S01.E07: Left Behind

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

Since Ellie ended up with Marlene and not FEDRA, it seems pretty obvious that Marlene or emissary came to get/connect with Riley and found Ellie -- then took Ellie into custody instead of killing her when her situation seemed unusual.

They didn't shoot her because they showed up long enough that Riley had turned and Ellie hadn't. Someone (Marlene) was smart enough to take Ellie in to consider the situation (we already saw Ellie chained up for several days and tested for neurological responses).

This could be the correct scenario, the problem with it for me though is that we're 20 years into an apocalypse where everyone bitten has turned into a homicidal fungus monster, everyone who has survived this long will have it ingrained into them to kill someone who is infected before they turn and kill you. Marlene warns Ellie not to tell anyone she has been bitten for this reason. You'd need some pretty extraordinary evidence to change your  reflex reaction on this one and i'm not sure finding riley has turned and Ellie hasn't yet is sufficient evidence as Marlene, in this case, would not know that the two had been bitten at the same time. a far more plausible explanation to them would be that Ellie had been bitten later on.

Marlene tells Ellie that the other fireflies had wanted to kill her, it's only Marlene who doesn't, and it's only Marlene who is not afraid of Ellie. I wouldn't say for certain that this is the case, but i think it possible that Marlene  already knows Ellie is special, why else have the writers given Marlene a prior connection to Ellie, what other purpose does it serve to the narrative?

I do wonder if there is still a bit more to play out with Riley and Ellie in the mall. What were the pipe bombs for? Is this a Chekov's pipe bomb situation, where Riley decides to carry out a suicide mission and kill some FEDRA types?

[paigow]

21 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

I do wonder if there is still a bit more to play out with Riley and Ellie in the mall. What were the pipe bombs for? Is this a Chekov's pipe bomb situation, where Riley decides to carry out a suicide mission and kill some FEDRA types?

Assuming that Marlene truly wants to relocate Riley, then the bombs are for other Fireflies.

[grawlix]

30 minutes ago, BasilSeal said:

I do wonder if there is still a bit more to play out with Riley and Ellie in the mall. What were the pipe bombs for? Is this a Chekov's pipe bomb situation, where Riley decides to carry out a suicide mission and kill some FEDRA types?

I saw this as Marlene giving a new recruit a chance to prove their usefulness.    Put Riley in an isolated area and give her a difficult and risky task to complete within a specified time.  If Riley is successful, Marlene knows she has a valuable recruit and also adds to the pipe bomb supply.   If Riley fails to produce the bombs, Marlene downgrades her assessment of Riley's abilities.  And if Riley blows herself up, there is little collateral damage to the Firefly movement.

[CrazyDog]

I thought this was a lovely episode. 

It seemed pretty clear to me that Ellie likely had to kill Riley, as others have mentioned, due to comments from Ellie in previous episodes. I didn't need to see it happen though, so I'm actually glad they didn't show it.

It still seems like (if they wanted to include more in the season) that there is a lot more story that could have been included. I would have loved 12 or 14 episodes this season. Everything still feels very rushed.

I didn't quite feel the connection between Riley and Ellie, though they were very sweet together, and I would have loved to seen more of their friendship and relationship, and life in the school together. Seeing Riley get drawn into the Fireflies, while Ellie starts getting a future at Fedra could have been an interesting episode. The lead Fedra soldier was interesting. 

But overall, the episode was sad and beautifully filmed. Bella is really an amazing actress. Seeing her actually happy (her expression when the mall lights up!) before her life falls apart, again, was so sad. She really seemed like the kid she is in that moment.

It was heartbreaking too when Joel was telling her to go, and his expression when he initially thought she was leaving. And then the hand squeeze at the end. 

And I couldn't even watch the stitching up scene. So much dirt. So much bacteria. I'll just pretend there's a magically still functional bag o' antibiotics lying around.

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think we can also see some of her antipathy towards her immunity and her supposedly magical bite. It might be the bite that saves the world, but its also a memory of the time the person she loved most in the world died while she survived. 

Such a great point. Carrying a constant reminder of such a horrible night, and likely having to deal with a lot of survivor's guilt and "what ifs."

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

But overall, the episode was sad and beautifully filmed. Bella is really an amazing actress. Seeing her actually happy (her expression when the mall lights up!) before her life falls apart, again, was so sad. She really seemed like the kid she is in that moment.

She really did a great job. I especially noticed that even though she isn't really older in the current time she really looked more youthful in the flashbacks. And it was all just facial expressions. Which makes sense because all the shit she has seen with Joel and walking like half way across the US would make anyone look older.

7 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

And I couldn't even watch the stitching up scene. So much dirt. So much bacteria. I'll just pretend there's a magically still functional bag o' antibiotics lying around.

I am no doctor but would a sterile needle have mattered at this point? She has no way of cleaning out the wound from that dirty old baseball bat. Plus he was lying on a dirty mattress with dirty clothes and a dirty blanket. And she was using her bare hands and other dirty clothes to put pressure on the wound.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[conquistador]

29 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not doctor but would a sterile needle have mattered at this point? She has no way of cleaning out the wound from that dirty old baseball bat. Plus he was lying on a dirty mattress with dirty clothes and a dirty blanket. And she was using her bare hands and other dirty clothes to put pressure on the wound.

Yeah, it’s not ideal is it. 😂

The needle is not going to make or break the situation when there have been so many contaminations already.  And it would be difficult for her to find textile that is sterile enough for this purpose (I don’t suppose she access to a stash of fresh gauze.). On the other hand, you have to be as hygienic as you can in this scenario... And the last thing Joel needs is for his wound to be even more irritated.

[TivoFan]

Apparently, Esprit stores were around until 2011, when the company started losing boatloads of money.

Per Wikipedia: 

In February 2012, Esprit announced that it planned to close all retail stores in North America because they were not competitive in this market and were losing money.

[Danny Franks]

Loved it. I knew what the episode was going to be - that it would be based heavily on the game's Left Behind DLC - and it did not disappoint. Bella Ramsey was fantastic again, going from her panicky fear over Joel to sullen, teenage moping to looking absolutely smitten and lovelorn as she looked at Riley on the carousel. And then her anguish and rage at the end, when she realised her life was over.

I liked that Riley tried to be older and wiser than Ellie, but wasn't really and still got giddy and silly over all the same things. 

I loved the decayed, rotten mall (still with an arcade packed with machines, as it would have been in 2003) and the "wonders" that were actually incredibly mundane in the real world.

Loved the sweet, tentative romance that was blossoming... briefly. But the dangers of this world just don't allow for reckless teens to be reckless. You hear, 'oh, how could they be so stupid?' as though fourteen year olds never do incredibly stupid, dangerous things in the real world.

Of course we knew what was going to happen. The show already told us - Ellie said she got bit in the mall that no one was supposed to go to, and the pregnant pause before she said she was alone told us she wasn't. But just because something is predictable, it doesn't make it bad storytelling. People seem to really want shocks and out-of-nowhere twists, which completely undercut good old tension building and foreboding.

