Happy Valley - General Discussion

[standbyme]

I'm a bit late, but I was shocked by Claire's betrayal. Then somehow the actress and the writing made me understand her and it.  It's a downer, this show, but it's brilliant. 

[dubbel zout]

Claire has always been more sympathetic to Ryan wanting to know Tommy than Catherine has. I think Claire realizes it's inevitable, while Catherine still tries to manage what she tells Ryan. Ryan isn't a boy anymore; I think he deserves to know more than what Catherine has told him so he can make up his mind about Tommy for himself. Making Tommy forbidden fruit of a sort only makes him more attractive to Ryan, as we're seeing.

Tommy's courtroom breakout was way too plot pointy for me.

[Andyourlittledog2]

Okay, this isn't insightful analysis but every time Catherine's phone rings I am instantly set up to expect some otherworldly unnatural thing is about to happen. I immediately switch to 'uh oh, this show is taking a very weird and unexpected turn' for a moment, then I remember as she answers her phone that it's her ring. Every. Damn. Time. lol

[AZChristian]

I've not seen this discussed anywhere else, but I want to offer a different point of view.

I wonder whether Catherine really even loves Ryan as a grandmother usually loves a grandchild.  She loved Becky with all of her heart and soul.  She believes that Becky is dead because of Tommy Lee.  In Catherine's mind, he raped her beloved child.  Then he (slowly) poisoned her by introducing her to a world of drugs, until she got to the point of committing suicide.  Maybe she can never forget that Ryan is Tommy Lee's child . . . not just Becky's.  Maybe there's a part of her that hates part of Ryan because of who his father is.  Maybe she only took on the role of raising him because society expected her to raise her grandchild, and she loves that part of him that represents Becky.  

I think living with him every day must be hard, especially since his personality seems as unbalanced as Tommy Lee's.  

[aghst]

Yeah I think Catherine wrote off Tommy as this sociopath, possibly informed by her training as a policewoman.

It seems like for Catherine, Tommy is not only irredeemable but there is nothing which could be redeeming about him, even though he was apparently a victim of circumstances, growing in a horrible situation.

But when you see Tommy smile as he sees Ryan, that seems like a genuine reaction, not some evil satisfaction that he snuck out on Catherine again and that is what makes him smile.

 

 

[dubbel zout]

Catherine is afraid that whatever is broken in Tommy was passed on to Ryan. It's been one of the major emotional arcs of the show. 

[aghst]

22 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Catherine is afraid that whatever is broken in Tommy was passed on to Ryan. It's been one of the major emotional arcs of the show. 

But I think that's something only she fears.

Her sister and others in the social circle, not so much.

Maybe there's some cynicism about criminals from or those who've been violent based on her police experience and training.

Maybe others are naive or just don't see people the same way a hardened cop does.

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Maybe there's some cynicism about criminals from or those who've been violent based on her police experience and training.

Maybe others are naive or just don't see people the same way a hardened cop does.

I think it's a combination.

- She does see the results of criminal behavior that non-police wouldn't see.

- She knows that Tommy Lee's behavior is on the WORST end of those behaviors.

- He did what he did to someone she loved dearly, so she can't be objective.

She may also see a lot of cases where the perpetrator's parent(s) are evil, and is concerned that it's a genetic thing that Ryan may have inherited.  That's another reason she doesn't want Ryan to visit Tommy Lee; she's afraid Tommy will want to teach Ryan unacceptable behaviors.  

Another thought:  One of the reasons Catherine's husband left her was because he couldn't deal with raising the son of the man who was responsible for his daughter's death.  They still care for each other (used to sneak away for intimate moments in the early seasons), and that's another reason Catherine may resent having to take care of Ryan.

[dubbel zout]

I don't think Catherine resents having to take care of Ryan. He's the last link to Becky, her beloved daughter. He can't help the circumstances of his birth, and I don't think Catherine holds them against him in the slightest. No one seems to.

[MicheleinPhilly]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think Catherine resents having to take care of Ryan. He's the last link to Becky, her beloved daughter. He can't help the circumstances of his birth, and I don't think Catherine holds them against him in the slightest. No one seems to.

