S00.E160: The Power of the Doctor

[DanaK]

Quote

In this feature-length special to mark her last adventure, Jodie Whittaker’s Thirteenth Doctor must fight for her very existence against her deadliest enemies: the Daleks, the Cybermen and her arch-nemesis, the Master.

Who is attacking a speeding bullet train on the edges of a distant galaxy? Why are seismologists going missing from 21st-century Earth? Who is defacing some of history’s most iconic paintings? Why is a Dalek trying to make contact with the Doctor? And just what hold does the mesmeric Rasputin have over Tsar Nicholas II in 1916 Russia?

The Doctor faces multiple threats - and a battle to the death.

Premieres on Sunday October 23, 2022. It will start at 7:30pm GMT in the UK on the BBC and stream on BBC iPlayer. Its running time is 1 hour 27 minutes. In the US, it will be broadcast on BBC America starting at 8pm ET and run to 10:05pm ET (remember they run endless commercials) and stream on AMC+ (which only shows a couple of quick promos)

Edited October 17, 2022 by DanaK
Corrected episode number

[Llywela]

Oh my.

Okay, first thoughts, unfiltered, off the top of my head.

Taken as a whole, I haven't much liked Chris Chibnall's vision for Doctor Who, and I don't particularly enjoy his storytelling style. All the seasons he's been in charge, I've never once felt he's got the balance quite right.

But I can forgive a lot for a good team up. I do love a good team up. And that was a good team up (if you don't think too hard about the details, that is).

I'm so thrilled by all the returning players we got to see tonight. I don't want to think too much about the plot, which had all the usual issues a Chibnall story has, some of which would probably make me quite cross if I dwelt on them. I'm just happy that we got to see so many faces from the past. Now that's how to celebrate the history of the show and the history of the Doctor, all the people that character has been and all the people that character has known and loved.

As for the ending...well, let's just see what RTD2 has planned!

Edited October 23, 2022 by Llywela

[John Potts]

Well, that was an exercise in nostalgia, if not especially good. As an old school fan, I did like the callbacks ("Brave heart, Tegan", Ace calling the Doctor "Prof", the Master's Tissue Compression Device, etc.) but it rather overwhelmed the plot (such as it was). Liked the Master telling the Doctor she'd be erased if she didn't leave and then explaining to Yaz that saying so guarantees she had to stay - for all that the Doctor keeps beating him, he does understand how the Doctor thinks. Though even if the Doctor regenerated into the Master's body, that wouldn't make her the Master any more than Romana became Princess Astra when she regenerated into Lalla Ward (maybe the device includes some Mind Whammy as well, we know the Time Lords could do that).

Liked the "Doctors' Council" giving our Doctor a pep talk and the parallel with the "Companion's Council" at the end (have to say I would never have recognised either Ian or Tegan, but that's how time affects us mere humans). Was not expecting David Tennant to show up at the end!

[Captain Stable]

Two things:

1: What was the Master's timeline in this episode? Was he Rasputin, then the Seismologist Master who was turned into The Doctor, and "died" when the cyber planet was destroyed?

2: How did Graham get involved in the volcano plot? He seemed to know what was going on, but when the Doctor saw him, she was shocked to see him there, so she didn't send him...

[PurpleTentacle]

Chibnall's final "fuck you" to canon. That's not how regenerations work and forced regenerations aren't any different. As they pointed out, we saw a forced regeneration before. A forced regneration is basically just the same as shooting a timelord with a gun and not giving them the option not to regenerate.

In "the night of the doctor" it was heavily implied that the timelords don't even have the technology to influence the regeneration. Only the sisterhood of Karn has. But even they could just influence personality, not rewrite the whole character and being.

I know doctor who has always had fluid canon, but if you are going to change canon, how about you make it not stupid? All of Chibnall's changes have been extremely stupid.

-

The Master getting captured served absolutely no purpose. But I guess I can chalk that up to his theatric side.

I actually liked him for the first half of this episode. I thought maybe Sacha Dhawan had finally found the right balance for this master. But then he went waaaaaay over the top again. It just does not work for him.

-

Kate: "How is it bigger on the inside?"

Ah come on. She is the head of UNIT. She should have researched all the theoretical possibilities and narrowed it down ages ago. Even Rory figured out how it functioned with just a bit of googling.

-

It was really nice seeing all the old school companions. But they really couldn't scrounge up one NewWho companion, who wasn't from the Chibnall-era, for the support group? I guess to be fair, only Martha Jones and Mickey Smith would be an option. Everybody else is somewhere scattered through time and space or had their memory erased. But why not have them there? I hope the reason was that Freema Agyeman and Noel Clarke declined and not that they weren't invited. But I have a bit of a hard time believing that both of them would decline to film that small cameo.

-

At the end the doctors clothes regnerated. Oh fuck you, Chibnall or RTD! Whoever wrote that part: Booo!

-

Just your daily reminder that 99% of the universe is still destroyed, as Chibnall never bothered to reverse it.

I'm just glad it's finally over and we can go back to a competent showrunner for a while.

[PurpleTentacle]

44 minutes ago, Captain Stable said:

1: What was the Master's timeline in this episode? Was he Rasputin, then the Seismologist Master who was turned into The Doctor, and "died" when the cyber planet was destroyed?

Don't think too much about it. It doesn't make any sense either way.

45 minutes ago, Captain Stable said:

2: How did Graham get involved in the volcano plot? He seemed to know what was going on, but when the Doctor saw him, she was shocked to see him there, so she didn't send him...

