All Episodes Discussion

[LakeGal]

In the first case I hope the live-in girlfriend is not still with the doctor.  He seemed to be a serial cheater.  The breast cancer doctor was probably a great doctor to her patients.  But they did not know anything about her personal life.  She was obsessive with her relationship to the doctor. 

 

In the second case it really reminded me of that case in California where the woman's family killed her ex (while delivering a plant) so she could have the child.  Where do these crazy families come from?   A normal family tells their daughter to find a way to live with sharing the child with the ex.  They don't agree to help murder him so they can all have the child to themselves. Kathleen really just wanted a baby.  She was a kindergarten teacher and loved children.  She didn't want a husband.  She wanted the child.  She really should have went to a sperm bank and saved everyone a lot of heartache.     

[auntjess]

On the crazy NJ family, I'd love to know if she was liked as a teacher, because she seemed totally inflexible.
A sperm bank would have spared her husband, but I'd hate to think of a poor child growing up with her as a mother.

I hope his mother watches her back.  I think jailed grandma should be forced to have all her calls monitored for life.

They are a crazy family, and I bet daughter is trying to line up hit men already.

[Ohmo]

On the crazy NJ family, I'd love to know if she was liked as a teacher, because she seemed totally inflexible.

A sperm bank would have spared her husband, but I'd hate to think of a poor child growing up with her as a mother.

I hope his mother watches her back.  I think jailed grandma should be forced to have all her calls monitored for life.

They are a crazy family, and I bet daughter is trying to line up hit men already.

 

In terms of Kathleen being inflexible as a teacher, I did teach school, but I purposely did not take the classes to get my certification to teach kindergarten.  I realized during my education classes in college that one needed to have a certain personality to be successful teaching kindergarten because the children are so young. I knew that I didn't have that personality, and Kathleen certainly didn't either.  Teaching requires flexibility, but even more flexibility is needed in a kindergarten classroom. Kathleen didn't know the meaning of the word, so I wonder how successful she was as a teacher?

 

Kathleen's calls will be monitored for the rest of her life since she's slated to spend the next 50+ years behind bars.  I think she's the most important one to monitor, given that she was the ringleader who we heard berate her mother on the phone about screwing up with the picture.  Hopefully, her mother will be on supervised probation for awhile once she's served her seven years.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Ohmo

[auntjess]

 

Kathleen's calls will be monitored for the rest of her life since she's slated to spend the next 50+ years behind bars.  I think she's the most important one to monitor, given that she was the ringleader who we heard berate her mother on the phone about screwing up with the picture.

I know, but one of the things I worried about, was her telling other prisoners some bullshit about how her husband and his mother abused the child. and could they get someone to kill grandma to save the child.

So I think if they could listen to every call from anyone she has contact with.

These are some of the scarier people I've seen on these shows.

[LGGirl]

I know I tend to watch these murder and mystery shows more than others, but I still have to ask, "Why is murder a solution to your problems".  Do people really think they will get away with it?  In this case, this family lost the little girl they loved so much.  They lost their freedom. Was it worth it??

 

It's because these people are so narcissistic that they think they are above the law, smarter than the police and will get away with it. Clearly they are living in their own reality.

[photo fox]

Questions surround a young father when his wife perishes in a house fire and a second tragedy takes his son's life. The Arson Investigator on the case speaks out to Dateline for the first time.

[RedheadZombie]

Where is everybody???

[editorgrrl]

I know I've seen this case on another show, but I can't remember which one.

[editorgrrl]

Watched the repeat, and still feel so sorry for Nancy. Still hate the daughters—and the son, who did not appear on the show but testified in his father's defense.

[callmebetty]

I feel like lately they have been repeating earlier episodes but with some new interviews added in so really they should package them as Dateline: Updated.

[gaPeach]

I did not realize this was a repeat until I came here.  It definitely sparked a more lively conversation then any of the other episodes in this forum.

 

I cannot watch Dateline unless I DVR it.  The constant repeating the same information over and over again.  I can watch the 2 hour show in under an hour. 