Except for Catherine's son when he's drunk. 

But I'm with you - I don't think Catherine has any resentment towards Ryan specifically. I think she resents the circumstances that led to this point and I think she is tired and beaten down and wondering how much more sh** can be thrown her way, but I don't think she blames Ryan for any of it. I think we see a lot of exasperation from her because he's been a somewhat surly lad and she is walking a very fine line in trying to do what's best for him, but I don't think she resents him. 

[Enigma X]

I think Tommy is dirt, but I also think that Catherine's daughter probably was just as willful and rebellious as Ryan.  Catherine seems to be romanticizing her a bit, and maybe Ryan is a lot like his mom. This is not to say that Tommy didn't damage her.

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:33 PM, AZChristian said:

I thought the entire scene of Clare and Catherine in the tea shop was done amazingly well.  

Agree.

One thing I've noticed about this show is that it is unafraid to give us long scenes. Sally Wainwright is so good, she can create a scene that has no action other than two people talking to each other, and keep that scene going far beyond what any other show would dare, and keep us riveted.

Before S3, we rewatched S2 to refresh our memories, and enjoyed it all over again. One thing that didn't get much comment on this board--something that deserved more comment than it got, IMO--was the subplot involving John Wadsworth. Kevin Doyle was amazing in his ability to convey the feeling of walls closing in.

[Andyourlittledog2]

I'm kinda hating every adult in Ryan's life right now. Man, when Ryan told Catherine he loved her and she just stared back at him hard and didn't respond in kind it just broke my heart. He's just a kid.  And Ann's hateful drunken speech to him was agonizing to listen to.

I do think Ryan is playing his dad to get his location so he can be captured. I don't think Ryan really wants to go anywhere with him even though he's practically persona non grata everywhere he goes right now.  I think he wants to earn his way back into his family's good graces because they are all he really has for real.

[marybennet]

Catherine didn’t say “I love you,” but I thought she softened a bit as she said “Come on” or “Come on then,” and that softening would be recognizable to him as loving him. It’s what her love looks like. Also, she evidently asked for his games console to be packed up and sent to Nev’s. That’s an ‘I love you,’ too. 

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

And Ann's hateful drunken speech to him was agonizing to listen to.

It was brutal, but I kind of appreciated her honesty. No one has told Ryan exactly what Tommy has done, and at 16, he's old enough to know. (I repeat my complaint about him never looking up Tommy online. I find that completely unrealistic. I can see him starting to read about Tommy and then stopping, but to not even google him at all? No way.)

I'm bored with the crime story involving Faisal and the gym teacher. Though I did get a laugh when the gym teacher kept saying Catherine thought he was guilty of killing his wife. And I loved the stink eye his younger daughter gave him when he saw them at his mother's. He may not have killed his wife, but he's an abusive piece of shit.

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/19/2023 at 9:37 PM, marybennet said:

Catherine didn’t say “I love you,” but I thought she softened a bit as she said “Come on” or “Come on then,” and that softening would be recognizable to him as loving him. It’s what her love looks like

Totally.

23 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

It was brutal, but I kind of appreciated [Ann's] honesty.

I loved her monologue. And I thought the actress was awesome. I should look up her name and find out what else she's been in.

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:12 AM, dubbel zout said:

It was brutal, but I kind of appreciated her honesty. No one has told Ryan exactly what Tommy has done, and at 16, he's old enough to know. (I repeat my complaint about him never looking up Tommy online. I find that completely unrealistic. I can see him starting to read about Tommy and then stopping, but to not even google him at all? No way.)

I'm bored with the crime story involving Faisal and the gym teacher. Though I did get a laugh when the gym teacher kept saying Catherine thought he was guilty of killing his wife. And I loved the stink eye his younger daughter gave him when he saw them at his mother's. He may not have killed his wife, but he's an abusive piece of shit.

