S03.E01: Chapter Seventeen - The Apostate

[paigow]

9 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

How do mandalorian find mates?

Non Fatal Combat... Looks are not The Way...

[FnkyChkn34]

21 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was so sure the bit at the beginning was a flashback about Din getting his helmet and taking his vows, since we've seen flashbacks of how he first encountered the Mandalorians before and flashbacks seem to be a staple of all the Star Wars TV series. When he was interrupted before completing his vow to never take the helmet off, I was all, "Aha! Loophole! He never actually vowed!" And then adult Din showed up, so there went that theory. I'm sure that was an intentional misdirect, or else they would have had the kid be blond or red-haired, or else have a British accent or otherwise be totally unlike Din instead of casting a kid you could kind of imagine could be a young Din.

 

This was my second thought as well.  The actor is Jimmy Kimmel's nephew, Wesley Kimmel.  I'm sure all of those misdirects were put in there deliberately.  Jon Favreau knows what he's doing... 

 

(Edited to remove YouTube link that OP took down.)

Edited March 3, 2023 by FnkyChkn34

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

 

I haven't seen The Clone Wars yet but as I understand she had the Dark Saber before but didn't win it in combat so things fell apart with the other Mandalorians. And then in this show, she tells them she's going to go get it and comes back empty handed because she somehow managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Since then she's been sitting around brooding while the others have gone off to accomplish what they can. Hey Bo Katan, has it occurred to you that you kind of suck at this? Mando may stumble often but at least he fails in an upward trajectory. And he has a generally positive attitude even when he does encounter random setbacks.

It has occurred to her. In Rebels she basically says the same thing but is convinced she’s the right person to lead. 

Personally, I liked Bo here. Particularly her line, “Wave that thing (the dark saber) around and they'll do whatever you say.” I didn’t think she was sulking as much as being completely disgusted with all the crap about the Mandalorian way. 

The others went off to mercenaries so I’m not they went off to accomplish much if anything.  

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

In Bo Katan's defense, she fought long and hard for Mandalore - once she had realized that the Death Watch were a bunch of traitors. She should be over 50 now - super pissy does wonders for your complexion, Sackhoff being a good decade younger than the character also helps. And just when she came close to uniting the exiled Mandalorians (via ownership of the Dark Saber) she loses saber and support to someone whose whole knowledge of Mandalorian history and culture seems to consist of not much more than 'This is the Way' and some semi-mythic tidbits he only just learned. Dammit Mando, google your own history! 

Exactly. 

[Sarah 103]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:41 AM, Gillian Rosh said:

Nevarro has had quite the glow up. I'm liking it, though there seems to be some tension with its scummy and villainous past.

It was pure High Noon and I loved it. 

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The spinning in the office chair was basically every little kid visiting a parents' office.

I had the exact same thought.

It was the first episode of a new season, so table setting was the bulk of the episode. I enjoyed the episode. We had Grogu being adorable, some fun action scenes, and a pretty clear indication of what the major story arcs will be this season. 

[pezgirl7]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm sure that was an intentional misdirect, or else they would have had the kid be blond or red-haired, or else have a British accent or otherwise be totally unlike Din instead of casting a kid you could kind of imagine could be a young Din.

Fun fact: the kid is Jimmy Kimmel's nephew, Wesley Kimmel. It was talked about it when Jon Favreau was on Jimmy's show the other night. Wesley also played the Tusken child that bonded with Boba Fett, and it sounds like the show runners liked his work on BOBF, and decided to give him another job.

[magdalene]

I fear for Greef and Nevarro.  What's stopping Space Swamp Thing and his crew from revenge against him and Nevarro?

I want Din to come to the conclusion that he doesn't need his cult and their stupid helmet rule to be a fulfilled Mandalorian.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, pezgirl7 said:

Fun fact: the kid is Jimmy Kimmel's nephew, Wesley Kimmel. It was talked about it when Jon Favreau was on Jimmy's show the other night. Wesley also played the Tusken child that bonded with Boba Fett, and it sounds like the show runners liked his work on BOBF, and decided to give him another job.

This kid has been busy lately, too.  He was also in the new rom com starring Ashton Kutcher and Reese Witherspoon.  

[paigow]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

I fear for Greef and Nevarro.  What's stopping Space Swamp Thing and his crew from revenge against him and Nevarro?

