S01.E08: Alloyed

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

New alliances are forged.

Reminder: 

This is for discussion of the TV show only, no book talk allowed - including saying "but it's different in the books". Any spoiler from outside the books and stories (including previews or the movies) should be in spoiler tags.

[Brn2bwild]

The Stranger is so Gandalf, I would laugh if he turned out to be Saruman. And suddenly he's fully fluent in the harfoots' language? With am elegant accent no less?

To no one's surprise, Halbrand was Sauron. Galandriel should have performed a better background check before taking him to the elves.  She also should have warned Elrond and company of his identity and that he could still be close by.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Brn2bwild

[Camera One]

I'm not sure what I thought of that.  It wasn't bad, but it also wasn't a very satisfying origin story for the rings.  I think I liked it a little less than the last episode, and overall found it about average... watchable but uninspired and uneven.

They sure were committed to making Gil-galad unpleasant.  Couldn't they have spared a scene to show Gil-galad reacting to seeing that Galadriel was back?  Though I guess getting out of dodge would have been for the best considering everyone else fell for Halbrand's schtick. 

From an entertainment perspective, a story where all the main protagonists were basically duped was just frustrating to watch.  I'm not sure I would enjoy a rewatch knowing that Galadriel was instrumental in helping Sauron and fell for him in more ways than one.

Were we to interpret that Halbrand/Sauron is a full-out baddie from here on out?  Or were we meant to see him as a grey character who did want to forget his past and might have been neutralized if Galadriel hadn't rejected his offer?   Why was he on the raft?  What was his original plan?  Speaking of which, thank goodness Halron was so sloppy at disposing of his enemy (Galadriel) and the evidence (scroll), eh? 

Galadriel didn't even tell Elrond about Halbrand's identity before they forged the 3 rings?  So she started out the series obsessed with hunting down Sauron because he killed her brother, and now she will be just as obsessed because it's even more personal now.  What an arc.

The Cultists declaring the Stranger as Sauron was an unconvincing fake-out.  It was satisfying to see them obliterated, though that battle was occasionally laughable, with one throwing a knife right into the older Harfoot, but somehow missing Poppy three times.  Or Eminem keeping her fireballs walking in slow motion to give the Stranger time to defeat her.  It might be interesting to see Rhun next season.  Nori's goodbye scenes seriously felt like they lasted the length of an entire movie.  So she started out the series wanting more than the Harfoot life and really, nothing has changed.  Another great "arc".

With all the tediously lingering scenes in Eregion, Galadriel's imagination, and with the Harfoots, they could have carved out a good 10 minutes for Numenor instead.  Though I'm not sure I wanted to spend any time there either.  I did like the short scene with Elendil and Miriel about committing to the way of the faithful.  What was with Elendil's daughter getting access to the Palantir?   She's a weird character being a blank canvas that we practically know nothing about, but getting a pivotal cliffhanger.

Overall, the dialogue was slightly better than the very beginning of the season, but there were still a few big clunkers like "When in doubt, follow your nose".  I thought I was watching a Fruit Loops commercial.

I will watch the next season, but I would also not care too much if the series was cancelled.  Whenever there was an effective visual, my next thought was what a shame the writing and the story was so subpar that I couldn't get myself to feel emotionally moved by any of it.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Camera One

[Harvey]

The "I'm good" line was so cringy it gave me extreme second hand embarrassement. And why did the guy who is now confirmed to be proto-Gandalf learn to speak fluently in 3 seconds? Soooo stupid.

[Anduin]

31 minutes ago, Harvey said:

The "I'm good" line was so cringy it gave me extreme second hand embarrassement. And why did the guy who is now confirmed to be proto-Gandalf learn to speak fluently in 3 seconds? Soooo stupid.

First, he spent weeks or months with the Harfoots. Second, he mentioned that through his encounter with the women, he was getting flashes of memory back. Clearly that includes his powers of speech. If you pay attention or stop to actually think about the show, a great many things become clear.

[Glade]

I love Elrond, he's so beautiful, inside and out, and he is the character I'm glad to keep following; that last scene between him and Galadriel was so well acted, without a word it said everything, including how/why he will not be walking out of that room wearing one of the rings. 

Interesting that the sorcerer, despite being a shape shifter, was still not Sauron, but evidently knew how to unseal Halbrand's true powers.  I guess we will see Halbrand making (or already in possession of?) the other rings which he will distribute to characters we mostly haven't met (maybe that one shady  Numenorian advisor.).

If Amazon doesn't have the rights to Gandalf, then this could still be one of the blue wizards.  This was a good season, and I'm sure next year's will be better.