People complaining about not enough Joel... how much shivering and groaning on an old mattress do you want to see? The man's not going anywhere, and seeing the tables turned, for him to be completely reliant on Ellie for survival, was nicely done.

It's strange, I've seen so many people saying they'd love a Joel flashback episode but when Ellie gets one, it's branded boring and disappointing. Reminds me of the people who only liked the game because it was about a tough, grizzled old dude smashing zombies... oh yeah, there's some annoying girl that tags along as well.

[Starchild]

10 hours ago, paramitch said:

I loved this episode and am really surprised at the negative reactions. I thought this was a genuinely moving chapter, and a lovely showcase for the splendid Bella Ramsey (her open yearning, vulnerability, and joy were all so lovely).

I'm into this show because I am invested in both Ellie and Joel. We already know about Joel's story thanks to the opening episodes and the fact that we experienced his loss of Sarah firsthand, as well as his ensuing early relationships with Tommy and Tess. We have learned much less about Ellie before now beyond the small hints we saw at the very end of her imprisonment. We only knew facts that had been mostly implied before now:

• Ellie had been tentatively saved by Marlene at birth, or at least placed and paid attention to
• She was rescued after being bitten in the mall
• She hesitated after saying she was alone when asked (obviously lying about that)
• She had evidently survived longer than the standard period when rescued and was still not changed by the bite/infection so Marlene didn't execute her and imprisoned her to watch her instead
• She was thrilled to see the Mortal Kombat II machine and wistful about the villain
• She later told Joel it wasn't her first time killing an infected human/acquaintance

All of these questions were answered in this episode, as well as the subtleties to Ellie -- her toughness and her ability for compassion, her wish for connection and family, and her subtle disdain for pursuing a hetero relationship, etc. 

So I loved this episode. I'm in for stories that aren't just "next step" but that are also "how" and "why." Which is why I will always love Bill and Frank's episode. As with here, sure, their episode wasn't a dynamo move-this-story-forward episode, but it had TREMENDOUS impact on the story and on the texture and complexity of the story we are watching.

Which is why found this so moving. Because I'm also deeply interested in Ellie, and I was really moved and happy to learn more about her here. I thought the FEDRA stuff was fascinating and completely realistic (the talk with the commander about her future was a fascinating "you can do better" speech -- then we realize he had already assigned Riley to shit-shoveling duty. I mean, that is BRUTAL in terms of his estimation of each of them).

I loved the confirmation that Ellie is gay, and her kiss with Riley was so moving and sweet. Especially the way we watched her shy interest throughout the episode. Just the adoring looks, the little hair fixes, the moment before the reflective window to make herself prettier (and the black eye makes it so poignant!) -- so many scenes, if you look -- Riley is looking around, at their environs, and Ellie is just gazing at Riley like she is looking at the sun on a cloudy day. Bella was just so good here, and I thought Storm Reid was equally wonderful as Riley as well. Realizing the joke book came from Riley broke my heart.

I especially loved the delicacy Neil Druckmann showed here as a writer -- loved the tension of revealing the Infected in the mall early on so that every ensuing scene is infected with that -- we want to enjoy the joy and glow of their moments but are filled with tension and dread because we know they will end (which we already knew anyway, but it adds to that). I also love that he ends on those heartbreaking moments of love between Ellie and Riley -- we already know Riley will turn, Ellie won't. We already know Ellie will have to kill Riley. We already know Ellie will survive after a certain period and find rescue from Marlene.

I was genuinely surprised we didn't have to suffer all that, especially since most shows would LOVE to show Ellie having to suffer Riley's turning without her, Ellie having to kill her. The show's delicacy and restraint in not showing that here for me was yet another example of how this is a great drama that is so much more than a standard "zombie show" (TWD would have milked that sadistic shit every single second and then some).

As far as Ellie stitching up Joel's wound -- okay, so here goes:

• My dad was a history teacher, so I still read a lot of good nonfiction and factual historical fiction. Such a wound is wholly survivable if the bleeding out can be stopped.
• The bat fragments could have missed Joel's liver and vital arteries, and seems to have
• He may still experience infection, but many many people in the middle ages through the late 1800s survived such wounds simply through their fabulous immune systems and the luck of the draw. Plenty of surgeons in the 1700s and 1800s didn't even believe in cleaning their instruments, etc.
• Maybe Ellie will still find or meet someone to give her antibiotics for Joel in his recovery.

Meanwhile, I loved this episode. Ellie -- it is implied -- did not leave Riley behind, even at the end. She didn't leave Joel either -- just like he didn't leave her. Ellie doesn't leave people.

I loved it for many of the same reasons (I'm pan/demi) and the moment the two girls were dancing on the counter, just caught up in the music and closeness, especially with the subtext that they are both wearing MONSTER MASKS -- then take their monster masks off in order to face each other and eventually kiss, I was thrilled and also hugging myself. It was a lovely moment for them even though I was terrified for them at every second (which also added to the entire LGBTQ subtext -- right?!).

I loved everything you mention here, and loved the backstory and how it showed us how and why Ellie could not leave Joel behind. She is just not that kind of person.

For me the implication was that Riley and Ellie survived for another 8-10 hours infected, Riley turned, Ellie killed her, and Marlene found Ellie and put two and two together, and imprisoned Ellie rather than killing her.

Yeah, the attacker Infected was definitely brewing to become a Clicker and kind of halfway there.

I agree with all of this, but if you read up on medieval through 18th century medicine, a surprising number of people did survive these exact things and worse (mainly, in Joel's case, as long as the bowel or liver weren't perforated, which I'm guessing they weren't). 

This! And by the same token, Ellie is smart enough to figure out how to hoist Joel over the back of a patient horse (or drag him behind) to get him to shelter.

Why does Ellie being a teenager make her romance or story less worthy than anyone else's (Joel's, for instance)? I'm not into teen dramas as a whole, but I care about Ellie as a person, so her story and romance moved me deeply.

I mean, yes, Pedro Pascal is hot (do not get me started), but it's THE LAST OF US, not THE LAST OF HIM. Also, on a shallow note, I hope you watched Narcos, because Oh, man.

OMG you are my spiritual twin!

[maystone]

6 hours ago, Capricasix said:

I saw that too, but didn’t know that A&W was Canadian only.

It's not. A&W was a regular stop for our family in the 50s back in New Britain, CT. Drive up only, no seating inside. Car-side service complete with the tray that hooked onto the car window slot. Frosted mugs of the greatest root beer.

But  back to  the show . . . maybe Marlene is a former FEDRA officer, and that's how she came to place Ellie in that school. She certainly has the presence of someone used to command.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, maystone said:

It's not. A&W was a regular stop for our family in the 50s back in New Britain, CT. Drive up only, no seating inside. Car-side service complete with the tray that hooked onto the car window slot. Frosted mugs of the greatest root beer.

Side note though Canadian A&W is way better than US A&W. 

