so openly discussing their roles in these crimes as they were. Sure, they didn't know they were being recorded, but rule #1 of getting away with murder? Keep your mouth shut. For the sake of the investigation and the people affected by the murders, thank goodness they were stupid enough to talk to each other. 

[Ohmo]

24 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I said the same thing when I first saw this episode. And watching it back last night, she had this total smirk on her face the whole time that just made her look even more suspicious. 

I can't get over how some men are willing to do whatever for a woman or a woman is willing to do whatever for a man.  Marriage equality hasn't been around long enough yet, but I'm sure we will see this same dynamic come into play in those relationships as well.  The willingness of one partner to be used by the other partner.

Melissa had children with Caleb.  It is ridiculous to the point of absurdity to believe this wasn't instigated and fueled by her, and Chris was so willing to take responsibility in order to get her a lesser charge.

[TVbitch]

Cops really have it good in Canada! I can't get over how it's totally legal for them to catfish Melissa to the point of sending the whole family on a trip to an amusement park (under the guise of being some charity), so they could break into their house and wiretap it! 

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

I can't get over how some men are willing to do whatever for a woman or a woman is willing to do whatever for a man.  Marriage equality hasn't been around long enough yet, but I'm sure we will see this same dynamic come into play in those relationships as well.  The willingness of one partner to be used by the other partner.

I don't get it, either. It's scary to realize someone can be THAT manipulative, and equally as scary to see how easily people can be manipulated to do things like this. 

The first time this episode aired, someone theorized that perhaps Melissa had all those kids to better ensure that Caleb had a harder time walking away from her. Which I could totally see her doing, and if that was part of her scheme, is pretty damn fucked up on a whole host of levels. 

[GiandujaPie]

On 11/27/2022 at 11:13 AM, Ohmo said:

House of Horrors

There's a boatload of information in this article that didn't make it into the Dateline episode.

Wow, lots of crazy stuff in that article! I cannot believe the incompetence of the medical examiner and the police! I wish Andrea had covered Bill's injuries and death more because I really can't believe that it was not ruled a homicide or suspicious death! I really think you could make a case that the other 2 murders would not have happened if Bill's death had been properly investigated. Even if they wouldn't have proven foul play in Bill's death, it might have made Melissa and her husband think twice about murdering Bridget and Caleb. I mean, you could see why they might have thought they could get away with it, because they had! 

Unbelievable that Caleb only served 3 months for that horrific DUI. And also unbelievable that Bill and Bridget were able to just substitute their names into the custody arrangement between Caleb and Melissa when Caleb went to prison. My husband, who is an attorney and has handled custody cases, says it would never happen in California. 

I do wonder why Caleb's family ultimately couldn't get custody of those 2 kids and they went to the maternal side. There was another Dateline recently where it was the same thing - the kids ultimately went to live with the side of the family of the parent who had killed the other parent.  

[GiandujaPie]

The Devil's Bathtub

I know it was a repeat but what a truly appalling crime. I just can't believe 2 kids would willingly go along with killing their father and then destroying his body and the evidence. I read a little more about the crime after watching the episode and I see that the older son is claiming there was a bad relationship and even some abuse and I think Laura tried to argue to bring abuse allegations during the trial but it was denied by the judge. However, I don't believe there was any abuse and they just made it up. Even when they interviewed the "best friend"/Laura's boyfriend, PJ Tucci, he never mentioned it and kept saying what great people Craig and Laura were. I honestly don't know why he and all of the other lawyers kept saying there was no evidence. Wasn't there DNA found on the bloody clothes that the 2 boys were trying to get rid of? And yes, PJ gave a plausible explanation for why he needed those items that they bought at Walmart, but that's a hella coincidence that those same items were then used and found at the crime scene. If those items had not been found at the crime scene, and they only had surveillance video showing them buying that stuff, I could give them that benefit of the doubt but this was beyond belief. 

Without evidence of abuse, it's just unbelievable to me that 2 sons could do this to their own father. 

[iMonrey]

Safari Story:

Bianca Rudolph is murdered by her husband while on safari in Zambia. She was hoping to bag a leopard, but alas, no game for her. 

If I live to be a thousand I will never understand the appeal of hunting animals for sport. But that's just me. In the end, the leopard had the last laugh.

Why does the show need to tell us that Bianca was deeply religious? How is that relevant to the case? Is it because her friend says she would not have wanted to be cremated because she was Catholic? Because they debunked that claim with her own will. And as far as I know, nothing in the Catholic faith precludes cremation. I never understand why these shows trot out "they went to church every Sunday!" as though it bolsters the victims' image.

Andrea to game scout: "It must have been such a shock, to see her lying there like that!"

Uh, no Andrea, it was perfectly normal, we see that all the time. Dumbass.

I can't believe Larry would tell his own daughter "I just needed a friend . . . to have sex with." Also, weird they named their daughter AnaBianca. 

Good for the son, cutting off Lori. Go Julian.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I can't believe Larry would tell his own daughter "I just needed a friend . . . to have sex with." Also, weird they named their daughter AnaBianca.

