Jon Snow: He Knows Nothing

[Lady S.]

I guess so? I think that's my favorite part. 

[Ambrosefolly]

And Arya going on a 30 minute killing spree montage, backed up by some epic music...a'la Tarantino

I am assuming it will take place at Castle Black when she finds out?

[Attaboy000]

I am assuming it will take place at Castle Black when she finds out?

Castle Black, King's Landing, Dorne, The Twins, Winterfell and The Dreadfort...everywhere. She has to kill Baelish first, to take his teleporter (since he obviously has one) and go nuts afterwards.

[Ambrosefolly]

What happen to the Starks at Dorne?

[Lady S.]

I am assuming it will take place at Castle Black when she finds out?

 

[Happy Harpy]

Best. Meme. Ever.

[Hecate7]

In the book Ned reveals who Jons Mother is (at least he alludes to it and names the lady).  On the show its a secret I dont think anyone has revealed.  Anyone know why?

forgive me if this has been addressed already, I just started reading the books :)

 

On the show Ned said "Wylla," but given the first scene with Robert in the crypts, and the way he looks aside when he says it, we all know he's lying. Ned also says to Jon Snow "you may not be a Stark, but you have my blood." NOT "you're my son," but "you have my blood." And that they would talk about his mother when Ned got back, which of course on this show means one of the people in the conversation will die before they see each other again. Nobody ever keeps that sort of promise. Jon Snow was not allowed to sit at the table where Robert and Cersei might see him and get a good long look at his face.

 

Now, there is no reason in the world to keep the name of a wetnurse a secret from Catelyn Stark. There is also no reason not to freely describe Wylla to Robert, but when Robert says "you never told me what she looked like," Ned says "Nor will I." There is really only one reason to bring your bastard home, conceal his mother's identity even from the bastard himself, and offer to reveal it once the lad is safely at the Wall and has said his vows. There is only one reason Ned Stark would lie to the world the way he did for Sansa, and that's if a child's life is at stake.

 

Jon Snow is not Ned Stark's son. But he has his blood.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Hecate7

[Last Time Lord]

Have you seen the video from the YouTube channel Film Theory? It goes into this theory with a lot more detail. Blew my brother's mind when I told him to check it out.

 

And that was a direct quote from him, too.

[FemmyV]

More anvils than a Norfolk shipyard ...

 

 

“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

    “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

    “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.”

 

Then you have Aemon's deathbed ramblings.

 

I guess Jon Snow really can be dead, and become Aegon Targaryen.

Edited June 25, 2015 by FemmyV

[Lady S.]

Curlylocks Watch 2015 Update

[scarynikki12]

I should feel shame that I am so obsessed with Kit's hair but...nope.  I'm obsessed and proud.

[Crossbow]

Is there a betting pool for who Jon's mother is? Because I want to put my markers on Ashara Dayne.

 

My thought on whether he's dead or not: It doesn't matter because being "dead" in this world slows you down about as much as a head cold.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Crossbow

[kathyj]

Just read that Jon Snow is back for a long time.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kit-harington-jon-snow-humo-interview_55f86151e4b09ecde1d9e88a

[Crossbow]

I expect him to get through the whole series. He's been one of the major plot lines. He's also the reader's view of the Others, the free folk, and the Wall, and it would be silly to kill him off at this point. And

I personally think he's going to be one of the heads of the dragon, along with Danerys.

[bunnyblue]

Bringing this thread out of mothballs because I wanted to talk about our mopey bastard who knows nothing. I've been watching Jon Snow scenes that someone kindly compiled on Youtube. 

 

Anyway, I noticed that most of the Wildings like calling Jon "pretty" and like to go on about his looks. Even Robb said Jon never found a girl he liked better than his own hair. All of which I find hilarious. I was wondering, though, if in the books Jon's pretty boy looks are ever mentioned like they are in the show? Or is the Pretty Crow thing because Kit is a good looking guy?