[kay1864]

How could they not know that a headshot was required to kill the zombie? Both of them should’ve been trained on that, first thing. 
 

I know they were panicking, but Ellie repeatedly stabbed him in the abdomen, instead of the head.

[kay1864]

Also, have we learned nothing from teen slasher movies? Every single time teenagers get frisky, a monster comes out of nowhere to attack them. Sexystuff are bad for you!!

[Dev F]

12 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I agree with the second half, but I take one tiny issue with the first half here. I'm of the opinion that in the environment that people Ellie's age are growing up in, sexual orientation is such a non-issue that they don't even consider it.

Interestingly, my read is exactly the opposite: I think it's easy for us to underestimate how hard being a gay kid would be in the world of the series, because we've enjoyed twenty years of astonishing progress on gay rights that in their world didn't have a chance to happen.

This is a world where the United States fell apart two months before Massachusetts became the first state to legalize gay marriage. Where the country's last crop of liberal politicians were mostly too scared to say they supported marriage equality, instead equivocating that they believed "marriage is between a man and a woman" but that gay partners should be able to undertake "civil unions"—and even this was seen at the time as a political "liability"! And FEDRA was probably cobbled together from the remains of a military still bound by Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

And while it's tempting to think that things would've gotten better when people had much more serious problems to deal with than the existence of gay people, in fact hard times often bring out our worse rather than our better natures. Think of the rise of the Nazis in Weimar Germany, or how the social progress of the Roaring Twenties got beaten back during the Great Depression. Or, heck, just look at how the COVID outbreak worsened America's dumbest political schisms instead of healing them.

Which is a long way of saying, I think Ellie and Riley are probably growing up in a world that's pretty homophobic—maybe not substantially degraded from the situation in 2003, but probably not substantially improved either.

[Niuxita]

10 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I agree with the second half, but I take one tiny issue with the first half here. I'm of the opinion that in the environment that people Ellie's age are growing up in, sexual orientation is such a non-issue that they don't even consider it. In other words, they react strictly to attraction without the context of gender / preference, and that's because I think that humans have this deep genetic need for connection to each other, especially in times of trauma. I think based on the population being so thinned (I wish they'd tell us what % of people are left), and on the priorities that would necessarily shift almost entirely to individual survival over the course of years and years (remember we're 20 years after the show's opening; reasonable to assume that 5 or 7 years passed where it was literally the only thing you can think about). I really don't think, and maybe this is me being naive, that anyone would even think about gay or straight or white or black in these circumstances because social evolution would essentially eliminate those people first (because their support and survival networks would necessarily be smaller than those who didn't think this way). 

Sexual orientation doesn't stop existing just because the world ended, though, just like I imagine there are still left-handed people in the TLOU world. And that's one of the great things about this show, for me. The fact that one of the two protagonists of this story, and the one on whose shoulders hinges saving the entire world, is a young gay girl. It might be irrelevant to her world-saving mission, perhaps, but it's still a part of her, just like being gay is a part of me. Growing up, I never would have imagined that I would get to see a story like this on TV, see myself in the protagonist of a TV show (especially one that isn't LGBTQ-themed like, say, The L Word), and while that has certainly gotten better in recent times, there's still a way to go, so to me Ellie being gay is incredibly important, and I appreciate the show making it clear that that's exactly what it is (just like when Tess asks her if they have to worry about a boyfriend coming for her way back in episode 2 and Ellie replies with a pointed "NOPE." At the time it seemed like nothing, but going back to it knowing what we know now makes her reply that much more deliberate, and I love that).

On another note, I'm cool with the way things turned out between Ellie and Riley towards the end being left to the imagination. I have seen my fair share of one half of a f/f couple being killed off after experiencing a brief moment of bliss to last me a lifetime. Instead, I appreciated that the last image we have of Ellie and Riley together is them holding each other, resigned to their fate and absolutely terrified of what's to come, but staying together because to them there is no other option.

@Danny Franks if I could like your post 457898 times, I would.

[conquistador]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

People complaining about not enough Joel... how much shivering and groaning on an old mattress do you want to see?

I think the people on TikTok very much would like a full episode of Pedro Pascal groaning on an old mattress.

[Uncle JUICE]

8 hours ago, Niuxita said:

Sexual orientation doesn't stop existing just because the world ended, though, just like I imagine there are still left-handed people in the TLOU world. And that's one of the great things about this show, for me. The fact that one of the two protagonists of this story, and the one on whose shoulders hinges saving the entire world, is a young gay girl. It might be irrelevant to her world-saving mission, perhaps, but it's still a part of her, just like being gay is a part of me. Growing up, I never would have imagined that I would get to see a story like this on TV, see myself in the protagonist of a TV show (especially one that isn't LGBTQ-themed like, say, The L Word), and while that has certainly gotten better in recent times, there's still a way to go, so to me Ellie being gay is incredibly important, and I appreciate the show making it clear that that's exactly what it is (just like when Tess asks her if they have to worry about a boyfriend coming for her way back in episode 2 and Ellie replies with a pointed "NOPE." At the time it seemed like nothing, but going back to it knowing what we know now makes her reply that much more deliberate, and I love that).

 

Perhaps I was clumsy in my phrasing, wouldn't be the first time, but I probably owe you an apology if I came off as minimizing sexual orientation in general or, more to the point, minimizing the importance of representation of same here. That was not at all my intent, and perhaps owes to me being somewhat naive on the subject: I guess I HOPE that it's completely insignificant in Ellie and Riley's fictional world, who they fall in love with. I don't understand TODAY, in this world, why anyone cares who someone else loves, and I guess I really REALLY wouldn't understand it in their world, five or ten years after the fall of civilization. To your point, of course it's important that these relationships are represented in our art, my point was in their world, I don't even think people would even think about it because of the priorities they'd have to have to survive. All that said, on second watch, I couldn't find a different read on it, their nerves struck me as standard teenagers pre-first kiss. So please accept my apology if it sounded like I was minimizing anyone's experience, it was not my intent at all. 

 

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

Which is a long way of saying, I think Ellie and Riley are probably growing up in a world that's pretty homophobic—maybe not substantially degraded from the situation in 2003, but probably not substantially improved either.

I only quoted this small part but your post about the timing of gay marriage laws would have never occurred to me, as someone who is outside of those directly affected by it. This one is definitely caused by a blind spot, but again I didn't intend it to sound as, well, uninformed as it apparently did. I apologize for that as well. I can't promise to do better but I'll try :).  

[BasilSeal]

On 2/27/2023 at 3:29 AM, HC87 said:

I guess '80s music is now the de facto soundtrack for sci-fi series now.

I think the 80's music in TLoU is a signifier of danger, as per Bill and Frank's radio code.

[paramitch]

For me, as a member of the LGBTQ community, this episode was vital in showing us who Ellie is. She has had to hide herself in plain sight -- even at FEDRA, she was so isolated and lonely, trying to lose herself in her music. She lights up when Riley shows up and suddenly we are seeing a JOYFUL Ellie, an Ellie who is fully herself.