 

So poor Nancy.  I can't even imagine how difficult it is for her to have two daughter so openly supportive of her would be killer husband and so closed off to the pain both physically and emotionally she must be going through.  I get that they were once a happy family and the girls love their dad.  I suspect the mother would understand that they could love him even after what he did but their joyous squeals of support were too much.  It hurt my heart and I am not their mother.

 

And why no info about the girl friend in CA?  I mean she was barely mentioned and no interview.  That would seem as though she was not in on it and wanted no part of the story. 

 

The guy was an idiot and his gang of hillbillys really got one over on him. 

[walnutqueen]

I've seen this one more than once.  Dateline needs to get some new material.

[tobeannounced]

Yep, seen it.  What does that say about me?

[jenkait]

I'm here...  I need to start a thread for an ep that aired when I was on vacation, I PVR'd it...  Where a woman was killed and both the husband and son accused each other of being the murderer?  YIKES.  The son was convicted/released but I was sure the husband did it...his first wife had died slipping and falling in to the pool...coincidences happen, but REALLY?!

[RedheadZombie]

I'd seen t∟his one before, and Dateline slapped on a new airing date - again.  Even worse, Aphrodite Jones did her typical hack job.  The new info from her show was he let his ducks - a thousand or so - die of starvation.  He simply lost interest when the most recent wife left him.  I can't even imagine him coming and going from that home day after day, watching those animals suffering.  Somehow that bothered me almost as much as killing the humans. My dream hell for him would be pure karma - simultaneous starving/burning/chest crushing.

 

I'm here...  I need to start a thread for an ep that aired when I was on vacation, I PVR'd it...  Where a woman was killed and both the husband and son accused each other of being the murderer?  YIKES.  The son was convicted/released but I was sure the husband did it...his first wife had died slipping and falling in to the pool...coincidences happen, but REALLY?!

 

Oh that one was interesting!  Nothing more suspicious than a woman conveniently strolling around the pool at night, striking her head, and drowning.  That husband was a pig.

[Morbs]

I paused it before the jury gave it's verdict, I've had a depressing week and I didn't think I could handle it if he was let off, but I got the courage to watch it and was relieved he was convicted.  70 years too!  I thought maybe since it was Montana it would be a lighter sentence.  What a scum bag, he had no idea he did anything wrong, totally gun culture out of control.  His wife should probably be in jail too.  She knew what was up, but had chosen her words more carefully when it came to herself.

 

The victim was so handsome!  And kids stealing beer from garages is such a teenage minor crime.  I'm careful about my garage because kids have stolen beer before, and I don't get mad at all, I remember what it was like at that age.  I shut my garage.

 

The episode numbers might me off for the title.

[Neet]

And kids stealing beer from garages is such a teenage minor crime.  I'm careful about my garage because kids have stolen beer before, and I don't get mad at all, I remember what it was like at that age.

Do you really think Markus shot the guy over beer? While it was a pre-meditated crime, he already had his house burglarized a few times in the recent past and likely assumed it was the same person or people coming back again, and he has an infant child in the house. Diren committed a crime and that's a fact, don't pass off or de-emphasize going into somebody's property to steal alcohol as a rite of passage. 

[tobeannounced]

I think it's a shame how all this came down, but 70 years, to me, is a ridiculously unfair sentence for the homeowner, who did not appear to have a criminal past.  If you choose to go onto someone's property and steal something, you have no control over how they're going to react.  It's a dangerous game, obviously.  Another case of the cops saying how someone "should" react and deciding there's a crime there because the person didn't react the way they "think" they would.

[Morbs]

 

Do you really think Markus shot the guy over beer? While it was a pre-meditated crime, he already had his house burglarized a few times in the recent past and likely assumed it was the same person or people coming back again, and he has an infant child in the house. Diren committed a crime and that's a fact, don't pass off or de-emphasize going into somebody's property to steal alcohol as a rite of passage.