 

And I just rewatched the fight at Craster's Keep. I still wish Jon had heard Bran calling out to him but I know that would've derailed Bran's storyline. ::sigh:: Anyway, this time I was bothered by the fact that Karl turns his back to Jon for way too long in order to deal with Craster's wife who went all stabby on him. I mean, he even dropped his knives!  Jon was on the ground, sure, but he was still the immediate threat not a cowering woman, so I thought it was a total plot contrivance to have Karl Fookin' Tanner of Gin Alley turn away so that Jon could do his sword-thru-the-back-of-the-head-and-out-his-mouth kill. Still a great fight but I kinda don't like how Karl went out.

 

For the most part, I couldn't stand Jon's time with the Wildlings in S2 and S3 but now I can't wait for S6 to see him allied with & leading those same people. That is, of course, if he survives. ;-)

[Lady S.]

Bringing this thread out of mothballs because I wanted to talk about our mopey bastard who knows nothing. I've been watching Jon Snow scenes that someone kindly compiled on Youtube. 

 

Anyway, I noticed that most of the Wildings like calling Jon "pretty" and like to go on about his looks. Even Robb said Jon never found a girl he liked better than his own hair. All of which I find hilarious. I was wondering, though, if in the books Jon's pretty boy looks are ever mentioned like they are in the show? Or is the Pretty Crow thing because Kit is a good looking guy?

It's because of Kitten. Being a pretty boy is not even an established character trait for Book-Jon, let alone one commented on multiple times. That's more a defining character trait for Jaime and Loras than any of the Stark men. 

[Chris24601]

It's because of Kitten. Being a pretty boy is not even an established character trait for Book-Jon, let alone one commented on multiple times. That's more a defining character trait for Jaime and Loras than any of the Stark men. 

Honestly, all the pretty-boy stuff leads me to imagine Rhaegar being played by a clean-shaven Kit with hair bleached (which gets even weirder when the description of Arya being the spitting image of Lyanna comes into the mix).

[bunnyblue]

It's because of Kitten. Being a pretty boy is not even an established character trait for Book-Jon, let alone one commented on multiple times. That's more a defining character trait for Jaime and Loras than any of the Stark men. 

 

Interesting. Thanks, Lady S. And I love that you call him Kitten!

[Clawdette]

It's interesting that I had to go to page four before I found this thread and the last post was in November.  This character has had quite an arc this season but I supposed everything regarding Jon was discussed within each episode. 

Watching the video with Kit, Liam, and Sophie really makes me wonder about Jon's lack of awareness of Sansa's needs. I had thought he perhaps now had a higher emotional quotient. 

[Umbelina]

Honestly, I can't get past the huge reveal that all the speculation was true.

A Story of Fire and Ice.

Jon or whatever his real name is?  Is a Stark (ice) and a Targ (fire.)  It will really have to go a ways to not have the end game be all about Jon.

[Lady S.]

(the actress who played dying Lyanna)

[Tippi]

I saw that tweet...I thought it was really cute.

[bunnyblue]

Seeing as how HBO confirmed (not that I needed any convincing) Rhaegar is Jon's father, I was wondering if Jon being the son of 2 highborns - and not the product of 1 noble and a tavern wench - means he's still a bastard. In the world of ASOIAF/GOT do they call the love child of 2 fancy schmancy upper class people 'bastards' or something else?

I just want to take moment to gush about my boy. LOL. I've seen the complaints about Jon becoming a "Gary Stu", a special snowflake, etc., and I DON'T CARE. I love that he started the season lying dead in the snow and ended it in Winterfell as King in the North. I love that he's become one of the most eligible bachelors in the 7 Kingdoms (coincidentally as the most eligible bachelorette in the world sails West). I love that death didn't turn him into a warped version of himself - he is still about uniting and saving the North, but now with familial responsibilities thrown in. I even grew to love the man bun.