And then we see Ellie kiss Riley, and pull back in a moment of total fear: "I'm sorry." I'm sorry. Don't hate me. It's okay if you don't feel like I do. There's something wrong with me. I'm sorry!

Riley's reaction of love and acceptance is incredibly huge for Ellie, and beautifully acted by Bella, as well.

This episode was vital in adding complexity and richness to her portrait. Up until now, she is a smart, sassy, brave kid with a sailor's vocabulary, but we also haven't glimpsed much about Ellie at her center.

Until now. When we watched Ellie gazing at Riley through the entire story like she was the sun in her universe. I was incredibly touched by the way we got to see for the first time an Ellie able to be open with her feelings -- with romantic love for Riley, and later on, with that daughterly love and fear for Joel (that she has mostly had to hide from him with humor and "ha ha I don't care" obfuscation, until she yelled at him for abandoning her last episode).

On 2/28/2023 at 7:13 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

What a fantastic point, one I'd not considered until reading this. Where does this pay off, this decision? Unfortunately, it pays off TWO THREE EPISODES AGO if you ask me. This bit gives heft to two scenes that seem to be throwaways before this context. 

• When Ellie kills the trapped infected in Cumberland Farms, now, we can imagine her first experience up close with infected as a framing device. We don't know for sure (yet?) what happened with Riley, but we know she's infected when the episode ends. Ellie's cold curiosity here, when she slices open the skin and sees the fungus, sees no reaction, she's likely thinking very much about her last moments with Riley, in such close contact with her. If she's spirited away prior to Riley's full infection, she might be wondering what exactly happened to her friend, what exactly the fungus did with her, which leads us to the next and more important pay off. 
• In Hold My Hand, she asks Joel if he'd ever killed an infected, and crucially, if it bothered him, if he thought there were still "people" inside the infected. What could this tell us about Riley's end, and Ellie's reaction to it? How she dealt with it, how she was taught to deal with it in FEDRA school (certainly would have been part of a curriculum, no one is doing fucking calculus anymore :)). Did she leave Riley and regret it, that's why she won't leave Joel? Or did she stay and convince herself that Joel was, like Riley, worth an effort? It's like this weird non-linear storytelling, and I don't know or even think it's really important to tell us. I just know I like the structure, it actually mirrors something I'm working on. 

I agree with the second half, but I take one tiny issue with the first half here. I'm of the opinion that in the environment that people Ellie's age are growing up in, sexual orientation is such a non-issue that they don't even consider it. In other words, they react strictly to attraction without the context of gender / preference, and that's because I think that humans have this deep genetic need for connection to each other, especially in times of trauma. I think based on the population being so thinned (I wish they'd tell us what % of people are left), and on the priorities that would necessarily shift almost entirely to individual survival over the course of years and years (remember we're 20 years after the show's opening; reasonable to assume that 5 or 7 years passed where it was literally the only thing you can think about). I really don't think, and maybe this is me being naive, that anyone would even think about gay or straight or white or black in these circumstances because social evolution would essentially eliminate those people first (because their support and survival networks would necessarily be smaller than those who didn't think this way). 

You're straight, right? I know you didn't mean this callously, but this spoken like someone who never had to fear coming out. Like Ellie had to fear here with Riley, for instance. She absolutely did not act like the kiss was no big deal, or that it took place in a universe where homosexuality is a non-issue. (For that matter, neither did Bill.) To me, it is VERY obvious that there is still plenty of prejudice in the world of TLOU.

And as far as today's world, I am out to most of my close friends, and I'm out online in a bunch of places (like here), but not to all of my family (several of them are quite backwoods Southern folks), just because they wouldn't understand, and I would have to deal with some hurtful prejudice that I'm not willing to open myself up to.

As far as Ellie's experiences with Infected, what I feel like the timeline is, is that:

• Riley and Ellie stay in the Mall thinking they'll die/turn together
• Riley turns 8-10 hours later, Ellie has to kill her for protection
• Marlene shows up within 24 hours, sees the situation and recognizes that Ellie's bite is old enough/healed enough that she should have turned (and she didn't) so she brings Ellie in
• When Ellie killed the trapped Infected, I felt like what we were seeing there was Ellie looking for the person inside (and seeing someone somewhat aware yet trapped by the fungus), and when she cuts it, she's trying to see how much "person" is left. When she then kills it, I think we are seeing rage -- she is acting out against the fungus that killed Riley.

On 2/28/2023 at 10:01 AM, jcbrown said:

I loved this episode. Tears streaming at the end of it loved it. Ellie's face after she apologizes to Riley for the kiss and Riley says "why?" The moment of joy on her face--not an expression we've seen in the series, I think--was perfect.

I thought it was too. I watched it with a good friend and we were both a little teary. 

On 2/28/2023 at 11:17 AM, BasilSeal said:

You'd need some pretty extraordinary evidence to change your  reflex reaction on this one and i'm not sure finding riley has turned and Ellie hasn't yet is sufficient evidence as Marlene, in this case, would not know that the two had been bitten at the same time. a far more plausible explanation to them would be that Ellie had been bitten later on.

But at that point, anyone familiar with wounds and healing would be able to see that Ellie had a wound that was not fresh, but was 12 or even 24 hours (or 48 hours) old, etc. Which would normally be strange or even near-impossible without turning. So I can buy that Marlene took a chance to see what would happen, especially as we do see that they shackled Ellie ASAP, tested her constantly for neurological responses, and she just kept on refusing to turn. So to me it's believable.

20 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Loved it. I knew what the episode was going to be - that it would be based heavily on the game's Left Behind DLC - and it did not disappoint. Bella Ramsey was fantastic again, going from her panicky fear over Joel to sullen, teenage moping to looking absolutely smitten and lovelorn as she looked at Riley on the carousel. And then her anguish and rage at the end, when she realised her life was over.

I liked that Riley tried to be older and wiser than Ellie, but wasn't really and still got giddy and silly over all the same things. 

I loved the decayed, rotten mall (still with an arcade packed with machines, as it would have been in 2003) and the "wonders" that were actually incredibly mundane in the real world.

Loved the sweet, tentative romance that was blossoming... briefly. But the dangers of this world just don't allow for reckless teens to be reckless. You hear, 'oh, how could they be so stupid?' as though fourteen year olds never do incredibly stupid, dangerous things in the real world.

It's strange, I've seen so many people saying they'd love a Joel flashback episode but when Ellie gets one, it's branded boring and disappointing. Reminds me of the people who only liked the game because it was about a tough, grizzled old dude smashing zombies... oh yeah, there's some annoying girl that tags along as well.

I loved your entire post, FYI. And my BFF and I were chuckling as Ellie and Riley ran heedlessly through the mall, because yes, they were being doofy clueless reckless teenagers, but we both also remembered doing really silly, dangerous things at that age.

