All Episodes Discussion

[MsJamieDornan]

11 hours ago, Jeeves said:

but I have a low tolerance for Savannah Guthrie.

Totally agree.

[cooksdelight]

I tried watching this episode and it literally made me nauseous. I switched to 20/20.

[Ohwell]

I missed the first half hour so was there any mention of where were the parents of these young girls?  Admittedly, I haven't read details about the Epstein mess, but I've wondered how the girls were able to be away from home without the parents noticing that they were gone.  

[TVbitch]

While I appreciate that Savannah Guthrie is not pulled, plumped, and botoxed within an inch of her life, her vocal fry makes me almost miss Andrea Canning. ... ... Calm down, I said ALMOST!! :)

Okay, so yes, everyone should be accountable. But doesn't that include Virginia, who took gobs of money, recruited a bunch of new girls for JE and then did not really come forward until the very end.  

[One Tough Cookie]

n/m this computer is crazy

Edited September 21, 2019 by One Tough Cookie

[One Tough Cookie]

On 9/10/2019 at 9:51 PM, 12catcrazy said:

All sorts of people to hate on here.  Fotis - man, he really seems to think he is going to get away with this.  He probably dumped his wife's body where he assumes she is never going to found, so no body, no case.  Maybe his lawyer will suggest that she is vacationing with Kathie Durst!   "Gone Girl" blah - will most people believe that a mother of 5 kids who is already concerned that her husband is going to take off with the kids to Greece, just up and disapear?  And how can that fucking lawyer sleep at night?  He has got to know that his client killed his wife, yet he can blithly come up with "Gone Girl"?  You really hope there is karma because that guy will have plenty to answer for.

Also, Dateline left out some recent news in the case.  Apparently, Fotis told the employee who owned the red truck to remove and replace the vehicle's seating.  He also wanted the vehicle's interior cleaned.  I dont know if the police located the original seats.  

My bet is that they are going to have to offer the girlfriend a really sweet deal to get her to tell all.  She apparently comes from a wealthy family also, so will have a good lawyer.

When the news if this case first broke, I said to my companion - this is going to make Dateline!  It has it all - good looking rich people who were living the dream, adultery, child custody issues, family strife - like it was a dream Dateline story.  I just really hope the girlfriend flips and can tell the cops what happened to Jennifer.

I read the the person who put in the new seats saw the blood and kept them in case the cops needed them for evidence.

Edited September 21, 2019 by One Tough Cookie

[ChristmasJones]

I think there is a way to move beyond the false dichotomy of so-called "victim blaming" -- meaning, if one says anything negative about the victim, it is "victim blaming," and only positive things can be said about a victim of crime. 

Victimology is an examination/study of the victim of a crime. One of the aspects of a victim profile is vulnerability - assessing what made this particular victim vulnerable to the crime.

All of us are vulnerable in different ways, some which we have control over, and others we don't.

Simply being female increases a person's vulnerability to being murdered.  Living in a high crime area increases vulnerability. Choosing to walk home alone increases vulnerability. Choosing to drink large amounts of alcohol at a party increases vulnerability.  Younger people don't have the benefit of more life experience that older people do, so that increased their vulnerability. 

A victim's vulnerability makes him/her an easier target for a predator. 

Like others in this thread, I made some (in retrospect) very risky choices in college. Not a huge amount, but in each case, had a predatory person been interested in doing something bad to me, they would have been able to.

Edited September 22, 2019 by ChristmasJones

[iMonrey]

Quote

I missed the first half hour so was there any mention of where were the parents of these young girls? 

The main one, Viriginia, was a runaway. A lot of the others also came from broken homes.

I eventually turned this off although I saw most of it. I'm not really interested in this. Go back to wives killed by their husbands in the middle of a bitter divorce and/or custody battle, Dateline!

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The main one, Viriginia, was a runaway. A lot of the others also came from broken homes.

