All Episodes Discussion

[Melina22]

That's what I'm thinking 

I would have listened to a 10 hour podcast on the Vallows, if I didn't already know the story. I'd listen to this podcast as well, but now I know the story, so I don't think I can do it. Or maybe I can! 😁 I've only heard it once, so I'll see. 

[iMonrey]

What I want to know is . . . what happened to the movie Tucker starred in? Did it ever get released, and if so, where? Or did they go back and reshoot it with another actress? I bet they didn't have the money to do that.

I think the fact that she went and auditioned for a film role while she was out on bail and awaiting trial says a lot about Tucker and how warped she was. Clearly she wasn't playing with a full deck.

[Annber03]

12 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think the fact that she went and auditioned for a film role while she was out on bail and awaiting trial says a lot about Tucker and how warped she was. Clearly she wasn't playing with a full deck.

My thoughts exactly. 

[Melina22]

I'd say she thinks the usual rules don't apply to her. No doubt she learned this from her mother. 

[UsernameFatigue]

20 hours ago, MooCat Pretzel said:

I know that Dateline has paraded a bunch of bizarre people across our televisions over the years, but Kelly and Tucker have to rank up there as the most “bizarriest”.  That’s right. I had to make up a new word to describe those two.  Well, throw Tucker’s dad in the mix too.  I wonder what the other two kids are like?

I watched the episode today, and paused half way through as Kelly's performance in the interrogation room was so OTT that I had to come here to read others' comments. There really should be a version of the Razzies for Worst Interrogation Performance. Tucker's (AKA a bunch of other names) was right up there as well. Though I enjoyed her performance as she left the courtroom more. Claiming she was going to pass out, then screaming as she is lead down the hallway? Yes, almost fainting is often followed by screaming. Not. 

I also loved Kelly explaining why Tucker had to hold the gun, because Kelly is half blind. Funny, I never saw Kelly in glasses once. And if it was because she wore contacts, wouldn't she be wearing them when a notary comes for papers to be signed? Also claiming that she did not understand what the form was that she ripped up. Isn't she a former lawyer? And why did she think she was signing a will? If it was her own will it would not have been a surprise, something that she would sign without making her wishes known. If it was her mother's will, she would have no reason to sign it. 

How sad that Shane had asked for someone to come out to the ranch as he feared there could be trouble, and he ends up dead. And that as he is dying, his sister and niece are upset that he is not yet dead. I can't believe that Tucker got only 6 years. And that Kelly if free as a bird to inherit all of her mother's property. Pathetic. 

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Though I enjoyed her performance as she left the courtroom more. Claiming she was going to pass out, then screaming as she is lead down the hallway? Yes, almost fainting is often followed by screaming. Not. 

I loved the reactions to that from her fellow cast and crew members who attended the trial. They were totally unimpressed and basically like, "Oh, another performance from her, gee, what a surprise :/." 

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I also loved Kelly explaining why Tucker had to hold the gun, because Kelly is half blind. Funny, I never saw Kelly in glasses once.

My mom also pointed out that she seemed to have no problem reading any documents that were handed to her while she was testifying on the stand :p. 

[Blissfool]

Ok so a couple of weeks ago Dateline aired one of its best episodes and this Friday they are one of the worst. All the characters were exhausting - even the theater cast and crew.. I enjoy attending my community theater performances. Now I wonder if they are....like this.

[Josiemae]

Did anyone else find this episode BEYOND irritating? What a bunch of loon-bags! Those parents were so smug and pretentious in every way, so no surprise their kid would turn out to be bat sh*t. 

Is this town just populated with disheveled artsy types but no hair salons? I'm guessing that (also irritating) playwright from NYC felt right at home. 

The kooky mom in the police interview with her dumpy clothes and her self-pitying braying was kinda funny. What a pathetic performance!

The poor realtor was the only sympathetic character in the whole mess.  (And doesn't her presence beg the question- why would you gun someone down in front of an impartial witness? Oh wait ... cray-cray + stupid on steroids, that's why.)

Even Keith, who I normally love, was grating.  His heavy dramatic narrative made the whole episode even more  insufferable.  (A dose of Josh's smartass cynicism and "WTF?" cocked eyebrow would have been welcome.)

It was hard to get through this one.

[TVbitch]

Dateline could do a whole theme week on two-bit actors. There was the community theater couple that were killing people to fund their wedding. The guy who had a bit part on power rangers who killed that couple on their boat. And the actor who lured people to his garage under the guise of being in his movie, but he really just wanted to kill someone. 

Shane should have insisted the signing be at that lady's office or somewhere else neutral, especially after he heard Tucker's target practice that morning. 