Thank you for your post. My heater(again) kicked on when they had the phone conversation. I couldn’t find the remote so as I was looking for it I thought I heard him say that but then she answered something to the effect you don’t need her you’ll always have me. 

AnaBianca became a dentist because of her dad. She appears to be a devoted daughter who thinks her dad hung the moon.  Her inner turmoil must be roiling because of the evidence and her thought that dad can do no wrong. 

I’m a bit torn about the bartender. I understand his reluctance to get involved immediately but after he learned more and more you’d think it would occur to him to let the FBI know what he heard (since he was so adamant that he heard it correctly) and then let them take it from there. 

The defense attorneys did not disappoint. I’ll leave it at that. 

I am glad Justice was finally served. And I can’t be the only one to think the good dentist greased more than a few palms for the case to be ruled a suicide as quickly as it was…
 

[TVbitch]

They've done this story before, so I skimmed but couldn't tell if there was anything new or not. 

So Bianca attended church every Sunday and enjoyed killing animals for sport. I seethed at how her friend went on about what a great shot she was, often killing animals with one shot. Ugh, I guess that means most of the time they have to shoot the poor creatures repeatedly. Good times.

Anyhoo, I also did take note of this...

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I can't believe Larry would tell his own daughter "I just needed a friend . . . to have sex with." 

To which the daughter immediately replied...."I'm your friend!!!!!" Eeeewwww. She seemed a bit over-attached to her dad. 

[Irlandesa]

I hadn't seen this story before so it was all new to me.  I have to give it to Larry.  It was very clever to murder her in a small town, in a foreign country and around guns.  I don't want to knock the Zambia police but we've seen how small towns in the US can't handle complex murders, it's a good bet they wouldn't have the right infrastructure to handle it in a small town in Zambia either.

And as a result, instead of being tried in a state court, he got tried by the feds.  And the feds do not mess around. For instance, there have been so many murders where it looks like the mistress, wife or lover was an aware of the murder and could be considered an accessory after-the-fact but don't get arrested or tried.  Had it been in PA, Lori might have walked.  But in a federal court?  Nope. 

20 minutes ago, PsychoKlown said:

I’m a bit torn about the bartender. I understand his reluctance to get involved immediately but after he learned more and more you’d think it would occur to him to let the FBI know what he heard (since he was so adamant that he heard it correctly) and then let them take it from there. 

I sort of get his initial reluctance but once he learned that the wive actually died.  Or saw that he had been arrested?  I lost patience with him.  And I was completely over him once he got irritated that his coworker called the feds without talking to him first. 

41 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Good for the son, cutting off Lori. Go Julian.

That was hilarious.  But I read somewhere that both of his kids wrote letters in support of their father.  Based on the phone calls, we know his daughter fully supports him.  But I wonder if Julian is doing it so he can get control of the business.

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

And I can’t be the only one to think the good dentist greased more than a few palms for the case to be ruled a suicide as quickly as it was…

I first saw this story on an episode of "48 Hours", and I remember being stunned when that show had revealed that the husband had NINE life insurance policies out on his wife, and for a pretty hefty chunk of money at that. I could not fathom how the hell he was able to get that many life insurance policies on her, and how nobody at the insurance company in question apparently saw that as a massive red flag well before the murder even happened. 

But yeah, clearly he knew how to manipulate the system, or try to, at least. And given his excessive life insurance on her, that indicates he was planning to kill her for some time, which makes the whole crime that much creepier. He flew alongside his wife all the way to Zambia, they went through their whole vacation together, and all the while he was plotting to kill her. 

I also love how people like him try to pass off these killings as "accidental". He's a top shot when it comes to killing animals, but somehow, he just happens to have an "oopsie daisie!" moment with his wife. Okay. So many of these shootings on these shows that happen to be an accident, supposedly, it's always amazing. Accident or not, it's proof that these people shouldn't be anywhere near a gun, let's put it that way. 

I'm also with everyone else on the stupidity of killing animals for sport. No, it's not cool, no, being a good shot in taking down an animal for that purpose doesn't make you badass or tough. It just makes you a creepy jerk who needs to find another hobby to occupy your time. And if someone is capable of taking down innocent animals like that, then it's not exactly much of a stretch to think they'd be just as capable of doing it to another human being. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Annber03

[Crashcourse]

As sad as it was that the woman was murdered, I couldn't help imagining that the wild animals in Zambia did high fives. 

[Mondrianyone]

This is one of those rare times I didn't feel sorry for the victim.

[mostlylurking]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:07 AM, iMonrey said:

Why does the show need to tell us that Bianca was deeply religious? How is that relevant to the case?

They mentioned it multiple times as if that was an ironclad reason to not want to be cremated.  I thought that was weird.  My parents are both catholic and they both want to be cremated.  My dad because it’s cheaper (he’s practical like that) and my mom because she doesn’t want to be buried underground.

On 12/3/2022 at 11:07 AM, iMonrey said:

I can't believe Larry would tell his own daughter "I just needed a friend . . . to have sex with."

I actually had to rewind that part!  I was like did he actually just say that?!

It always boggles my mind the lengths people will go for money.  I mean I’ll be honest I might think about shooting off the tip of my finger if it meant I’ll get $30k a month for years, but to kill another human being??  Just wild.