Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[InsertWordHere]

I could see them attempting to make both major ships happy with an ambiguous finale. For instance, they could introduce some sort of AU scenario late in the final season that has a happy Swan Queen living with Henry in a non-magical land (that OUaT is Henry's dream about his separated mothers getting back together has been a popular SQ theory for quite some time), but end that scenario by going back to the "real" version of events. Then in the finale, after they show Hook and Emma and probably Regina and Robin living happily ever after, they could do one final scene that leaves us wondering if that AU version was perhaps the "real" one after all.

 

Gahh, why am I giving them ideas!? This would of course end up satisfying no one, because every faction of the fandom, even non-Emma shippers, would be pissed off at the idea that the show wasn't "real." St. Elsewhere endings never work because they leave viewers feeling like they've wasted their time. Heck, LOST [LOST spoilers ahead] tried to appease the major triangle shippers by putting one couple together in real life and one together in the "afterlife," and I don't think that worked either. They could always just say Emma's cookie dough? I kid, I kid, anything but that last one. Or HIMYM. 

[retrograde]

I don't see them doing a SQ ending. The vast majority of casual viewers probably have zero idea what "Swan Queen" is, and would be thoroughly confused to see Emma and Regina suddenly in a romantic relationship when -- as far as most people are concerned -- there has never been any hint of romance between them before. 

[FabulousTater]

But these are the writers that had Emma say to Regina (after Regina spent the whole episode berating Emma) "I'm not going to stop trying [to be your friend]. Even if you still want to kill me." I mean, what?!? Yes, let's not allow Regina's repeated attempts to end Emma's life stop their potential friendship. What the frickety frak, wiggety wack!

 

And plus, Emma's brother...Her parents named him after the 26/226 year old guy who sent teen Emma to prison pregnant and abandoned her. Seriously, What. The. Frak!

 

There's nothing I wouldn't put past these writers now. Absolutely nothing.

Edited October 31, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Emma]

Hearing that the ep was so popular in other circles is just downright depressing.

Was it really though? I have a hard time finding anyone who enjoyed it outside the intended target.

I do agree it sucked a lot of my enjoyment out of the season too.

[Camera One]

The problem is that the intended target is so loud.  So A&E just get positive reinforcement.  I can't believe there was actually an episode marketed as a SQ episode.  

Edited October 31, 2014 by Camera One

[Stuffy]

I don't see them doing a SQ ending. The vast majority of casual viewers probably have zero idea what "Swan Queen" is, and would be thoroughly confused to see Emma and Regina suddenly in a romantic relationship when -- as far as most people are concerned -- there has never been any hint of romance between them before.

This is true I was telling a coworker about how Jennifer is treated by some fans. She had never heard of swan queen and thought it was the craziest thing she'd ever heard because Regina has tried to kill Emma and her family more than once. Also that step-grandmother thing.

Don't tell me they're not blood related because I have a step grandparent that I've never been close to, but he's still family even with my grandmother being dead over 20 years. He still raised my dad about the same amount of time Regina raised Snow. Just no. I get that it's different on once with the characters being around the same age, but they're still family to me. So I will quit the show if they ever go that route. Any other same sex relationship fine.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Stuffy

[Rumsy4]

The problem is that the intended target is so loud. So A&E just get positive reinforcement. I can't believe there was actually an episode marketed as a SQ episode.

Exactly!! I have lost faith in A&E now. It's quite within the realm of possibility that something like the AU scenario IWH suggested may play out in the final season. Maybe just one episode.

[Serena]

Honestly, they're not gonna do the AU route, not even for fanservice. This episode, as bad as it was, was one episode of interaction. 405 was particularly bad, but they always have the one episode of SQ interaction every season. 3B's "Witch Hunt" was vastly better, but it was mostly the same logic: give SQers one episode so they can be happy and shut up. After "Witch Hunt" there was barely any significant SQ interaction in the whole season. 

[Emma]

If Adam and Eddy want to listen to the loud mouths on twitter then that makes my decision easier. No amount of love for JMo/Emma will keep me around to watch the Swan Queen show.