For every victory that Jon's had (and he's had many) he always gets the shit kicked out of him, both physically and emotionally. After the resurrection, Jon was extra mopey and had to be pushed to fight once more, but I think he ended the season in a good place. And I'm not going to begrudge him a few smiles as he was named KitN over his sister. I think S7 will be, for the most part, the calm before the storm for Jon. I don't foresee any major battles for him, but I do think the big emotional wallop of his true parentage awaits him next season, and I can not wait for that.

[Enigma X]

3 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Seeing as how HBO confirmed (not that I needed any convincing) Rhaegar is Jon's father, I was wondering if Jon being the son of 2 highborns - and not the product of 1 noble and a tavern wench - means he's still a bastard. In the world of ASOIAF/GOT do they call the love child of 2 fancy schmancy upper class people 'bastards' or something else?

I just want to take moment to gush about my boy. LOL. I've seen the complaints about Jon becoming a "Gary Stu", a special snowflake, etc., and I DON'T CARE. I love that he started the season lying dead in the snow and ended it in Winterfell as King in the North. I love that he's become one of the most eligible bachelors in the 7 Kingdoms (coincidentally as the most eligible bachelorette in the world sails West). I love that death didn't turn him into a warped version of himself - he is still about uniting and saving the North, but now with familial responsibilities thrown in. I even grew to love the man bun.

For every victory that Jon's had (and he's had many) he always gets the shit kicked out of him, both physically and emotionally. After the resurrection, Jon was extra mopey and had to be pushed to fight once more, but I think he ended the season in a good place. And I'm not going to begrudge him a few smiles as he was named KitN over his sister. I think S7 will be, for the most part, the calm before the storm for Jon. I don't foresee any major battles for him, but I do think the big emotional wallop of his true parentage awaits him next season, and I can not wait for that.

I was going to write about HBO's confirmation was too lazy. I am gushing about our boy as well. He is my favorite book and show character, and I feel he deserves it.

[Mathius]

I think the show dun goofed royally by not including Robb's will legitimizing Jon as his heir back in Season 3.  That would have made Jon becoming KITN make SO much more sense than Lyanna Mormont changing her tune from "you're not a Stark, you're a bastard" to "I don't care if he's a bastard, he's still our king!"  If Jon becomes KITN in the books, I'm pretty damn sure it'll be due to Robb's will.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Mathius

[bluvelvet]

Just giving love to the man bun, it's grown on me also :)

Somehow, Jon has now become one of my favorite characters and believe me when I say I was tempted to fast forward his scenes in earlier seasons. However this being GOT, I didn't want to miss one piece of dialogue.

I may have to change my avatar..

[glowbug]

3 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Seeing as how HBO confirmed (not that I needed any convincing) Rhaegar is Jon's father, I was wondering if Jon being the son of 2 highborns - and not the product of 1 noble and a tavern wench - means he's still a bastard. In the world of ASOIAF/GOT do they call the love child of 2 fancy schmancy upper class people 'bastards' or something else?

He would still be considered a bastard.

 

In the books Robert had a son named Edric Storm with Delena Florent who was Selyse's cousin. Edric was still considered  a bastard but treated differently than Robert's other bastards with common women in that Robert acknowledged him and provided for him financially. He was raised at Storm's End and received a proper education and such.

Edited June 30, 2016 by glowbug

[arjumand]

5 hours ago, Mathius said:

I think the show dun goofed royally by not including Robb's will legitimizing Jon as his heir back in Season 3.  That would have made Jon becoming KITN make SO much more sense than Lyanna Mormont changing her tune from "you're not a Stark, you're a bastard" to "I don't care if he's a bastard, he's still our king!"  If Jon becomes KITN in the books, I'm pretty damn sure it'll be due to Robb's will.

This isn't my idea, I found it in a yt video but I feel it isn't about following the name, but the man.

when Jon and company tried to get support, all the North knew was that they went down this path before and lost. After the battle, OTOH, everyone who survived told the same story - about this maniac warrior who charged into battle and survived and won.