I guess he heard about the seismologists going missing and then decided to jump into a vulcano? Again, doesn't make any sense. Just be glad it's over and we'll have competent writers soon.

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, Captain Stable said:

2: How did Graham get involved in the volcano plot?

Graham and Ryan had plans to investigate weird stuff after parting with the Doctor, so this was part of it.

[starri]

47 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I hope the reason was that Freema Agyeman and Noel Clarke declined and not that they weren't invited.

Noel Clarke was accused of sexual harassment by twenty different women.  I can't imagine they'd have wanted him.

[PurpleTentacle]

9 minutes ago, starri said:

Noel Clarke was accused of sexual harassment by twenty different women.  I can't imagine they'd have wanted him.

I didn't know that. Well shit.

Still, why no Freema?

Edited October 24, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Chaos Theory]

Doctor Who was kinda queerbaty with The Doctor and Yaz but no more then a lot of other shows that play up certain relationships that have no intention of taking the leap.  Still I will always think the two felt something more then friendship for each other. 

The “we used to be you” conversations never do go down well.   

Loved seeing Graham again.    I haven’t watched all the old school stuff but I still like seeing the history if that makes sense.    

I don’t know if I am in the minority and I don’t care but I liked the current doctor and I am sad to see her go.   Bringing back David Tennant is an interesting development although I am slightly disappointed that the doctor is a dude again.

A Doctor Support group is actually a fun idea.  I would watch a series about that.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[libgirl2]

Ian Chesterton was there!  Tegan remains one of my favorite companions. I loved how she was determined to get into the TARDIS. And what a pleasure to see our Doctors.... 

[Lantern7]

That was fun. I'm thinking Tennant wouldn't have come back if the show didn't do right by Jodie's regeneration. After all, he's always been a Whovian. It's just a shame that nothing can be done in secret anymore. The surprise of Ten's duds reappearing upon the regeneration was neat, but the de-regeneration would've been a huge shock if we didn't know about it.

There's a lot to unpack, but I enjoyed the episode. Nice sendoff for Jodie, though I wish her run was a lot smoother. Totally not her fault, though. Like I said during Flux, everything felt grand, but it took a while to figure out what the hell was going on.

I need to get Doctor/Master sketched out for me. Sascha going total ham, grabbing everything he could in the TARDIS wardrobe to wear at the same time . . . oddly awesome. And he kept Jodie's earring.

[QuantumMechanic]

After The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot (which I wish was available on disc or a streamer) it was great to see Davison, Baker, and McCoy actually in a special.

Edited October 24, 2022 by QuantumMechanic
Because one must get titles correct!

[DanaK]

I really enjoyed this though there was a lot going on and I had trouble understanding some pieces. Even though I haven’t watched Classic Who, I knew who Tegan and Ace were and I enjoyed watching them here. I also enjoyed their interaction with their Doctors and 13’s interaction with some of the older Doctors in that waiting area. Jodie was great as was Mandip, especially in the scene where the Doctor started glowing and they realized she was going to regenerate. Though I wanted to see a kiss between the Doctor and Yaz and some time together as a couple, it was clear they cared about each other. I wish Yaz had given a clear reason why she left instead of waiting for the new Doctor

The regeneration scene was beautiful, especially with the 13th Doctor’s theme playing. I wish we had seen a bit of Ncuti in there before we got David.
 

BBC America didn’t show the short 2023 trailer, at least for me. Did anyone else get it in the US. 

Jodie was my first and favorite Doctor and this has been my favorite era so far and I will really miss her and this era

[QuantumMechanic]

10/10 for the nostalgia/fan service, especially the chats between Tegan and Five and between Ace and Seven.
2/10 for the incoherent plot

So maybe a 6 overall?

Edited October 24, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[AudienceofOne]

Doctor Who at this point is basically nonsense wrapped in 150 pounds of nostalgia and covered up with a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing. It's fun, that's for sure, just so long as you don't think about it. Like, at all.

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

BBC America didn’t show the short 2023 trailer, at least for me. Did anyone else get it in the US. 

You can find it on YT now.  (It's only about 17 seconds._

[Llywela]

9 hours ago, John Potts said:

Though even if the Doctor regenerated into the Master's body, that wouldn't make her the Master any more than Romana became Princess Astra when she regenerated into Lalla Ward (maybe the device includes some Mind Whammy as well, we know the Time Lords could do that).

The Master has had the ability to transfer his mind into someone else's body since the early 80s, so that part can almost be made to make sense, if you squint, except that it couldn't be reversed, so Yaz certainly shouldn't have been able to reverse it, so...

Like I said, a fun team up, loved seeing all the old faces, but if you think about any aspect of the plot for longer than a second, it all falls apart. Typical Chibnall. There were some really lovely moments. It's just a shame the plot was such a mess - so many characters doing what they did purely because the plot required them to rather than because it made sense.

I did love that the two returning 80s companions both had history with the Master, Cybermen and Daleks, so could hit the ground very much running, as it were.

I'm trying not to think about the number of soldiers UNIT must have lost, or about how many were killed by Kate and Tegan collapsing the building on them, rather than by the Cybermen. Those two should not have been the only ones to escape alive.

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Chibnall's final "fuck you" to canon. That's not how regenerations work and forced regenerations aren't any different. As they pointed out, we saw a forced regeneration before. A forced regneration is basically just the same as shooting a timelord with a gun and not giving them the option not to regenerate.

In "the night of the doctor" it was heavily implied that the timelords don't even have the technology to influence the regeneration. Only the sisterhood of Karn has. But even they could just influence personality, not rewrite the whole character and being.