[Rumsy4]

Honestly, they're not gonna do the AU route, not even for fanservice. This episode, as bad as it was, was one episode of interaction. 405 was particularly bad, but they always have the one episode of SQ interaction every season. 3B's "Witch Hunt" was vastly better, but it was mostly the same logic: give SQers one episode so they can be happy and shut up. After "Witch Hunt" there was barely any significant SQ interaction in the whole season. 

 

I hope you are right, Serena. But an Emma/Regina episode has never been promoted as a romantic Swan Queen episode before now. So... 

[Serena]

But they're not doing that IMO. I mean, that's what queerbaiting it. It's hinting at the possibility of a romantic relationship, but with enough plausible deniability that they can go "just kidding" or, anyway, let the fans interpret it like they want to. It's still bad, but the thing that makes it queerbaiting it that there is no actual queer relationship. Otherwise, it would just be promoting a gay couple and no one makes a fuss when, IDK, ABC promotes Calzona. Adam is fully aware of this (at least right now) and it's very telling that there is not ONE tweet about SQ in his feed at all. He doesn't control Once's official Twitter.

 

But speaking of writers, the writer of 405 (Scott something) retweeting someone saying that young Emma and "that Regina look alike" should kiss skeeves me out. Maybe it's a double standard, but a grown man wanting to see sexual contact between 14 year olds is gross as hell.

[Minneapple]

Yeah. It's not the writers doing the promotion. The social media people are doing it to get likes and retweets and favorites. I can't count the number of times I've seen something promoted in one way -- only for it to go another way altogether.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Minneapple

[Rumsy4]

But they're not doing that IMO. I mean, that's what queerbaiting it. It's hinting at the possibility of a romantic relationship, but with enough plausible deniability that they can go "just kidding" or, anyway, let the fans interpret it like they want to. It's still bad, but the thing that makes it queerbaiting it that there is no actual queer relationship. Otherwise, it would just be promoting a gay couple and no one makes a fuss when, IDK, ABC promotes Calzona. Adam is fully aware of this (at least right now) and it's very telling that there is not ONE tweet about SQ in his feed at all. He doesn't control Once's official Twitter.

 

Well... yeah. I do know what Qb means. But at this point, it's shaken my faith in A&E. I got definite Qb vibes in the episode, but people's take on that may vary. Who knows what they might decide to do 4 seasons down the line?

Edited October 31, 2014 by Rumsy4

[maryle]

That a interesting question if they go SQ now  for me it will be a jump the shark moment.

 

 Emma and Regina Relationship is twist and totally inegal. After what I read I decide to not Watch the SQ episode but it seems like a bourreau victim dynamic

[Featherhat]

I think ABC is protected against corporate homophobia. They consistently get good ratings from GLAAD and ABCFamily often receives and "excellent" for having LGBT people in almost every show and several LGBT showrunners. Disney as a brand (the movies not the parks) is more difficult but its hard to claim homophobic reasons for no SQ when for a long time they had the only lesbian couple on network TV and best number of LGBT characters in general.

 

It *is* more problematic WRT this show, because for all the insane fairytale "twists" they do like the pairings to be 99.99% straight, SleepingWarrior subtext that semi became text nonwithstanding. But even then I wouldn't say not having Regina and Emma hook up was homophobic in the slightest. If "Henry has two moms!!" is enough reason to ship SQ then "Henry has two moms one of whom is his birth mom's step grandmother, has tried to kill her and is evil so its complicated and they share custody" is enough of a complex relationship to keep things interesting without romance, as they go down that route.

 

 

 

When they demand representation, it is all a smoke screen for their need for Swan Queen.

 

This. I've been in several fandoms where "OMG you won't make Crackship X canon, you are homophobic!" card got brought out and the show already had a gay character or added a gay character as the seasons went by. The fans of the (fem)slash pairing ignored that character and continued to throw accusations at the writers.