IMO, the Red Wedding is still incredibly powerful here - the fact that it was referenced, more than once, is the hint. They were betrayed and slaughtered. It doesn't matter that so many of Jons men died during the battle - they died fighting, they weren't slaughtered while they were defenseless.

look at Lord Glover - he's asking for forgiveness for not coming to a battle where he and his men could have been wiped out! 

Of course it's Lady Mormont who has to start that speech - she, with her 62 men, was the only one who came. 

[Constantinople]

11 hours ago, Mathius said:

I think the show dun goofed royally by not including Robb's will legitimizing Jon as his heir back in Season 3.  That would have made Jon becoming KITN make SO much more sense than Lyanna Mormont changing her tune from "you're not a Stark, you're a bastard" to "I don't care if he's a bastard, he's still our king!"  If Jon becomes KITN in the books, I'm pretty damn sure it'll be due to Robb's will.

Upon reflection, I'm not so sure, at least within the context of the show.

In a nutshell, Robb failed, pretty spectacularly.  That's why the TV Northern houses either sided with the Boltons or stayed out of it, with the exception of House Mormont, House Hornwood and House Mazin.  For that matter, if it weren't for Davos, the Mormonts would have told Jon & Sansa to get lost.

If TVRobb used his will to legitimize TVJon, in effect TVRobb would be endorsing TVJon.  Politically speaking, that's an endorsement that might hurt more than it would help TVJon, or those acting on his behalf, to get him proclaimed King of the North.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Constantinople
Because Edmure stil blows

[rubyred]

I was going to ask this in the Bookwalker thread, but happily found this one instead. I haven't read the books but I'm raring to be spoiled on this topic.

For all you Jon experts out there: what is Jon's dream? What I mean is, from the show it seems to me that he shoulders responsibilities beyond his years and experience, wants to be honourable, honors his vows etc, which is all good. But I don't sense that he has ever had the ambition for the roles he's been forced to play, from Lord Commander to now Lord of Winterfell and KiTN. Hell, even the Night's Watch, I didn't think he was super enthusiastic about that either but he was determined to do it and do it well.

If Jon had had his druthers, what would his life have been like? Just to be a legitimized Stark and second son? Did he want to marry? Did he want to farm? I have no idea what he would rather have done than join the Night's Watch. He obviously wanted Ned's love and regard, but IMO he had that and knew that he had that. 

As an aside, for me the best part about the ToJ reveal is that it means that Ned never told Catelyn about Jon's parentage. Oh, the glee I feel that he kept that secret from her for Jon's entire life. It almost cancels out my irritation that he allowed Catelyn to treat Jon so poorly.

[Luckylyn]

John's main ambition, I think, is to protect the people around him.  He doesn't care about getting the throne but is focused on defeating the White Walkers.  I think he's the sort of person who would live a simple life but crisis propels him forward.  He's a natural leader but doesn't seek to be elevated for his own sake.  I think family is what he wants mainly.  He'll be king because of necessity and not because that's his personal goal.  It means he can't be bought but it also means he doesn't always understand the ambitions of others.   He's very pragmatic.  Political subterfuge is something he will struggle with since he's such a direct person. 

[Lady S.]

14 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

Just giving love to the man bun, it's grown on me also :)

I really want him to meet up with the BwB now. He and Thoros could be man-bun buddies.

 

22 minutes ago, rubyred said:

I was going to ask this in the Bookwalker thread, but happily found this one instead. I haven't read the books but I'm raring to be spoiled on this topic.

For all you Jon experts out there: what is Jon's dream? What I mean is, from the show it seems to me that he shoulders responsibilities beyond his years and experience, wants to be honourable, honors his vows etc, which is all good. But I don't sense that he has ever had the ambition for the roles he's been forced to play, from Lord Commander to now Lord of Winterfell and KiTN. Hell, even the Night's Watch, I didn't think he was super enthusiastic about that either but he was determined to do it and do it well.