[katha]

I liked the series, it was too ponderous and self-serious in places, but the story beats felt earned even if not very surprising. Halbrand/Sauron was well done and on rewatch I'm sure some of the acting choices will work even better. Like he had these moments of strange generic blandness that now make perfect sense because he was fronting.

And I did appreciate that Galadriel's single-minded dogmatic outlook had such dire consequences. Often the stakes for heroes are quite low, she talked Sauron in midlife crisis back into world domination mode LOL. Devastating, but the series didn't flinch away from having her mess up this badly.

The Stranger being a wizard works and I like all the Harfoots. Elrond, Muriel, Elendil, the Southlanders and the dwarves as well. So I'll be watching the next season.

[Camera One]

I think Galadriel slowly suspecting Halbrand over a few episodes would have been more effective and ultimately more satisfying.  I guess Halbrand injured himself so he would "need" elven medicine?  I find it hard to believe that none of the others at the field hospital in the South Lands would have that need.  Since the Halbrand reveal wasn't too surprising, showing a flashback of what we didn't see from Halbrand (eg. how he got on the raft) might have been more interesting and shocking.

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

The "I'm good" line was so cringy it gave me extreme second hand embarrassement. 

That line stood out at me too.  It just did not need to be stated.

[WritinMan]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:27 AM, Harvey said:

The "I'm good" line was so cringy it gave me extreme second hand embarrassement.

Yeah, there have to be some better options here. But the writing has not been particularly impressive throughout the series, so it shouldn't be a surprise.

In many ways this was one of the better episodes. Some interesting things actually happened. The Stranger finally got his shit together.

Would have liked to see Halbrand/Sauron messing with the Elves get more screen time, and then Galadriel and maybe Elrond getting more suspicious. But building suspense and tension has not been one of the show's strong points.

Galadriel's idea to make three rings? Sure.

Still not interested in the Harfoots. Nori saying good-bye felt like it went on for an hour. I was very surprised that Sadoc died, though.

That last shot of Mordor was very cool.

I almost pulled a muscle cringing so hard at the Fiona Apple song at the end.

I seriously doubt I will return to this two years (or more...) from now for season 2.

Edited October 16, 2022 by WritinMan
Typo!

[thuganomics85]

Well, that was a lot!

So, the Cultists were after the Stranger because thy thought he was Sauron this entire time.  But in the end, he isn't.  Instead he is a... wizard that is good.  Yep, I'm about 90% sure I know who he really is, but I guess there could always be a surprise in store for that particular revelation.

Instead, it was Halbrand that was Sauron this entire time.  Definitely some amusing irony that he was under Galadriel's nose this entire time, despite her being so gung-ho to catch him.  But thanks to some mind-trickery, he's already escaped and heading to Mordor.  Already dawned on a black cloak and a little bit of eyeliner too!  Bad guy doing bad guy stuff!

Weird that we got so little Numenor stuff this go around, and we didn't even check in on the dwarves or Arondir/Bronwyn before we head off for what is probably going to be a two year gap before the next season.

Those were some nice looking rings, at least.

I know I shouldn't be comparing this to the films, but they clearly want me to look at Nori and Poppy's relationship as this show's version of Frodo and Sam and it was nowhere close to that level.

Overall, I did think these last few episodes were better than the first half and I'll definitely be back, but I'm still surprised that I didn't enjoy this as much as I thought I would.  It had a lot going for it; the acting, the scenery (bummed that production is apparently moved to the U.K. now, which means no more New Zealand!), the effects, etc.; but for some reason it never was able to reach its full potential.  Maybe it will fare better next season.

[pezgirl7]

I kinda liked Halbrand turning into Sauron pretty quickly in this episode. Like as soon as he shows up in the forge room, he seems cagey and just gets cagier. It's weird that only Galadriel notices though. I mostly only care about their storyline. I enjoyed seeing him go into her mind, and the reflection of them in the water where they are standing together as king and queen was pretty cool. I thought there might be more wavering from Galadriel, but she was able to not give in... except she still went along with the rings being made and decided to keep Sauron's identity a secret. I don't know if she was embarrassed, or knew if she told the truth, the rings wouldn't get made. Elrond seemed to have figured it out too, but also didn't say anything. I got the impression, that for him, it was the negative influence of the rings that made him set that info aside. I still don't quite understand Sauron's motive or plans, and if he put something in the rings that will allow him to control them later. I do think he was a bit repentant and laying low when Galadriel found him on the raft, but when she brought him to the Southlands and pushed him to be king, he got a whiff of power again. I think it was in the first episode when one of the characters said something about how her incessant search for Sauron would actually bring him into the light. 

A few people here wondered how Sauron ended up on the raft, and in this interview with the actor, it sounds like we'll find out in season 2.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/rings-of-power-finale-sauron-actor-interview-1235240895/

Edited October 15, 2022 by pezgirl7

[AimingforYoko]

When Galadriel asked Halbrand what his name was, I swear I heard this song in the background.