I eventually turned this off although I saw most of it. I'm not really interested in this. Go back to wives killed by their husbands in the middle of a bitter divorce and/or custody battle, Dateline!

Ok, thanks.  

[One Tough Cookie]

Joyce Mitchell, the woman who helped the NY convicts  escape,was denied parole for the third time Sept. 13.  Not a lucky Friday 13 for her!

I think she's going to serve her whole sentence--and she got off lightly, IMO

Edited September 22, 2019 by One Tough Cookie

[iMonrey]

What is her whole sentence? Escape from Dannemora was excellent, BTW.

[KittyMom4]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:50 PM, Jeeves said:

I feel like an outlier here, because I think she's considered to be America's Sweetheart or something, but I have a low tolerance for Savannah Guthrie. I'll pass on the Epstein episode and glean the wisdom from it that is shared by the discerning members of this forum. Thanks in advance. 

Can I sit with you? I've never understood the draw she has.

[ButterQueen]

PAM HUPP CASE ON DATELINE TONIGHT

2 HOURS

KEITH MORRISON

[cooksdelight]

I am loving this so far. Keith is the perfect host for this. 

[Annber03]

I remember this story now. It'd been a while since I'd seen this one, though, so I blanked on Hupp's connection to it all.

But yeah, little tip for people like Pam who hope to get away with a crime: If somebody you know dies, and you're injecting yourself into a case to appear "helpful" and are trying to paint yourself as the innocent friend, maybe don't mention that the deceased made you the beneficiary of their life insurance policy not long before they died. I could just imagine the investigators hearing that tidbit and going, "Oh, really, now?" 

ETA: Taking back the money from a trust fund doesn't help your innocence, either. Wow, what an idiot. 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Annber03

[biakbiak]

9 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

you the beneficiary of their life insurance policy not long before they died. I could just imagine the investigators hearing that tidbit and going, "Oh, really, now?" 

Except they didn’t and continued the prosecution of someone with a totally solid alibi.

[Annber03]

True, but I imagine that still raised eyebrows with a few people on Russ' side, at least. 

It is strange, though, yes, that they didn't zero in on her sooner,'cause she clearly doesn't know when to shut up. Her comment when trying to claim she and Betsy had a relationship: "I mean, I like men, I can't wait until Magic Mike XXL comes out, but..." Take it down a few notches, lady, you're overselling it now. 

[biakbiak]

26 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

True, but I imagine that still raised eyebrows with a few people on Russ' side, at least. 

It did but the judge refused to let them bring it up at trial or her cell phone records etc. 

[Annber03]

Just now, biakbiak said:

It did but the judge refused to let them bring it up at trial or her cell phone records etc. 

So I saw, yeah. Wonder if that judge is regretting that decision now. I hope so. This woman is truly the definition of a bitch. Using that poor incapacitated man in her scheme like that...that is brutally cold.

[cooksdelight]

Bic pens has a whole new advertising concept. 

“Our pens are tough, but not tough enough to kill yourself with.”

She’s crazier than a shithouse rat.

[Annber03]

Alford plea. Damn, that is slick. 

I like how her defense attorney could barely keep a straight face when trying to lay out his defense of her. Like, even he doesn't seem to buy the argument he's trying to sell.

And then that ending. Good lord. What a piece of work. I hope she rots. 

[Lsk02]

I was really hoping for an update on how Betsey’s family feels about all of this now. I guess it is hard that they have to relive her murder with each headline, but it bothered me how much they were against Russ. I remember her girls spoke out against him in previous shows, as well. 

Pam is the definition of evil. 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Lsk02

[MsJamieDornan]

The story just kept getting more bizarre.