 

No I realize he didn't know Diren's intent for the entering the garage but the way the show talked about kids stealing beer as a "ring" was ridiculous, and I don't think people should be shot for stealing a wallet or entering someone else's property.  I don't think all theft is equal.  Kids stealing credit cards is not the same as stealing beer.  It's a petty crime to me.

 

I'm fine with 70 years in this case.  He was so out of touch with reality and excited to kill someone he stayed up for 3 nights in a row, set up a trap with bait, bragged about his plan to strangers (unaware most people wouldn't find that endearing), was dumbfounded when he was charged, and wanted to keep 100 copies of the newspapers as trophies.  He was a sociopath who needed to be removed from society.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Morbs

[canaanite2]

...

Edited May 2, 2015 by canaanite2

[canaanite2]

...

Edited May 2, 2015 by canaanite2

[AngelinaMaria]

Yes, the 2 ladies that testified about the conversations at the hair salon very clearly indicated his intent.  

Yes, the 2 ladies testifying as to his conversation at the hair salon made it very clear what his intent was.  He wanted to kill someone (he even said he wanted to kill some police officers).

[canaanite2]

This case was about the shooter's personality and attitude as much as it was about the evidence. Both the police and the jury saw the dangerous empathy-free potential psychopath beyond the evidence. The wife was just as bad, but she was smart enough not to be the one to pull the trigger. I'm sure there's more to their story. These people were ANGRY, and you can say they were rightfully angry given their circumstances, but somewhere along the line they crossed over into plotting a murder. They WANTED to kill someone. They reveled at the opportunity when it arrived. It was premeditated. That email that sent to their neighbors was probably a part of the plan. These are very sick people. The victim, flawed as he was in his judgment, was nowhere near the level of criminal that this couple was.

 

Reading some more about the case, it turns out that there were three witnesses who heard him state that he was planning on killing intruders, so that's one more than the two women shown on Dateline. Also, more detail on the previous burglaries. 

 

 

 

Prosecutors allege Kaarma and Pflager set a trap for intruders who had burglarized the home twice before in the weeks prior to the shooting. But Dede was not responsible for those burglaries. Police have since interviewed two other teenagers who confessed to those crimes.

The 16-year-old and 18-year-old males told officers they took a black wallet with credit cards, an iPhone, a blue and pink wallet with credit cards, a marijuana grinder, a marijuana bong, and a jar of marijuana from Kaarma’s garage and unlocked cars in the driveway. Their names have not been released and it’s unknown if charges will be filed against them.

 

Who the F leaves this kind of stuff in unlocked cars in the driveway? Wallets with credit cards plus marijuana. These aren't things you forget to bring inside with you. It sounds like they might have been trying to lure in burglars before the shooting incident. I know that sounds extra sinister, but i wouldn't put it past them. Then there's this:

 

 

 

Missoula County Attorney Karla Painter later asked Pflager if she said during a phone call with Kaarma in jail that she and Kaarma wouldn't pay for the Dedes' "dirty rat son" to be sent back to Germany for burial.

Pflager said she didn't recall saying that.

 

Obviously the statement was recorded. These jail conversations were probably full of disgusting insensitive comments. This couple feeds off of one another's negativity. I think the world is a little bit safer with them separated by prison walls.  

Edited May 2, 2015 by canaanite2

[tobeannounced]

IDK, I guess I see a guy that's more defiant than repentant, and that probably did him no favors.  He was obviously pissed about the prior break-ins and worried for the safety of his child and wife when he had to leave soon to go to his seasonal job.  That may have caused him to shoot his mouth off at the salon.  I don't know that that should have any bearing on whether it was justified or not, but I can see your points, Canaanite2.

[Morbs]

It's a big leap to go from someone breaking into unlocked and open garages to someone murdering a newborn baby.  

[Neet]

No I realize he didn't know Diren's intent for the entering the garage but the way the show talked about kids stealing beer as a "ring" was ridiculous, and I don't think people should be shot for stealing a wallet or entering someone else's property.  I don't think all theft is equal.  Kids stealing credit cards is not the same as stealing beer.  It's a petty crime to me.