[BusyOctober]

17 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Dateline could do a whole theme week on two-bit actors. There was the community theater couple that were killing people to fund their wedding. The guy who had a bit part on power rangers who killed that couple on their boat. And the actor who lured people to his garage under the guise of being in his movie, but he really just wanted to kill someone. 

OMG!  I thought about 2 of 3 of the cases you mentioned while watching this one!  I forgot about the garage movie set guy, but immediately thought about that couple who killed their “friend” and his friend.  I say ‘couple’ because I fully believe that blonde actress chick had knowledge of what her smug, untalented fiancé was up to.  The other case of that poor couple murdered by Skyalr-‘I was almost a child star’and his GF is just so haunting.  What they went through on that trip to Catalina is just horrific. 
 

As for Kelly and her insane daughter Tucker, these two are sociopaths of the first order.  It’s so maddening that Kelly will still inherit the ranch. She convinced her elderly mother the murdered care taker brother was plotting against her, and she swindled her surviving sibling out of having his brother around.  Evil.  I hope one of the many cluttered pieces of Americana scattered around that property falls on Kelly and knocks her out.

[patty1h]

In regard to last nights episode WIndow of Opportunity, Michael Pagel was such a bitter and petty monster that he killed his estranged wife while she was recovering from donating a kidney to a stranger.  

The whole Pagel family is despicable -- a loving family of two brothers and a mother all know about a murder and keep this secret for years.   I'm sure you pick up on the sarcasm and disgust in that last sentence.  I particularly despise the mother who lied for her murderer son and told her other son to not say anything while she was alive.   Send her a Mother's Day card.... IN HELL!

The poor daughter finds out her dad is guilty, and as she only has him as a parental figure, she feels loyal to him.  What a terrible situation to be in.

Edited May 8, 2021 by patty1h

[Annber03]

31 minutes ago, patty1h said:

The whole Pagel family is despicable -- a loving family of two brothers and a mother all know about a murder and keep this secret for years.   I'm sure you pick up on the sarcasm and disgust in that last sentence.  I particularly despise the mother who lied for her murderer son and told her other son to not say anything while she was alive.   Send her a Mother's Day card.... IN HELL!

Agreed. And I know they ruled out any actual affair between Michael and Renee's sister Michelle, and the brother who finally revealed the secret claimed he wasn't involved, but my mom and I couldn't help feeling that there may have been at least a little truth to some of those claims. There may not have been an affair, per se, but considering how distant the two sisters were, and considering the way Michael kept constantly keeping in touch with Michelle....I dunno. I could see them being a little closer than was normal for people in that situation. It's just so strange, the way her loyalties were more with her brother-in-law and not her sister. 

And on the one hand, I can totally see Michael trying to throw his brother under the bus to save himself, because that just seems in line with the kind of guy he is in general, and I could see his brother being scared to reveal what he knew for so long if Michael had threatened him. That's not an uncommon situation, after all. 

But at the same time, I dunno, I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that even if he wasn't involved in the actual murder, he knew about it even before that meeting on the bridge. 

I dunno. I just feel like there was a little more to some of these interactions and relationships than what the show claimed. 

Speaking of the bridge, I'm amazed the investigators managed to find that knife after all that time. That's crazy. 

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The poor daughter finds out her dad is guilty, and as she only has him as a parental figure, she feels loyal to him.  What a terrible situation to be in.

Seriously, I felt so bad for her. She doesn't really seem to know who to trust or what to believe, but like you said, there's that loyalty. That's really rough. 

 

[iMonrey]

Call me crazy but I believe Michael's story that it was actually Bo who murdered Renee for money. Bo's taped phone call with the lady who ran the website made him sound so shifty and sketchy, and seemed to be motivated by a fear Michael was going to do something to him - like maybe confess they'd plotted together so he wanted to discredit him. Whenever he was asked outright if Michael killed Renee he just stammered. That whole "confession" on the bridge and the threat "if you ever tell anyone I'll do the same to you!" is classic Accomplice Excuse 101. I definitely think they were in on it together.

Edited May 9, 2021 by iMonrey

[TVbitch]

They might not have been having an affair, but I think the sister hated Renee and enjoyed spending time bad mouthing her with Mike.

It does put the daughter in a tough spot, but I still don't understand the loyalty to a murderer. If my family member pleaded guilty to murdering someone I love, our relationship would be over. Why did Andrea (and others) keep talking about how Mike could be both a murderer and a good father. Um, no, he can't. He fucking savagely murdered these kids mother for fuck's sake! 

My Andrea Canning Moment of the episode was when she was discussing the sad details of the daughter's predicament and at one point Andrea just goes, "Really?! ...I ...I have no words!" And the interview dies for a second, and then the daughter picks it back up. For a professional journalist, it was awkward.  