Kate: "How is it bigger on the inside?"

Ah come on. She is the head of UNIT. She should have researched all the theoretical possibilities and narrowed it down ages ago. Even Rory figured out how it functioned with just a bit of googling.

At the end the doctors clothes regnerated. Oh fuck you, Chibnall or RTD! Whoever wrote that part: Booo!

Just your daily reminder that 99% of the universe is still destroyed, as Chibnall never bothered to reverse it.

Way back in 1969/70, the Time Lords were going to allow the 2nd Doctor to choose his new face when they forced him to regenerate. He was too upset to decide, so they recinded the offer almost immediately, but still. They did have the ability to allow him to choose his face.

As for the rest of your comments, yes. Although I am going to assume that the clothes taking part in the regeneration will be part of the plot for Tennant's specials. Because it was such a definite break from the norm, it has to have been a deliberate choice, and must therefore be leading somewhere, surely. (Or maybe there was just no way beanpole Tennant could fit into Jodie's clothes, unlike Sacha Dhawan, who is shorter? But still. No, it must be leading somewhere)

Also, I did appreciate, very much, that the Doctor chose to regenerate outside the TARDIS for the first time in New Who history, and therefore did not destroy the TARDIS with regeneration energy, which has been a plot detail I've disapproved of ever since Davies introduced it, since it never once happened in the Classic show and isn't how regeneration had ever worked up until then.

I suspect Kate's reaction to the TARDIS interior, after knowing the Doctor for all these years, was intended to call back to her father's reaction to the TARDIS interior when he finally saw it, after knowing the Doctor for years. But it did not suit the character or her situation at all, both of which are very different from the dear old Brig.

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I didn't know that. Well shit.

Still, why no Freema?

Freema Agyeman lives in America these days, doesn't she, and has an ongoing show, so she probably wasn't available for filming. All the New Who companions have been pretty busy since they left the show, which is a shame - as you said, it would have been good to see more crossover in that scene. It still represented a good cross-section of the show, though. Ian thrilled me the most. William Russell is 97 years old now! I was so happy to see him.

The AI interface was a good way of getting some older Doctors back for an episode, and explaining why they looked different, I'll give Chibnall that.

However, not lost on me that the Doctor herself was sidelined for most of the story, yet again. Chibnall has done that to her a lot.

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

A Doctor Support group is actually a fun idea.  I would watch a series about that.

Me too. It's a thing that fans have loved to imagine happening for years and years - there are loads of fanfics around the concept. So I am delighted to see it on-screen. Shame it took so long, though - we've lost so many former companions since 2005. If we'd had a scene like this 10-15 years ago, there'd have been more returning faces.

Overall, like I said, some lovely little moments and some delightful ideas, but the plot was an absolute mess. Typical Chibnall, in fact.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Llywela

[DanaK]

2 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

You can find it on YT now.  (It's only about 17 seconds._

Yeah, I did see it on the Doctor Who Twitter feed afterwards. Strange that BBC America didn’t show it

I started to watch the special via BBC America and then switched to streaming via AMC+ when the special became available about 20 minutes in (time includes BBCA’s commercials naturally)

[John Potts]

Another thing I did like was The Master as Rasputin - he fits surprisingly well in the role (a bit reminding me of the Meddling Monk - also a Time Lord). And even though I know something of the real Rasputin, I still can't hear the name without going "Ra-Ra-Rasputin, Russia's greatest love machine..." so I'm glad they played with that. I did think the new planet was going to turn out to be the the Tanguska asteroid (or part of it would be) but that was a few years earlier (1908).

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

Ian thrilled me the most. William Russell is 97 years old now! I was so happy to see him.

Wow! I thought he looked old, but that's pretty good for somebody nearing his century.

[Llywela]

39 minutes ago, John Potts said:

Wow! I thought he looked old, but that's pretty good for somebody nearing his century.

I so, so badly wanted Ian to make an appearance in the 50th anniversary. I thought Smith would have been the perfect New Doctor for him to meet, because back in the 60s, Ian was a young man and the Doctor was old, so it would have made for such a contrast for Ian, now old, to meet such a young-looking Doctor. And the Doctor would have called him 'dear boy', like he used to, and it would have been beautiful. I'd have loved to see him meet Jodie's Doctor, in much the same way. I will have to settle for him joining an ex-companions support group and getting to hear all the stories of so many people who met the Doctor after he did, finding out who the Doctor became, after Ian and Barbara had such an enormous influence on him*.

(*Seriously. The Doctor became a hero who started helping people because of Ian and Barbara, because of the example they set and the influence they had on him. That was the First Doctor's character journey, 1963-6. So seeing Ian again is very special)

[Llywela]

I wrote up my thoughts on the episode more fully, and may as well share that here as on my blog, if anyone is interested:

So. Doctor Who. End of an era, and all that.

I have a lot of thoughts and I have a lot of feelings. Some of them are good and some of them are bad.

I want to focus on the good.

So for the bad, I will simply say that this regeneration episode was very typical of Chris Chibnall. Kind of encapsulated his entire era. Nothing made sense, including most of the character motivations. If you stop to examine any part of the plot for even a second, it all falls apart. It was a mess, an overblown mess. Less is more, and I really wish that Doctor Who writers understood that.