[quarks]

18 hours ago, lora said:

I like Halbrand much better now.

I was so worried that this was just me :) 

But yes, much though I hated the theory that Halbrand was Sauron, and much though I have been unimpressed with Halbrand all season, the instant he revealed himself - yeah, I am now firmly on Team Sauron. Which might say as much about me as it does about the show, but, look, would you rather have an Evil Overlord who thinks it's ok

Apart from my new found appreciation for Sauron, though, this is another episode that I enjoyed, but didn't love. Partly, I think, because none of the Dwarves - my favorite characters - made an appearance, but also because for me, at least, aside from arguably the Galadriel/Sauron confrontation, most of the emotional moments fell flat. Like, it was a bit hard for me to feel much of anything when Sadoc died - I know this was supposed to be sad, but this is the same guy who was willing to let several Harfoots die earlier in this show, and apparently didn't train his chosen successor to read maps - which in turn means that Poppy can't go with Nori and the Stranger on this journey, robbing the show of one of its best parts - the Nori/Poppy friendship.  It also felt quite odd, given that in the last episode, everyone was like OH NO, NORI CAN'T POSSIBLY HEAD OFF ALONE AFTER THIS STRANGER, to see all of them like, ok, sure, we'll let Nori....head off alone with the Stranger. And unless I'm really wrong, this also means that the only two people capable of reading the maps went off after the Stranger, leaving the rest of the Harfoots to struggle alone? Who are these people?

And on a related note, I think the moment when Earien touched the palantir was meant to be a DUN DUN DUN moment, but...we've hardly gotten to know her, and she hasn't been in recent episodes, so...yeah, not all that DUN DUN DUN. And did you really have to leave us all wondering what happened to Isildur's poor horse? The wisest, noblest character on the show so far and you just leave him running towards a volcano. Sniffle.

I'll be back next season, I think, but not with baited breath.

[PurpleTentacle]

So Galadriel knew the crest of the king of the south lands off the top of her head, but had no idea that the line had been broken a 1000 years ago?! Sure writers, sure.

So they still didn't reveal who the stranger is. But guys/gals, it's clearly still Gandalf. The hope that these writers would do anything else is futile.

[quarks]

45 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

So Galadriel knew the crest of the king of the south lands off the top of her head, but had no idea that the line had been broken a 1000 years ago?! Sure writers, sure.

I thought she saw the crest when she was visiting Elendil's library back in episode 3?

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

And did you really have to leave us all wondering what happened to Isildur's poor horse? The wisest, noblest character on the show so far and you just leave him running towards a volcano. Sniffle.

The horse was in the camp.  Elendil saw it and thought for a moment that Isildur was leading it.  So no fears, the horse survived.

[moonshine71]

19 hours ago, WritinMan said:

I almost pulled a muscle cringing so hard at the Fiona Apple song at the end.

💯

[moonshine71]

17 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Well, that was a lot!

So, the Cultists were after the Stranger because thy thought he was Sauron this entire time.  But in the end, he isn't.  Instead he is a... wizard that is good.  Yep, I'm about 90% sure I know who he really is, but I guess there could always be a surprise in store for that particular revelation.

Instead, it was Halbrand that was Sauron this entire time.  Definitely some amusing irony that he was under Galadriel's nose this entire time, despite her being so gung-ho to catch him.  But thanks to some mind-trickery, he's already escaped and heading to Mordor.  Already dawned on a black cloak and a little bit of eyeliner too!  Bad guy doing bad guy stuff!

Weird that we got so little Numenor stuff this go around, and we didn't even check in on the dwarves or Arondir/Bronwyn before we head off for what is probably going to be a two year gap before the next season.

Those were some nice looking rings, at least.

I know I shouldn't be comparing this to the films, but they clearly want me to look at Nori and Poppy's relationship as this show's version of Frodo and Sam and it was nowhere close to that level.

Overall, I did think these last few episodes were better than the first half and I'll definitely be back, but I'm still surprised that I didn't enjoy this as much as I thought I would.  It had a lot going for it; the acting, the scenery (bummed that production is apparently moved to the U.K. now, which means no more New Zealand!), the effects, etc.; but for some reason it never was able to reach its full potential.  Maybe it will fare better next season.

I'm really confused at how they melted all the gold, silver, and mithril together in one big pot, poured it into molds to make the rings, and somehow 2 came out gold and 1 silver... 🤔 

Also, it really feels like they should have an awful lot of this magical alloy left over to make something else with.

Nori and Poppi did nothing for me at all.