[Ohmo]

22 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I dunno. I just feel like there was a little more to some of these interactions and relationships than what the show claimed. 

Agreed, but I can tell you from experience that sister relationships can be extremely complicated.  My mother is completely estranged from her sister...complicated.  Michelle and Michael could have had an affair, but it could have also been just estrangement between Renee and Michelle.

Part of me felt for the daughter, but part of me didn't.  Her father may be her only parent, but he became her only parent because he killed her other parent.  Sometimes I think she was talking like Renee left or Renee died after an accident or illness.  That's not what happened, and as good of a father he might have been to her, he stabbed her mother 50 times.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ohmo

[Lsk02]

I did a bit of social media stalking on the family. It seems that the sister is actually very close to the kids, as the daughter claimed. One comment in a post sounded like the maternal grandparents had to fight their father for grandparents’ visitation rights, which kind of goes against the narrative of the father having them be a part of the kids’ lives all these years, as the daughter seemed to be telling it. The sister also has posts about bringing the murderer to justice going years back, so it seems that after her death there was some healing about their relationship. It made me feel bad that she was dragged through the mud so much on the show, when the end result was that there was no evidence of an affair and the investigators didn’t think there ever was one.

Part of me wants to be hard on the daughter for the way she seems to defend her father, but I have no idea what it would be like to be in those poor kids’ shoes. She didn’t even really understand that her mother was murdered until she was a teenager, then had to read all the accusations against the father who was still raising her online. It’s so much anyone to process, but for an adolescent, I cannot even begin to imagine.  I hope they are all in therapy now. At least she’s not like so many other adult kids we see, still in complete denial that he could have killed her mother. She’s accepted it, and likely for her only mental well-being, has found a way to compartmentalize it. 

[EtheltoTillie]

22 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Call me crazy but I believe Michael's story that it was actually Bo who murdered Renee for money. Bo's taped phone call with the lady who ran the website made him sound so shifty and sketchy, and seemed to be motivated by a fear Michael was going to do something to him - like maybe confess they'd plotted together so he wanted to discredit him. Whenever he was asked outright if Michael killed Renee he just stammered. That whole "confession" on the bridge and the threat "if you ever tell anyone I'll do the same to you!" is classic Accomplice Excuse 101. I definitely think they were in on it together.

I was thinking the same thing. Why would Mike wait four years and then suddenly confess?  

[Ohmo]

6 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

Part of me wants to be hard on the daughter for the way she seems to defend her father, but I have no idea what it would be like to be in those poor kids’ shoes. She didn’t even really understand that her mother was murdered until she was a teenager, then had to read all the accusations against the father who was still raising her online.

My response to that is "Then, don't go on Dateline." While Sarah is correct that very few people know what it's like to be her, she chose to put herself out there. Her brother and sister did not (which to me is the much smarter play if their feelings match hers). Those kids can feel however they want to among their family in private, but however much she wants to make it seem otherwise (whether Bo was involved or not) , she was defending a murderer.  Her father brought about the murder of her mother. Full stop, and her trying to publicly paint him as a terrific single parent was gross. He made himself a single parent.  She also said that he made his children the people they are today. For her sake, let's hope he screwed that up...because his family seemed to be made of little that was good.

[UsernameFatigue]

I have no problem believing that Michael was the murderer, not Bo. If Michael was going to have his brother murder his ex, why would he not give himself an alibi that included his mother and kids awake and interacting with him. rather than have the murder happen when everyone is sleeping? Even his mother said that she heard the door opening and closing, and thought the dog was being let out an in. But she had no idea if Michael was there the whole time or not. Nor did the kids. How many times have we seen a person hire someone else to murder a spouse, etc.? Lots, And the person doing the hiring pretty much always has an airtight alibi.  How To Have Someone Else Kill Your Spouse 101. 

It sounds like Bo only waited the length of time he did because he promised his mother than he would not tell until after she had passed. But if he killed Renee, why would he lead police to where the murder weapon was? And bring it up at all, knowing that his brother would not take the wrap alone for something he did? 

I think the right killer is right where he should be. Too bad the original investigators hadn't noticed the matching flashlights, among other things. Bo may not have liked Renee, and not wanted his brother to marry her, but I don't think he would have any reason to stab her 50 times. Michael did, because his gravy train was coming to an end, and he was not getting what he wanted out of the divorce in the form of the family home, child support and alimony. 