And what kind of an exit was that for not one but two companions? Dan kind of just wandered off right at the start of the episode, in much the same way that he just wandered into the story when he first arrived. He was likeable enough, but never more than a cipher. Never more than a placeholder. He spent more time with Yaz than with the Doctor, though (they spent literal years together, trapped in the past) so it was fitting that Yaz was the one he actually said a proper goodbye to. And Yaz! What kind of exit was that for such a long-running companion? How was that the culmination of her story? Has Chibnall never, in fact, heard of a meaningful character arc? Yaz came aboard all ambition, abandoned all that ambition in favour of being with the Doctor, has been shown to be *so very devoted*, that's like, her most defining character trait, and then she just…left. Because she and the Doctor both simply took it for granted, without question, that Yaz couldn't or wouldn't stay once the Doctor regenerated? Why? It makes no sense, and no explanation or actual character motivation was offered.

And it means that after 17 years of New Who, we still haven't seen either a companion or a Doctor straddling the eras of different head writers, which I have wanted ever since Smith.

Also – hey look, there's Chris Chibnall sidelining the Doctor in her own story, yet again. He's done it too many times now.

How many UNIT soldiers died in this episode, exactly? And how many were killed by Kate Stewart and Tegan collapsing the building on top of them, instead of by the Cybermen? (RIP, new UNIT base, we hardly knew you). And how is collapsing the building on top of the Cybermen supposed to destroy them anyway, given that they can now regenerate? (A plot detail I would really like to forget now, thanks.) And how exactly did Kate and Tegan escape intact?

Shouldn't Kate Stewart have been prepared for the inside of the TARDIS and known what to expect, even if she hasn't actually seen it before?

There is a lot more I could rant about, but I did say I wanted to focus on the good. So here are some things that I liked.

There were some really lovely little moments tucked away here and there through the episode, amid all the frenetic chaos.

I can forgive a lot for a good team-up, and – as long as you don't, you know, think about the plot or the details in any way whatsoever – that was a good team-up. A good team-up in the sense that we got to see a whole bunch of characters from different eras all interacting and working together, and I do always like that. I'm a sucker for a crossover.

I liked seeing Tegan and Ace again. I liked that Tegan and Ace had clearly met independently some time ago, and teamed up to investigate weird things, because, knowing what they know, why not?

I like that it was Graham who finally set up a support group for ex-companions, because of course he did, he had the best characterisation of all Chibnall's companions and that was totally in-character. And I loved how random it was that he was in the volcano in Bolivia with Ace! Ties in with his last episode, when he talked to Ryan about investigating weird things off their own bat.

I loved that we got to see so many former companions on our screens again in the main show, even if only the tiniest glimpse. Jo Grant! Mel! IAN! I've longed to see Ian again for so very long, William Russell is 97 now, this might well be the last chance, and if Ian couldn't get to meet the Doctor again, at least he got to meet other companions and hear all their stories, and find out what a massive impact he and Barbara had on the Doctor, since it was 100% their influence that made him the hero he became. Seeing all those companions again meant so much, a proper on-screen acknowledgement that they existed, they were important, both to the Doctor and to the show, because they helped to build the legacy that has carried the show for so many years.

(I continue to wish that we'd had a scene like this years ago, when more of the former companions were still with us)

And while I disliked seeing the Doctor sidelined in her own show yet again, I did love that the companions – old and new – stepped up to be the heroes when she couldn't be, which is a powerful message to send. The New Who era has emphasised the legend of the Doctor so much, has built the character up so much – the Last of the Time Lords, the Lonely God, the Timeless Child, etc. But my favourite version of the Doctor has always been the Gallifreyan dropout who did badly in school and ran away to see the universe, and then learned compassion from a pair of human schoolteachers, and learned that lesson so well that they became a hero themself, simply because they realised that they could. Because that version of the Doctor reminds us that anyone can be the hero. Reminds us that the Doctor's companions aren't inherently special, either (Only takes the best? No. Inspires people to *be* the best). The Doctor's former companions are just people who happened to meet the Doctor, and learned from that experience and from that example, just as the Doctor learned from Ian and Barbara. Anyone can step up. Anyone could be capable of making those hard choices, if pressed.

Any one of us could be the Doctor's companion, in the right place or time.

And that's what has always made the Doctor special, right at the core of the character – the friendships they form, the way they inspire others to be the best they can be. That love and that hope have always been the heart of the show, and I love that this episode encapsulated that, even if the plot was a bit rubbish.

And that, of course, is what the Master has never, ever understood. I have loved Sacha Dhawan's take on the character, though, especially in the quieter moments, when he is allowed to be subtle. I loved that his plan was so over-the-top convoluted, full of details that made no sense, because that is 100% in character for the Master. If he can randomly be a scarecrow in a field, just on the off chance that the Doctor might pass someday (don't ask), why shouldn't he also be Rasputin and install a sound system in the Winter Palace in 1916 just so he can dance to Boney M to taunt his old rival? That's just who the character is. And it was fun to see him in Jodie's costume, and then finding elements of other Doctors' costumes.

Also, I loved seeing so many former Doctors! I thought the concept behind that (both concepts) was clever, even if the writing for the concept wasn't the best. I can forgive a lot for getting to see Peter Davison and Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy and Paul McGann being the Doctor on-screen in a proper episode of the proper show again. I squealed out loud, I really did! And I loved getting to see Tegan and Davison's Doctor interact one last time, and for getting to see Ace and McCoy's Doctor interact one last time, that was beautiful.

Man, they even referenced Adric, and what a trauma his death was, both for the Doctor and for Tegan (and Nyssa, who wasn't here for this reunion.)