[shrewd.buddha]

I find this show to be mentally exhausting.  The show runners decide on an end-point, then force the characters to get there despite any logical circumstances.  (Galadriel bringing only a 'severely injured' Halbrand to the Elves, on horseback.  Did she say it was a six-day ride with no rest?!) 
I'm writing this show off as badly-written television and not worth giving too much attention to.  
The Higher-Ups will need to do A LOT of rehauling to fix its problems, which are at the fundament plot/writing level (visuals are great).

So, that tiny bit of mithril is going to save the Elf Tree and all the Elves in Middle-Earth?  But its power doesn't work until it is mixed with gold and silver and shaped into a ring??  Does someone have to actually wear the ring for the power to start the healing process???

Nori and the MeteorMan versus The Twisted Sisters seemed pretty straightforward.  There seemed to be actual magic happening.
But only the Harfoot guy, Sadoc, gets injured?? (Not even a cut or burn for the others.)
And Nori does not bother to ask if Meteor Man can help Sadoc??  Maybe it is not his type of magic, but he managed to bring an entire apple orchard back to life a day or so earlier.   ... but everyone sits and wistfully waits as Sadoc dies -- no attempt, at all, to stop the bleeding..

Galadriel figures out that Halbrand is Sauron.  She has the chance to have him captured - or at least try.  But the show runners want to have a hallucination/seduction scene, so Galadriel confronts him alone.  

This entire first season seems to have been about Sauron attempting to seduce a very naïve  (thousand-year-old) Galadriel into being his queen.
And Galadriel spends the season encouraging Halbrand/Sauron to return to Middle-Earth , use his 'power' and lead his people. Ha ha.
I suppose that is supposed to be tragically funny? Wouldn't the LotR Galadriel mention her part in Sauron's rise to power? 
I had thought that Halbrand would be like Meteor-Man:  he somehow did not realize that he was Sauron. But, nope..

Nobody thought it was odd that Halbrand jumped out of the sick bed so fast?? 
Why was Halbrand/Sauron so interested in helping his enemies forge Rings of Power?? His plan was still to be their ruler (with Galadriel at his side). 
Why would Galadriel not tell anyone that she had finally found Sauron (Halbrand)?  Embarrassment? They still had an opportunity to stop him, track him, maybe reduce the amount of eventual damage he would do. 

Bleh.. 

Edited October 15, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

She has the chance to have him captured - or at least try.  But the show runners want to have a hallucination/seduction scene, so Galadriel confronts him alone.  

They still had an opportunity to stop him, track him, maybe reduce the amount of eventual damage he would do. 

It is incredibly frustrating to watch shows where the plot can only work if the protagonists are dense.  Galadriel immediately went to chase Adar during the battle, but as you said, there was no urgency to catch up to Halbrand/Sauron before he got too far.  Celebrimbor didn't need her to stand around to forge the rings.  Halbrand's whole plot depended on Galadriel just believing that he was the king of the South Lands.  One could say Galadriel was so single-minded that she believed what she wanted to.  But Miriel and the other Numenoreans didn't ask for proof?  Gil-galad didn't even question anything.  We never saw Galadriel speak to him about the army that she promised Miriel.  There were no scholars in Eregion or among Gil-galad's advisors who would know the history of the South lands?  The rough outlines of this plot could have worked, but I agree that the path to the endpoint relied on plot convenience.  For all the visual beauty, there was very little worldbuilding of Eregion and Lindon.  All we got were the main characters interacting in front of a backdrop.  

[jane1978]

This was so terible! Everything in this finale was awfull. From plotting, through acting, to that horrible horrible song during the end credits. Honestly, if Amazon isn´t firing people left and right after this giant production fiasco I will be shocked. 

Why was Halbrand suddenly smirking in every scene like some C-movie villain? Why was Galadriel suddenly suspicious? Why he was sent healing to Celebrimbor forge in this giant elf city? Why there was like 5 different moment, where somebody says something and somebody else is like "OMG, heureka" during the ring manufacture scenes?

That fight between evil priests and not-Sauron had no continuity. The harfoots runs away and second after they are back at the scene. The mortally wounded guy forgets he is dying until the end of fight. The priest appeated and disappeared on a whim. And did the writers thought even for a second somebody will be fooled with the "Heil Sauron" intro? 

Of course, then we have the cold blooded harfoots, who could care less about Nori and her family, and their new leader, who wanted them to cast away and let die in atleast three different episodes, doing the longest goodbye scene in history of LOTR since the ROTK extended versions. It´s amazing how the writers are so full of themselves they actually believe we care about these characters so much people will not be bored to death with 10 minutes long goodbye.

And finally we have the pointless Elendil daughter continuing her neverending quest for a purpose, so she is magically there when the king dies and shows her the secret passage to the flashforward machine.