I loved Ann's speech even if it was brutal to watch. It reminded me why I liked the character initially she refuses to be a victim. It was also something Ryan needed to hear. It's probably why he went to see Tommy in the first place, he sensed Catherine was holding back so he thought Tommy might give him the truth. If Ryan truly hadn't wanted to hear what Ann was saying he would have stormed off in typical teenage fashion. He stayed because he was finally getting what he wanted.

[dubbel zout]

Well, I can't say I found the ending entirely satisfactory, but I think it did wrap things up. And I think everyone is where they should be, so there's that.

[marybennet]

I think the show was not interested in the Faisal and Hepworth plots, but then neither was I.  I was really satisfied with the kitchen confrontation between Catherine and Tommy, which I found wonderfully complex and beautifully acted. Credit to the scenes involving Claire, too. I was wrenched by Catherine’s sobbing. 

[aghst]

11 minutes ago, marybennet said:

I think the show was not interested in the Faisal and Hepworth plots, but then neither was I.  I was really satisfied with the kitchen confrontation between Catherine and Tommy, which I found wonderfully complex and beautifully acted. Credit to the scenes involving Claire, too. I was wrenched by Catherine’s sobbing. 

To me the ending left it a little more ambiguous that Tommy is this monster and nothing else.

He was glad that Catherine raised Ryan in better circumstances and probably did better than he would have.

Tommy's reaction to seeing Ryan seemed genuine, like seeing him brought him some joy.

Of course it's unrealistic of him to expect that Ryan would run off with him, since Catherine has been taking care of him all his life.

But it makes you wonder if Tommy isn't right that Catherine never gave him a chance, wrote him off early and tried to keep Ryan from him.

It's not unlike the Rutger Hauer character at the end of Blade Runner, where this figure who inspired terror turns out to have some nobility, some motives other than killing or wreaking sadistic violence on others.

Not saying there's nobility in Tommy, just that me may not be as bad as Catherine always seen him.  He wasn't going to be a good father and he probably wasn't going to stay out of trouble or avoid violence, given how he grew up.  He wasn't victimized by circumstance and he was certainly not a victim -- he was going to kill rather than be killed, as we saw once again.

Catherine's main concern was whether Ryan would inherit Tommy's inclination towards violence and destroying people like she believed that he destroyed her daughter.  So she may not have seen beyond the monstrous acts, nor should she as a policewoman and guardian of her grandson.

[Milburn Stone]

I think that's a great summation, @aghst.

A great finale delivers the unexpected, and this one did. I never expected to see any form of redemption for Tommy, but Sally Wainwright gave him this, even if Catherine couldn't see it. Even his fingering Darius for Gary's murder felt like it went beyond mere vengeance for Darius's betrayal of him.

And it wasn't only the photo albums that wrought this transformation. Even before he opened them, we could read his thoughts as he looked about Catherine's house: "This is a nice place to live. Orderly. Cared for. Cared about." The environment itself spoke to him of the nurturing Ryan received that he never did, and could never provide.

Catherine not being able to see his redemption drove him mad in the end.

I appreciated that the wrap-ups of the Hepworth and Darius cases were so quickly dispensed with. I didn't need to see Catherine collar these culprits herself. The episode used its 68 minutes wisely.

[TaraS1]

There were definitely things in this season that made me go, "Oh, come ON..." in terms of believability (Tommy's escape, no cops being posted at Catherine's), but the acting and writing makes it so easy to forget all that.  

The absolute brilliance of Sarah Lancashire goes without saying, and James Norton is incredible, but shout out to Siobhan Finneran for being the unsung hero of this show.  Like Ryan said about auntie Claire, she's always been there.  And no matter how many times Claire screws up, her fragility and her utter despair and desperation for Catherine to love her just rips my heart out. 

I just love this cast and this show.  It was kind of my first real foray into British crime TV and it ruined me lol, because few other shows I've watched have lived up to it.

[sugarbaker design]

1 minute ago, TaraS1 said:

Like Ryan said about auntie Claire, she's always been there.  And no matter how many times Claire screws up, her fragility and her utter despair and desperation for Catherine to love her just rips my heart out. 

When Ryan stuck up for Claire like that, it opened my heart.  That kid is special.  I loved his awkward smile when Catharine's boss asked if he'd be a new recruit.