The Sarah Jane Adventures told us that Sarah knew of other companions, but had never met them. During the 2020 lockdowns, Russell Davies created a tiny webisode called 'Farewell, Sarah Jane', which told us that many former companions attended her funeral and talked about their friendship with her – and that Tegan and Nyssa were living together on Earth at that time. So I am choosing to believe that Sarah's funeral hasn't happened yet. That Sarah is still alive to join Graham's support group (she was busy on the day of the one we saw, just like Barbara, obviously) and will get to know all those other companions through that group, and Nyssa hasn't made it to present day Earth just yet, but she will, and all that has yet to happen. Because the adventure goes on…forever.

(My niece has been watching the Sarah Jane Adventures again lately. That last episode still makes me really emotional, even now.)

Great to see Jo Martin's Doctor again, even if she shouldn't really be called Doctor, given where she seems to fit. I'd like to see more of her!

I liked seeing Vinder again too, even if it was totally random and not really explained at all, because I like the character and I like the actor, and that's enough for me. I like the idea that the Doctor has all these allies out there in time and space, and that they will step up to help when they run across the Doctor again - and I like it even better when the old friend who shows up to help is someone we've met before, someone whose first meeting with the Doctor we saw on-screen, rather than someone newly invented whose history with the Doctor happened off-screen.

I still find it weird that the Doctor can sometimes hold off regeneration for quite some time, but I like that she chose to regenerate *outside* the TARDIS this time. It still annoys me that New Who regenerations have become so violent, but if they must be so, better to do it in a way that minimises damage! I liked, too, that while the regeneration was bittersweet, it was also optimistic, looking forward with hope rather than backward with regret.

And then there's the regeneration itself…

It's not just the Doctor regenerated back into a previously-worn face. The *clothes* regenerated as well! I have to assume that was a deliberate choice that will mean something, since it has never happened before and both Chris Chibnall and Russell Davies know that. Was it simply that lanky David Tennant could not fit into any part of tiny Jodie Whittaker's wardrobe? Sacha Dhawan managed, but he is shorter. No, surely there has to be an explanation coming up!

What number Doctor is this? Or is that the whole point, to emphasise that the numbering system is totally out of whack already? Maybe we should just give up and identify them by actor name, like we do with the Master and Romana?

Whatever, I am looking forward once more to what next year and David Tennant's specials are going to bring!

[NeenerNeener]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

14 hours ago, John Potts said:

10 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I didn't know that. Well shit.

Still, why no Freema?

Freema Agyeman lives in America these days, doesn't she, and has an ongoing show, so she probably wasn't available for filming.

She left the New Amsterdam cast last spring. Although while this was being written they may have assumed she wasn't available and just didn't bother to ask her. According to her IMDB listing she's not filming anything in the US right now; I don't know if it would show anything she's currently filming in Britain or elsewhere.

Edited to try to clean up my "quote", because somehow I got that whole post instead of just the piece about Freema.

Edited October 24, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

I so, so badly wanted Ian to make an appearance in the 50th anniversary. I thought Smith would have been the perfect New Doctor for him to meet, because back in the 60s, Ian was a young man and the Doctor was old, so it would have made for such a contrast for Ian, now old, to meet such a young-looking Doctor. And the Doctor would have called him 'dear boy', like he used to, and it would have been beautiful. I'd have loved to see him meet Jodie's Doctor, in much the same way. I will have to settle for him joining an ex-companions support group and getting to hear all the stories of so many people who met the Doctor after he did, finding out who the Doctor became, after Ian and Barbara had such an enormous influence on him*.

(*Seriously. The Doctor became a hero who started helping people because of Ian and Barbara, because of the example they set and the influence they had on him. That was the First Doctor's character journey, 1963-6. So seeing Ian again is very special)

You hit the nail on the head, Ian and Barbara helped to transform the Doctor into who they are today. It was wonderful to see him.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

She left the New Amsterdam cast last spring. Although while this was being written they may have assumed she wasn't available and just didn't bother to ask her. According to her IMDB listing she's not filming anything in the US right now; I don't know if it would show anything she's currently filming in Britain or elsewhere.

Edited to try to clean up my "quote", because somehow I got that whole post instead of just the piece about Freema.

Ah, okay. I assumed she was still tied up with New Amsterdam. She might not have been available for other reasons - like Anneke Wills, who played Polly back in the 60s and was invited to be part of the Former Companions Anonymous Group, but had another commitment on the day the scene was filmed. Or maybe Freema just didn't want to make a blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance like that.

[Anduin]

I think I liked it. Okay, I stopped watching regularly when I discovered River Song was going to be a frequent guest. But I haven't missed a regeneration yet, so why not? In the past few years my SF tastes have drifted a lot harder, but you never forget your first love. Yes, it was complete nonsense. Yes, it was overstuffed. But once I managed to relax and just enjoy the ride, it was actually fun.

So we had 1, then 5 - 8. I get they had David Bradley and maybe Tom Baker didn't want to do a cameo, but none of the new ones? Even though there was Tennant at the end anyway? Couldn't they have gotten Sean Pertwee or Charles Edwards? I suppose I should be glad an overstuffed story wasn't stuffed further. :)

I hope there's a good reason for bringing 10 back, other than 'hey, everyone's favourite is back! We all know him and love him! Can we get a budget increase?'

Also, why was that planet not Mondas? Sure it would be a gratuitous continuity reference, but it was playing the same role, may as well make it Mondas.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Anduin

[DavidJSnyder]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

It's not just the Doctor regenerated back into a previously-worn face. The *clothes* regenerated as well! I have to assume that was a deliberate choice that will mean something, since it has never happened before and both Chris Chibnall and Russell Davies know that. 