Atleast the sleeveless florist, her evil son and elvish stepfather were missing this time.

[peridot]

I really don't get why Galadriel didn't tell anyone that Halbrand was Sauron, or why she continued to move forward with the rings.  The way she smiled at the rings at the end, does that mean she's already corrupted by them?

Wouldn't the writing on the scroll have faded if it was in the water that long?

The creepy way that Halbrand was acting was pretty good.  I was cringing when he touched Galadriel's shoulder in the courtyard.

It was cool to see the Wizard turn the three cultists into shadow.  I guess they're the Wraiths from the movies?

I agree with the others, the goodbye scene with the Harfoots dragged on too long.

Edited October 15, 2022 by peridot

[shrewd.buddha]

I kept wondering why the writers would have Galadriel not tell anyone that Sauron was right there with them.  ..And now he knows their secrets..
But then it struck me: they are totally going for the secret, forbidden bad-boy romance. 
Maybe they thought the Star Wars' relationship of Rey and Kylo Ren, enemies who are soulmates, was a super popular model to follow. 
Maybe Galadriel will spend the next season trying to turn Sauron back to the light.. Maybe she will utter the words, "I believe there is still good in him." 
In the previous episode,  Galadriel admitted she  "had felt something" towards Halbrand  as she was chopping off Orc heads and promising a genocidal purge.  And Halbrand had felt something special, too.  

Too bad the good boys like Elrond are so boring and only interested in playing flutes and making jewelry.. wink wink .. 
Or maybe Galadriel has been corrupted and is under some type of wizardly thrall..  But these writers have shown that they are not capable of being subtle. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[Jodithgrace]

I didn’t think the Elves’ rings were evil in any way until Sauron makes the one ring to control them all. The dwarves and kings haven’t made theirs yet. Who else will get one besides Galadriel? 
 

So none of the Harfoot people though it a bit creepy to send Nori off with some strange man, even if he is “good” (self proclaimed) Though the goodbye was so long I was sure Nori became old enough to be on her own.
 

Mithril becomes the big thing for elves eventually. Do they have to wait for Durin daddy to die?  
 

[quarks]

5 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Nobody thought it was odd that Halbrand jumped out of the sick bed so fast?? 
Why was Halbrand/Sauron so interested in helping his enemies forge Rings of Power?? His plan was still to be their ruler (with Galadriel at his side). 

In terms of jumping out of his sick bed that quickly, Celebrimbor did ask - and Halbrand/Sauron quickly changed the subject. Shortly afterwards, we saw that he had manipulated Celebrimbor and twisted his mind, and was able to overcome Galadriel's mind to the point where he could give her visions/nearly get her drowned.

Between this and the fact that none of the characters seemed to question the, hey, wait, if he's sick enough to need Elvish medicine, why is he riding a horse - something picked up by at least 85 to 95% of the audience - I think Sauron may have been influencing/dominating their minds so that they wouldn't think it was odd that Halbrand jumped out of be so fast.

I also felt that Sauron was less interested in helping his enemies forge Rings of Power and more just interested in getting the Elves to forge Rings of Power for him. And his one real interest, other than dominating the world, does seem to be forging things. Which, you know, I can get. Even evil overlords need a nice hobby.

13 hours ago, Haleth said:

The horse was in the camp.  Elendil saw it and thought for a moment that Isildur was leading it.  So no fears, the horse survived.

Right, but then the horse was like, yeah, I am SO NOT GOING TO NUMENOR, FOLKS, not after all that, so Elendil let the horse go and then the horse decided to rush right back towards the volcano.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I kept wondering why the writers would have Galadriel not tell anyone that Sauron was right there with them.  ..And now he knows their secrets..
But then it struck me: they are totally going for the secret, forbidden bad-boy romance. 
Maybe they thought the Star Wars' relationship of Rey and Kylo Ren, enemies who are soulmates, was a super popular model to follow. 
Maybe Galadriel will spend the next season trying to turn Sauron back to the light.. Maybe she will utter the words, "I believe there is still good in him." 
In the previous episode,  Galadriel admitted she had "had felt something" towards Halbrand  as she was chopping off Orc heads and promising a genocidal purge.  And Halbrand had felt something special, too.  

Too bad the good boys like Elrond are so boring and only interested in playing flutes and making jewelry.. wink wink .. 
Or maybe Galadriel has been corrupted and is under some type of wizardly thrall..  But these writers have shown that they are not capable of being subtle. 

This got me thinking about that "superfan" spot where one of them said Sauron was "hot" and could be fixed.  Those things were entirely scripted, so it's a good sign we're going to see your idea come to pass. 

A modern re-imagining, this is.  