Grogu can use the Force to ask for help from...

[bethy]

I loved Greef Karga “translating” for the Anzellans. That whole scene made me giggle and go “aww” that Mando considered the IG unit a friend he could trust even after it initially tried to kill the baby. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Orbert said:

 

So instead we (Mrs Orbert and I) are wondering who all those other Mandalorians were.  They had different colored armor and stuff, so they were different sects?  Did The Armorer give them shit about taking their helmets off, too?

I’m guessing they were all members of the Children of the Watch and all would have taken the oath. Since it’s basically a cult, I can’t imagine they play well with less fanatical Mandalorians. The different color armor can mean a lot of different things. 

7 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I haven't seen The Clone Wars yet but as I understand she had the Dark Saber before but didn't win it in combat so things fell apart with the other Mandalorians. And then in this show, she tells them she's going to go get it and comes back empty handed because she somehow managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Since then she's been sitting around brooding while the others have gone off to accomplish what they can. Hey Bo Katan, has it occurred to you that you kind of suck at this? Mando may stumble often but at least he fails in an upward trajectory. And he has a generally positive attitude even when he does encounter random setbacks.

In fairness to Bo, she led Mandalore twice and both times ultimately lost because she was a good enough leader to pose a legitimate threat to the Empire. All that stuff about the Dark Saber is really just more of the Mandalorian ritualistic crap used to unite usually warring clans under a single ruler. 

5 hours ago, magdalene said:

I want Din to come to the conclusion that he doesn't need his cult and their stupid helmet rule to be a fulfilled Mandalorian.

I’ve always felt that is where this show is ultimately going. 

[callmebetty]

I feel that way about the Jedi's and their stupid no attachments philosophy. 

I've always theorized Din and Grogu we find their own way in what in means to be a Mandalorian and a Jedi.

[tkc]

14 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

They’re like a shorter version of ZZ Top…

[tv echo]

IIRC, at the end of Season 1, the Mandalorian said to a droid (IG-11?) that "no living thing" has seen him without his helmet since he made the oath. The droid replied that he was not a living thing, so Mando removed his helmet then. He only broke the oath when he removed his helmet in front of Grogu.

So Mandalorians can remove their helmets when they are alone or in front of non-living things, which would enable them to wash, eat or whatever.

The oath about never removing the helmet is misleading because it sounds absolute but there is a silent, implied "in front of any living thing" attached to the end.

Edited March 3, 2023 by tv echo

[pezgirl7]

58 minutes ago, tv echo said:

He only broke the oath when he removed his helmet in front of Grogu.

And in front of Bill Burr and some empire folks! The helmet rule is stupid, so I hope Din drops it at some point, but I still don't want him taking it off too much. Wearing it adds some mystique. I still wonder if there's a loophole in the rule that allows them to remove the helmet in front of their family, assuming they're even allowed to get married and have children? I thought the rule was in place to protect their identities, but you'd think they'd be safe with their families. 

[MissLucas]

He also removed the helmet for Grogu in front of Luke and Fennec Shand.

[Capricasix]

35 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

He also removed the helmet for Grogu in front of Luke and Fennec Shand.

Only Luke and Grogu could see his face, though. He had his back turned to Bo-Katan, Fennec, Cara, and Koska.

[FnkyChkn34]

58 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

And in front of Bill Burr and some empire folks! The helmet rule is stupid, so I hope Din drops it at some point, but I still don't want him taking it off too much. Wearing it adds some mystique. I still wonder if there's a loophole in the rule that allows them to remove the helmet in front of their family, assuming they're even allowed to get married and have children? I thought the rule was in place to protect their identities, but you'd think they'd be safe with their families. 

According to a YouTube video that I just watched, with commentary and a breakdown of easter eggs in episode 1, they are allowed.  He said that they can take off their helmets in front of their immediate family in the privacy of their own homes.  He said that not all Mandalorians are foundlings, so they can take off their helmets to ...ahem... make new Mandalorians.  Also when eating as a family, or relaxing and sleeping (basically only when in front of their significant other and children).  I can't see them doing much relaxing, and Din leaves his helmet on when sleeping in his own ship, so I don't know if that guy is right, but I'd hope so. 