I'm just gonna dig out some quotes from the e-books for you and let you make your own interpretation. Apologies if this is too much text.

Spoiler

 

(when the Old Bear gives him Longclaw) When Jon had been Bran’s age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father’s life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child’s folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father’s sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother’s birthright?

(when Ygritte is marveling at the southron "castles") His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. “It is a dream for spring, though,” Lord Eddard had said. “Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on.”

If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. 

(After Stannis has offered to legitimize him) When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them… I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me. All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do…

… was forswear his vows again.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I'm Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I'm the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning he called it first. “I'm Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that.

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? ....  I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. 

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. (in the books Stan's deal also included burning the godswood and converting to Red Rahloo, so Jon accepting would have meant betraying both his NW oath and the old gods.)

When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those.

 

[Umbelina]

Thanks you guys!  That was a great question and a great answer.

I'd completely forgotten, or haven't thought about what Jon really wants in a long time.

I hope he gets it, and also frankly, love, mad, unconditional, passionate love along with children of his own. 

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I hope he gets it, and also frankly, love, mad, unconditional, passionate love along with children of his own.

Dear Gods yes!! I know this is GOT and the chances are slim but my boy deserves a happily ever after, dammit! I have my preference as to whom I want him to end up with, but really I just want Jon Snow to be loved, appreciated, and worshiped (!) to the end of his days by a wife, children, and grandchildren. 

[Lady S.]

I'd like to see Jon have a new love scene just so we could have more Kitten nudity tbh.

[arjumand]

On 30/06/2016 at 5:09 AM, bluvelvet said:

Just giving love to the man bun, it's grown on me also :)

Somehow, Jon has now become one of my favorite characters and believe me when I say I was tempted to fast forward his scenes in earlier seasons. However this being GOT, I didn't want to miss one piece of dialogue.

I may have to change my avatar..

I just realized the why of the man bun (still NOT SURE IF WANT, though).

Mel gave him a haircut (damn you, Red Woman!), and in fact when he executes Olly and co., you can see that it's shorter. But then, it must have grown back during filming, except that in show time, only a few days had passed, so he has to pull it back to hide that fact.

I mean, he still looks good, but I miss the curls.

On a less shallow level - I really, really want Jon to get everything he wants (yes to the love scene!) I love the way he and Sansa found each other after life tried to break them, and that they're back home again.

[sunflower]

Quote

I love the way he and Sansa found each other after life tried to break them, and that they're back home again.

So, don't hurt him Sansa!  

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'd like to see Jon have a new love scene just so we could have more Kitten nudity tbh.

Just so long as he and his intended bathe beforehand this time.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'd like to see Jon have a new love scene just so we could have more Kitten nudity tbh.

Shame! Shame!

[bunnyblue]

With Bran most likely heading to Winterfell and Littlefinger's continued influence over Sansa, will Jon's reign as KitN be a short one? 

In the "Inside the Episode" video, Benioff said that they intentionally made the King in the North scene in 6x10 similar to the one in 1x10 and that we should be a little worried about Jon because of how things turned out for Robb. I don't think that means Jon will be killed again, but maybe he'll be betrayed by someone he trusts (Sansa) or he'll lose the support of the Northern lords once Bran shows up. 

I worry that things are a little too neat for Jon at the moment; he's got his family, his home, advisers and allies, and most importantly he's got the power to prepare for the coming war. Knowing this show, I fear they're going to knock Jon down a few pegs just as it looks like he's finally in the right position to take on the Night King. And taking away the power & resources that comes with being KitN would certainly do it.

[Colorful Mess]

YES Jon needs more love, in the show and on the boards! He's been my favorite since the beginning. I love characters who are deep thinkers...that's so Jon. He's the existentialist of the series. I still can't get over how amazing his story arc has been so far, especially if you look at how f'ing hard he's worked. Tirelessly focused on a goal that's larger than himself, fighting for the realm and his family. He really is the workhorse of the series. Nobody gets shit done like Jon. Perhaps he seems to accomplish more than he actually does because there's so much hopelessness in his life at the Wall. I also love how his outsider/insider status has made him incredibly perceptive but at the same time pragmatic. 