[LittleIggy]

That bitch Pam is pure evil. What she did to that mentally disabled man was beyond garden variety sociopathy. I’m glad technology has made it more difficult to pull off crimes. On a shallow note, that DA in the second hour was hot! 😏

[shlbycindyk]

About the Pam Hupp case:  I just wanted to reach through my TV and slap the smug look off her face.  I could not believe the original D.A. didn't look at her more closely rather than trying to pin the murder on the husband.  I was happy to hear at the end that he had been voted out and the new prosecutor was looking at reopening the case.  If they had done their jobs during the investigation into the murder of Betsy Faria, two lives could have been saved.  I firmly believe that Hupp also killed her mother.  I couldn't believe the medical examiner that did her mother's autopsy didn't think it was unusual for her to have over ten times the therapeutic dose of Ambien in her system and ruled it an accidental death. I have a feeling we're going to be seeing Hupp on Dateline again in the future.

[Annber03]

8 minutes ago, shlbycindyk said:

I firmly believe that Hupp also killed her mother.  I couldn't believe the medical examiner that did her mother's autopsy didn't think it was unusual for her to have over ten times the therapeutic dose of Ambien in her system and ruled it an accidental death.

I'm surprised nobody thought to look into her for that sooner considering she was sitting there openly stating to an interrogator that if she really wanted money, it would've been easier to off her mom, since she had more in life insurance.

And then not long after that, her mom winds up dead in an unusual "accident". Nobody thought that "coincidence" seemed just a wee bit suspicious? 

[Tabbygirl521]

“Pamishness.” God, what a loathesome piece of crap. This is an AMAZING episode. I remembered the original murder of Betsy but didn’t know the rest of the story. 

[MsJamieDornan]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

On a shallow note, that DA in the second hour was hot! 😏

Damn right ! wow

[sskrill]

I don't find him personally attractive, but every time he was on screen all I could think was that he looked like a model in a print ad for a VERY expensive product.  

Also - I agree that I would have liked to hear what Betsy's family says now - after Pam claimed she and Betsy were having an affair ... still think Russ is guilty mom?

Its hard to believe she ever fooled anyone with that smirk, her tone of voice, and all those inappropriate comments.  How the hell was she overlooked??

[biakbiak]

9 hours ago, sskrill said:

Also - I agree that I would have liked to hear what Betsy's family says now - after Pam claimed she and Betsy were having an affair ... still think Russ is guilty mom?

I don’t know if now with all of her additional crimes they think he’s guilty but they still did after she made those claims.

Edited September 28, 2019 by biakbiak

[LakeGal]

I have been waiting for this update on Pam Hupp.  Keith was the perfect one to do it.

It was funny we were watching and commenting on how more than one guy had a dimpled chin in this case.  Then the second DA showed up with his dimpled chin and we laughed.  We kept referring to him as Superman since he reminded us of an actor who would play that part.

I really wanted an update on Betsy's family too.  How could the mother not realize that Russ is now innocent and Pam killed her daughter. 

Pam is just pure evil. 

[Tabbygirl521]

10 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

That bitch Pam is pure evil. What she did to that mentally disabled man was beyond garden variety sociopathy. I’m glad technology has made it more difficult to pull off crimes. On a shallow note, that DA in the second hour was hot! 😏

I was noticing that this episode had an unusually high ratio of attractive men - nice to look at and doing good work! That DA especially caught my eye, too. 

[LakeGal]

I loved that everyone that lived around Pam knew of her history.  The fact they were all asking that cop if he knew that she was THAT Pam Hupp.  

[One Tough Cookie]

JESUS TAAP DANCING CHRIST--HOW DID I MISS THIS??????????????????????????????

{hIi Keith, it's good to know you read us! ;)

Edited September 28, 2019 by One Tough Cookie

[Lsk02]

21 minutes ago, LakeGal said:

I loved that everyone that lived around Pam knew of her history.  The fact they were all asking that cop if he knew that she was THAT Pam Hupp.  

In St. Louis and the surrounding areas, her face has been the top news story for years. The mug shot with the bandages haunted me because I couldn’t turn on the TV without seeing it. She is very well known and even before Louis’ murder, would have been recognized on the street. 