12 hours ago, marybennet said:

I think the show was not interested in the Faisal and Hepworth plots,

It was the same plot, no?  It was the B story, the B story is always less interesting than the A story.

11 hours ago, aghst said:

He was glad that Catherine raised Ryan in better circumstances and probably did better than he would have.

Probably?  

[AZChristian]

Loved the show.  Sad it's over.  I never thought I'd see Siobhan Finneran so successful in such a sympathetic role, but she was awesome, especially during this last season.  Hope there's a BAFTA in her future.

 

[aghst]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

Probably?  

Sure but in his mind, Ryan should have been with him and Catherine took that away from him.

But he could see all the mementos of Ryan's childhood, how Ryan was surrounded by very caring relatives, gave him a better upbringing than he had and that he could provide.

So he's grudgingly accepting that while he felt wronged, it was probably for Ryan's best interests.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I appreciated that the wrap-ups of the Hepworth and Darius cases were so quickly dispensed with. I didn't need to see Catherine collar these culprits herself.

I didn't need to see Catherine collar these guys herself either, but the season spent a LOT of time on these stories, and I thought they got a bit of a short shrift in this episode. I'd have at least liked a scene where we see the cops go into the pharmacy, or we see Faisal being led out in handcuffs, or something like that.

One thing about the Hepworth story that was interesting was when Catherine learned grandparents would likely be raising the two young daughters, and you could see all the emotions about that running across her face. Sarah Lancashire was SO GOOD.

1 hour ago, TaraS1 said:

no cops being posted at Catherine's

I know! I get why the did that—so we could have the kitchen showdown—but it was such a glaring WTF. There's no way the house wouldn't have been watched, especially since I think it was only a day after Tommy escaped. (The time frame was a bit muddled, but it probably doesn't matter.)

43 minutes ago, aghst said:

So he's grudgingly accepting that while he felt wronged, it was probably for Ryan's best interests.

I agree. I think that's one of the reasons Tommy said he forgave Catherine. (I loved her reaction to that.) He could see she obviously did the best she could for Ryan, and it's hard to argue with that, when that's what Tommy wanted to do himself.

[Milburn Stone]

22 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

and James Norton is incredible

Loved your whole post, Tara, and re Norton...Yesterday I flashed back to the scene of Tommy escaping from the dock, and an image came into my mind. That of an insect desperately escaping from a jar. He looked exactly like that. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the script actually contained that instruction: "Tommy escapes from dock, like an insect escaping for its life." Or if the director gave him that instruction. Or if that image was in James Norton's head as he prepared for the scene.

[Chaos Theory]

The biggest criticism I have with the series finale was that it was too short.  I would have liked a better ending for the side stories but it is a small nitpick and not enough to make me dislike the finale of the season even a little.  Yes the season had a little tv magic but the season wouldn’t have been the same without the confrontation between TLR and Catherine.  It wouldn’t have worked in prison and there is just something so right about having it in Catherine’s home where she raised Ryan so TLR could get a glimpse of a life that was always out of his grasp.    But there also couldn’t be any real danger so having him badly injured was a way for them to…just talk.  
 

I don’t doubt that TLR BELIEVES he loved Catherine’s daughter (sorry her name escapes me) but he loves her in a way violent men love….with violence.  He likely did abuse her.  Why she killed herself we will never really know.   But when TLR gets into a VERBAL confrontation with Catherine he is badly outmatched.  His best comeback is saying she isn’t very bright.  He thinks he is being magnanimous by “forgiving” Catherine but really does she need to ask TLR forgiveness for?   Ryan is a good man because Catherine raised him away from TLR and his violence.   What I found the most interesting was her finally admitting that it was a good thing that Ryan saw TLR for himself and got to make up his own mind.  The entire confrontation was perfect.

Also perfect was Ryan telling Catherine he was never going to run with TLR and that Claire had always been a part of his life as well.  
 