[dovegrey]

As a general comment on why Galadriel didn’t reveal Sauron’s identity, Sauron explicitly laid out why: given that Galadriel was already “thrown out” once (for losing a few Elves and being really annoying about finding Sauron), what would happen if the Elves find out she not only allied with Sauron but singlehandedly brought him back to Middle Earth - and to power? He said it during the raft dream; it made her cry. Earlier than that, as Halbrand, Sauron flat-out told her, in this episode, that she was solely responsible for saving his life, helping him get out of his “I’m done” rut, fighting his enemy for him, and elevating him back to power - and that he would make sure everyone knew about her role in that. Sauron learned her fear and used it to control her.

In addition to that, I wouldn’t buy it from her character - as arrogant and short-sighted as she has been AND as traumatized as she must be by what's happened with Halbrand - if she humbly went to Gil-Galad and admitted what she had done for/with Sauron, which all started when she disobeyed Gil-Galad by jumping off the ship to Valinor. For the time being, since “Halbrand” is gone, she thinks she can mitigate whatever influence he’s left by making three rings instead of two; that sounds about right from this version of her character, who thinks she knows all. And making the rings are apparently the only way to save the Elves, so... 🤷‍♂️

I liked the show overall but think the writers/showrunners took for granted that it’s LoTR, as in… It’s an “epic” story because it’s LoTR, not because it’s a masterblend of storylines and characters that weaved into a genuinely epic show. I get the distinct sense that they thought the audience would handwave sloppy writing, poor pacing, and nonsensical timing/geography because it has LoTR in the title. I hope the showrunners take some feedback and make a tight season 2 that elevates season 1. And, while I'm looking forward to where these characters and stories go in season 2, I'm not lamenting that the next season is a long time away, which means it didn't emotionally "hit" for me.

[MJ Frog]

On 10/14/2022 at 5:01 AM, Glade said:

If Amazon doesn't have the rights to Gandalf, then this could still be one of the blue wizards. 

This is what I am hoping he is, which would make the most sense given that he is going east, and given that the Blue Wizards are the first to enter Middle Earth by some accounts. Although Saruman spent time in the east as well.

[Glade]

22 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

This is what I am hoping he is, which would make the most sense given that he is going east, and given that the Blue Wizards are the first to enter Middle Earth by some accounts. Although Saruman spent time in the east as well.

Yes, I read at one point that Amazon is forbidden from using 3rd age characters (which is when Gandalf/Saruman/Radaghast came to Middle Earth together) but the blue wizards are sometimes said to have come to Middle Earth in the 2nd age.  And amazon might be waiting to name The Stranger because the names of the blue wizards are in material they don't have the rights to either. 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 10/15/2022 at 11:26 PM, peridot said:

It was cool to see the Wizard turn the three cultists into shadow.  I guess they're the Wraiths from the movies?

The ring wraiths shouldn't exist yet, because the 16 lesser rings don't exist yet. Of course the elven rings were smithed long after the 16 lesser rings in existing canon, but these writers don't care about that.

On 10/16/2022 at 2:37 AM, quarks said:

Between this and the fact that none of the characters seemed to question the, hey, wait, if he's sick enough to need Elvish medicine, why is he riding a horse - something picked up by at least 85 to 95% of the audience - I think Sauron may have been influencing/dominating their minds so that they wouldn't think it was odd that Halbrand jumped out of be so fast.

Or it was just crappy writing. Considering what the writers have shown so far, I'm going with that one.

He also really shouldn't be able to influence elves so easily.

Even with the the one ring amplifying Sauron's power, the elves had enough resistance to be able to take their rings off, before he could control them. Without the one ring Sauron should stand no chance against elves. They aren't humans. Something these writers don't seem to get either.

This is all information one can glean from the movies, btw. So I think it's fair game here.

On 10/16/2022 at 3:32 AM, dovegrey said:

As a general comment on why Galadriel didn’t reveal Sauron’s identity, Sauron explicitly laid out why: given that Galadriel was already “thrown out” once (for losing a few Elves and being really annoying about finding Sauron), what would happen if the Elves find out she not only allied with Sauron but singlehandedly brought him back to Middle Earth - and to power? He said it during the raft dream; it made her cry. Earlier than that, as Halbrand, Sauron flat-out told her, in this episode, that she was solely responsible for saving his life, helping him get out of his “I’m done” rut, fighting his enemy for him, and elevating him back to power - and that he would make sure everyone knew about her role in that. Sauron learned her fear and used it to control her.