As a side note, it was actually a local investigative reporter and a newspaper journalist who really got the whole ball rolling against Pam. Long before Dateline was involved, they uncovered and made public all of the inconsistencies and evidence pointing at her from Betsey’s case, which were not allowed in the first trial. They’re really the ones who helped get her name out originally. If you listened to the podcast and heard her mention Chris Hayes, that’s the local reporter. But he works for the Fox affiliate, so NBC probably couldn’t credit him. I’m guessing that’s how the story first came to their attention, though. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I just want to know if they're looking at her mother's case again?   The 'accident' she died from was so obviously staged.     

[TVbitch]

I wonder if she would have ever gone down for Betsy's murder if she had stopped there.

I CANNOT believe that one woman got into Pam's vehicle to do a "Dateline soundbite" without a phone (and apparently no shoes?!). WTF?! 

Poor Betsy.  You are already dying of stage 4 cancer and then you have to experience being viciously murdered by someone you thought was a friend. 

[biakbiak]

32 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

I wonder if she would have ever gone down for Betsy's murder if she had stopped there.

Probably since she still hasn’t been charged in Betsy’s murder.

[Ohmo]

The death penalty was MADE for people like Pam Hupp.  She's a serial killer.  I was disappointed that the death penalty was taken off the table.  Pam is so twisted that she went after vulberable people----her mother, Betsy, and Louis.  May she fry in the pits of Hell because that's where she's going.

ETA:

Quote

{hIi Keith, it's good to know you read us! 😉

I'm lost.  How do we know this to be so?

Edited September 28, 2019 by Ohmo

[cooksdelight]

At one point while watching this when they had Pam’s face on the screen, my dog started barking at the TV. He only barks at bad people.

OK, well, the UPS and USPS drivers also, but that’s just because they drive up, leave a box and don’t come in to sit and chat. 🙂

He knows evil. 

[JudyObscure]

The Landing - Heather Elvis.  I don't know about this one, Sidney and Tammy both got convictions, and they probably did do it, but I don't know if there isn't a reasonable doubt.  I really didn't like that woman who prosecuted Tammy,"When did we get on first name basis?"  "How old are you?  How old was Heather?"  It was like she thought Tammy should have sympathetic, maternal feelings toward the woman who was having an affair with her husband or else we should all hate Tammy because she was old and ugly. In Tammy's place I probably would have called Heather a bitch at one time or another, too.  If they get some real evidence someday I hope they revisit this one.

[Minivanessa]

So I DVR'd the Pam Hupp episode Friday night and watched it yesterday afternoon. It was a jaw-dropper. I'm not a violent person at all, don't understand why boxing is a sport and how people can enjoy watching people just pummel each other bloody until one of them is knocked out . . . and I wanted to slap that smirk off that bitch's face SO BAD. 

Hupp was just so evil, and got away with so much murder and theft for so long, it's mind-boggling. At last she pushed her luck too far, although she killed another person before it was over. 

I was just shaking my head at her stupidity but happy that she *was* that inept. It was when she went trawling through what she probably considered a "white trash" neighborhood of mobile homes, looking for someone who would jump at the chance for a fast thousand in cash - and ended up nailed on surveillance cameras and reported by an intended victim. Who wasn't as dim or desperate or afraid of the law as she'd assumed people would be in a "trailer park." Thank god for that woman who even if momentarily stupid enough to get into the car with Hupp, realized quickly enough that she was headed for trouble and managed to get back home unharmed. AND get Hupp's license plate on her home surveillance video to hand over to the cops!

And then another guy came forward, who'd had the same approach "I'm a producer for Dateline, here's a thousand in cash if you'll get in my car without your cell phone or wallet to record a sound bite, and it's top secret so don't tell a soul." I wonder if the cops would have believed either of those people if there hadn't been that surveillance video to back up the woman's story.