However, Grogu is Din's son now, and he doesn't take it off when it's just the two of them.  This must be another rule that Din doesn't know, or thinks that Grogu doesn't count?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

So Mandalorians can remove their helmets when they are alone or in front of non-living things, which would enable them to wash, eat or whatever.

That was confirmed in the third or fourth episode. The women in Santuary asked when was the last time he took the helmet off and he said yesterday. 

 

1 hour ago, pezgirl7 said:

I still wonder if there's a loophole in the rule that allows them to remove the helmet in front of their family, assuming they're even allowed to get married and have children? I thought the rule was in place to protect their identities, but you'd think they'd be safe with their families. 

I doubt there is a loophole. There are too many parallels between the extremist sect Din was raised in and the Jedi for it to not be deliberate. All the emphasis on the foundlings make me think they don’t form traditional families and expand in the same manner as the Jedi with younglings.

 

24 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

According to a YouTube video that I just watched, with commentary and a breakdown of easter eggs in episode 1, they are allowed.  He said that they can take off their helmets in front of their immediate family in the privacy of their own homes.  He said that not all Mandalorians are foundlings, so they can take off their helmets to ...ahem... make new Mandalorians. 

Was that an official commentary or a fan one? I’m curious because there is lot of confusion around the normal rules for Mandalorians and for The Children of the Watch.  I’ve never seen anything official to suggest this is true for Din’s sect. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

18 hours ago, paigow said:

Grogu can use the Force to ask for help from...

Who the hell is that supposed to be? 🤣

[Anela]

The little electricians, or whatever they are, kill me. I remember them from one of the movies. 

[paigow]

Mando has a lot of post quest options:

• Rejoin his cult
• Rejoin Boba & Fennec
• Settle down in Deadwood  Nevarro
• Hook up with Bo-Katan in her Fortress Of Solitude

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

He only broke the oath when he removed his helmet in front of Grogu.

Earlier, he removed his helmet in front of Bill Burr.

[Capricasix]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

The little electricians, or whatever they are, kill me. I remember them from one of the movies. 

“No squeezy! Bad baby” 🤣

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

Was that an official commentary or a fan one? I’m curious because there is lot of confusion around the normal rules for Mandalorians and for The Children of the Watch.  I’ve never seen anything official to suggest this is true for Din’s sect. 

Nothing official; it's from this fan account (who has 4.4 million followers).  He says it around the 3 minute mark, and seems confident, like he's seen or read it somewhere else.  Like I said, I don't know if he's right, but I'd like to think so.  

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by FnkyChkn34

[Guest]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Nothing official; it's from this fan account (who has 4.4 million followers).  He says it around the 3 minute mark, and seems confident, like he's seen or read it somewhere else.  Like I said, I don't know if he's right, but I'd like to think so.  

Thanks for posting it. I’m inclined to stick with what we’ve seen on the show. In a way, if this is true, it would make me more sad for Din. In the first season he says he hadn’t taken the helmet off in front of anyone since he put it on. If they can take it off in front of their immediate family that would mean foundlings aren’t considered anyone’s child and have no family while other kids did. 

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

Thanks for posting it. I’m inclined to stick with what we’ve seen on the show. In a way, if this is true, it would make me more sad for Din. In the first season he says he hadn’t taken the helmet off in front of anyone since he put it on. If they can take it off in front of their immediate family that would mean foundlings aren’t considered anyone’s child and have no family while other kids did. 

That's true, but is it possible that after Din had his ceremony, then he was forced out on his own?  Maybe they aren't foundlings anymore after they take their oath...  He's been a lone ranger, so he's never had a family as an adult?

I think what a lot of people rely on is the entire world of Star Wars canon, which I am not familiar with so I have no idea.  Plus, I think Favreau and Filoni might be trying to change or create new canon.  We'll just have to watch and see!

[paigow]

George Lucas got very protective of HIS own cinematic canon... So he unilaterally declared almost all Comic Book and Novels as non-canon.  However, Filoni built a compelling Clone Wars canon by blending Comics, Novels and his own ideas that convinced Lucas to accept it. Then continued with Rebels and The Mandalorian

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Plus, I think Favreau and Filoni might be trying to change or create new canon.  

 

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think what a lot of people rely on is the entire world of Star Wars canon, which I am not familiar with so I have no idea.  Plus, I think Favreau and Filoni might be trying to change or create new canon.  We'll just have to watch and see!