 

I lasted less than a full season watching/fandoming Teen Woolf, but IIRC it was a similar case there, the favoured slash ship "Sterek" did indeed have the kind of subtexty possibilities that made it popular with fans who always look for slash to ship and soon QB and homophobia accusations got thrown around. However there was also a gay character on the show, true he was supporting and didn't get much of a love life from what I saw but he was there. Instead of advocating for better visibility for him a lot of Sterek shippers refused to support him because he was "tokenism" and boring and "Sterek" was true chemistry that can't be faked and the writers should get them together and ignore the canon gay guy just because. It's a personal opinion for them so ok, but it blew the "representation" argument out of the water for me forever when it comes to subtext ships.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Featherhat

[RadioGirl27]

I don't have any problem with a same sex pairing (I stopped watching Grey's Anatomy a long time ago, but Callie and Arizona were my favourite pairing there). But Swan Queen is so twisted and sick, and if Emma or Regina were a man, it would still be sick and twisted. Going there would be a big jump the shark moment.

[patchwork]

I would love it if OUAT made Shang a Polly Oliver and made her and Mulan an official couple but I very much doubt that something like that would be good enough for the majority of Representation! criers. What they want is for their couple to become canon.

 

Playing along with the fandom rarely works out in the long run and if the Show gave me a little less Woegina I might even feel sorry for them. 

Edited November 1, 2014 by patchwork

[unbrokensavior]

I swear, this fandom argues more than my family about politics on Thanksgiving.

[Amelia]

Adam's tweets re: Graham......what.

[Camera One]

Always doing damage control about something or other...

[RadioGirl27]

Lol. This Graham thing is getting better and better. Matt Mitovich has twitted that this interview where they confirmed that Emma knew about Graham and that they had shooted a scene with her confronting Regina doesn't exist. But, then, we have this video (around minute 4) where Mitovich confirms that the scene was shooted. The Gremma fans are so mad right know.

Edited November 1, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[CatMack]

I like how he's focusing only on the confusion whether a scene was every scripted or shot that had Emma confront Regina, rather than addressing why 4 seasons in no one else on the entire show knows she murdered a series regular.  On any other show that would be a big shoe ready to drop at any moment, but I swear to god they just forget it ever happened except when someone else brings it up.

Edited November 2, 2014 by CatMack

[YaddaYadda]

In what world was it even a good idea to bring Graham back for last year's finale?  Doesn't matter whether it was for 15 secs or 15 minutes.  Seriously, writers...I didn't really care for Graham, I thought he was pretty and boring, but geez what they did to the character was horrible and they clearly didn't think through that rape is bad no matter who is on the receiving end.  And then crushing his heart because Regina is such a petty, jealous bitch...

 

No words...every time I see the shoe lace around Emma's wrist or the bomber jacket, I see red because they resolved nothing regarding that character.  They want us to forget he existed, but there are constant reminders that he existed.

[Mari]

Seriously, writers...I didn't really care for Graham, I thought he was pretty and boring, but geez what they did to the character was horrible and they clearly didn't think through that rape is bad no matter who is on the receiving end.  And then crushing his heart because Regina is such a petty, jealous bitch...

Sorry about this.  About to step on soap box.

 

I think part of it is because we talk about sexual violence and exploitation against women enough that it's pretty much universally accepted in our popular culture that it's bad.  No one taken seriously doubts it, and men who rape women--or molest children--are treated absolutely horribly in prison, by the other inmates, so even people who generally accept a different morality than most of the rest of society see it as a heinous thing.

 

Sexual violence against men and boys, however, particularly when it is perpetrated by a woman, is still treated as a thing to be desired.  There has  been case after case of female predators who get little to no sentence simply because they are attractive, and the judge or jury is sympathetic--or believes that it's not rape, because the man had an erection (false) or that the teen boy wanted it, because he said it was consensual (when pop culture acts like he's a freak if he doesn't want to have sex and boys frequently don't even realize that it's damaging until years later).  While jokes about raping/molesting girls is usually roundly, soundly (correctly) condemned, it's pretty common still to hear jokes about "teachers weren't like that when I was in school.  Poor me."  when it's a boy and a female teacher.   When talking about rape, people almost always use "she" for the victim and "he" for the perpetrator.

 

I think it is possible it  honestly didn't occur to them that what Regina was doing was rape, because she is a beautiful woman, there was no violence involved, and many people have trouble internalizing that men can be the victim of women for that type of crime.  I think the blowback on that completely took them off guard, because of the cultural bias that ignores that men can be the victims of women.

 

(Again.  Sorry.  The Graham/Regina thing always touches a sore spot because . . . reasons.)