[Tdoc72]

4 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I have no problem believing that Michael was the murderer, not Bo. If Michael was going to have his brother murder his ex, why would he not give himself an alibi that included his mother and kids awake and interacting with him. rather than have the murder happen when everyone is sleeping? Even his mother said that she heard the door opening and closing, and thought the dog was being let out an in. But she had no idea if Michael was there the whole time or not. Nor did the kids. How many times have we seen a person hire someone else to murder a spouse, etc.? Lots, And the person doing the hiring pretty much always has an airtight alibi.  How To Have Someone Else Kill Your Spouse 101. 

It sounds like Bo only waited the length of time he did because he promised his mother than he would not tell until after she had passed. But if he killed Renee, why would he lead police to where the murder weapon was? And bring it up at all, knowing that his brother would not take the wrap alone for something he did? 

I think the right killer is right where he should be. Too bad the original investigators hadn't noticed the matching flashlights, among other things. Bo may not have liked Renee, and not wanted his brother to marry her, but I don't think he would have any reason to stab her 50 times. Michael did, because his gravy train was coming to an end, and he was not getting what he wanted out of the divorce in the form of the family home, child support and alimony. 

All great points!  I believed Bo and think Michael was solo guilty. 

[Tabbygirl521]

I think the daughter may still be processing everything. The conviction was relatively recent in the overall picture. I cannot imagine having to reconcile the person she always experienced as a loving dad with the monster who stabbed her mother. It may take awhile.

I was impressed that she held no ill will toward her mom’s friends, who fought so hard for justice. She may still love the dad she thought she knew but it’s not a blind love or loyalty.

I was transfixed throughout by her beautiful, expressive eyes. She seemed so very open and honest. It was hard to see her pain but it seemed so important to her to try to convey her seemingly confusing emotions in the wake of this tragedy. I hope she is still close with her siblings. 

[iMonrey]

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Why did Andrea (and others) keep talking about how Mike could be both a murderer and a good father. Um, no, he can't. 

No duh. The very definition of "bad father" is one that kills your mother. I mean, it doesn't get much badder than that.

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I have no problem believing that Michael was the murderer, not Bo. If Michael was going to have his brother murder his ex, why would he not give himself an alibi that included his mother and kids awake and interacting with him. rather than have the murder happen when everyone is sleeping?

Maybe they went to the house together, maybe Michael drove Bo there. Who knows? But Bo is the creeper who Renee was afraid of since the wedding day and who she didn't want left alone with her daughter. He's probably the one who came up with the idea. Maybe Michael turned him down at first and then changed his mind after the judge ruled against him. All I know is that story about confessing on the bridge sounded phony as hell, and I don't believe for one second Bo was afraid of Michael. Everyone else was afraid of Bo.

I'm not saying Michael is innocent, I'm just saying I totally believe Bo was involved.

Edited May 10, 2021 by iMonrey

[UsernameFatigue]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

No duh. The very definition of "bad father" is one that kills your mother. I mean, it doesn't get much badder than that.

Maybe they went to the house together, maybe Michael drove Bo there. Who knows? But Bo is the creeper who Renee was afraid of since the wedding day and who she didn't want left alone with her daughter. He's probably the one who came up with the idea. Maybe Michael turned him down at first and then changed his mind after the judge ruled against him. All I know is that story about confessing on the bridge sounded phony as hell, and I don't believe for one second Bo was afraid of Michael. Everyone else was afraid of Bo.

I'm not saying Michael is innocent, I'm just saying I totally believe Bo was involved.

The police investigated Bo as far as I remember the first time and he had a solid alibi. They also investigated him after Michael pleaded guilty but then said Bo did it, and found no evidence what-so-ever to link him to the murder. Lots of people think that certain family members are creepy, but it doesn't make the family members  killers. 

Both the police and Renee's friends knew that Michael killed Renee, Even Renee herself told her friend's mother that if anything happened to her,  Michael did it. Heck, Michael did not make it a secret that he hated Renee, and he wrote pages to the effect and hid them. His phrasing that she was a problem (to paraphrase) to be eliminated was similar to what he told Bo on the bridge when he threw the knife off it - that that is how he finalized his divorce. 

In the end, Bo is the one who broke the case open. He contacted Renee's friend, and ultimately told police that Michael confessed to him. The police would not have any proof if not for Bo, so why would he take the chance that his involvement would be uncovered when the case remained unsolved all those years?

I do wonder if the other two kids have anything to do with Father Of the Year? His daughter said herself that they moved constantly, and it was hard for her to make friends because of moving, and because her father was the only suspect in the murder. He got what he wanted -sole custody of the kids, and no ex to deal with. The kids got a motherless childhood/adulthood. 

[TVbitch]

Did anyone watch the Weekend Mystery rerun they showed Saturday night? I'd forgotten how it ended. Still can't help but think Bambi and/or the boyfriend had something to do with it.  