My head cannon has Ryan joining the police force much to both the chagrin and pride of Catherine

Edited June 28, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[AZChristian]

13 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Yes the season had a little tv magic but the season wouldn’t have been the same without the confrontation between TLR and Catherine.  It wouldn’t have worked in prison and there is just something so right about having it in Catherine’s home where she raised Ryan so TLR could get s glimpse of a life that was always out of his grasp.    

I wonder if Tommy Lee (yes, I know he's a fictional character) might have looked around and realized that that life might have been in his grasp, if not for his extremely bad choices.

Let's say that TL and Becky had gotten married and looked forward with great joy to the birth of their child.  He had a job, and life was good for them.  And then Becky died in childbirth, or for some reason other than TL getting her hooked on drugs.  Catherine would have opened her arms and heart to TL just as she did Ryan.  TL would have been IN those family pictures, with a big smile and happy memories.  Maybe THAT is what all his tears were about as he viewed the pictures . . . regret for what might have been, had he made different choices.

Edited June 28, 2023 by AZChristian

[Chaos Theory]

You can also kinda hand wave the weird endings for the side stories as Catherine going against the cop mold of “living the job”.    Where everyone you know, spend time with and screw….is a cop.   Now that TLR is off her plate she can walk away.   

[dubbel zout]

It's very convenient the showdown with Tommy happened on Catherine's last day at work, LOL. And I hope the squad room did get two delicious cakes.

[dargosmydaddy]

I enjoyed the final series overall, and I think the final showdown was just about perfect (other than Catherine going into the house on her own... I realize we needed that private scene between the two of them, but JFC that was stupid!) for all the reasons everyone mentioned above (also loved Tommy calling Ryan "your Ryan" to Catherine... very tiny, but also huge), but overall I thought the finale needed a little more of...something. I realize there's only so much time, and that Catherine is the focus of the show, and if everything had gotten tied up in a neat little bow it would have gone in the other direction and would have been too much, but I feel like addressing even one or two of the following would have helped.

• The Faisal/ Hepworth storyline just kind of fizzled out. I know they're the B plot, but the B plots in previous series were better served. This one already felt like a rehash of the previous B plots (put-upon beta male makes a terrible choice in desperation), and the non-ending felt unsatisfying.
• Richard was Catherine's main confidant throughout this series (thanks to the falling out with Clare), and then doesn't even appear in the finale. Nor did Ann... even just a brief scene of her being involved in an arrest or something would have been nice, to show how she's coping. And don't even get me started on poor Daniel, the most neglected character of the whole series. (I'm still pissed about his character assassination in series 2...why did he have to cheat on his pregnant wife? And then the baby--Catherine's other grandchild--is never mentioned again! If they wanted Daniel single it would have been just as easy to have had the wife miscarry and they drift apart afterwards, or have the wife be the one who cheated and the baby wasn't Daniel's, but no...)
• The awkward scene with the bigwig boss while Catherine packs up her office was fine, but I call bs that she was able to quietly sneak away in the midst of her own party and no one noticed/ said anything. Despite all the teasing, it's clear that her colleagues really do adore her, so that just felt weird. Some kind of little closure with alien guy, or a quick goodbye with Joyce, Mike, or Shaf would have been nice. And what became of the money Joyce wasn't sure what to do with?
• If I remember correctly, both of the first two series also ended in the cemetery, so that was nice, but Ryan was in those other scenes, and I didn't really like his absence here. Catherine is clearly ready to drive off into the sunset in the Land Rover, and good for her, she deserves some alone time, but... her sixteen-year-old grandson has had a pretty traumatic time of things, too, and it just felt weird that we see nothing of him in the end, and Clare is presumably going to be the one telling him his dad died, etc. If they really wanted to come full circle, Ryan should have been there in the end (and maybe Catherine finally agrees he can get that dog...).

All in all I think it didn't quite end as well as it could have, which is a shame for an overall excellent show. Keeping my fingers crossed that Endeavour does a better job with its finale on Sunday!

[Milburn Stone]

(Also posted this as its own topic in Other Dramas...)

As a result of finishing Happy Valley, we went in search of other Sarah Lancashire shows, and found The Accident from 2019. A contemporary story involving a small Welsh town and, well, an accident. Four episodes, of which we've watched the first two. It's good.