Edited November 2, 2014 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

It's not like I really cared too much about Graham as a character, but I thought his death would be one of the things brought up after the Curse was broken. That, among a thousand other things, is never going to be addressed in the Show, unless it is to make Regina look sympathetic. I too tweeted Adam about the interview, but I know he won't reply. And even if it he does, it won't make any difference to the story they are telling--which is that Regina is the biggest victim ever, and Snow White and Emma keep ruining her life. 

[Mari]

It's not like I really cared too much about Graham as a character, but I thought his death would be one of the things brought up after the Curse was broken.

Exactly.  I can't say that Graham the character was someone I'm particularly interested in.  I don't care that they killed him off;  killing him off was interesting story telling.

 

I just care about the reaction to what happened to him, because . . . (cutting myself off, now.  If interested, see rant above.)

Edited November 2, 2014 by Mari

[unbrokensavior]

 

No words...every time I see the shoe lace around Emma's wrist or the bomber jacket, I see red because they resolved nothing regarding that character.  They want us to forget he existed, but there are constant reminders that he existed.

Yadda Yadda, I agree.  And the only reason we get the shoe lace and jacket is because of JMo.  She said in an interview (I can't remember which one) that she asked if they could have a memento or something that Emma has of him, and they let her pick it.  They had no idea that Emma might want to keep something from him.  

[Souris]

Yeah, I think for many fans, myself included, it's not so much about Graham as about the reactions and repercussions of Regina murdering him -- or, as the case is, the lack thereof. It's just another one of the villains' crimes that have no repercussions whatsoever. Meanwhile, Emma saves a life and it's The Worst Thing Ever and Repercussion City.

[Minneapple]

Basically, Graham's death doesn't matter because according to the writers, no one except Regina knows the true circumstances. So that means Regina is absolved of responsibility in his death. Therefore she's REDEEMED.

Such a shame. That was a great scene when she squeezed his heart. That was the episode where I was like, "wow, show!" And Parilla was so great, her over the top evil best. But now that scene ultimately didn't mean anything to anybody, so. What's the point?

[Camera One]

Even if no one knows, does Regina feel guilty for doing it?  If so, shouldn't be a tad more sheepish?  Clearly she still feels she can sanctimoniously charge Emma and Snow with ruining lives.  As Minneapple said, there was absolutely no consequences to killing Graham.  In most shows, there would be a climatic moment, when, you know, everyone finds out?  Can you imagine telling someone who just watched that episode, and say, oh in Season 4, everyone is still clueless Regina killed Graham.  It's actually a moot point.  LOL, do you still want the Season 2 DVD?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I find it amusing that someone just posted in the "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" thread about how Graham's death was just wow for them. It's really funny to be like yeah, I remember feeling like that. Too bad it meant nothing and three years later it is still something that fans are pissed was never addressed. The showrunners made his death out to be a Big Thing. How can they be surprised when the fandom takes them to task for their lack of follow up? There comes a point where viewers are not willing to look the other way with regards to a character's misdeeds. It hits when they form a narrative where a good character does something that unintentionally hurts another, but refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy inherent in their whitewashed narrative. Emma doesn't know Regina killed Graham, so that's why she just took the abuse from Regina. And that makes it okay because why? The entire "friendship" is then based on a lie and has zero foundation if Emma is prostrating herself in abject apology to Regina based on false information.

 

I'm glad that the fandom has stood up and expressed itself on this matter because the showrunners do need to understand that they cannot just pretend huge events on the show actually don't need to have consequences. You cannot pretend it doesn't matter because no one in show knows about it. Emma debasing herself and drowning in guilt over an unintentionally hurtful action and the narrative presenting it as deserved is just sick when you consider that Regina has faced zero consequences for doing much worse. 

[Camera One]

I'm glad too.  Though it appears that to Adam, the focus is that it was a misunderstanding.  Let's hope he doesn't decide that in order for Emma to find out, they need to make Emma, Snow, Charming and all the heroes commit some great sin so when they do find out, Regina can say, you all are JUST as bad as me.  I mean, the show can supposedly claim that Regina and the The Evil Queen persona are different and separate, but it is much more difficult to excuse her crimes in Storybrooke.   How can they make it so that Emma, or Henry, would be okay with Regina killing Graham.  I suppose they can just trot out the old "You're not the person you were back then." 