I remember being 14 and living in Puerto Rico, and deciding it would be fun to climb the rocky cliff behind our house from the beach (and I was a TOTAL KLUTZ). I got halfway up and realized that I couldn't go back down, and if I fell, I would really hurt myself. I managed to get to the top, but it remains one of the scariest moments of my life, and I totally did that to myself because I was like, "Looks fun! How bad can it be!" (facepalm).

20 hours ago, Starchild said:

OMG you are my spiritual twin!

Aw, shucks, thank you so much. And it's nice to meet you, Twin! 🥰

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Perhaps I was clumsy in my phrasing, wouldn't be the first time, but I probably owe you an apology if I came off as minimizing sexual orientation in general or, more to the point, minimizing the importance of representation of same here. That was not at all my intent, and perhaps owes to me being somewhat naive on the subject: I guess I HOPE that it's completely insignificant in Ellie and Riley's fictional world, who they fall in love with. I don't understand TODAY, in this world, why anyone cares who someone else loves, and I guess I really REALLY wouldn't understand it in their world, five or ten years after the fall of civilization. To your point, of course it's important that these relationships are represented in our art, my point was in their world, I don't even think people would even think about it because of the priorities they'd have to have to survive. All that said, on second watch, I couldn't find a different read on it, their nerves struck me as standard teenagers pre-first kiss. So please accept my apology if it sounded like I was minimizing anyone's experience, it was not my intent at all. 

...your post about the timing of gay marriage laws would have never occurred to me, as someone who is outside of those directly affected by it. This one is definitely caused by a blind spot, but again I didn't intend it to sound as, well, uninformed as it apparently did. I apologize for that as well. I can't promise to do better but I'll try :).  

Just a note that I thought this was a lovely addition, and I really didn't think you were intending to be callous in any way. I hope my reply above adds further texture or understanding to the issue.

It is still very difficult and dangerous for many of us to come out, even today -- ironically, as evidenced by some pretty staggering homophobic and prejudiced reactions to Bill & Frank's episode (Episode 3), and now to Ellie's sweet romance with Riley. There is still a tremendous amount of hate in the world. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by paramitch
forgot parenthesis!

[Uncle JUICE]

11 minutes ago, paramitch said:

 

Just a note that I thought this was a lovely addition, and I really didn't think you were intending to be callous in any way. I hope my reply above adds further texture or understanding to the issue.

It is still very difficult and dangerous for many of us to come out, even today -- ironically, as evidenced by some pretty staggering homophobic and prejudiced reactions to Bill & Frank's episode (Episode 3), and now to Ellie's sweet romance with Riley. There is still a tremendous amount of hate in the world. 

Yes, I'm straight and didn't have to deal with the stress and trauma of coming out, of hiding, and as I said, I guess I kind of read into the Ellie and Riley situation from an uninformed and naive perspective. I have to say I specifically watched it looking for some sort of "extra" discomfort between 14 year olds about to share their first kiss, and again just couldn't find it. Teenagers that age are awkward on a good day, and I guess I just wanted to see a slice of the world the way I wish it were, but I also think that ten years after the fall of civilization, which would essentially be the failure of all institutional structures that make an LGBTQ+ lifestyle as stressful as it must be in some places today, given how important food, shelter, safety and connection would be to all remaining humans, I just can't imagine someone in those circumstances really being like "I can't share with you because you're gay."

I absolutely can understand after having it explained that it won't read that way to a gay person, at all. 

My bad. 

Also the reason I didn't feel the same way about Bill and Frank is because both men would have necessarily grown up in THIS world with this world's prejudices, and their encounter was earlier in the downfall of mankind. They would have both had a lot more baggage. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Uncle JUICE
MORE insensitive language inadvertently! SOrry!

[Starchild]

38 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Yes, I'm straight and didn't have to deal with the stress and trauma of coming out, of hiding, and as I said, I guess I kind of read into the Ellie and Riley situation from an uninformed and naive perspective. I have to say I specifically watched it looking for some sort of "extra" discomfort between 14 year olds about to share their first kiss, and again just couldn't find it. Teenagers that age are awkward on a good day, and I guess I just wanted to see a slice of the world the way I wish it were, but I also think that ten years after the fall of civilization, which would essentially be the failure of all institutional structures that make an LGBTQ+ lifestyle as stressful as it must be in some places today, given how important food, shelter, safety and connection would be to all remaining humans, I just can't imagine someone in those circumstances really being like "I can't share with you because you're gay."

I absolutely can understand after having it explained that it won't read that way to a gay person, at all. 

My bad. 

Also the reason I didn't feel the same way about Bill and Frank is because both men would have necessarily grown up in THIS world with this world's prejudices, and their encounter was earlier in the downfall of mankind. They would have both had a lot more baggage. 

I think it might be reasonable to assume that if the world were to collapse like this, conservative religious influence might grow stronger as well. I would imagine deaths in cities where people are close together would wipe out liberals faster than in more rural, traditionally conservative areas where people are less concentrated.

[Uncle JUICE]

17 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I think it might be reasonable to assume that if the world were to collapse like this, conservative religious influence might grow stronger as well. I would imagine deaths in cities where people are close together would wipe out liberals faster than in more rural, traditionally conservative areas where people are less concentrated.

My guess is the story's headed somewhat in this direction, but my take is that such influence might bloom in the earliest of days, the first year or two, but I think the "why is this happening" question would erode it very quickly, within five years, until such time as religion was either entirely different (inasmuch as what those institutions get all worked up about in this regard) or gone entirely. Organized religion is in many cases and places a money-driven enterprise, and there isn't any more money to have. As to the concentration concern, it's a valid one, but I don't think such distinctoins would mean a lot in a world where your neighbors are fombies and virulently infectious. I guess I think everyone's main priority would immediately, conscious or not, switch to "SURVIVE ABOVE ALL ELSE." I happen to believe the reason humans draw these boxes to put each other in are a direct result of us mastering the resource management on the planet, taking 'survival' largely out of concern, and that means that as social creatures we want to create "us" and "them" by as a result. Gay vs. straight, conservative vs. liberal, white vs. POC, I think as soon as there's a REAL "them," something that's not human that threatens humanity, all that other stuff is just bullshit. As has been pointed out to me, that's probably naive, but it's a TV show, I want it to be that way :). 

I also don't want this show to start taking pot shots at the religious under the guise of cults. That's low hanging fruit and I don't think it's fair. I'm sure relgiion has mutated in this world, I just think the influence would be about 98% less potent. 

[shelley1234]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

 

I also don't want this show to start taking pot shots at the religious under the guise of cults. That's low hanging fruit and I don't think it's fair. I'm sure relgiion has mutated in this world, I just think the influence would be about 98% less potent. 

I think I might be veering into off topic here by responding, so I apologize in advance.  

I'd make the case that the world that we are seeing, religion and its influence would potentially be much more potent.   Religion as an institution historically has served a variety of purposes, but one of them is to encourage and enforce societal rules and norms.   In most societies there is a direct correlation to laws on the books and religious rules/ regs.   