Hupp sure seemed to have a lot of fans and friends in the legal system. She killed her friend, got her friend's $150K life insurance proceeds, beat her friend's daughters in court when they contested that, and her friend's innocent husband was tried and convicted and imprisoned for life for her friend's murder. 

I was glad to know that the DA and judge who put Betsy's husband away for Betsy's murder, were voted out of office. 

At least the cops who caught Hupp's "self defense" murder case weren't buying her bullshit. Yes, her whole 911 call was a badly acted fictional script except for those all too real gunshots, and they were onto her cr*p from the get-go. It was interesting to hear the cop explain that when you call 911, the recording starts before you talk to a dispatcher, and of course while Pam waited to perform her stupid "help" script, there was silence, not any kind of struggle going on. Nice!

I hope she rots in prison. However, she seems to have a strong personality.  Maybe she'll be running the place before long.

[Melina22]

20 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

So I DVR'd the Pam Hupp episode Friday night and watched it yesterday afternoon. It was a jaw-dropper

It really was. It was the first I heard of this story and it belongs firmly in the "You can't make this stuff up" category. 

I know it was already long, but I would have loved a lot more background on Pam's early life. What turned her into the person she was? Was she married? Did she have children? 

I can almost understand how she got away with killing Betsey despite the circumstances. No matter what the evidence pointed to, you look at her and can't believe she would take a "friend" home then suddenly stab her to death with a knife, then go about her normal life. For $150,000. It seems impossible to any normal non-serial-killer person. 

I still can't understand why she'd drive around looking for someone to be the victim in her elaborate Dateline plot. Again, the payoff didn't seem to justify the risk. There was no money involved. Revenge on Russ? For what? 

If someone suggested this as a plot for a movie, I'd say they were being ridiculous. 

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I'm not a violent person at all, don't understand why boxing is a sport and how people can enjoy watching people just pummel each other bloody until one of them is knocked out . . . and I wanted to slap that smirk off that bitch's face SO BAD. 

God, same. Especially after the bit about her murdering that poor innocent guy. Somebody needed to punch her hard for that. 

Quote

I was just shaking my head at her stupidity but happy that she *was* that inept. It was when she went trawling through what she probably considered a "white trash" neighborhood of mobile homes, looking for someone who would jump at the chance for a fast thousand in cash - and ended up nailed on surveillance cameras and reported by an intended victim. Who wasn't as dim or desperate or afraid of the law as she'd assumed people would be in a "trailer park." Thank god for that woman who even if momentarily stupid enough to get into the car with Hupp, realized quickly enough that she was headed for trouble and managed to get back home unharmed. AND get Hupp's license plate on her home surveillance video to hand over to the cops!

I loved that, too. I was stunned that that one woman actually considered going with her, despite her warnings, but thank god she was able to escape as she did. The whole "no paper trail' bit would've been a massive tip off that something is not right about this.  

(I love how Keith Morrison was like, "Just so you all know, we don't offer cash..." at that point :p.) 

Quote

At least the cops who caught Hupp's "self defense" murder case weren't buying her bullshit. Yes, her whole 911 call was a badly acted fictional script except for those all too real gunshots, and they were onto her cr*p from the get-go. It was interesting to hear the cop explain that when you call 911, the recording starts before you talk to a dispatcher, and of course while Pam waited to perform her stupid "help" script, there was silence, not any kind of struggle going on. Nice!

I didn't know that about the 911 calls, either! Very good information to have, indeed, and something I'll be thinking about anytime I'm watching future episodes of shows like this that feature 911 calls :D. 

And god, yes, the pitiful acting. She's not gonna be winning any Oscars anytime soon, that's for damn sure. 

[Enero]

11 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I was glad to know that the DA and judge who put Betsy's husband away for Betsy's murder, were voted out of office. 