 

I can see how there are different perceptions formed on a person depending on if they stole alcohol or if they stole larger scale items. Stealing alcohol from somebody's house is still stealing, which I know you're not disputing, but I don't think his theft should get softened with words such as "petty" and "teenage". I completely get where you're coming from, as I stole from a store when I was 17 (and like Diren, it wasn't something I'd usually do), and in retrospect, I deserved an ass-kicking. In my opinion, theft takes on a much bigger context when it's someone's house at night vs. a store. If he took alcohol from a store and got shot, I'd have a different opinion. That has nothing to do with my own crime because I'm not defending that at all, but I think in a store, it's way easier to track what's stolen and assess the threat compared to a stranger you can't see in the dark coming into your residence to do who knows what.

IDK, I guess I see a guy that's more defiant than repentant, and that probably did him no favors.  He was obviously pissed about the prior break-ins and worried for the safety of his child and wife when he had to leave soon to go to his seasonal job.  That may have caused him to shoot his mouth off at the salon.  I don't know that that should have any bearing on whether it was justified or not, but I can see your points, Canaanite2.

I was hoping the defense would bring up the possibility that he was letting off steam to anybody who would listen. People make a lot of idle threats that don't get followed through, eg. threatening to hurt a dog who's barking at your own dog, you're not actually going to do it.

 

It's a big leap to go from someone breaking into unlocked and open garages to someone murdering a newborn baby.  

Armed robbery happens pretty often. There could have been a chance of Markus being held up at gunpoint or had his family tied up. The perspectives of a burglar and a burglary victim in the moment are very different.

I think it's a shame how all this came down, but 70 years, to me, is a ridiculously unfair sentence for the homeowner, who did not appear to have a criminal past.  If you choose to go onto someone's property and steal something, you have no control over how they're going to react.  It's a dangerous game, obviously.  Another case of the cops saying how someone "should" react and deciding there's a crime there because the person didn't react the way they "think" they would.

Agreed, 70 years is savage. I hate how the police have a one size fits all chart of reactions and are shocked when somebody doesn't fit into it. For a ton of these cases, it's like they honesty think the killer has the same point of view and information of what's going on as the people sitting on the couch watching the episode of Dateline. Markus did not see an HD re-enactment of a "sweet, popular teenager" sauntering in his garage to steal beer, and I'm sick of investigators saying "well, based on what we see now, you should have done ____". I'm not absolving Markus of guilt, but come on.

[applecrisp]

Did anyone watch this episode which aired on Friday, May 1, 2015.  I thought it was interesting.

Edited May 3, 2015 by applecrisp

[tobeannounced]

Thanks for starting this, applecrisp.  Like I commented in the ID thread, I really was intrigued by this one and didn't have it figured out from the get-go.  Very different from the usual "husband did it."  I felt so bad for the two sisters, especially the younger one who was being molested by the leader.  Geez, I will never understand these parents who willingly submit their children to this kind of abuse in the name of God.

[applecrisp]

I thought it took awhile for the whole reveal but was a good episode.  In the back of my mind I thought he was having sex with the young girls, yet they did not come out and say that until the second half.  He made it a point to say that the daughter in the plane was not supposed to be on that plane.  Which I thought was telling and odd.

 

Also took awhile for them to figure out he killed for the insurance money.  I felt bad for the two girls and the young man.  When asked if her mother knew about the abuse, she said she thought her mom did know but she was probably crazy.  Their must be some denial.

[lchal]

What is the ID thread?

[tobeannounced]

Click on Forums at the top.  Scroll down past all the shows to Misc TV Talk, and then there's a category within that called Network Talk.  There's a thread for ID .  You have to follow the whole Network Talk section, though, if you want to know when there's updates..

[zxy556575]

Kind of sick to my stomach. So those people killed themselves at his behest? He wasn't anywhere near the car and plane crashes or the jack collapse. I suppose he could have done something to the plane engine but that's unreliable. I think it's more likely that he commanded and they obeyed.