Except with the First to Second Doctor when the clothes did change.

But I think you're probably right that the clothes are part of the "What" of the Doctor going back to Tennant unnaturally.

[marina to]

14 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I didn't know that. Well shit.

Still, why no Freema?

In an interview Chibnall said that he didn't know what RTD had planned for the 60th so he purposely stayed away from any new Who characters so not to mess up anything that RTD would do.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone we saw last night should have been in the 50th so he righted a great wrong. That alone endears me to this episode.

Edited October 24, 2022 by marina to

[marina to]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Also, I did appreciate, very much, that the Doctor chose to regenerate outside the TARDIS for the first time in New Who history, and therefore did not destroy the TARDIS with regeneration energy, which has been a plot detail I've disapproved of ever since Davies introduced it, since it never once happened in the Classic show and isn't how regeneration had ever worked up until then.

I was so happy to see this!

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

So we had 1, then 5 - 8. I get they had David Bradley and maybe Tom Baker didn't want to do a cameo, but none of the new ones? Even though there was Tennant at the end anyway? Couldn't they have gotten Sean Pertwee or Charles Edwards? I suppose I should be glad an overstuffed story wasn't stuffed further. :)

I hope there's a good reason for bringing 10 back, other than 'hey, everyone's favourite is back! We all know him and love him! Can we get a budget increase?'

Also, why was that planet not Mondas? Sure it would be a gratuitous continuity reference, but it was playing the same role, may as well make it Mondas.

Tom Baker is in poor health lately, so filming may not have been possible for him - I saw a recent picture only last week (maybe the week before?) and was shocked at how frail he looked. He did get to appear in the 50th anniversary, though. The Classic Doctors we saw here were the ones (still living) who hadn't made any previous reappearance on the show, and I think the balance was just about right. David Bradley as One is acceptable as he's played the role before, but any further recasts would have upset the focus of the scene, and would not have the same emotional impact. As for the more recent former Doctors, Tennant of course was held back for the reveal at the end, Eccleston is unlikely to agree to such a thing, Smith is very busy and probably wasn't available, and Capaldi perhaps was too recent. For an episode written to celebrate 100 years of the BBC, it felt right to look back further than the modern era of the show for these returns.

I think the main reason we are getting Tennant for the three specials is because of how the timing worked out. When Chibnall started work on this script, it wasn't even certain the show would be continuing at all - you can see how the set-up for the regeneration would have worked as a 'finale' for a show going on indefinite hiatus. If Davies hadn't agreed to come back, if the show had been shelved, the episode would have ended at the moment of regeneration, without revealing the new face. "Tag, you're it" - fade to black. Then when Davies agreed to come back and write a 60th anniversary episode ahead of the next season, the timing was pretty tight and there was no new Doctor in place, the casting process hadn't even begun. So I can see how it solved a lot of problems to get Tennant to return for a couple of episodes to fill the gap and get Davies back into the groove, before handing over to the actual new Doctor for a full season run the year after, allowing a more leisurely audition process, instead of having to rush and then having the pressure of introducing a new Doctor in the anniversary episode.

But there absolutely needs to be a really good explanation for the regressive regeneration in-show. And I'm fairly certain there will be. Davies has his issues, as a writer, but based on his past work, I am confident that the return of Tennant and the regeneration of the outfit as well as the body will have some basis in plot. Whether it makes sense or not...that remains to be seen!

ETA - I think Mondas would have been a deep-cut too many, plus the fate of that planet has already played out. This was a similar scenario, but it was right that it was a different planet serving a different purpose.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Llywela

[marina to]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

So we had 1, then 5 - 8. I get they had David Bradley and maybe Tom Baker didn't want to do a cameo, but none of the new ones? Even though there was Tennant at the end anyway? Couldn't they have gotten Sean Pertwee or Charles Edwards? I suppose I should be glad an overstuffed story wasn't stuffed further. :)

I hope there's a good reason for bringing 10 back, other than 'hey, everyone's favourite is back! We all know him and love him! Can we get a budget increase?'

Both of these had to do with RTD's 60th. Chibnall doesn't know what RTD had planned so he stayed away from New Who so as to not mess with anything he's doing. I'm assuming the change to Tennant was planned between the two, since immediately after the airing there was this:

https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/david-tennant-is-the-fourteenth-doctor

9 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Tom Baker is in poor health lately, so filming may not have been possible for him - I saw a recent picture only last week (maybe the week before?) and was shocked at how frail he looked.

Chibnall said he was asked but was unavailable. This is probably why.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, marina to said:

Chibnall said he was asked but was unavailable. This is probably why.

I saw him too recently and he lost so much weight and looks so frail. I am glad he was able to be in the 50th at least. 

[marina to]

23 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I think the main reason we are getting Tennant for the three specials is because of how the timing worked out. When Chibnall started work on this script, it wasn't even certain the show would be continuing at all - you can see how the set-up for the regeneration would have worked as a 'finale' for a show going on indefinite hiatus. If Davies hadn't agreed to come back, if the show had been shelved, the episode would have ended at the moment of regeneration, without revealing the new face. "Tag, you're it" - fade to black. Then when Davies agreed to come back and write a 60th anniversary episode ahead of the next season, the timing was pretty tight and there was no new Doctor in place, the casting process hadn't even begun. So I can see how it solved a lot of problems to get Tennant to return for a couple of episodes to fill the gap and get Davies back into the groove, before handing over to the actual new Doctor for a full season run the year after, allowing a more leisurely audition process, instead of having to rush and then having the pressure of introducing a new Doctor in the anniversary episode.