I’m watching this episode now. Just about halfway through it and I am absolutely appalled at the incompetence of the police. They just took Pam’s word without investigating everything, including her thoroughly. It made absolutely no sense that Betsy would name Pam as a beneficiary on her life insurance so that she could set up a trust for her children when she had family members ie a mom etc., who could do this. Also she could’ve done this herself before her death. She didn’t need Pam to do this. The laziness of these cops was infuriating. SMH. “Justice” truly can be blind. 

[nora1992]

Waxing philosophic here, but I think we all have a Pam Hupp type in our life.  In this case, she is the extreme: one so evil as to end lives to for negligible benefit, but the world is full of people who enter our lives and then try to arrange our own situations to their advantage.  Think of it: have you ever known someone who managed to influence your thinking, to add just enough information to fuel whatever distance/estrangement existing between two parties enough to create a huge conflagration?  I've been on both ends of such events (the lied-to and lied-about, that is), and witnessed similar things happening to others.  Pam Hupp is evil, but she is hardly unique.  If Pride & Prejudice were a crime novel, she'd be Wickham: the one who comes in with a convenient story that confirms everything Lizzie wants to think about Darcy.  Scheming opportunists are everywhere, but not usually as bold.

Edited September 30, 2019 by nora1992
Clarification

[biakbiak]

I will never in a million years understand why the cops were so hellbent on believing her and ignoring all of the things that pointed to Russ’s innocence. There were so many red flags from the start of their investigation and I didn’t find her believable at all! I realize that part of that is the framing of the story but I remember feeling that way when Dateline first covered the case which was before Russ’s original conviction was thrown out and he was in jail! 
Interesting that Keith was the one assigned to two cases that had multiple episodes, overturned convictions, and tons of media attention Russ and Ryan Ferguson.

Edited September 30, 2019 by biakbiak

[UsernameFatigue]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

I will never in a million years understand why the cops were so hellbent on believing her and ignoring all of the things that pointed to Russ’s innocence. There were so many red flags from the start of their investigation and I didn’t find her believable at all! I realize that part of that is the framing of the story but I remember feeling that way when Dateline first covered the case which was before Russ’s original conviction was thrown out and he was in jail! 
Interesting that Keith was the one assigned to two cases that had multiple episodes, overturned convictions, and tons of media attention Russ and Ryan Ferguson.

I remember Russ's original conviction too, and it had me shaking me head. It was mind boggling to me that the jury would disregard his alibi. I can't remember off hand, but was it three or four people that he was with at poker/movie night? Did the jury really believe that that many people would be willing to give a friend an alibi, and all would be able to get their stories straight, and none would back out because they could face charges for lying to the police? And for what? Their friend killing his wife, who was dying of cancer anyway? I really hope that the jury feels somewhat responsible for the two people who lost their lives at the hands of Hupp after Betsy was murdered.

Also did Dateline say that not only was the DA voted out, but the judge who did not allow the defense to bring up Hupp as reasonable doubt lost his job too? I also hope that he has sleepless nights. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by UsernameFatigue

[biakbiak]

32 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

e or four people that he was with at poker/movie night? Did the jury really believe that that many people would be willing to give a friend an alibi, and all would be able to get their stories straight

It was four and they even went so far as to suggest that one of them kept his phone then stopped to get the food and then brought him the phone and the receipt which would be being an accesory!! It’s outlandish. They also suggested he had to be constructing an alibi because he ran so many errands even though he had an explanation for them and none of them was unusual for him. Also, the details of the movie/game night were so random (we started watching The Road but found it boring* so turned it off) no one would think to do that.

And yes the judge was also voted out of office.

*Accurate review and I love the book!

[iMonrey]

The thing that gets me about Hupp is that she basically got away with murder (maybe 2) so why did she bother with another elaborate murder scheme just to frame Russ? If she was that psychotic the police should have picked up on it almost immediately. She was basically in the free and clear, even after Russ's murder conviction was overturned. She couldn't leave well enough alone.