In addition to that, I wouldn’t buy it from her character - as arrogant and short-sighted as she has been AND as traumatized as she must be by what's happened with Halbrand - if she humbly went to Gil-Galad and admitted what she had done for/with Sauron, which all started when she disobeyed Gil-Galad by jumping off the ship to Valinor. For the time being, since “Halbrand” is gone, she thinks she can mitigate whatever influence he’s left by making three rings instead of two; that sounds about right from this version of her character, who thinks she knows all. And making the rings are apparently the only way to save the Elves, so... 🤷‍♂️

Except Galadriel isn't a 20-something woman. She is thousands of years old. She has been through a lot. She should be a lot wiser by now and recognise that her personal feelings and sense of shame aren't even a spec of dust compared to the danger Sauron poses for all of middle earth.

That's the problem with casting a thousands of years old elf as your main character. You can't write the usual tropes without it coming off as increadibly forced and unrealistic.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Except Galadriel isn't a 20-something woman. She is thousands of years old. She has been through a lot. She should be a lot wiser by now and recognise that her personal feelings and sense of shame aren't even a spec of dust compared to the danger Sauron poses for all of middle earth.

That's the problem with casting a thousands of years old elf as your main character. You can't write the usual tropes without it coming off as increadibly forced and unrealistic.

Galadriel is shown in flashbacks to have been bullied and misunderstood by the other elf children. While thousands of years in a genteel elf environment may have helped her refine her social skills, we are given to believe she didn't have this, because of the war. The death of Finrod would have been key, traumatic and combined with the death of many other elves and her homeland. She has been very focused on something that took up all of her time. She is friends with Elrond, who is a Herald. His strengths involve communicating with difficult people. Does she have any other friends? Not really. Some comrades in arms, of course, but it is unlikely she fraternized outside of war.

We don't know where Celeborn fit in, but it sounds as if they also were comrades in war, and she believes him dead. It is possible they didn't have anything like a normal romance, given the times.

So, yes, Haldbrand the serpent would find it fairly easy to get her to reach for the low hanging fruit.

I'm not sure that living a long time makes you a different person.

I think she is aware of the danger Sauron poses, none more aware of that danger. But she might feel the elves would cast her out if they found out her failure.

[dovegrey]

Galadriel ignored everything Halbrand said about himself (looting bodies, not being a king, being evil, wanting to stay lost), insisted he was a king, ignored his every protest against returning to Middle Earth, ignored his apology for killing her brother and being evil, named him King of the Southlands, then escorted him directly to the Elves, and then whined about him DECEIVING her. Whether she’s 20 or 2000, she appears to be thicker than a full volume of Tolkien works, and dangerously arrogant in her approach to just about everything she encounters given her power and standing. I don’t see the Elves just shrugging and saying Sauron was going to Sauron anyway; Gil-Galad tried to get rid of her to specifically avoid her accidentally bringing darkness/evil back to Middle Earth. By not admitting what happened and identifying Halbrand as Sauron, she’s hoping that’s what the Elves conclude, though, I’m sure, once Sauron starts making trouble. (Look - she was right all along!)

At this point in the show canon, Sauron didn’t appear to have a plan, other than to stay away from Middle Earth. Enter Galadriel. I find her to be the least sympathetic main character I’ve watched in a long time. I don’t trust the writers enough to be hopeful for a convincing redemption or development arc. I’m sure season 2 will be her going on about how she was “deceived” by Sauron’s “lies.”

Edited October 17, 2022 by dovegrey

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Galadriel is shown in flashbacks to have been bullied and misunderstood by the other elf children. While thousands of years in a genteel elf environment may have helped her refine her social skills, we are given to believe she didn't have this, because of the war. The death of Finrod would have been key, traumatic and combined with the death of many other elves and her homeland. She has been very focused on something that took up all of her time.

You say it yourself. That was all thousands of years ago. Can you even fathom how long a thousand years are? World War two was less than 80 years ago, for comparison.

That she supposedly hasn't learned anything in those thousands of years is the bad writing, plain and simple.

16 minutes ago, dovegrey said:

Whether she’s 20 or 2000, she appears to be thicker than a full volume of Tolkien works, and dangerously arrogant in her approach to just about everything she encounters given her power and standing. I don’t see the Elves just shrugging and saying Sauron was going to Sauron anyway; Gil-Galad tried to get rid of her to specifically avoid her accidentally bringing darkness/evil back to Middle Earth. By not admitting what happened and identifying Halbrand as Sauron, she’s hoping that’s what the Elves conclude, though, I’m sure, once Sauron starts making trouble. (Look - she was right all along!)

So what if it's her fault (which I don't agree with). She is old enough to know what Sauron is and that her honour is nothing against stopping him. Something she would have agreed with all throughout the season. But suddenly that's seemingly not that important anymore.

Edited October 17, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

You say it yourself. That was all thousands of years ago. Can you even fathom how long a thousand years are? World War two was less than 80 years ago, for comparison.