I hadn't thought of this but it makes a great deal of sense. I couldn't remember how long ago this was shot.

[PurpleTentacle]

50 minutes ago, marina to said:

In an interview Chibnall said that he didn't know what RTD had planned for the 60th so he purposely stayed away from any new Who characters so not to mess up anything that RTD would do.

Well that's the worst lie I've ever heard. No wonder Chibnall can't write fiction if he can't even lie convincingly.

*ring ring* "Hey Russel, mind if I include Martha Jones in a support group for companions, for like a minute?"

After this 5 second phone call he would have known.

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t know if I am in the minority and I don’t care but I liked the current doctor and I am sad to see her go.

I don't know if you are and I don't care either. But the writing under Chibnall was abysmal and Jodie Whittaker is a mediocre actor at best. So I'm glad it's finally over.

12 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I'm thinking Tennant wouldn't have come back if the show didn't do right by Jodie's regeneration.

Tennant is coming back because he loved working under RTD and thinks he will do a good job as showrunner. I don't see how that has anything to do with how this episode went.

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

Way back in 1969/70, the Time Lords were going to allow the 2nd Doctor to choose his new face when they forced him to regenerate. He was too upset to decide, so they recinded the offer almost immediately, but still. They did have the ability to allow him to choose his face.

Chosing the face was a thing, that is true. Some timelords, who were better at regenerating than the doctor could even do it on their own. Romana even tried out a few that one time before settling on one. I was more talking about character, personality, memories, what you'd colloquially call "the soul".

In this episode it seemed the doctor was completely overwritten by the master. Something RTD did at some point with all humans being overwritten by the master, but certainly not through regeneration.

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Great to see Jo Martin's Doctor again, even if she shouldn't really be called Doctor, given where she seems to fit. I'd like to see more of her!

I hope all of that timeless child nonsense gets retconned. But I still hope Jo Martin gets slotted in there somewhere, because I do love her doctor. There is a gap at the forced regneration that could theoretically have a bunch of doctors in there, if I remember correctly.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Eccleston is unlikely to agree to such a thing

I guess it would depend on the money. He does Big Finish now.

But he's unlikely to come back for any money in the world under RTD, since that falling out was seemingly really bad. So I guess we won't get to see him until the 70th, at the very least.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

But there absolutely needs to be a really good explanation for the regressive regeneration in-show. And I'm fairly certain there will be.

They established that it was going to happen with some old doctors in the 50th. When Tom Baker says "You might find yourself revisiting a few of the old favorites [faces]." That was also the explaination how Tom Baker was there and old. It wasn't the original Tom-Baker doctor, but a re-regeneration.

I don't think it requires any further explaination than that.

[PurpleTentacle]

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

What number Doctor is this? Or is that the whole point, to emphasise that the numbering system is totally out of whack already? Maybe we should just give up and identify them by actor name, like we do with the Master and Romana?

Spoiler

According to RTD Ncuti's dcotor is the 15th, so Tennant-2 seems to be officially the 14th.

"If you thought the appearance of David Tennant was a shock, we’ve got plenty more surprises on the way! The path to Ncuti’s Fifteenth Doctor is laden with mystery, horror, robots, puppets, danger and fun! And how is it connected to the return of the wonderful Donna Noble? How, what, why? We’re giving you a year to speculate, and then all hell lets loose!"

https://nerdist.com/article/ncuti-gatwa-is-the-fifteenth-doctor-on-doctor-who-david-tennant-fourteen/

I put it in spoiler tags because it could be considered slightly spoilery. But no major spoilers, especially if you haven't lived on the moon for the past months.

Edited October 24, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Llywela]

11 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

  Hide contents

According to RTD Ncuti's dcotor is the 15th, so Tennant-2 seems to be officially the 14th.

"If you thought the appearance of David Tennant was a shock, we’ve got plenty more surprises on the way! The path to Ncuti’s Fifteenth Doctor is laden with mystery, horror, robots, puppets, danger and fun! And how is it connected to the return of the wonderful Donna Noble? How, what, why? We’re giving you a year to speculate, and then all hell lets loose!"

https://nerdist.com/article/ncuti-gatwa-is-the-fifteenth-doctor-on-doctor-who-david-tennant-fourteen/

I put it in spoiler tags because it could be considered slightly spoilery. But no major spoilers, especially if you haven't lived on the moon for the past months.

Oh, I do know about this statement. I just mean...the whole numbering system really is increasingly up the spout. We've got all the pre-One Timeless Child Doctors. Season 6b. Ten Two (that blip counted as a regeneration, which was Moffat's excuse for doing the end of the regeneration cycle early, but wasn't numbered as such). The War Doctor. Now Ten is back as Fourteen. It really is all too convoluted at this point and makes little sense, since so many of the numbers aren't even accurate. Using the actor name, like we do for the Masters, makes it easier.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Oh, I do know about this statement. I just mean...the whole numbering system really is increasingly up the spout. We've got all the pre-One Timeless Child Doctors. Season 6b. Ten Two (that blip counted as a regeneration, which was Moffat's excuse for doing the end of the regeneration cycle early, but wasn't numbered as such). The War Doctor. Now Ten is back as Fourteen. It really is all too convoluted at this point and makes little sense, since so many of the numbers aren't even accurate. Using the actor name, like we do for the Masters, makes it easier.