I was cheering for him so hard in the finale, yet also worried for him. That King in the North title is scary, ya'll.

I'm also eager to see how he takes the news about his mom and pops. In addition to the shock that Ned isn't his dad, there might be another shock that he's not a bastard (if in fact they were married). I'm sure GRRM would gleefully choose the option that destroys Jon the most; so which is worse, learning that you're a bastard by a different father or learning that you could have lived your whole life as a legitimate heir? Jon will probably have to deal with both.

As for what Jon wants - this question is sadly something they haven't conveyed very well on the show. In the show he seems to alternate between *sulky brooding* and *brave warrior* but his real thoughts are of course hard to convey on screen. Thanks to Lady S for those book passages. Reading them it seems like he wants - 

Spoiler

like all great suppressed desires - what he is most denied: family and title. He feels guilt about wanting this, viewing it as selfish. He also wants to feel powerful through heroic deeds but doesn't necessarily want to rule over people. He wants everything to click into place like it seems to do for Robb with minimal effort, who had a secure, stable route to greatness without having to work very hard for it.

Instead, Jon has lived his whole life in limbo and worked his ass off to figure out where he stands. He's been privileged and oppressed at multiple turning points and self-reflective enough to acknowledge when others are in the same situation. So...for me, this is a breath of fresh air in the GoT universe, even if he does have some Stu traits - cool sword, direwolf, troubled backstory, resurrection, yadda yadda who cares. A character like Jon is NEEDED, for us as viewers. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Colorful Mess

[Umbelina]

Yeah, Jon's Harry Potter, but will he get the happy ending?

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, Jon's Harry Potter, but will he get the happy ending?

No, because I don't think Jon will survive Long Night 2.0.

[slf]

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I'm also eager to see how he takes the news about his mom and pops. In addition to the shock that Ned isn't his dad, there might be another shock that he's not a bastard (if in fact they were married). I'm sure GRRM would gleefully choose the option that destroys Jon the most; so which is worse, learning that you're a bastard by a different father or learning that you could have lived your whole life as a legitimate heir? Jon will probably have to deal with both.

So much of Jon's identity is wrapped up in being a Stark and specifically in being Ned's son, so I think finding out he's not is going to be soul-crushing. Going to the Wall, for instance, while I think it was partially about how being a bastard doesn't matter there and being close to his Uncle Benjen...I think it was also about participating in the Stark legacy. There's almost always a Stark at the Wall.

Regarding Lyanna and Rhaegar, while young teen brides weren't unheard of among the nobility (they weren't common among the lower classes contrary to popular opinion) not everyone was okay with the practice. Ned wasn't a fan (the betrothal of Sansa was by King's command and, technically, Robb should have at least been seriously considering future brides). Nothing in the show or books supports Jon thinking 14 is a great age for marriage and childbirth either and Lyanna was only 14 when Rhaegar either seduced her or abducted her. To say nothing of how badly Rhaegar planned the whole thing w/r/t the fact that Rhaegar had a wife and children whose safety he didn't secure (and who were slaughtered), and Lyanna didn't have a maester to take care of her during and after giving birth. I can't see Jon being thrilled about the reveal ("I'm the grandson of the man who slaughtered my grandfather and uncle!").

I'm going with: equally crushing reveals that make him question everything.

[Umbelina]

I dunno, he's still Ned's nephew, and what is he in the books anyway,

Spoiler

15?

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I think Jon won't really be concerned with whether Rhaegar married Lyanna. He'll feel a connection to her as the mother he'd dreamed of all his life and as a Stark, but never truly to Rhaegar imo. Ned was his father in every sense of the word that matters, Rhaegar just provided the magic dragon sperm. That's why I think his heritage is most important as far as dragon bonding. Winterfell and the North have deep meaning for Jon, it makes sense for him to serve s reluctant LC of the Night's Watch and reluctant KitN, but the South and the Iron Throne would be even more alien to him than it was to Ned.