That she supposedly hasn't learned anything in those thousands of years is the bad writing, plain and simple.

So what if it's her fault (which I don't agree with). She is old enough to know what Sauron is and that her honour is nothing against stopping him. Something she would have agreed with all throughout the season. But suddenly that's seemingly not that important anymore.

Well, you can't understand what it is like to live thousands of years, nor could Tolkien or Anne Rice, or Neil Gaiman. Pretty fantastic, right? The conceit allows people to think about things they wouldn't normally be able to experience. Would people overcome their traumas and become moral people, given ten thousand years of practice? The Comte St Germain became an increasingly good person, the Anne Rice vampires didn't. But I do know that some people will stagnate for 80 years, doing the same thing over and over, like an animated wall bonker, and then die.

In Galadriels case I think she has learned a lot, most of it about fighting, obscure languages, and how many kegs of lembas you need for a four month journey by sea. The idea that there may be some good in Sauron may be a revolutionary idea for her. She does trust her instincts, having few other people to trust, maybe she will test the limits of that goodness.

[dovegrey]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

So what if it's her fault (which I don't agree with). She is old enough to know what Sauron is and that her honour is nothing against stopping him. Something she would have agreed with all throughout the season. But suddenly that's seemingly not that important anymore.

And, canonically, unless there’s a retcon next season, she is hiding Saurons’s identity/location, and her role - however it’s framed - in championing Sauron, escorting Sauron back to Middle Earth, and naming him a King despite having no idea if there even was a king (😂). I certainly fault her for hiding his identity and continuing with his plan to forge the rings, with no Elf the wiser. I don’t know what her age has to do with her onscreen characterization, actions, and storyline - yes, she should be more mature and selfless, but she’s not on this show. 🤷‍♂️ The only Galadriel I’ve seen is one who is impulsive, selfishly narrow minded, shortsighted, and, as even Elendil noted in episode 3, palpably more immature than his kids. “Noble” and “selfless” are not two words I’d use for her on this show (not saying you did). 

[blackwing]

I'm really late to the party, but I've been really putting off watching this show, and finding excuses to find anything else to watch.  Finally ran out of excuses and just finished the season.

On 10/14/2022 at 1:49 AM, Camera One said:

I will watch the next season, but I would also not care too much if the series was cancelled.  Whenever there was an effective visual, my next thought was what a shame the writing and the story was so subpar that I couldn't get myself to feel emotionally moved by any of it.

On 10/15/2022 at 8:28 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

I find this show to be mentally exhausting.  The show runners decide on an end-point, then force the characters to get there despite any logical circumstances.  (Galadriel bringing only a 'severely injured' Halbrand to the Elves, on horseback.  Did she say it was a six-day ride with no rest?!) 
I'm writing this show off as badly-written television and not worth giving too much attention to.  
The Higher-Ups will need to do A LOT of rehauling to fix its problems, which are at the fundament plot/writing level (visuals are great).

Overall, I can't say I enjoyed the season.  I loved the visuals, which were amazingly impressive, but the storyline was terrible.  I thought there were too many storylines, too many characters, and I fully admit to not really understanding what was going on some of the time.

The Harfoot journey was tedious and boring.  Oh ok, that guy is probably Gandalf, but it didn't make the Harfoot journey any more interesting.  I also didn't care about Isildur.  Or Theo and his mom and Arondir.  Or that elf/orc Adar.

I did enjoy Elrond and Durin but did not enjoy the endless discussion about the mithril, or the king denying Elrond.

Galadriel trying to find Sauron and then finally realising he's been under her nose the whole time... that's what I would have focused the story on.

I honestly am not sure if I will be back for a second season.  I also thought there would be a lot more magic involved.  Apart from a few bursts of flame from Maybe-Gandalf and some magic from the evil shapeshifters, there just wasn't a whole lot.  Doesn't Galadriel have magic?  She didn't seem to use any of it at all in this series.

[astrohip]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:25 PM, Brn2bwild said:

The Stranger is so Gandalf, I would laugh if he turned out to be Saruman. And suddenly he's fully fluent in the harfoots' language? With am elegant accent no less?

 

On 10/14/2022 at 1:27 AM, Harvey said:

And why did the guy who is now confirmed to be proto-Gandalf learn to speak fluently in 3 seconds? Soooo stupid.

The three evils said they were removing the veil that wrapped his mind, from his "space travels". Once they removed it, he was fully literate.

I just rewatched this last episode last night, and caught them saying that. 

 

 

 

On 10/15/2022 at 2:57 PM, jane1978 said:

Why was Galadriel suddenly suspicious?

She heard Celebrimbor say the exact same phrases as Adar, about Sauron trying to harness power over men. It was too coincidental, and sparked her concern.