 

I didn't understand how he could eat a meal and use utensils without leaving any DNA. I FF'd through the interview with him -- no interest in seeing his scummy face or hearing anything that came out of his repellent mouth.

 

I agree the mother knew he was screwing both her daughters. She probably considered it a gift. No doubt he had sex with all the women. So sad.

[ChristmasJones]

This guy is a classic sociopath/psychopath. Fits the diagnostic criteria to a T.

 

Super creepy.

 

Wonder how the dad of the girls has been able to deal with what their mom put them through. That has to be rough.

[JudyObscure]

After watching an hour and forty-five minutes, I had to turn it off when I saw an interview with the pedophile murderer coming up.  So disgusting.  I have to blame both of the girls' parents on this one.  I didn't think their mother was crazy in the sense of seriously mentally ill and unable to function.  I thought she was just one of those vain airheads who believes all the fake mediums and angels-in-disguise junk she sees on TV, and thought she was so unique that, of course, she would be sought out by one of them.  There is no real religion in any of it, just random ideas from the movies for psychopaths to use and special snow flake, free spirits to feed on.  I thought the show was giving a bad name to cults by calling this sick situation one. It was all about sex and cars.

 

The good part was that the young military man came along and instantly saw what others had been blind to for years, and actually did something about it.

[applecrisp]

I did wonder why Emily did not go and live with her dad after the mom was killed, because the older daughter did.

[walnutqueen]

I did wonder why Emily did not go and live with her dad after the mom was killed, because the older daughter did.

 

The sick bastard got her young enough to make her believe she actually loved him.

[UsernameFatigue]

I was disappointed that in the two hours Dateline did not follow any kind of a trail detailing the insurance money on each of these dead people, considering that is apparently how Castro became wealthy.  I did some research as it seemed odd that if Castro had insurance policies on all of these people that died, it wasn't brought up. (Also still unsure as to how Brian who died in another state is tied to Castro as one of the mysterious deaths of people in the cult).

 

Anyway apparently Patricia (the one who ended up dying in the pool) collected $700,000 in Feb 2001 after the plane crash killed her friend Mona. Which is really odd as why would Mona not make the beneficiary of a life insurance policy her children? Was is forged?

 

Brian collected 1.2 million dollars in June 2003 when his wife Patricia died in the swimming pool.

 

In March 2006 a woman named Kara Kemier who was also associated with the group/cult collected $500,000 when her friend Brian was crushed under the truck. Again did Castro drive to another state to do the deed or have someone else push the truck onto Brian? Why would Brian not have his daughter as beneficiary? Or was there more than one policy on Brian (and on Mona above?).

 

Brain and Patricia's daughter then went to Jennifer Huston to care for (the mother of the two girls interviewed in the show). Was this ever revealed in the show?

 

Then Huston was killed in the crash in Sept 2008 but nothing was mentioned about insurance, though again one would think her daughters would get any insurance?

 

In any case Castro was not the direct beneficiary of any of the insurance policies, but since he seemed to have control over everyone in the group I would assume they gave him control of the money afterwards. Dateline in two hours had plenty of time to reveal this info - wonder why they didn't?

Edited May 5, 2015 by UsernameFatigue

[partofme]

I was also fine with the sentence.  I don't know about Montana, but in NY you are not allowed to shoot someone in defense of property.  I had no sympathy for the defendant or his wife.

Edited May 5, 2015 by partofme

[tobeannounced]

UsernameFatigue, the show made a point of mentioning that Castro didn't have anything in his name (houses, cars.)  So maybe that was the case with the insurance too.  I guess if you can convince people to let you kill them, it's not that hard to convince people to be the beneficiaries and turn the money over to you after they collect.  Geez, too bad he didn't use his powers for good.

[ari333]

Did they not have him on video? Just call the cops and show them the footage. Gees

[Taylorh2]

I was disappointed that the husband of the older sister didn't get more credit for helping to solve this case ? He steered the police in the right direction.