I understand that but I also feel that doctors 1-7 earned their numbers. 

[Llywela]

29 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I understand that but I also feel that doctors 1-7 earned their numbers. 

And I understand that. 🙂 But I've never really liked calling them by their numbers as if those are their names, the way fans so often do - and I've fallen into the habit of it myself, I concede. One, Two, Nine, Ten, etc - we treat them as the characters' names, but they aren't. The numbers were only ever a shorthand for differentiating between the different incarnations of the same character. They are all the Doctor. The First Doctor, the Fifth Doctor, the Eleventh Doctor, etc. And the numbers going forward are totally up the spout (thanks for that, Moffat, much as I loved the War Doctor) - certainly the casual viewer can't keep track! Maybe we should just give up on clarity and coherence and leave it at that! So Tennant is both the Tenth and the Fourteenth. Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Llywela

[HauntedBathroom]

Hoorah and farewell to Chibby!! It was his standard pish, but at least we got proper Doctors and Ian. The nightmare is over!

[Llywela]

13 minutes ago, HauntedBathroom said:

Hoorah and farewell to Chibby!! It was his standard pish, but at least we got proper Doctors and Ian. The nightmare is over!

'Proper Doctors'? This implies that you believe there are improper Doctors, by which I assume you mean Whittaker. Which, no. Whittaker is very much a 'proper Doctor'. She suffered from poor writing, to be sure, as have many before her, but she is still very much the Doctor.

[libgirl2]

She is a proper Doctor. She is part of Doctor Who canon. I will say, I was never a Jo Martin Doctor fan but I was thrilled to see her. She commands a room. 

[taanja]

Whoa! That was a lot!

Dude who plays the Master was chewing up that scenery and spitting it out! raw! raw!

I couldn't tell you what happened if you paid me. Though it was good to see some of the "old" companions. and I mean OLD! because I am old and they were young when I was young. I was like -- seriously those old ladies are running around like that? They will be bruised! They will physically pay the price!

So the Doctor is David Tennant again? ( is that possible for the Doctor to become one of his/her older regenerations? Since when?) and when he  regenerated -- his cloths regenerated too? seriously? What?

[Ceindreadh]

18 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

That was fun. I'm thinking Tennant wouldn't have come back if the show didn't do right by Jodie's regeneration. After all, he's always been a Whovian. It's just a shame that nothing can be done in secret anymore. The surprise of Ten's duds reappearing upon the regeneration was neat, but the de-regeneration would've been a huge shock if we didn't know about it.

Well I for one was totally shocked.  I'd managed to avoid spoilers and my reaction was pretty much the same as 10/14s reaction.  "WHAT!!!"  (okay, maybe a little louder!)

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

So the Doctor is David Tennant again? ( is that possible for the Doctor to become one of his/her older regenerations? Since when?)

Inherently, there's no reason why he couldn't. In fact, Romana regenerated into Princess Astra (Lalla Ward) twice, IIRC (though she seemed to be trying out bodies, so it may have just been some sort of intermediate regeneration). The only reason the Doctor hasn't traditionally is that he is too busy dying to take active control of the process (and obviously the OOC reason that the actor generally doesn't want to go back to a role they've left).

[DavidJSnyder]

5 minutes ago, John Potts said:

Inherently, there's no reason why he couldn't. 

Also the Curator says he can in Day of the Doctor.

But there’s probably an outside force at work.

[mammaM]

It wasn't great. 

It was great seeing all the familiar faces (I'm sorry Tom Baker wasn't up for it, he'll always be MY doctor)

And I love Tennant so the next couple of episodes will be fun.

When Jodie regenerated into David and he went "I know those teeth" I snorted coffee out my nose😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Sakura12]

Well this was good for nostalgic purposes but as a show it was a typical Chibnal throw everything at the wall and nothing sticks. I never know what the actual story is. Then he never let's any of them breathe. We can talk about the companion send offs for the others, but Yaz gets nothing, not even a what is she going to do next. I would've loved to see Martha meet the 13th Doctor. I would've even taken River just to see everyone's reaction to meeting the Doctor's wife. 

I'll miss Jodie and wish she had time with a different writer-showrunner. But David Tennent is my Doctor and I can't wait to see him and Donna again. 

[greekmom]

So at this point TPTB realized they are losing ppl and decided to back peddle.

Why did it take a long time for Jodie's Doctor to regenerate but in previous regenerations it was pretty instant.  Jodie had time to hang out with Yaz and have an ice cream.   Strange that Tennant wasn't wearing Jodie's clothes when he became the Doctor. That's only happened - what? once before?

I wonder how much they promised Tennant for a repeat, why he took the job and if he was their first choice.  

I did like the support group for companions but laughed in my sleeve that some of the more major players over the years didn't show up. Guess they blew the budget on Tennant. 

[fredfreddy44]

21 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Ian Chesterton was there!  Tegan remains one of my favorite companions. I loved how she was determined to get into the TARDIS. And what a pleasure to see our Doctors.... 

At first I thought it was Bob Barker from The Price is Right.  I had to rewind 3 times until I saw the name tag.

And Mel looked amazing.  Didn't need a tag to ID her.

Edited October 25, 2022 by fredfreddy44

[rur]

14 hours ago, greekmom said:

Why did it take a long time for Jodie's Doctor to regenerate but in previous regenerations it was pretty instant.  Jodie had time to hang out with Yaz and have an ice cream.   

Apparently they have some control. Remember, there was a holiday special where both #12 and #1 were putting off regeneration. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by rur
Numbers!