[iMonrey]

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They also investigated him after Michael pleaded guilty but then said Bo did it, and found no evidence what-so-ever to link him to the murder.

But they had already given Bo immunity in exchange for his testimony, so it really behooved them to "find no evidence" that Bo was involved after the fact.

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Both the police and Renee's friends knew that Michael killed Renee, Even Renee herself told her friend's mother that if anything happened to her,  Michael did it. 

I'm not saying he didn't. That doesn't preclude the idea that Bo was an accomplice or even the hired gun.

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In the end, Bo is the one who broke the case open. He contacted Renee's friend, and ultimately told police that Michael confessed to him. The police would not have any proof if not for Bo, so why would he take the chance that his involvement would be uncovered when the case remained unsolved all those years?

Bo broke the case open but only admitted he knew Michael did it after he was granted immunity. As to why, I have already posited that he suspected Michael was going to throw him under the bus and wanted to get there first.

I'm sorry but I just can't get past that phony bridge story. "If you tell anyone I'll do the same to you!" is right out of Scooby Doo.

[UsernameFatigue]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But they had already given Bo immunity in exchange for his testimony, so it really behooved them to "find no evidence" that Bo was involved after the fact.

I'm not saying he didn't. That doesn't preclude the idea that Bo was an accomplice or even the hired gun.

Bo broke the case open but only admitted he knew Michael did it after he was granted immunity. As to why, I have already posited that he suspected Michael was going to throw him under the bus and wanted to get there first.

I'm sorry but I just can't get past that phony bridge story. "If you tell anyone I'll do the same to you!" is right out of Scooby Doo.

Bo was given immunity because he could have been charged with withholding evidence by not telling the police in 2010 what he knew.  He withheld that info because his mother asked him to. He told police 6 months after his mother died. 

Bo never had to testify because Michael and his lawyer approached the prosecution for a deal. It wasn't until Michael was in court at his plea hearing that he implicated Bo. He had plenty of time before hand to say that his brother was the actual killer. He didn't. He said he agreed to pay Bo  $100,000. The police found no evidence that Bo had anything to do with it, including I would guess Bo becoming $100,000 richer.

Michael told Bo on the bridge "I f**ked her up, and if you tell anyone I will f**k you up too". Sounds exactly like I would expect a cold blooded killer to talk to someone that he has just confessed to. I  don't watch cartoons (didn't even as a child) so have no idea if Scooby Doo would have made the same threat. 

 

 

[iMonrey]

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The police found no evidence that Bo had anything to do with it, including I would guess Bo becoming $100,000 richer.

If you believe everything the police say, you must be new to Dateline.

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Michael told Bo on the bridge "I f**ked her up, and if you tell anyone I will f**k you up too". Sounds exactly like I would expect a cold blooded killer to talk to someone that he has just confessed to

Again, anyone who has watched as many Datelines as I have would recognize that as the most common excuse given by an accomplice. "I had to do it! He threatened to kill me!" Please. 

[UsernameFatigue]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:53 PM, iMonrey said:

If you believe everything the police say, you must be new to Dateline.

Again, anyone who has watched as many Datelines as I have would recognize that as the most common excuse given by an accomplice. "I had to do it! He threatened to kill me!" Please. 

I have watched Dateline for many years. Also 20/20, 48 Hours, Forensic Files, Paula Zahn, pretty much every and any true crime show going. Have also posted on these forums for years, going back to TWOP days. Anyone who has watched as many true crime shows as I have would know that murderers often threaten to kill the people who know they have murdered someone. Heck, they even sometimes end up murdering those people as well. Oh, and that there are good cops who actually have done what they said they have done. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by UsernameFatigue

[TVbitch]

Was Friday night's episode about the sinus doctor a rerun. I didn't remember it until the end with him in the tent and slicing his throat, and then it rang a bell. In any case, I had a bit of trouble feeling sorry for the wife. She really enjoyed the planes, trips, jewelry, boats, and having 3 elaborate weddings in different countries without worrying about just how he might have been making all that money ...until he scammed her, then she needed justice! 

[Melina22]

Yes, they've done the story before. This one added info on what Mark is doing now, and how some of his victims, including his ex-wife, are doing. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

She really enjoyed the planes, trips, jewelry, boats, and having 3 elaborate weddings in different countries without worrying about just how he might have been making all that money

.He had a clinic with his name on it. He was 11 years older than she was.  She had her own thing going on career-wise that was different from what he was doing.  She probably had no idea what a reasonable income from that kind of place should be.

Most people who are young and in love aren't going to think  fraud when someone who is in a profession known for making money spends money.