[Aliasscape]

I never understand why anyone thinks there's no violence involved in Regina and Graham. She RIPPED His heart out. We saw him cringe in pain and her squeeze it to cause him to suffer before ordering him to her bed chamber. There was no blood but there was plenty of violence.

 

I was wondering what great uproar suddenly has Adam claiming Emma doesn't know. Well, what, is she stupid? She never figured out that if everything Henry was saying was true about the book then when Henry said Regina killed him, he must've been right? And well fine, if she "doesn't know" Adam, when do you intend for her to find out? All this proves is how completely braindead these writers are. No scene like that was ever even written?

 

"Major character died. Should we ever write a scene where the other characters realize who did it?"

"Nah."

[myril]

Reading through recent postings here, couldn't help but picture two college guys in front of computer some years ago, smirking and high-fiving, because they just got the idea for a great plan to troll people and their morality. Really not the picture I want to have of Horowitz and Kitsis, but it now popped into my mind. That I just read articles about the history of internet trolls might have had an influence on this spontaneous association.

 

And remembered, what Rumple said in the pilot "... the final battle will begin." He could have talked about fandom. LOL

(It's Sunday, time for meta thoughts)

[Rumsy4]

They make the "good" guys look like morons when they say things like this. On the other hand, even if Emma knew, she would probably think that Regina is so changed, and is a hero now, so none of that matters. The writers set up Graham's death as a huge deal in S1. Then, there was Regina mind-wiping Henry. Again, no one knows about it. Why is Regina allowed to get away with everything? This is not a universe where there is absolution of sins by a higher power either. Even if you are a mass murdering abusive rapist, you become a hero for doing the right thing for once. However, you are a good guy, even saving a person's life will get you painted as a life-ruiner. One of the Evil Regals was arguing with another fan that apparently Snow wasn't punished for killing Cora, so why should Regina over Graham? That tells you how many people have drunk the Kool Aid.

No matter what the fan uproar over Graham is, A&E aren't going to care. Their Show is doing reasonably well, and that's all that matters to them.

[Serena]

Here's the possibilities I can think about:

1. Matt Mitovich, an highly respected television journalist, one day decided to just made up something. Adam at the time either didn't see it or decided not to correct it.

2. Adam is lying his ass off right now. for whatever reason.

 

Which one sounds more likely?

[Rumsy4]

Adam seems to have thrown Matt under the bus. I don't understand why Matt is going along with it, when tons of people have tweeted them a link to the video.

[YaddaYadda]

I never understand why anyone thinks there's no violence involved in Regina and Graham. She RIPPED His heart out. We saw him cringe in pain and her squeeze it to cause him to suffer before ordering him to her bed chamber. There was no blood but there was plenty of violence.

 

Regina rips Graham's heart out, then years later crushes it because she's batshit crazy.  The writers want us to forget all about that.

So what happens the next season?  Oh, right!  Rumple rips Milah's heart out and crushes it.  When I watched that scene all I could think of was well she died exactly like Graham did.  But then, the show keeps falling into the heart ripping territory.  Every time someone gets their heart squeezed or ripped, all I can think of is those two unresolved deaths that no one seems to give a flying fig about.

[Serena]

I hope this is as entertaining to you as it is to me: Jen promoting this week's ep on Twitter. Like she did 404. Like she did NOT do for 405. 

[Emma]

It amuses me too. Lets just hope a certain group of fans don't put 2 + 2 together and send her hate because of it.

[myril]

Seeing the tweet replies to Jennifer Morrison's tweet: Some people have a weird understanding of personal space, I think. Fans calling a person they adore but aren't actual friends with and hardly known in private, likely have never met in person, "baby" "cupcake" and by other pet names, are creepy people who have to learn something about boundaries and respect. It's not endearing, it's crossing lines.

Edited November 2, 2014 by katusch

[FurryFury]

I'd love to believe JMo didn't mention 4x05 on Twitter because she didn't like it, but there's no evidence. She could have been feeling unwell, too busy or simply forget to do it. 