[gaPeach]

I just cannot understand mothers that allow people to hurt their children.  I also do not understand how someone can be conned into killing themselves because someone told them it their time.  What?  Really?

 

I get the kids falling for this guys BS because they are kids but the adults?  How can one be so desperate to believe in something they would kill themselves for someone to collect insurance money.  I know that is not what he told them he was doing but how did the husband not figure it out when his wife died (was killed willingly) in the pool and he collected the insurance money and handed it over to Castro so Castro could buy new cars?  And then it was his "turn" a couple years later when the well ran low....what?  Come on people!

 

I would have liked more information about how he got these people to kill themselves.  Did he mess with the plane or did he get the pilot to just crash the plane?  And the two girls mom.  How do you talk someone into driving head on into an oncoming car to kill yourself?  Pills would have been better but I suppose the pay out would have been lower or none at all.  And to not care you may kill someone else killing yourself that way? 

 

None of it seemed real but I know it happens all the time, look at Jonestown mass suicide.  Crazy stuff.

[Taylorh2]

All those people 'drank the kool-aid

[applecrisp]

Yes, GaPeach, if you want to kill yourself leave other people out of it.

[RedheadZombie]

I did wonder why Emily did not go and live with her dad after the mom was killed, because the older daughter did.

 

I think both girls were equally victimized, but the older sister was clearly able to see she was being raped, while the younger sister really romanticized it.  In fact, when she tells the story she contradicts herself.  She said she chose to stay with Castro, rather than her father and sister, because they were her family.  She loved them and wanted to be with them.  Then later she says she stayed because she felt she had no choice.  I really think it became difficult to stay when he kicked her out of his bed for his new woman.  Not that she necessarily enjoyed the sexual relationship, but she made no bones about the fact that she absolutely loved being his favorite and being treated like a princess.  I hope she has had and continues to get on going counseling.  Her abuse was very similar to incest.

[SunnyBeBe]

Maybe, I'm in the minority here, but I thought the conviction and sentencing of the man who shot the intruder was extremely inappropriate. In fact, I'm shocked it happened.  I hope someone works to get that guy's sentence reduced.  Yes, I saw all he said and did and I still think he shouldn't be prosecuted the way he was.   

[Morbs]

The host/narration was out of control right off the bat.  "It was the type of neighborhood America used to have a lot, but now it is harder and harder to find," as if the US is now a third world country and not the safest it has ever been.  And then the host said, "So, how many murders per year?  A dozen?" haha like it's so hard to find a suburb that has no violent crimes every year.  If only even the "safer" suburbs in America had 12 murders per year: Dateline would have more interesting cases for us!

 

I thought the younger son had done it and was being filmed in jail because the background of his interview was so fuzzy and kinda looked like bars.  He was annihilated during his interview, definitely drugged out on something.  I was glad the one guy they interviewed was innocent because he was a fan of "Angel" and had even incorporated the show into his weekly routine, so he must be a good person deep down.

 

I knew something was up when the best friend was never interviewed.  Her faked shooting was really over the top pathetic, it looked more like a bad pinch than a grazed gunshot.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Morbs

[editorgrrl]

Originally aired Friday, May 8, 2015. Preview.

A loving mother and wife is brutally murdered in a Georgia home invasion. The following night, her best friend and neighbor is shot outside the office where both women worked. Investigators soon discover disturbing secrets that only deepen the mystery.

I knew something was up when the best friend was never interviewed. Her faked shooting was really over the top pathetic, it looked more like a bad pinch than a grazed gunshot.

Whenever an employee is shot in the leg during a robbery, I immediately think "accomplice." I can't believe it never occurred to me this time!

Edited May 9, 2015 by editorgrrl

[applecrisp]

I had thought I'd heard this story before but can't remember on what show.  What a selfish ,crappy mother.

[Morbs]

I thought I had heard this story before too.  The husband who had the affair looked so familiar.