I loved that she got her PhD and one of his victims is about to become an MD.

[For Cereals]

I cannot believe that he only served 5 years and is out there calling himself a yoga doc now (although the video was not a good advertisement).  I really hope someone can talk some sense into the new, young wife unless she’s just convinced he’s changed.  He seems like a true sociopath or ASPD.  I’m glad everyone has moved on, but I don’t think they got real justice.

[Crashcourse]

He was older but it's not like she was a young, innocent 18 year old.  And yes, his name was on the clinic, but even so, she should have been a little suspicious that a sinus doctor would have so much money.  My take on her was that, even if she was suspicious, she didn't want to know any details because of the lavish lifestyle she was enjoying.   So I didn't have any sympathy for her, she was not like the other victims.  

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Crashcourse said:

He was older but it's not like she was a young, innocent 18 year old.  And yes, his name was on the clinic, but even so, she should have been a little suspicious that a sinus doctor would have so much money. 

I was thinking the same thing. He's got a sinus clinic just outside Chicago. Doctors make a pretty good living, sure, but that kind of doctor being able to afford private jets and yachts and all those super extravagant trips? No. If he were a doctor for celebrities, or worked at a really prestigious medical office, maybe, that would be one thing, but this, I agree, should've been a red flag. I can buy a doctor of his sort making enough to afford the occasional trip to another country, or having a nice boat that they can take on Lake Michigan or something, but anything extravagant beyond that, no way. The only other explanations for that kind of extravagance are either a) he's from a wealthy family/had other kinds of investments or another high-paying job that helped supplement his funds, or b) he's a fraudster. 

Course, I'm also probably jaded after seeing so many of these kinds of stories. It's to the point now where I'm always automatically wary of guys who go so overboard with the luxury gifts and whatnot. Diamonds, numerous trips to fancy places, yachts, stuff like that...it's just all too damn showy and every single time it turns out to be, at best, nothing more than the guy trying to show off or make himself seem like more than he really is, or at worst, a sign that he's a con man and getting those fancy things through illegal means. And the gifts he gives the woman are never something tailored specifically to what she'd like, either, it's always the stereotypical "Hey, you women like jewelry and fancy, expensive things, right?" There's just no genuine romance in that kind of thing, it's all flash and no substance. Obviously there are women who do genuinely like those kinds of things, of course, but it just seems like that's always the automatic go-to with these kinds of guys no matter who it is they're dating. 

7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

She really enjoyed the planes, trips, jewelry, boats, and having 3 elaborate weddings in different countries without worrying about just how he might have been making all that money ...until he scammed her, then she needed justice! 

I did have to laugh at her immediately tracking his movements once she got home, though. Yeah, dude, you leave a woman high and dry like that, they're going to try and hunt you down and demand answers at some point. For a guy who thought he was so savvy with his crimes, he sure made a lot of stupid blunders that allowed people more chance to track him down. 

5 hours ago, For Cereals said:

I’m glad everyone has moved on, but I don’t think they got real justice.

They definitely didn't. I felt for Peggy as she looked at the video of what he was doing now and lamented "the unfairness of it all". Pretty much sums it up. I felt so bad for her, for Shaun (geez, first she loses her dad and then she loses her mom, and then she has to fight to help keep her house), and for poor Kayla and her mom as well. He absolutely deserved a HELL of a lot more time for the pain and misery he put them through. A woman died because of his negligence. 

But hey, so long as the insurance companies get their part of things resolved, I guess it's all good, then :/. And of course he'd start up his whole scheme again. He got a slap on the wrist and a reminder that he can get away with this again. It's so infuriating to see arrogant assholes like that beat the system time and time again. 

5 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I loved that she got her PhD and one of his victims is about to become an MD.

That was awesome, yes :D. Good for them. I wish all those affected by this creep the best going forward with their lives. Hopefully someday he'll finally get the proper justice he deserves. 

[eel21788]

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Course, I'm also probably jaded after seeing so many of these kinds of stories. It's to the point now where I'm always automatically wary of guys who go so overboard with the luxury gifts and whatnot. Diamonds, numerous trips to fancy places, yachts, stuff like that...it's just all too damn showy and every single time it turns out to be, at best, nothing more than the guy trying to show off or make himself seem like more than he really is, or at worst, a sign that he's a con man and getting those fancy things through illegal means. 

You just describe Addumb Busby of Outdaughtered.

[iMonrey]

I hadn't seen the sinus doc/yoga doc one before. Can't believe that human piece of garbage only got four or five years. 

Monica was kind of . . . scary, no?

Quote

I did have to laugh at her immediately tracking his movements once she got home, though. Yeah, dude, you leave a woman high and dry like that, they're going to try and hunt you down and demand answers at some point.