[gesundheit]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:56 PM, aghst said:

To me the ending left it a little more ambiguous that Tommy is this monster and nothing else.

He was glad that Catherine raised Ryan in better circumstances and probably did better than he would have.

Tommy's reaction to seeing Ryan seemed genuine, like seeing him brought him some joy.

Of course it's unrealistic of him to expect that Ryan would run off with him, since Catherine has been taking care of him all his life.

But it makes you wonder if Tommy isn't right that Catherine never gave him a chance, wrote him off early and tried to keep Ryan from him.

 

Tommy was a serial killer and a serial rapist who also had no qualms about killing children, Catherine was proven right about him a hundred-fold. I thought any decency in Tommy's final moments was due entirely to knowing he was going to die -- decency we never would have otherwise seen had he lived to 100. His magnanimity about not burning the house down was canceled out a bit when he then lit himself on fire in said house moments later.

I do think monstrous psychopaths can like people and want those people to be happy (if it doesn't inconvenience the psychopath in question at all), especially when those people can feel like an extension of themselves (like a bio-son). I don't think wanting a good life for Ryan after his death really says very much about Tommy -- if Tommy could have freedom via somehow sacrificing Ryan's happiness, Tommy would've made that choice without batting an eye. I love that he didn't get redeemed at all, but also wasn't pure cartoon villain in the end.

On 6/27/2023 at 11:36 AM, dubbel zout said:

I didn't need to see Catherine collar these guys herself either, but the season spent a LOT of time on these stories, and I thought they got a bit of a short shrift in this episode. I'd have at least liked a scene where we see the cops go into the pharmacy, or we see Faisal being led out in handcuffs, or something like that.

One thing about the Hepworth story that was interesting was when Catherine learned grandparents would likely be raising the two young daughters, and you could see all the emotions about that running across her face. Sarah Lancashire was SO GOOD.

To me it honestly felt like the "there's a granny in the picture" moment was the reason they wrote that B-plot at all, and as long as they got that, they weren't much concerned with how it played out. Definitely not as strong a season, plot-wise. But I'm still incredibly satisfied because of what it gave Lancashire and Norton the space to do. Heck, they could've made that confrontation a full episode long and I would've been on the edge of my seat.

[zoey1996]

Tommy tucked the knife up his sleeve because he presumed the guys picking him up were going to kill him rather than deliver him to a safe place. Were they going to kill him? Or was it just his paranoia? I could easily believe that they would kill rather than get caught themselves.

 

[peeayebee]

I thought they were going to kill him. One sign was the can of gasoline in the backseat. I assume they were going to kill him or at least incapacitate him and then set him on fire. 

[Quilt Fairy]

One thing I thought was interesting (and fitting, I guess) was that the series ended with TLR setting himself on fire and it began back in the very first episode with Catharine trying (successfully) to talk someone out of setting himself on fire. 

[pasdetrois]

Because I'm cheap, I waited until the series ended and then binged Season 3 during a week's free trial on Acorn. But I read the posts here in advance because I knew they would be insightful.

The Hepworth story was boring and distracting. I wanted to see only the Catherine/Ryan/Tommy story, especially since the series has ended and we won't see this amazing trio of actors together again.

Did we find out why the little Hepworth daughter never took off her coat? Bruises? Psychological protection? To ward off creepy daddy?

And beautiful Yorkshire never disappoints, even in dreary rain.

Claire seemed oddly dim compared to the first season. She had a sharper tongue and was often annoyed or exasperated, at least in my memory. Did being in recovery turn her into a little mouse?

I appreciated that the finale avoided tropes. TLR sneaking into the house and not attempting to take the entire family hostage was a pleasant surprise. The scene where Catherine secretly alerted 000 (I think it was) and the entire police force sprang into action was marvelous.

I had a hard time accepting a psychopath's sorrow and affectionate personality, but I presume they were in service of him building a fantasy of himself of a perfect dad with a son who does exactly what he wants. He wept because he would cease to exist.