I'm not saying that this show is gonna turn into The Handmaid's Tale, but I do think religion could easily play a part in radical laws, regulations and community control.  Cults thrive in environments like this when you have to follow a leader in order to not die.  That storyline wouldn't be a pot shot at all to me. 

[Starchild]

12 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I think I might be veering into off topic here by responding, so I apologize in advance.  

I'd make the case that the world that we are seeing, religion and its influence would potentially be much more potent.   Religion as an institution historically has served a variety of purposes, but one of them is to encourage and enforce societal rules and norms.   In most societies there is a direct correlation to laws on the books and religious rules/ regs.   

I'm not saying that this show is gonna turn into The Handmaid's Tale, but I do think religion could easily play a part in radical laws, regulations and community control.  Cults thrive in environments like this when you have to follow a leader in order to not die.  That storyline wouldn't be a pot shot at all to me. 

I have to agree. Whatever it is, be it Christian, Islam, or something else, the fanatical variant is called fundamentalism for a reason: the concepts are fundamental to the believer, and the societal rules derived from these are typically regimented in quite a ruthless way. Deviation is not tolerated.

I expect there are some anthropology studies that have looked into this. I wonder if they confirm some of our assumptions.

ETA for @Uncle JUICE's point, I think perhaps for these kinds of fundamentalists, adhering to the rules, not being a deviant, is very much a part of survival.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Starchild

[PurpleTentacle]

On 2/28/2023 at 1:19 AM, bethy said:

(The last time I saw Romeo and Juliet, my sole thought was, "Oh, for heaven's sake, you're 14 years old.").

That's the whole point of Romeo and Juliet, a lot of people don't seem to get. It's about two stupid teenagers being stupid.

On 2/28/2023 at 4:53 PM, tennisgurl said:

I almost expected the girls to mistake a very still zombie as a Halloween costume before it jumped up and attacked them, but that sounds a bit Scooby Doo for this show. 

That's something the walking dead would do.

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

My guess is the story's headed somewhat in this direction, but my take is that such influence might bloom in the earliest of days, the first year or two, but I think the "why is this happening" question would erode it very quickly, within five years, until such time as religion was either entirely different (inasmuch as what those institutions get all worked up about in this regard) or gone entirely. Organized religion is in many cases and places a money-driven enterprise, and there isn't any more money to have.

Why do you think there wouldn't be any money to be had? There has to be some kind of curency and the curch would be right up in there. The world of this show is still far more technologically adavanced and connected than it was in the middle ages and I don't have to tell you how the catholic church was like back then, do I?

5 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I happen to believe the reason humans draw these boxes to put each other in are a direct result of us mastering the resource management on the planet, taking 'survival' largely out of concern, and that means that as social creatures we want to create "us" and "them" by as a result.

What do you base those believes on? They don't seem to be compatible with history. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Constantinople]

I too am wondering why Marlene first hid Ellie within FEDRA ROTC.

What did Ellie mean to Marlene at that point? Marlene didn't know about Ellie's immunity until after the mall, when Ellie was already part of FEDRA.

Random act of kindness?

Friend or relative of one of Ellie's parents?

The Departed: Mushroom Apocalypse with Marlene as Jack Nicholson and Ellie as Matt Damon? Although Marlene might prefer to see herself as Martin Sheen, not that anyone in The Last of Us would have ever seen The Departed.

[Uncle JUICE]

10 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Why do you think there wouldn't be any money to be had? There has to be some kind of curency and the curch would be right up in there. T

As if I haven't gotten myself into enough trouble here, but I can't resist :).

The only currency I've seen is ration tickets. This is essentially a barter system: you're doing work and you're paid in food and medicine. In order for there to be 'money', there has to be a centralized system of banking. No one has a cash register, no one has a bank account, no one is 'saving' or 'depositing' anything. That's why I don't think there's any money. If there's no money, then there's no benefit (using the term strictly from a financial context) to having an organization that amasses money for whatever purpose there was to do so. I'm not saying there wouldn't be religion, I'm saying there wouldn't be Religion, if that makes sense. capital R religion is the entity concerned with amassing wealth, nominally so it can be redistributed to areas of need, or to invest in things like property. Allllllllll of that is totally meaningless in this world. Pretty sure no one has referenced a dollar in seven episodes, and the first money we've seen is the quarters in the arcade. Did I miss it somewhere? Even the battery was going to be "purchased" with ration cards and other goods.

On the question about why I believe that about humanity, I'd argue that you're right in RECORDED history, but there are examples of formerly adversarial groups banding together in the face of existential threat. More broadly and more in the context I see here, I think I'm right (duh! :)). In our recorded history, there's never been a truly existential threat like this, BUT, I'd point out that many scienctists believe that homo neandertalis and homo erectus and the denisovans all walked the earth at the same time as humans until about 10,000 years ago. They're all gone and there's no mass extinction event evidence, and only one species of hominid remains, ours. It's reasonable to conclude that we bred and warred our way through those other species over the course of about 200 - 300K years. My conclusion is that the drive that made homo sapiens prevail, differentiated us in some small degree from these competitive species, was our 'in group' versus 'out group' identifiers. It's behavior we see in animals still today: hyenas are happy to fight amongst each other for dominance over their pack, but if a pack of lions happens to show up, suddenly everyone's priorities align: survive. My conclusion is just a scale up of this instinctive behavior. Now, you might have me if you said that people in this world, in 2023, have conquered this 'survive' to a far lesser degree than we have in real 2023, but my argument is that the people who don't know a pre-cordyceps world would have a different instinct than those who pre-date cordyceps and therefore come to the situation with a different instinctual bias. 

 

[Starchild]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm not saying there wouldn't be religion, I'm saying there wouldn't be Religion, if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense, and I think you're right. Unfortunately, that creates a vacuum into which many cult leaders would grow. A lot of people would be questioning after something like this happens, and plenty of narcissists (both  the sincere and the scammers) would be willing to fill that gap. I expect plenty of little Westboro-like pocket cults have developed around the world (outside areas like the QZs) saying the apocalypse is a punishment from God, Allah, whomever. And history has shown that the same groups are typically blamed, over and over, for what's wrong with society.

Let's face it, religion or not, a significant portion of humanity has always, and still does to this day persecute, to some degree, people who deviate from the societal norm.

 

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Pretty sure no one has referenced a dollar in seven episodes, and the first money we've seen is the quarters in the arcade. Did I miss it somewhere? Even the battery was going to be "purchased" with ration cards and other goods.

I think you're right about this. It's only been 20 years and from what we can tell, people are still largely in some sort of elevated survival mode, better and more organized now than it was when things started, but still pretty miserable. I don't think there's been time yet to put together a community that resembles pre-apocalypse society.

TWD's Commonwealth was ridiculous, what's happening in this show is much more realistic, I think.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Starchild
Clarity

[Raachel2008]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:16 AM, kay1864 said:

How could they not know that a headshot was required to kill the zombie? Both of them should’ve been trained on that, first thing. 
 