Almost everything about Mandalorian history/culture comes from Filoni and Favreau. Lucas only had a rough idea for some super soldiers but then turned them into a single bounty hunter (Boba Fett) wearing a Mandalorian armor. Once folks got really crazy about the character (who's not even Mandalorian) Filoni and Favreau started world- and lore-building in Clone Wars, Rebels and now this show. 

[Morrigan2575]

8 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Almost everything about Mandalorian history/culture comes from Filoni

It's pretty much all Filoni, he's the guy behind Clone Wars and Rebels where the Mandalorian Culture was explored.  Now, I do remember bits and, pieces of Mandalorian culture was explained in Knights of the Old Republic by Canderous Ordo so I assume Filoni (a huge Star Wars nerd) pulled from all available media and wove together the current understanding of New Republic Mandalorians.  

The Mandalorian is just really building on Rebels and Clone Wars.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think what a lot of people rely on is the entire world of Star Wars canon, which I am not familiar with so I have no idea.  

I’m pretty much only familiar with the movies and tv shows so I’m sure there is plenty I have no clue about. However, the Children of the Watch were introduced on the Mandalorian. There have been a handful of novels about them but for the most part everything about them comes directly from the show. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I’m pretty much only familiar with the movies and tv shows so I’m sure there is plenty I have no clue about. However, the Children of the Watch were introduced on the Mandalorian. There have been a handful of novels about them but for the most part everything about them comes directly from the show. 

I think some comes from the several animated series, too.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think some comes from the several animated series, too.

Death Watch does appear in the animated shows but the Children of the Watch is new for this show with completely different rules. Death Watch was a terrorist group and Bo was a member. The rules Din follows are not consistent with anything shown on Clone Wars or Rebels. 

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, Dani said:

Death Watch does appear in the animated shows but the Children of the Watch is new for this show with completely different rules. Death Watch was a terrorist group and Bo was a member. The rules Din follows are not consistent with anything shown on Clone Wars or Rebels. 

I just found this on Wookiepedia, for what it's worth:

"In the French version of The Mandalorian, Children of the Watch is translated as Les Héritiers de la Death Watch (The Heirs of the Death Watch). Together with the fact that Djarin was raised as a foundling in the Tribe after being rescued from a Separatist attack on Aq Vetina by Death Watch members, and the fact that the Children of the Watch adhered to the Way of the Mandalore and other customs abandoned by the New Mandalorians, this suggests that the Children of the Watch may be an offshoot of the Death Watch."

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Children_of_the_Watch

Thanks for helping me learn!  This has been an interesting conversation! 

[MissLucas]

Death Watch and the Children of the Watch are also linked by members of clan Vizsla. Pre Vizsla was the leader of Death Watch. Paz Vizsla had it out for Din since season one (he was the one pissed off by Din doing business with the Empire) and tried to win the Dark Saber in a duel with Din (in the Boba Fett-Mando episode). He will try again as he considers the Dark Saber a family heirloom. It has never been established how he's related to Paz Vizsla. Given the timeline brother or son are possible (or cousin or nephew). 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Death Watch and the Children of the Watch are also linked by members of clan Vizsla. Pre Vizsla was the leader of Death Watch. Paz Vizsla had it out for Din since season one (he was the one pissed off by Din doing business with the Empire) and tried to win the Dark Saber in a duel with Din (in the Boba Fett-Mando episode). He will try again as he considers the Dark Saber a family heirloom. It has never been established how he's related to Paz Vizsla. Given the timeline brother or son are possible (or cousin or nephew). 

They’re also both voiced by Jon Favreau so it’s probably a close relation. I hope that the connection between Death Watch and The Children of the Watch is something the show will explore. I will be interesting if Bo-Katan and Paz Vizsla meet at some point.
 

I feel like Bo-Katan is going to be used to open a lot of doors narratively since she has been at the center of the action going all the way back to the Clone Wars. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Mando flies in to save the day all cool like, "Hey, gang! Whassup?"

Season 3 definitely got a bigger budget. Nevarro looked amazing.

That's High Magistrate to you.

Boken.

So glad this show is back. It's Pedro Pascal's world; we just live in it.