We are going around the house saying "would you like some ceke," "our Susie's birthday is next week," "hand me the phone love," and "hiya."

Torahh to this exceptional show.

Edited July 2, 2023 by pasdetrois

[Roseanna]

On 6/27/2023 at 4:56 AM, aghst said:

But it makes you wonder if Tommy isn't right that Catherine never gave him a chance, wrote him off early and tried to keep Ryan from him.

It's not unlike the Rutger Hauer character at the end of Blade Runner, where this figure who inspired terror turns out to have some nobility, some motives other than killing or wreaking sadistic violence on others.

Not saying there's nobility in Tommy, just that me may not be as bad as Catherine always seen him.  He wasn't going to be a good father and he probably wasn't going to stay out of trouble or avoid violence, given how he grew up.  He wasn't victimized by circumstance and he was certainly not a victim -- he was going to kill rather than be killed, as we saw once again.

Catherine's main concern was whether Ryan would inherit Tommy's inclination towards violence and destroying people like she believed that he destroyed her daughter.  So she may not have seen beyond the monstrous acts, nor should she as a policewoman and guardian of her grandson.

 

On 6/29/2023 at 9:37 PM, gesundheit said:

Tommy was a serial killer and a serial rapist who also had no qualms about killing children, Catherine was proven right about him a hundred-fold. I thought any decency in Tommy's final moments was due entirely to knowing he was going to die -- decency we never would have otherwise seen had he lived to 100. His magnanimity about not burning the house down was canceled out a bit when he then lit himself on fire in said house moments later.

I do think monstrous psychopaths can like people and want those people to be happy (if it doesn't inconvenience the psychopath in question at all), especially when those people can feel like an extension of themselves (like a bio-son). I don't think wanting a good life for Ryan after his death really says very much about Tommy -- if Tommy could have freedom via somehow sacrificing Ryan's happiness, Tommy would've made that choice without batting an eye. I love that he didn't get redeemed at all, but also wasn't pure cartoon villain in the end.

To me it honestly felt like the "there's a granny in the picture" moment was the reason they wrote that B-plot at all, and as long as they got that, they weren't much concerned with how it played out. Definitely not as strong a season, plot-wise. But I'm still incredibly satisfied because of what it gave Lancashire and Norton the space to do. Heck, they could've made that confrontation a full episode long and I would've been on the edge of my seat.

I just can't understand aghast. Catherine never gave Tommy a chance with Ryan? Tommy wasn't as bad as she believed?

I absolutely agree with gesundheit. Already in the first season we saw Tommy rape Ann, kill several people (including his two buddies) and he would have killed his own son, by burning him alive no less, if Catherine had prevented him. 

In the first season Clare talked that Tommy maybe would have some legal rights as a biological father. I can't understand and accept that kind of law. Biology doesn't make one a parent, except nominally. 

[Roseanna]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:28 PM, Chaos Theory said:

there is just something so right about having it in Catherine’s home where she raised Ryan so TLR could get a glimpse of a life that was always out of his grasp.    But there also couldn’t be any real danger so having him badly injured was a way for them to…just talk.  

 

On 6/28/2023 at 4:37 PM, AZChristian said:

I wonder if Tommy Lee (yes, I know he's a fictional character) might have looked around and realized that that life might have been in his grasp, if not for his extremely bad choices.

Let's say that TL and Becky had gotten married and looked forward with great joy to the birth of their child.  He had a job, and life was good for them.  And then Becky died in childbirth, or for some reason other than TL getting her hooked on drugs.  Catherine would have opened her arms and heart to TL just as she did Ryan.  TL would have been IN those family pictures, with a big smile and happy memories.  Maybe THAT is what all his tears were about as he viewed the pictures . . . regret for what might have been, had he made different choices.

I doubt Tommy ever had an ability to make "right choices" and lead a normal life. Maybe his brain was damaged already at birth by his addict mother and certainly she damaged him during childhood (that's why he so hated that his son was raised by an old woman).

On the other hand, Becky was raised by Catherine and Richard. So why did she chose a man like Tommy (she actually liked him, her brother claimed in the firts season).