[unbrokensavior]

I wouldn't blame Jen for not wanting to get involved on twitter for 4X05.  She could say something super positive about SQ and still get hate for it.  Or, you know, she could've just been busy with family things or something because she does have a life outside of OUaT (which some fans can't understand for some reason).

[Souris]

FWIW, JMo was on Twitter at some point last Sunday. She tweeted a screen cap of Hulu with an Emma pic and replied to a fan who tweeted her a comparison pic of her and Colin at the soccer game with a pic of Flynn & Rapunzel from Tangled. I'm not aware enough of Twitter to know if the time stamp I see on her tweets was my Eastern time or her Western time. So either she was tweeting 2-1/2 hours before the ep or during the ep.

 

OK, that was a little too tin-hatty investigative. Now I'm picturing Kevin Costner in JFK: "Back and to the left! Back and to the left!"

[KAOS Agent]

Jen didn't do press for the episode with Emma's first backstory in two years. You cannot tell me that wasn't a deliberate choice. If Lana was uncomfortable with some of it, you can bet Jen was too, but she's smart enough to keep her head down and go to work.

Some fans really, really suck. She's expressed how incredibly hurtful she finds it when her feed is full of hate. It's not too out there to think she knew it might be a problem and her plan was to avoid it by not saying anything.

Edited November 2, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, I think for many fans, myself included, it's not so much about Graham as about the reactions and repercussions of Regina murdering him -- or, as the case is, the lack thereof. It's just another one of the villains' crimes that have no repercussions whatsoever. Meanwhile, Emma saves a life and it's The Worst Thing Ever and Repercussion City.

Even aside from the rape stuff, they have the weird juxtaposition of Regina currently going through something similar to what she deliberately put Emma through, and yet she's treated like a victim. Emma was in the early stages of a potential relationship with Graham when Regina murdered him in a fit of "if I can't control him, no one can have him" (to me, that's as problematic as the rape because it's something that really happens with domestic violence). But Regina got off scot-free, and even Henry, who knew she did it, doesn't seem to have a problem with her. Now Emma accidentally separated Regina from her early-stages relationship by saving Regina's boyfriend's wife's life (from Regina!), and Regina gets to be a victim, Henry is making her cheer-up baskets, Emma is begging for forgiveness and friendship, and no one -- including the writers -- seems to have made this connection, that Regina is getting a taste of her own medicine, but through someone else's good deed rather than an evil, deliberate one. It's just so very tone deaf, and it gets worse when the writers act annoyed that fans keep bringing it up, like we're totally supposed to forget that one of the main characters murdered another regular on-screen in order to spite another main character, since they want the two main characters to be friends now.

[YaddaYadda]

Regina thinks Emma has everything.  Anyone remember what she yelled at her in Neverland "you have everything!".  She's just been apart from her parents for 28 years, had to give up her son and so messed up she didn't think she was worth anyone's trouble.  But hey...you have everything, Emma!  Suck it up and take my abuse!

[ParadoxLost]

Seeing the tweet replies to Jennifer Morrison's tweet: Some people have a weird understanding of personal space, I think. Fans calling a person they adore but aren't actual friends with and hardly known in private, likely have never met in person, "baby" "cupcake" and by other pet names, are creepy people who have to learn something about boundaries and respect. It's not endearing, it's crossing lines.

 

No kidding.  I can barely bring myself to use just their first name because it feels to familiar.

[Camera One]

The other thing I find creepy about Twitter is when fans beg for their comments to be retweeted, or to wish them a happy birthday or a good day, sometimes with a hint of desperation.  It's even more unsettling when the actor/actress is a child actor.  Being in media events once in a while is one thing, but being exposed to this extra attention all the time would require strong parental guidance.  I don't think it's all that healthy, and this is a new thing that has arisen with social media these last few years.

[Rumsy4]

I agree, Camera One. There are also those people who tweet actors hundreds of times asking them to follow them. Cyber harassment will definitely get them to follow you, right?

 

I don't know how much hate Colin gets, but some of his fans act juvenile too. Colin used the word "Wahey" in an interview once, and people kept tweeting that word to him. That seemed to me like mocking someone's "exotic" accent/language, even if it may not have been intended as such. Many of these people simply don't know how to have healthy boundaries, IMO.