I know they were panicking, but Ellie repeatedly stabbed him in the abdomen, instead of the head.

I think Riley tried to shoot the head, but missed and then managed the torso and the leg. To be fair, it is not that easy to shoot a moving target that is moving its head too. And then I think they just panicked and tried to survived. These are a 14 and 16 years old teens who had never seen an infected as far as we know, at least not this close. They were being trained, sure, but theory is different than reality.

I rewatched the episode and it is an amazing piece of storytellling IMO. I know people complain about it not going back and forth to present time with Joel, but I disagree, I think one of its strenghts is that is told in on piece - just like Bill and Frank. I disagree 110%, too,  that this was a teen love story; that was huge character study, sort of coming of age story that encompassed loneliness, friendship, love, and more, including a better understanding on how that world works.

Ellie has telling her story all along, so it is quite obvious that she had to kill Riley when Riley turned and she didn't. I think we'll see Marlene before the end of the season and she will either tell that to Joel or mention it to Ellie, while telling Ellie about her mother. Does promos count as spoilers? In one of the 'what's coming next' promos

Spoiler

we see a woman with a newborn, it looks like after birth, and the actress sort of looks like Bella Ramsay, it made me think we'll see it.

I loved this and I don't quite get the "the story didn't move forward!" etc complaints. If we were just getting the carnage of the week a la The Walking Dead people would be begging for character development - all the while having to watch TWD milking Riley's death/turning and Ellie having to kill her till the the last drop.

I still think, though, that Ellie's back story should have come before, IMO right after KC and Henry and Sam and before Joel met Tommy.

ETA, Religion: I think it could have gone both ways; people have adored the sun, the gods, God or whatever since forever, and I'm sure some still belief and worship. A world like that is perfect for extremes - be it a fascist government or religious zealots. On the other hand, I can see  people thinking 'God has left us'.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Raachel2008

[shelley1234]

Ration tickets is just another name for money. Money is something you use to pay people for their work and then they use to obtain goods and services.   The powers in charge have taken control of the goods which people need to purchase with said ration tickets.   That power dynamic is alive and well.  

[Kel Varnsen]

So based on this episode are we supposed to assume that the military/FEDRA have given up on trying to eradicate infected? Because the mall was inside the QZ so how did that guy get there? It seems like a small group of soldiers with automatic weapons, body armour, radios and infrared goggles could clean out a place like that without too much difficulty. Even in the 2nd ep when all those infected were lying in the sun outside I think Faneuil Hall, it would seem like a military attack helicopter could take care of a lot of them.  And they seem to be raising the next generation of FEDRA agents so do they just expect them to keep the survivors in line?

[Uncle JUICE]

7 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

Ration tickets is just another name for money. Money is something you use to pay people for their work and then they use to obtain goods and services.   The powers in charge have taken control of the goods which people need to purchase with said ration tickets.   That power dynamic is alive and well.  

I think they're another name for "currency," of which money is a subset. When I think of money, I think of something I can put in a bank, that I can access as needed. There's no such institution for ration cards, you have to physically have them in order to use them, as we can see when the FEDRA guys are doling them out. While the governmental power dynamic is alive and well, my point was more that organizations such as the Catholic Church, whose central function is amassing and distributing money, would cease to exist in a world where there is no such thing as a bank account. Not catholicism, but the big Catholic Church. 

 

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Even in the 2nd ep when all those infected were lying in the sun outside I think Faneuil Hall, it would seem like a military attack helicopter could take care of a lot of them. 

They've established that fuel supply is extremely unstable, and I'm not sure what the manufacturing on it in their current timeline is, but I know it's a lot easier to manufacture auto fuel than it is to manufacture helicopter fuel. Not to mention you can't just drive a helicopter the way you drive a car, it takes a specialized skill set. And it's reasonable to assume the military was decimated much the same way society was. That flour infection idea is a really good one, it infiltrates everywhere. 

[shelley1234]

36 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think they're another name for "currency," of which money is a subset. When I think of money, I think of something I can put in a bank, that I can access as needed. There's no such institution for ration cards, you have to physically have them in order to use them, as we can see when the FEDRA guys are doling them out. While the governmental power dynamic is alive and well, my point was more that organizations such as the Catholic Church, whose central function is amassing and distributing money, would cease to exist in a world where there is no such thing as a bank account. Not catholicism, but the big Catholic Church

I think I'll just agree to disagree.   We already see keeping and hoarding resources by FEDRA, the KC group and the Fireflies.   That's the same as hoarding money or currently if you want to be particular.  

That still exists in this world and doesn't go away just because they don't have banks.  People are forced to do jobs they don't want to do just to stand in line and get their tickets.  That's a heck of a lot of power and where there is power...there is corruption.  Those organizations would never cease to exist.  They are like cockroaches, you just can't kill them.   They would adapt and thrive, I have no doubt.  

[MrWhyt]

On 2/28/2023 at 8:16 PM, kay1864 said:

How could they not know that a headshot was required to kill the zombie? Both of them should’ve been trained on that, first thing. 
 

I know they were panicking, but Ellie repeatedly stabbed him in the abdomen, instead of the head.

they're not zombies. The infected are not Walking Dead style animated corpses. A headshot is not required to kill them. Stabbing the infected in the chest could puncture a lung or a major vein/artery, causing the infected to die.

[Kel Varnsen]

19 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

They've established that fuel supply is extremely unstable, and I'm not sure what the manufacturing on it in their current timeline is, but I know it's a lot easier to manufacture auto fuel than it is to manufacture helicopter fuel. Not to mention you can't just drive a helicopter the way you drive a car, it takes a specialized skill set. And it's reasonable to assume the military was decimated much the same way society was. That flour infection idea is a really good one, it infiltrates everywhere. 

If the fuel supply is also not secure for the military then yes maybe a helicopter might be an issue. But I still wonder if the military is taking an active role in trying to reduce the number of infected or if they have just given up and are just trying to hold the QZ's. 

Also would helicopter fuel be harder to refine than gasoline? I mean for military helicopters it would be jet fuel, which is similar to diesel (you can run a diesel engine off of jet fuel). And my understanding is that diesel is easily to refine than gasoline.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[mledawn]

You can run diesel engines on old fryer oil and/or animal fat. A biodiesel still isn't that hard to make, so I would say it's easier to refine or more accessible than gasoline or avgas. I don't know if you can use biodiesel in something that takes jet fuel, though. 

[Blackie]

I'm not the biggest fan of this show, but that was SUPER boring. Not sure what it was trying to say to me - the pandemic is over, why don't you go check out your local mall to see what you have been missing the last 2 years????

 

ETA: I did laugh at the escalator scene because that was my grade 5 class on our field trip to the big city museum. I think we spent more time on the escalator then looking around the museum. (that was around 1975)

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Blackie
eta

[BasilSeal]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:12 PM, mledawn said:

You can run diesel engines on old fryer oil and/or animal fat. A biodiesel still isn't that hard to make, so I would say it's easier to refine or more accessible than gasoline or avgas. I don't know if you can use biodiesel in something that takes jet fuel, though. 