I keep seeing that this episode had some references to TBOBF. Is it necessary to have watched TBOBF in addition to the previous two seasons of The Mandalorian? I had decidedly chosen to skip the Boba Fett series because I had already gotten overwhelmed trying to keep up with Star Trek and MCU canon across multiple TV shows and movies.

Quote

When Mando first got into town, Greef mentioned, "the Belters are mining the asteroid fields".

I picked up on the Belters reference but then sort of shrugged it off, so I'm glad to see that bit of dialogue confirmed as an actual nod to The Expanse. The Expanse must be highly respected among sci-fi producers because this is like the 4th or 5th TV show I've seen point to it.

[MissLucas]

43 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I keep seeing that this episode had some references to TBOBF. Is it necessary to have watched TBOBF in addition to the previous two seasons of The Mandalorian?

Episodes 5 & 6 deal with how Mando meets the Armorer again and gets into the current mess by admitting that he had removed his helmet. And of course we got an explanation how he reunited with Grogu and why Grogu left Jedi training. You can also watch recaps on YT if you don't want to honor their weird decision to hijack another show for some pretty important plot points for this show.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I keep seeing that this episode had some references to TBOBF. Is it necessary to have watched TBOBF in addition to the previous two seasons of The Mandalorian?

No. As @MissLucas said you can just read the recap. You might want to watch episode 5 since it is basically a standalone Mandalorian episode. It covers Din being exiled and how he gets his new ship. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I keep seeing that this episode had some references to TBOBF. Is it necessary to have watched TBOBF in addition to the previous two seasons of The Mandalorian? I had decidedly chosen to skip the Boba Fett series because I had already gotten overwhelmed trying to keep up with Star Trek and MCU canon across multiple TV shows and movies.

IMO, episodes 5, 6, and 7 are worth it.  They are just The Mandalorian Season 2.5.  Like the others have explained, episode 5 explains Din's exile, but 6 and 7 explain where Grogu has been and how they reunited.  Episode 7 has the most Boba Fett, but I also think the mid-credit scene will be important for this Season 3.  You can just fast forward the Boba Fett parts in 6 and 7 if you want. 

[DoctorAtomic]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:05 PM, Dani said:

That was the first thing I thought of when they appeared. 

I first said "are those the space whales?" I mean, who has the strongest association with them but Ezra? That's literally the last we saw him. 

My favorite line is "So is it you can't take your helmet off or show your face?" You bathe in some special mine? I couldn't roll my eyes enough. Yes, that makes you 'Mandalorian' of course. I think of that line a lot in real life because people make up all sorts of nonsense to justify what they're doing. 

It's the same with the dark saber. Oh, we can't come with you to liberate our home world because you don't have the right tool. Mando doesn't even want it. Bo seemed to share my opinion. 

I did enjoy the show though. 

 

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's the same with the dark saber. Oh, we can't come with you to liberate our home world because you don't have the right tool. Mando doesn't even want it. Bo seemed to share my opinion. 

This is similar to Asgardian rules about Hammers etc... Although Mandalore is now essentially unpopulated - so it seems that reclamation rather than defeating an occupying army would be the next step...

[DoctorAtomic]

Even more reason why the sabre isn't really necessary. They're really their own worst enemies. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's the same with the dark saber. Oh, we can't come with you to liberate our home world because you don't have the right tool. Mando doesn't even want it. Bo seemed to share my opinion. 

It didn’t occur to me last season when she was focused on trying to get it but is makes sense Bo finds the whole concept stupid. She was one of the few to not follow Maul just because he won the dark saber in combat. 

[MissLucas]

Another good reason for Bo to dislike the Dark Saber: it's the weapon that killed her sister.

[AnimeMania]

[FnkyChkn34]

And the concept art... Adorable both ways! 

[WendyCR72]

Grogu's version of a teddy bear. Hee.

[Zahdii]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Grogu's version of a teddy bear. Hee.

He needs some toys, and maybe later on a pet.

[callmebetty]

21 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

The goggles all askew kills me

[lucindabelle]

As an over 50 woman just here to say we can look that good.

but we do need reading glasses.

im serious. How do mandalorian deal with reading glasses??? 
cuz I have to take them OFF to do anything BUT read, something my students don’t understand and think I’m just taking them on and off for fun or something.

do you have to have perfect vision to be a Mandalorian? 
 

Grogu is a member of his family now so why can’t Grogu see his face?