What piqued my curiosity is how she could afford a plane ticket to Paris when she claimed to have only $1500 to her name and was struggling to pay the utility bills. 

Quote

I had a bit of trouble feeling sorry for the wife. She really enjoyed the planes, trips, jewelry, boats, and having 3 elaborate weddings in different countries without worrying about just how he might have been making all that money ...until he scammed her, then she needed justice!

Wasn't she studying to be a psychologist? Physician, heal thyself.

[Annber03]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What piqued my curiosity is how she could afford a plane ticket to Paris when she claimed to have only $1500 to her name and was struggling to pay the utility bills. 

My mom and I wondered about that, too. 

[Lsk02]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

Monica was kind of . . . scary, no?

Every time Monica was on the screen she reminded me of a character in 50 First Dates. And I feel like a terrible human being for saying that. 

[eel21788]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What piqued my curiosity is how she could afford a plane ticket to Paris when she claimed to have only $1500 to her name and was struggling to pay the utility bills. 

Best guess is either she put it on an already over-charged credit card or used frequent flyer miles.

[pdlinda]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What piqued my curiosity is how she could afford a plane ticket to Paris when she claimed to have only $1500 to her name and was struggling to pay the utility bills. 

True. Maybe she had credit cards?  Maybe family lent her the $$$?

What piqued MY interest is how the dirty-dog doctor is making ends meet NOW???  They said he got permission from parole to live in FL near his dad (who must have some form of dementia to even glance in the direction of his errant, slimy son), but I digress. 

How is he paying his monthly bills with the wife and child?  Where does his steady, reliable and consistent income come from? Surely not that cockamamy "yoga video" gig that didn't even accept the reporter's credit card?  It is INFURIATING that he is living a comfortable life after the misery and torment he caused so many others!!

[LemonSoda]

I’ve followed the sinus doc case since the beginning. Vanity Fair did a good piece on it that filled in some of the gaps because there’s so much more to this case. 

Michelle had recently miscarried, her life with him looks beautiful in photos, video but the reality wasn’t great. She didn’t have a checkbook, credit card or even see bills. He gave her cash for everything. 

To get home from Greece she borrowed money from an Aunt. She borrowed it to go look for him too. There was a lot of love bombing, gaslighting in the relationship that contributed to her being oblivious for so long. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by LemonSoda

[Crashcourse]

I didn't get the impression she was being kept hostage, so no check book, credit card, and not seeing bills would have raised huge flags.   At some point you have to take responsibility for your own (in)actions, so I still think she was purposely oblivious because she liked the lifestyle. 

[UsernameFatigue]

5 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I didn't get the impression she was being kept hostage, so no check book, credit card, and not seeing bills would have raised huge flags.   At some point you have to take responsibility for your own (in)actions, so I still think she was purposely oblivious because she liked the lifestyle. 

I agree. She was in her early 30s when he dumped her, and was in school studying psychology. You would think that she may have come across one or two personality disorders that maybe should have reminded her of her husband. In addition he was facing over 300 lawsuits at the time he disappeared. She knew about them, but thought he was innocent in all cases. She was not naive, she was willingly ignorant. Until she became a victim of sorts herself. 

[TVbitch]

Friday's show about the missing/murdered military wife was kind of a slog. It was obvious the husband did it immediately, but the whole thing was kind of muddled. Lots of talk about how the victim so fun and energetic and "lit up a room," but then only passing mentions about her having Borderline Personality Disorder and how that manifested. Very little about the husband's background. Why did he marry someone with serious mental health issues, who was abusing her medication, so quickly? 

I don't understand the one female friend who was on the phone with her the night she was killed. Your friend says her husband has assaulted her and she's scared, and you tell her to lock herself in her room and just "make it to the morning." Um, how about telling her to call the police or you calling the police! Especially after she says he's coming and she has to quickly hang up the phone, and then you don't hear from her again. WTF?! Maybe the victim was prone to being overly dramatic about their fights and the friend didn't know what to think, but still....

 

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Maybe the victim was prone to being overly dramatic about their fights and the friend didn't know what to think, but still....

I think that's where glossing over borderline personality disorder probably didn't tell the full picture of what it was like to be her friend and why they might not always take her first account. 

And did his new girlfriend ever go out to the freezer?  I don't know about you guys but if I had a big chest freezer in the garage, I'd want to use it.

I had to laugh at the lawyer using "MN Nice" as a defense for his defendant.  "He was MN nice."  MN nice isn't always actually nice.  It's all about hiding the true vicious opinion under vague statements like "that's interesting."