It's also possible to make fuel, both petrol and diesel IIRC, from 'cracking' waste plastic. I think for any reasonably organised post apocalyptic community, making fuel would not be an insurmountable problem. What would be much more of an issue is the supply of basic spares and consumable items that are needed to run vehicles, clutch plates, fuel filters, brake pads, etc. batteries would be a particular issue, 5 to 7 years after the apocalypse, car batteries would be failing, you might find a warehouse full a spares that would still be usable 10 or 20 years after the event, but by then even unused batteries would be duds.

The military of course have vast stores of spares and equipment  set aside for a contingency like this, so an organisation like FEDRA with roots in the military would have access to military contingency stores with vast arrays of spare parts and other equipment, with a vastly reduced population they'd also have far more equipment than they'd need so could cannibalise some of it to keep other stuff going.

[Quickbeam]

This episode was not for me. It just took me out of the story. I like Bella Ramsey a lot and think she’s completely watchable but I just didn’t need this backstory. Plus that mall could be any number of derelicts in any state at the present so ….. no dystopian shock there. 

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, Blackie said:

I'm not the biggest fan of this show, but that was SUPER boring. Not sure what it was trying to say to me - the pandemic is over, why don't you go check out your local mall to see what you have been missing the last 2 years??

Because Ellie and Riley's trip to the mall ended so well?

[Dobian]

I thought Bella really came along in her portrayal of Ellie in this episode.  I do root for her because I like the actress.

For those who don't know, this episode is the whole Left Behind dlc from the game.  I thought it hit all the beats and recreated it faithfully.  The mall confused me and my wife though.  There was a lot of retro stuff like 80s music, the video game arcade, the Esprit store (still around online but most shops were closed after the 90s).  Cool though.

I get people not caring for the episode because it's a flashback.  I'm not a big fan of flashback episodes either.  You want the story to move forward but have to do a timeout to visit the past.  But this does tell the origin of Ellie's bite and learning that she's immune.

[paramitch]

One additional detail that I have been thinking about a lot since this episode is that the inclusion of the A-ha song "Take on Me" is really brilliant on multiple levels:

• It's the first song we hear on Ellie's playlist -- an 80's song (which means it's signaling "danger ahead" for Ellie and Riley right at the start of their adventure)
   
• The lyrics are a paradox -- an invitation to get romantic (but only for a short time), underlining Ellie (and Riley's) wish to find love even if the world is ending. It also encompasses Riley's final conversation with Ellie as they are in each other's arms -- that they are infected but they have time left to still live every moment together (sniffle).
   
• The lyrics literally describe Riley's situation on multiple levels: "I'll be gone in a day or two..." 
  
  Take on me (take on me)
  Take me on (take on me)
  I'll be gone
  In a day or two
  
  The outing is Riley's literal goodbye gift to Ellie. It's also her secret romantic wish. But beyond that, little do they know, she will truly be gone forever within the day)
   
• The lyrics underline Ellie's secret yearning too (and foreshadow her finally declaring her feelings):

  We're talking away
  I don't know what
  I'm to say,
  I'll say it anyway
  Today's another day to find you
  Shying away
  I'll be coming for your love, okay?

• The rest of the lyrics also have strong undercurrents to the story and to Ellie going forward after loss (edited for relevance):
  
  So needless to say
  I'm odds and ends
  But I'll be stumbling away
  Slowly learning that life is okay
  Say after me
  It's no better to be safe than sorry

  All things that you say, yeah
  Is it life or
  Just to play my worries away?
  You're all the things I've got to remember

I may be overthinking this but I don't think I am. Mazin and Druckmann have shown that they think about these kinds of details so I suspect it was deliberate.

(Also, I just still love the song. It's awesome.)

[Silver-hyren]

On 2/27/2023 at 11:59 AM, shelley1234 said:

There aren't malls like that in Boston...probably the Cambridgeside Galleria is the closest or maybe the Braintree Mall.  Boston has the Pru and the Corner Mall, but never are actually malls. 

Riley mentioning leaving Boston took me out of the episode a bit because my next thought was "What mall is this supposed to be??"

[Nashville]

On 2/28/2023 at 6:40 AM, BasilSeal said:

I wonder what sort of organisation FEDRA is  in the present? Is it just a loose group of connected settlements with authoritarian warlord type leaders doing their own thing under an umbrella title that is more legacy? or is there some overarching  central government still in place that coordinates the different QZs which the individual commanders answer to?

Well… FEDRA is purportedly the story line analogue to FEMA specifically, and most of the rest of the federal government in general - so let’s start with that:

Except for some of the very smallest, the structure of most Federal Agencies is pretty straightforward: an HQ component within/in the vicinity of the DC Beltway, and a number of regional offices scattered across the  Agency’s service area. Depending upon the geographic and/or population size being serviced by an Agency, lower orders of subdivision are commonly incorporated - and would be considered a virtual management necessity for an Agency corresponding to FEMA, both in terms of (a) the size of its user population and (b) expanse of geographic territory covered.

But looking at such organizational structure(s) within the concept of a cordyceps outbreak (or a ZA, for that matter): if we assume for the sake of argument a high-density population area such as DC would be hit early and hard, what happens to the regional (and lower) offices when their HQ-level controlling entities are severely diminished or outright destroyed?

For starters - IMHO this whole discussion would be moot unless some degree of central control still exists, even if in a significantly diminished operational capacity.  Unless the general public believes the regional entities are backed by a higher authority with some degree of power which can be exercised to effect its edicts, then the regional offices would be perceived as little more than scattered fiefdoms with little in the way of supporting resources - which might be the actual case, but the regionals wouldn’t necessarily want their service populations knowing that.  Being able to deflect responsibility for extreme exercises of population control towards a distant faceless authority vs. the regional “locals” could have its advantages.

Such referential misdirection (and the associated geographical proximity dependence) would explain the disparities we’ve already seen with the different regional FEDRA authorities:

1. Boston: close proximity = strong referential dependence.  Years after the initial outbreak,the Boston office’s control over the populace still remains strong.
2. Kansas City: lessened proximity = lessened control.  KC FEDRA maintained control for an extended period of time - but all indications are that KC FEDRA had to resort to heavy-handed authoritarian tactics to maintain control much earlier and with significantly more force than Boston, resulting in revolt by the popular masses.
3. Denver and Salt Lake City: extreme distance = loss of control; FEDRA presence in both Denver and SLC ranges from minimal to nonexistent.

In short (I know - too late):

• Within the show’s context, actual existence of a strong central FEDRA presence matters less to continued FEDRA control of regional populations than does public perception of such existence.
• Timelines may vary from one region to another, with geographic proximity to a purported central authority possibly playing a role - but the moment a given service population perceives significant weakening (if not outright collapse) of that central authority is also the moment the regional FEDRA office’s control of that population begins its own eventual slide into decline and collapse.