[DangerousTangerine]

On 6/30/2016 at 1:23 PM, rubyred said:

I was going to ask this in the Bookwalker thread, but happily found this one instead. I haven't read the books but I'm raring to be spoiled on this topic.

For all you Jon experts out there: what is Jon's dream? What I mean is, from the show it seems to me that he shoulders responsibilities beyond his years and experience, wants to be honourable, honors his vows etc, which is all good. But I don't sense that he has ever had the ambition for the roles he's been forced to play, from Lord Commander to now Lord of Winterfell and KiTN. Hell, even the Night's Watch, I didn't think he was super enthusiastic about that either but he was determined to do it and do it well.

If Jon had had his druthers, what would his life have been like? Just to be a legitimized Stark and second son? Did he want to marry? Did he want to farm? I have no idea what he would rather have done than join the Night's Watch. He obviously wanted Ned's love and regard, but IMO he had that and knew that he had that. 

As an aside, for me the best part about the ToJ reveal is that it means that Ned never told Catelyn about Jon's parentage. Oh, the glee I feel that he kept that secret from her for Jon's entire life. It almost cancels out my irritation that he allowed Catelyn to treat Jon so poorly.

In the books, when Jon is mulling over Stannis' offer of Winterfell and legitimization, Jon admits to himself that what he wants most of all is to preside over Winterfell with a spouse and kids of his own that look like and he would name after his siblings. I think he sublimated that desire because he thought it was something he could never have. But that is what he wants most of all....a loving family of his own that he could nurture and a place where he could finally indisputably belong. I could totally see him raising a bunch of kickass little girls that would be just like Lyanna Mormont that he would teach to fight.

Given how loving he always was towards his younger siblings, I think he'd be an amazing father. I know none of this will ever happen though I feel he deserves it so much. When we're first introduced to him in the story, one of the very first things he does is sacrifice his feelings so his siblings could have the direwolves. I knew then I would love him forever. That is essentially what he's about at his core....family and sacrifice. But he has tragic hero written all over him, so he will never know nice things in his short life. He was born to suffer, save people and sacrifice himself for others. *sigh*

[DangerousTangerine]

On 6/30/2016 at 10:02 PM, bunnyblue said:

Dear Gods yes!! I know this is GOT and the chances are slim but my boy deserves a happily ever after, dammit! I have my preference as to whom I want him to end up with, but really I just want Jon Snow to be loved, appreciated, and worshiped (!) to the end of his days by a wife, children, and grandchildren. 

I really feel he deserves it and it breaks my heart to know it's never gonna happen.

[Chris24601]

See, I think Jon WILL get what he's wanted in the end precisely because he's already struggled and bled and sacrificed. Narratively he's already died so there's nothing to be gained in the story by him dying again.

If anyone's cruising for a sacrificial death narratively speaking it's Dany. Its all but foretold that she will reunite with her beloved husband and son.

People often mistake bittersweet for pyrrhic or just bitter. Bittersweet is a happy ending that took great cost to achieve and it makes sense in terms of story for the one who sacrifices the most to also get one of the happier endings (it appeals to the general audience's sense of justice).

Despite his reputation, GRRM is actually a pretty traditional storyteller. His choice of protagonists is atypical, but the actual story arcs of the chosen protagonists are not. Its telling that, of the viewpoint characters in the first book, only the parents have actually perished.

As such, Jon is actually the character I'm least worried about making it to the end (Dany and Arya are the ones I worry most about making it).

[Lemuria]

I thought you might like this video I came across (the song is from the game Skyrim, "The Dragonborn Comes"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9-BdUzG8fU  

If you haven't seen the Seth Meyers skit on his late, late night show where Jon Snow is invited to a dinner party, I recommend it; I thought it was really funny.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Lemuria