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Irlandesa

[TVbitch]

40 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I had to laugh at the lawyer using "MN Nice" as a defense

Not to mention the lawyer explaining away the mixture of his and her blood on the knife as him innocently using it as part of his military gear and then her using it to cut with ...which of course required him to store the knife in the attic. ...under the insulation! 

[For Cereals]

4 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I don't understand the one female friend who was on the phone with her the night she was killed. Your friend says her husband has assaulted her and she's scared, and you tell her to lock herself in her room and just "make it to the morning." Um, how about telling her to call the police or you calling the police! Especially after she says he's coming and she has to quickly hang up the phone, and then you don't hear from her again. WTF?! Maybe the victim was prone to being overly dramatic about their fights and the friend didn't know what to think, but still...

This!  Even if she was prone to drama, why not just call 911 if nothing else to have it documented.  Ask for a wellness check so they have to lay eyes on her.

As for the cutting with the knife, it seems like she was very open with everyone about doing it so no need to hide the knife in the attic.  I’m glad the jury didn’t go for that.

If they had started with the call to the friend and the abuse allegations, this could’ve been an hour long episode.  I’m sad for her children.

[Annber03]

Keith, narrating the part where he laid out what the husband had likely done to his wife: "And he would've gotten away with it, too..."

Me: "...if it weren't for those meddling kids!" 

7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I don't understand the one female friend who was on the phone with her the night she was killed. Your friend says her husband has assaulted her and she's scared, and you tell her to lock herself in her room and just "make it to the morning." Um, how about telling her to call the police or you calling the police! Especially after she says he's coming and she has to quickly hang up the phone, and then you don't hear from her again. WTF?! Maybe the victim was prone to being overly dramatic about their fights and the friend didn't know what to think, but still....

My mom was wondering the same thing. I can see her being used to calls like this and thinking this would just be another instance like that, but yeah, even so.... I imagine she's dealing with a lot of regret to this day over not doing that, though... She looked pretty wracked with guilt during the interview.

Agreed on the "Minnesota nice" argument, what an incredibly stupid, weak defense. I've been to Minnesota many times (I live in Iowa, we've taken vacations and trips up that way), and yes, there are indeed a lot of very nice people in that state. But trust me, if some of the news stories I've heard over the years are anything to go by, there's some real assholes up that way, too. 

3 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Not to mention the lawyer explaining away the mixture of his and her blood on the knife as him innocently using it as part of his military gear and then her using it to cut with ...which of course required him to store the knife in the attic. ...under the insulation! 

That struck me odd, too. And the whole thing with them arguing that the blood on the floor was from her cutting herself...from my understanding about those who self-harm that way, they generally don't cut deep enough to the point of causing THAT much blood to spill on the floor. The cuts are usually more shallow. If they're cutting deep enough to cause that amount of blood to spill, they're likely suicidal. And since Liz's body was not found in or near the room where the blood was spilled, then clearly this wasn't the result of her her trying to commit suicide by cutting or something to that effect. 

7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Friday's show about the missing/murdered military wife was kind of a slog. It was obvious the husband did it immediately

The way Keith kept making a point early on of mentioning that the husband's family was coming to stay over, and given his comments about how he needed that carpet cleaner because of his mom visiting, I was wondering if we'd learn that the husband's family was somehow in on the murder at some point. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Annber03

[sainte-chapelle]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think that's where glossing over borderline personality disorder probably didn't tell the full picture of what it was like to be her friend and why they might always take her first account. 

And did his new girlfriend ever go out to the freezer?  I don't know about you guys but if I had a big chest freezer in the garage, I'd want to use it.

I had to laugh at the lawyer using "MN Nice" as a defense for his defendant.  "He was MN nice."  MN nice isn't always actually nice.  It's all about hiding the true vicious opinion under vague statements like "that's interesting."

 

The poor girl was a mess. She needed help and I feel her so called friends contributed to the problem. That male friend who slyly half admitted to introducing her to Tinder strikes me as someone who loves the drama...and the cameras. 
the defence attorney was obnoxious and Keith’s face told me that he shares my opinion.

Edited May 23, 2021 by sainte-chapelle

[pdlinda]

1 hour ago, sainte-chapelle said:

The poor girl was a mess. She needed help and I feel her so called friends contributed to the problem. That male friend who slyly half admitted to introducing her to Tinder strikes me as someone who loves the drama...and the cameras. 
the defence attorney was obnoxious and Keith’s face told me that he shares my opinion.

I would still like a reasonable explanation for the discrepancy in the time of the murder and the body washing up on the shore 2 yrs later.  The freezer scenario doesn't hold weight with me because with all the traffic in the house through the years it simple seems implausible.